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Rafiq
24th June 2014, 18:02
And so, Rafiq, the internet hardman, the r-r-revolutionary Marxist of the caesarotsipraist persuasion, the SPUSA member, is revealed to be a common Menshevik. Lister to this: capitalism is not reactionary, nonetheless there are reactionary states. Perhaps, then, these states need some "capitalist development", courtesy of some local Maysky or Zhordania - or some "nice" form of capitalism, contrary to "reactionary capitalism", presided over by some proletarian Kaiser, pardon, Kaisar.

And yes, father Rafiq, the Old Believers were pretty much a backwoods cult, although there were prominent Old Believer industrial-capitalist families. Therefore - Old Believers are bourgeois degenerates and Lenin and Bonch-Bruevich (not to mention Dzerzhinsky himself) were bourgeois degenerates for defending them against the "not reactionary" Tsarist state.


As a result of 870's predictable inability to address, confront or challenge the inarguable truth with regard to his own petty bourgeois intellectual foundations, he would instead of defending the attacks made against him, attempt to in his own cute little way vivisect me.


caesarotsipraist persuasion, the SPUSA member,


870 calls my Marxism distinctly "Caesarotspsiprast" as other users have slandered me in similar ways. It is difficult to respond to, as he pulled it directly out of his ass. I challenge him to find, dig up posts of mine that would in any way indicate I am follower of Tspiprast or a Caesarean socialist. He cannot. We can see clearly how appeals to fantasy are his only means at trying to retain any sort of legitimacy here. 870 attempts to paint me with a brush he pulled out of his ass, according to him I am a reformist, according to him my politics are concurrent with that of the SPUSA's. I have countlessly spoken of my opposition to the politics of the SPUSA, and that of it's members - that my own membership was simply a result of my desire for discussion with leftists outside of the internet. Why then, while knowing this, does the apologist and mouthpiece of politicized pedophilia resort to such petty slander and baseless attacks? Well, a simple look at the post I made is evidence enough of the fact that my points go unchallenged. http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2763462&postcount=256 This cultist rodent seriously, honestly and wholly believes he can challenge the impenetrable, invincible and merciless truth of Marxism with his crypto-role playing petty bourgeois rhetoric. While deciphering and exposing their petite bourgeois ideological tendencies, like cornered rats they can only resort to what appears to be vicious attacks. And let them, they are rats all the same.

And what is the nature of such worthless rhetoric?


And yes, father Rafiq, the Old Believers were pretty much a backwoods cult, although there were prominent Old Believer industrial-capitalist families. Therefore - Old Believers are bourgeois degenerates and Lenin and Bonch-Bruevich (not to mention Dzerzhinsky himself) were bourgeois degenerates for defending them against the "not reactionary" Tsarist state.


Contrary to the reactionary, degenrate postmodern petty bourgeois cults of whom organizations like the Sparts aim their support, the Old Believers were not a 'backwoods cult'. They were a religious minority that had existed since the 17th century who had faced persecution by the Tsarist church, who were in themselves an entity waiting to be politicized. This is quite different from American militias, which formed as a response to further capitalist development and the evolution of liberalism. In all his philistine ignorance, he attempts to make an analogous connection to the Russian equivalent of the protestant movement to anti social, reactionary petty bourgeois cults. It is no wonder, though. He is after all a member of the Spartacist League, which are themselves a cult of the same nature, a la Jim Jones. A quick Google search on the nature of the Spartacit League would reveals this to everyone. But of course 870 desperately attempts to make it as though such an accusation is leveled without base, as if I'm pulling it out of my ass. No, it is very well known that they are a cult, and even those who refuse to label them as such recognize they have frightening cultish tendencies. The Spartacist league, a mere postmodern club, is organized and structured to sustain the membership of those few of 'advanced' consciousness, i.e. Students who think of Communism is a trend and so on. Does he honestly, truly believe this organization could ever exist as a mass movement? Or does he take comfort in knowing they will never achieve legitimacy, so he can hide safely within the confines of their eternal opposition and protest against the 'external' world. Only within the confines of this little 'society' or club are it's members safe from the 'excesses of bourgeois propaganda' and the 'poison' of capitalist society, Communism for then does not derive from existing conditions, with bourgeois society as a presupposition for it's own development, for them Communism is the name they gave their petite bourgeois opposition to liberalism, which is reactionary in nature. A proletarian opposition to liberalism, conversely, recognizes that the achievements of liberalism are the presumption of it's own emancipation. Of course 870, with his philistine, childish way of thinking, will dismiss this as apologia of liberalism, perhaps he himself will accuse me of being a 'liberal' and tie this in with his ridiculous, baseless accusations of reformism (Is this not the pinnacle of ridiculousness, me, a reformist?). Of course we cannot expect him to admit to his own stupidity, to his own intellectual worthlessness. So let him bark like the petty bourgeois dog he is, let him bathe in his own ideological filth. He is a philistine, he will never understand what I'm talking about.

Let us, however, address some of the proclamations made forth by this theoretically adept Marxist


is revealed to be a common Menshevik. Lister to this: capitalism is not reactionary, nonetheless there are reactionary states. Perhaps, then, these states need some "capitalist development", courtesy of some local Maysky or Zhordania - or some "nice" form of capitalism, contrary to "reactionary capitalism", presided over by some proletarian Kaiser, pardon, Kaisar.


Ha, he got me! Of course Menshevism is distinguished by the acknowledgement of the existence of reactionary states! Damn, what a knot I am in now! I wonder how I'll get out of this one!

Such stupidity is beyond shocking. I begin to wonder whether I should give up entirely, whether I should let him actually go on believing this is a feasible argument. Then again, I cannot but admit I derive great enjoyment from thinking of read, powerlessly, of his own invalidity.

We cannot begin to decipher the contradictions of his post here. First, 870 accuses me of being a Third World Caesarean socialist. He then accuses me of being a Menshevik or a "reformist". However the whole point of DNZ formulating Third World Caesarean socialism was to solve the problem of socialism existing in backward, semi-feudal states without resorting to reformism or capitalist development. Whether this is correct or not is a different question, but we must assume that 1. He has no idea of what DNZ was trying to say 2. He has no notion of what being a Menshevik actually means or both - Perhaps he is fully aware that he is contradicting himself, perhaps this is a sort of desperation for him.

Can we even begin to reveal the complete irony that a fucking Trotskyist would accuse me of Menshevism? Trotsky, who was himself a Menshevik at heart until his death? Trotsky, whose Menshevism was completely and wholly present in his initial opposition to Stalin, in his liberalist intellectual foundations? The same Trotsky who was a Menshevik until it was opportune to join the champions of legitimacy?

But let us return to the root of the point, recognizing the existence of reactionary states, especially in this globalized capitalist order, according to 870, entails a sort of Menshevism. By this logic, Lenin himself was a Menshevik, who recognized more than anyone that compared to Western Europe, the Tsarist state was infinitely reactionary. All states which stand in opposition to the globalized development of capitalism and the hegemonic liberal order, from Iran to Milosevic's Serbia, from Saddam to North Korea, are wholly and distincitively reactionary states. They stand as the reactionaries existent within this global community of capitalist states.

While the Communists and reactionaries oppose hegemonic liberalism, there is a difference that Kautsky recognized (that Lenin wholly concurred with). While the proletariat opposes Liberalism, the proletariat opposes Liberalism while pre-supposing the achievements of Liberalism and capitalist development in it's struggle for emancipation. Such reactionary states, as well as the petty bourgeois classes of which 870, that cultist little shit identifies with, oppose the hegemonic order as reactionaries, who seek a revert to the 'old' times, in the case of the existing reactionary states like Russia, a more 'nationally independent' world, or in the case of petty bourgeois organizations like the Sparts, the 'good old times' when Communism still held legitimacy. They shun and despise the world as it has existed today, and seek to replicate tactics and strategies of a previous world, ideology which has no place in the world today. Hence their support for marginalized groups like NAMBLA, hence their support for reactionary militias.

But how can a worthless reactionary like 870 justify support for pedophiles if not by saying "READ DERR STUFF". I Don't need to read the texts of the ICLFLKSDJFLKSJDF-FL, this worthless Trotskyist sect among countless others, to know what they are. Fuck you for thinking that's worth anyone's time. These 'meta' ideological Communists, these 'cosmetic' reds, these reactionaries. What makes them different from any other reactionary militia? Absolutely nothing.


The rest of your post is predictably hilarious. Of course communists do not fight for communism because of some abstract idea of "freedom", which is why we do not support the doomed petite bourgeoisie when it comes to their economic fortunes (but father Rafiq, are you not yourself part of a group that supports the petite-bourgeoisie and their supposed need for a big, strong, macho Leader?), but at the same time we don't want to end up in some social-Stalinist concentration camp run by the likes of Rafiq and others I could mention. We recognise that the revolution has democratic as well as socialist tasks.


Look at how he speaks, he has no notion of the function of ideology, he cosmetically attempts to separate himself from the petite bourgeoisie by saying they are 'doomed', that in his fantasy revolution they will have no place. As Althusser has said, ideology does not say "I am ideology", and petite bourgeois ideologues does not say "I am a petite bourgeois ideologue". You can say whatever the fuck you want, you can fantasize about all of these abstract, baseless and worthless scenarios, but the truth is that you do so as a petite bourgeois ideologue who sympathizes with a petite bourgeois organization, a cult at best. It's so cute how you spout this so-called "Marxism", it's so cute how you tout the same nonsense any other New Left piece of shit boy scout does. You're worthless, 870. You're better off apolitical, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.

The difference with DNZ, by the way, is that rather than espousing petite bourgeois ideological rhetoric, he recognizes very adamantly of an alliance between the proletariat and the demographically dominant rural petty bourgeoisie cemented through a strong executive power in places where the proletariat is a demographic minority. But he recognizes this as petty bourgeois, he thinks strategically. And is this not the same thing the Bolsheviks had attempts to do, albeit without recognizing it? DNZ recognizes it for what it is.

But I dare you, you piece of shit, I dare you to go and find a single post made by me that would imply I strive for a "Big strong macho leader". All you're good for is touting baseless nonsense, these stupid stereotypical archetypes formulated by your own cult like understanding of Communism. What a waste of time you are.


Oh, and I don't think you could cite instances of the SL intruding on the personal lives of members. How could you, since you've admitted yourself that you haven't read anything by them?

Is this something they would broadcast and reveal to the 'external' world? Are you denying that the Spartacist League infringes on the personal lives of it's members, and has a hand in things such as marriage?

Devrim
24th June 2014, 18:33
...This cultist rodent seriously,...they are rats all the same...In all his philistine ignorance...his philistine, childish way of thinking...his own stupidity, to his own intellectual worthlessness. So let him bark like the petty bourgeois dog he is, let him bathe in his own ideological filth. He is a philistine, he will never understand what I'm talking about...Such stupidity is beyond shocking...a worthless reactionary ...this worthless Trotskyist sect...Fuck you for thinking that's worth anyone's time...you tout the same nonsense any other New Left piece of shit boy scout does. You're worthless, 870...you piece of shit...What a waste of time you are.

It is always good to see reasoned political discusion rather than personal abuse.

Devrim

Ele'ill
24th June 2014, 18:36
this thread should probably be closed, the OP invites a non-constructive flame filled discussion and there's too great a chance at this point that the thread will collapse into that, a good example of how not to begin a thread

Zoroaster
24th June 2014, 18:39
Screw this thread. I agree with Mari3l.

Five Year Plan
24th June 2014, 18:44
But it served the OP's purpose: getting the last word. Not that many people will bother with wading through the entire thing.

Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages
24th June 2014, 19:15
Isn't it petit bourgeois rather than petty bourgeois? Or is it like a UK English vs US English kind of thing?

Rafiq
24th June 2014, 19:31
But instead of conveying frustration, it appears PhoenixAsh, this quasi-anarchist worm is only good for inducing laughter.


* Anarchism holds that individual autonomy means that no other individual can have a hierarchical position over another and that individuals need to be protected from those who want to asssert hierarchical domination over others.

* Your insane diatribe that this is trumping the family's domination over children is a profound misunderstanding of the concept of autonomy and of the actual arguments which I am making.

* In fact it results in you defending the legal system which actually does trump the bourgeois family and propp laws which actually do ensure children are in fact property of the parents.


Although I had countless times before addressed this, actually, almost all of this whole post, let us do it again so this time, he'll perhaps think twice before recycling the same nonsense. If anything, Phoenix really has no idea whatsoever of how you cannot understand ideological tendencies by their self proclamations. He attempts to school me by, as if I'm fucking new to this, about the anarchist identity and what anarchists profess to think of their own politics. It's wholly abstract, it's worthless, it's just as worthless as saying you're "pro-freedom" or "pro-liberty". What does this really mean, applicably? for him, it means a defense of petty bourgeois values against the excesses of hegemonic state-liberalism, as expressed by his positions with regard to issues of the family and the role of the state. Now of course the bourgeois state protects the family, of course the bourgeois state attempts to reinforce the rule of the father, by means of the police among other organs. Of that there can be no doubt - that does not however mean there does not exist a reaction. The petite bourgeois ideologues ground their opposition to the state with regard to the family, because they hold that the state has no business in the family (just as they have no business with regard to their property) the family that had formed as a result of the social relationships to production, rather than the decrees of the state. Communists oppose the state because it does too much to defend the bourgeois family, it does not violate the 'autonomy' of the father enough.

And who the fuck are you to define such a vague word like 'autonomy'? Why is your definition supreme? It is not. Your politics are worthless, they are incoherent and meaningless. They are whatever the fuck you want them to be, they have no grounding in reality and can only existing in your abstract fantasy like scenarios. They are the veil which guises your petty bourgeois ideological foundations.


* Hugely ironic is that your attack on me as being petit-bourgeois is based on defending the concepts and morality of exactly that class: the petit-bourgeois. Not realizing the legal concepts originated there as well.


Phoenix, explain to me, even if these arguments are moral in nature, explain to me how precisely they are petite bourgeois. Phoenix does what most of the Left likes to do, he likes to utilize the word as a mere fucking slander with absolute no meaning. "The morality of exactly that class", he speaks! What cack! What utter nonsense! I grow very tired and bored of this unending bullshit, I profess I cannot even find a single thing in your whole post which contains an ounce of truth. As I told 870, abstain from politics Phoenix, you have no place in it. But even with more hilarity do we find his insightful declaration, that the laws of the bourgeois state have their origin in the interests and ideological values of the petite bourgeoisie.


* And even more ironic is your inclusion of my arguments stemming from morality when you are the one heavilly relying on morality yourelf in order to facilitate your attack on me. I have however never mentioned morality in any other sense than that bourgeois legal systems enforce petit-bourgeois and bourgeois morality and serve to enforce class society.


The poverty of Pheonix's intellectual politics is that he genuinely believes we can only accuse him of moralism if he openly declares that it is moralistic. Anarchism itself is entirely moralistic, I don't give a fuck of you recognize it or acknowledge it yourself, your opposition to the state and your apologia for pedophilia is completely and wholly moralistic. Do you even know what morals are? We 'ought' to be this, we 'ought' to be that. We oppose the bourgeois state, but only while presuming it's achievements in our own struggle. Conversely the petite bourgeoisie will oppose them, from the perspective of the reactionaries.


* Your assertion that not every action of the state should be opposed is questionable at best. But since I am not opposing actions of the state but the concept of the state and its legal system themselves make these arguments completely redundant and straw man arguments.

* Your argument, or at least your allusion, that challeging the state and its expressions is not revolutionary and in fact petit-bourgeois does make one wonder here what your actual revolutionary position is. So me arguing against class society and all its expressions and actually arguing against bourgeois and petit-bourgeois mentality is petit-bourgeois? When you yourself make a shiny case glorifying the state.


Oh yes, and how is to questionable? You have absolutely no conception of revolutionary politics, you have absolutely no notion of the character of the petite bourgeois class. What you also lack, unsurprisingly, is a coherent understanding of my argument in the first place. No one is criticizing you for challenging the state, the point is from what perspective, and in what way. Declaring that you oppose the petite bourgeoisie does not make you any less petty bourgeois.


* You are actually arguing for the state to wield more power against society. Of course you do this under the exuse of protecting children. You know...by the very same state which has no problems what so ever to allow exploitation of children, having them starve to death, bombing the shit out of them or subjecting them to incarceration and arbitrarily deciding they are actually adults when they consider a crime big enough.


Phoenix is actually arguing that he is making no moral arguments here. This right here is precisely petite bourgeois morality.


* You are also glorifying capitalism and the capitalist state. Because you know...not everything they do is bad. Really? Nobody said that. I know bourgeois class memembers who spend a considerable amount of their fortune gained through the exploitation of others (including children btw) towards charity. I know those who build schools (on land which their companies has poisoned) to repair some social wrongs (like those resulting from wars they support or withholding medical aid because it isn't profitable and such). Those actions aren't bad. That however doesn't mean we do not oppose the bourgeois class.

And finally, this is the most ridiculous argument of all. Among the things that are not to be opposed from the excesses of capitalist development, charity is not one of them. Charity is the reproduction and legitimization of oppression and the gross filth and poverty brought forth by existing relations. You seem to only be able to catagorize or understand things in terms of philistine morality, "charity" and "doing good". No, the point is that for example, when the state legalizes abortion this is not to be opposed, when the state creates laws against domestic abuse and violence, when the state is forced to create laws entailing women's rights, these are not to be opposed. There are many actions taken by the state which are opposed by the petty bourgeois reactionaries, opposing the state's actions simply for the sake of opposing the existence of the bourgeois state is wholly childish.

Five Year Plan
24th June 2014, 19:35
Rafiq, the old thread was closed for a reason. Do you remember what it was? Why start a new thread for the purpose of continuing the discussions that were taking place in that thread?

Rafiq
24th June 2014, 19:39
It is always good to see reasoned political discusion rather than personal abuse.

Devrim

It is reasoned political discussion, such personal attacks are only necessary in a discussion which constituted a complete personal attack against me. If anything, it is I which desperately attempts to create a reasoned political discussion out of the slanderous pile of nonsense leveled against me by the noted users.

And to be sure, this isn't about 'getting the last word' in. The thread was closed, and the discussion pertained to the nature of petite bourgeois ideology as well as the nature of Communist opposition towards the state. Now you can call me out for flaming and so on, and not engaging in respectful discussion, but as a discussion it is perfectly appropriate for the theory forum. The only thing that seems to be bothering people is the lack of respectful engagement here. I'm also arguing logically against the attacks put forward against me, of course I'm going to be frustrated. Not that I wish to make a big deal out of any of this, it's not as though I'm putting so much effort to make myself appear a certain way. I type, and as evident from my grammatical errors I do not revise much.

Geiseric
24th June 2014, 19:40
Phoenixash makes us look like liberals by claiming that our defense of AOC laws puts us in the same camp as the state. Unless he retracts his claims im on the same boat as rafiq.

Ele'ill
24th June 2014, 19:40
instead of doing this maybe you should go sit in a meadow somewhere and think about cupcakes and baby ducks

http://www.springdaleclinic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/3-Breathing-exercises-for-anxiety-and-wheezing.jpg


http://www.clinicalhypnotherapy-cardiff.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/breathing-diagram-psd1.jpg

Rafiq
24th June 2014, 19:40
Rafiq, the old thread was closed for a reason. Do you remember what it was? Why start a new thread for the purpose of continuing the discussions that were taking place in that thread?

The thread was closed because it was rather dramatic and almost completely about age of consent laws. This discussion, however, pertains to the petty bourgeois Left and the nature of proletarian opposition towards the bourgeois state vs. the opposition of the Petite Bourgeoisie.

Five Year Plan
24th June 2014, 19:42
Phoenixash makes us look like liberals by claiming that our defense of AOC laws puts us in the same camp as the state. Unless he retracts his claims im on the same boat as rafiq.

Is there a reformist entity whose decaying political carcass your rump "Fourth International" hasn't burrowed into and propped up as an obstacle to workers' revolution?

I figured that since this thread appears to be a free-for-all, I'd put in my two cents.

Tim Cornelis
24th June 2014, 19:43
What makes the multitude of Spart cults, petty bourgeois in character?

Five Year Plan
24th June 2014, 19:47
The thread was closed because it was rather dramatic and almost completely about age of consent laws. This discussion, however, pertains to the petty bourgeois Left and the nature of proletarian opposition towards the bourgeois state vs. the opposition of the Petite Bourgeoisie.

And your evidence for this? Age of consent laws. It's the exact same discussion, and you're restarting it against the express wishes of forum moderators.

Geiseric
24th June 2014, 19:50
What makes the multitude of Spart cults, petty bourgeois in character?

The fact that theyre bascally left academics who dont participate in organizing, and actually go out of their way to get other socialists expelled from unions. On top of that they defend NAMBLAs rights to nuclear pedophaelia.

Ele'ill
24th June 2014, 19:51
[email protected] everyone hovering over this thread waiting for shit to completely kick off. This thread should be closed, it is a bait thread, it could have been a PM, it was intentionally not made for any type of constructive discussion.

Tim Cornelis
24th June 2014, 19:52
The fact that theyre bascally left academics who dont participate in organizing, and actually go out of their way to get other socialists expelled from unions. On top of that they defend NAMBLAs rights to nuclear pedophaelia.

I don't see how that makes them petty bourgeois.

Geiseric
24th June 2014, 19:53
I don't see how that makes them petty bourgeois.

Isnt sexual oppression the epitome of bourgeois culture?

Inb4 claims that i want to oppress pedophiles

Sinister Intents
24th June 2014, 20:01
Like a trainwreck.... I'm with Mari3L on this

Rafiq
24th June 2014, 20:04
What makes the multitude of Spart cults, petty bourgeois in character?

It's an interesting topic in general. What I have put forward is that not only the Sparts, but a great bulk of the Left as it exists, post 68 is petty bourgeois in character. Since the early 20th century Marxists have spoken of the nature of the Petite Bourgeoisie's opposition to the hegemonic order, and that it is wholly reactionary. Kautsky had something useful to say about it which I think is just too relevant http://www.unz.org/Pub/KautskyKarl-1927-00157.

Basically, the Sparts among others are stuck in an ideological limbo - the present conditions are unable to host their ideological universe, as a result of this new capitalist development and further evolution of liberalism, and the logical result is to, as Kautsky had said, "retrace their steps". A great bulk of the Left today is then reactionary, in the same nature that the petite bourgeoisie is reactionary. They do not oppose the existing order from the premises now in existence, they oppose the existing order while seeking to revert from it's 'excesses'. As Camatte had himself believed directly, the class struggle to them had taken a new form by which it is simply a struggle between humanity and the existing order.

Rafiq
24th June 2014, 20:06
[email protected] everyone hovering over this thread waiting for shit to completely kick off. This thread should be closed, it is a bait thread, it could have been a PM, it was intentionally not made for any type of constructive discussion.

I had considered sending a private message, but I see no reason for this discussion to be limited between us. The harsh nature of my posts does not mean there is nothing meaningful to learn or discuss here.

Sinister Intents
24th June 2014, 20:09
I had considered sending a private message, but I see no reason for this discussion to be limited between us. The harsh nature of my posts does not mean there is nothing meaningful to learn or discuss here.

You do make harsh posts, but there is always something to glean from them for me despite the fact I disagree with you at times. I'm kinda glads its not a PM because it provides more opportunity to learn.

Ele'ill
24th June 2014, 20:15
I had considered sending a private message, but I see no reason for this discussion to be limited between us.

me either



The harsh nature of my posts does not mean there is nothing meaningful to learn or discuss here.

Then leave the 'harsh nature' (blatant flaming borderline out of control tantrum) out of your posts because it begs a return of the same thing and it more often than not becomes the centerpiece of the exchange.

Geiseric
24th June 2014, 20:18
If youre a leftist without a clear political program, with the goal of organizing the working class revolutionary party with methods in touch with reality, you are categorically a petit bourgeois socialist. Its the actual term marx used.

motion denied
24th June 2014, 20:22
If youre a leftist without a clear political program, with the goal of organizing the working class revolutionary party with methods in touch with reality, you are categorically a petit bourgeois socialist.

That's probably the most trotskyist thing I've ever read.

Sasha
24th June 2014, 20:24
And closed.


though maybe we should create a special subforum for rafiq and 870 to flame and hurl abuse and strawmen at each other.... Your spats read like a schizophrenic arguing against his own split personality.