The CIA

[Osman Ghazi]

I was watching The Recruit the other day and in it at 'The Farm' (CIA Training Center), Al Pacino says something to the effect of 'Your here because you believe in good, in doing what is right. Because you believe in America' or some patriotic bullshit like that. It made me fucking sick.

All the cappies in this forum routinely attack the USSR, Cuba etc. because they have/had repressive police forces to subdue their people. Well if America is so great, how come they need their own secret police force whose only job has been to eliminate supposed enemies of the people. How are they any different from the NKVD? Other than the fact that the NKVD didn't intervene in the affairs of other nations as much, of course. :D

[!!~rizo~!!]

:ph34r:

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 31 2004, 08:57 PM
I was watching The Recruit the other day and in it at 'The Farm' (CIA Training Center), Al Pacino says something to the effect of 'Your here because you believe in good, in doing what is right. Because you believe in America' or some patriotic bullshit like that. It made me fucking sick.

All the cappies in this forum routinely attack the USSR, Cuba etc. because they have/had repressive police forces to subdue their people. Well if America is so great, how come they need their own secret police force whose only job has been to eliminate supposed enemies of the people. How are they any different from the NKVD? Other than the fact that the NKVD didn't intervene in the affairs of other nations as much, of course. :D
The CIA rarely arrests, much less tortures and kills U.S. citizens. When it comes to covert operations however, the suffering they have caused is unmatched probably by any other living group.

[Y2A]

LuZhiming has a point. And some "cappies" such as JFK were against the CIA and called for there end. Your a fool if you think capitalists are naturally for the CIA. I am personally against it.

[BuyOurEverything]

Your a fool if you think capitalists are naturally for the CIA.

I don't think that was really his point. One of the central points of any argument against a country in the US is that they have a brutal 'secret police' that keeps its citizens in line. OG's point was that the CIA is just that, however, most Americans don't see it as such.


The CIA rarely arrests, much less tortures and kills U.S. citizens.

There's no way to possibly know if that's true or not.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 12:18 AM
There's no way to possibly know if that's true or not.
Don't give me that bullshit, the atrocities of secret police in every other country are always found out by Human Rights groups, the U.S. would be no different.

[BuyOurEverything]

Don't give me that bullshit, the atrocities of secret police in every other country are always found out by Human Rights groups, the U.S. would be no different.

You're kidding right? You think that Amnesty International has access to Top Secret CIA documents?

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 03:37 AM
You're kidding right? You think that Amnesty International has access to Top Secret CIA documents?
You are completely ignoring what I said. You don't have to have access to top secret documents to find out about secret police attacks. Again, do you think the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein, Suharto, or the Salvadoran military told Human Rights groups that they had secret police? Of course not. The CIA would not be any different.

[LuZhiming]

This is somewhat off-topic, but one could give an arguement that the FBI are often secret police. Especially under the Reagan administration, they took actions to attempt to arrest Catholic Bishops and nuns as well as Salvadoran refugees that they brought in, for being "Communist guerillas." Everyone knew that was absurd, the reason was largely because the Salvadorans knew how the U.S. was sending weapons to forces that turned El Salvador into a torture chamber. That is only one case, and there have been others. But one shouldn't exagerate on this, it isn't anything like secret police in most other countries.

Although I want to say that doesn't necessarily make the U.S. much better. The U.S. just relies more on indoctrination, rather than brutality to suppress dissent.

Also one shouldn't forget the various typical policemen who have been secret police in all but name -- especially during the Civil Rights Movement where they targeted Blacks.

[Loknar]

The CIA is by no means comparable to the NKVD because they are in 2 different lines of work. The CIA is equivalent to the KGB.

and btw, CIA an KGB were/are equally as treacherous.

[Osman Ghazi]

The KGB didn't interfere in as many countries as the CIA did, or as often.

But yes, the NKVD is more comparable to the FBI than the CIA.
The FBI does have it a lot easier than the NKVD had it though, because more people are willing to believe that the people the FBI arrest are actually criminals.
Either way however, people do not condone the actions of the KGB but they are more than willing to condone the crimes of the CIA because they are committed for the 'right reasons'.

PS: Y2A IMO, you are not a cappie but a capitalist in that your arguments are based on knowledge and rationality rather than on blind, unquestioning belief like the cappies.

LuZhiming, i think that the CIA probably has a thousand secrets that no one will ever find out about because they are more 'behind the scenes' and work through middlemen unlike most secret police forces.

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 1 2004, 08:59 PM
The KGB didn't interfere in as many countries as the CIA did, or as often.
.
This is not true, the sovs and us are equally as treacherous. and the KGB had france and britain infiltrated quite nicely.

[synthesis]

I thought the FBI handled domestic affairs, while the CIA handled foreign affairs.

[Stapler]

The CIA is responsible for the deaths of many politicians in Latin America who wanted to nationalize American interests, needless to say, most of those who didn't want to were either military dictators installed by the CIA, or corrupt. Remember Nicaragua?

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 11:16 PM
The CIA is responsible for the deaths of many politicians in Latin America who wanted to nationalize American interests, needless to say, most of those who didn't want to were either military dictators installed by the CIA, or corrupt. Remember Nicaragua?
And the soviets hands are clean?

[LSD]

And the soviets hands are clean?

Clean? Not even close.
But the CIA did tend to be more activist than the KGB.

That is they tended to act while the KGB tended to inform. That is not to say the KGB never acted, but as a general rule they were far more informative than the CIA.

But they are both examples of criminal organizations which should never have been allowed to exist.
One down....

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid Dieth[email protected] 2 2004, 01:43 AM

And the soviets hands are clean?

Clean? Not even close.
But the CIA did tend to be more activist than the KGB.

That is they tended to act while the KGB tended to inform. That is not to say the KGB never acted, but as a general rule they were far more informative than the CIA.

But they are both examples of criminal organizations which should never have been allowed to exist.
One down....
I agree.


I think the KGB is still around, more as an underground operation, splintered.

[Urban Rubble]

Your comparison of the CIA and the NKVD is completely invalid.

The CIA is not supposed to get into domestic affairs, they are supposed to be strictly a (foreign) intelligence gathering unit. Of course, they have meddled in domestic issues at times, like the infiltration of the CPUSA and the infiltration of Civil Rights organizations (to keep the commies from taking over), but they have actually somewhat been kept in line as far as messing with domestic issues. Foreign issues are a completely different matter.

I think it was Kennedy who said that he didn't want the CIA to become some sort of American secret police.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 2 2004, 06:03 AM
I think it was Kennedy who said that he didn't want the CIA to become some sort of American secret police.
Yeah, Kennedy didn't want anyone terrorizing the people better than he could.

[Osman Ghazi]

What exactly would the KGB be doing?
Maybe they have become part of the Russian Mafia but not as their own group certainly. CIA has been involved in domestic affairs but not as much as the People's Commisariat for Internal Affairs.

CIA is definately much worse than KGB though. They are much more active whereas KGB was mostly in the intelligence biz. That isn't to say they didn't intervene at all, just not as much as CIA.