ey, so Alaska

[Rusty Shackleford]

This shit is fucking awesome. Get a shitty job processing fish and when you got downtime do whatever. Word of wisdom though, don't go to Naknek. ever.

This thread is for Alaska stuff and stories about working out of state in cool places.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It is pretty great here. I was born here and I plan on dying here, love this state.

But yeah, stay away from Naknek. I wonder how the bay is doing this year, hopefully not well so we can get a little more money for our fish where I'm working :mad::lol: I don't have that many good stories regarding places like Naknek, but one of my friends who's worked out west has a bunch of entertaining anecdotes about how he's drank, snorted & screwed his way from Ketchikan to Sand Point.

My favorite story of his was that he once revived a drowned bald eagle using mouth-to-mouth resuscitation (or mouth-to-beak resuscitation, as it were)

god, I laughed just typing that...he told the story in such an earnest way that I totally believe him too LOL

[slum]

my friend and her gf are up there rn and i am so fucking jealous, have always wanted to work & live there

idk if i could deal with the dark seasons, tho. don't you guys get fucking depressed? please tell me there's a way to get around it i want to live my dream of flying a bush plane and eating fish and hardtack all day

[Rusty Shackleford]

Yeah right now I'm on in sitka on baranof island and I didn't realize this shit was a rain forest. Fucking awesome.

One guy was talking about how he was working dock at the plant and hopped on a forklift and he was driving and all of a sudden he plants the forks a quarter inch into concrete and this guy comes out from the building he hit and said 'yeah that thing doesn't have breaks' that and antics about a tote of guts spilling and drifting forklifts around corners...


But yeah naknek, I heard the tallest greet is maybe twenty feet, and the mosquitoes are the size of mosquito hawks. Fuck no.

[Lily Briscoe]

I don't understand how anybody can live there.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Southeast AK really isn't terribly different from the Pac Northwest USA. Just a lot less people, obviously.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

I'm afraid to go to Alaska. I don't like coldness and darkness. I'd feel too isolated. Drive through the states on a nice road trip? Nope, too bad fucker. Better have a passport to get into Canada or a boat or a plane, otherwise you're stuck here!

I feel like it's another world. What are the people like? What do people do for fun? Are there polar bears? I'm now interested in learning more about Alaska.

[M-L-C-F]

Yeah, I'd go fucking nuts living in Alaska. It's bad enough I live in flyover country already. Other than the bigger cities, middle America sucks. But Alaska? Fuck that shit. I'm sure it's beautiful in Alaska, like how the Upper Peninsula of Michigan is beautiful. However to me, it's a place to visit, not live. I've got nothing against a lotta the people in rural areas, but it's just not my sorta thing.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

What about bears? How consistent and or good is your weed? What if I don't like the cold? Do you really get money for moving there? I heard rumors. How's that work? That'd be cool to move, collect, fly south.

[Os Cangaceiros]

idk if i could deal with the dark seasons, tho. don't you guys get fucking depressed?

Yeah, we do, but it's never been that big of a problem for me personally.


What are the people like? What do people do for fun? Are there polar bears?

People in Alaska? Kind of like people everywhere else I guess. Politically it's a pretty unique state, though...it's not as overtly reactionary as other "red states". For fun? Well there's lots of outdoor activities, it's paradise if you like hiking, fishing, snowboarding, that kinda shit. Yes there are polar bears in the state.


What about bears? How consistent and or good is your weed? What if I don't like the cold? Do you really get money for moving there?

- yes there are bears
- I've smoked weed literally all over the USA and in Europe, and the best weed I've smoked in Alaska can go toe-to-toe with the best weed I've smoked anywhere else. People put an insane amount of pride and effort into growing the craziest, stoniest fuckin' weed you'll ever smoke. Also, for some reason there's a fair bit of good psychedelics in Alaska, I've found...good LSD, mescaline, psilocybin, that kind of thing...I think there are quite a few old hippy chemists up here. All other drugs are overpriced trash, though, generally speaking.
- if ya don't like the cold then don't come to Alaska!
- Yes, it's called the permanent fund dividend (PFD), but it's really not all that much money and you have to establish residency in the state

hopefully this has been informative

[DigitalBluster]

Why post just to shit on someplace you've never been? Anyway, what makes a place good to live is more about the people than the place. Take the best place you've ever been, replace all the people with the shittiest ones you've ever met, and that place will suck. Do it the other way around, and an otherwise shitty place becomes tolerable.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Also, for some reason there's a fair bit of good psychedelics in Alaska, I've found...good LSD, mescaline, psilocybin, that kind of thing...I think there are quite a few old hippy chemists up here. All other drugs are overpriced trash, though, generally speaking.


That's good to know. Sometimes I fantasize about saying "fuck it all", moving to Alaska, building my own house, hunting bears for a living, and wandering the tundra while fucked up on hallucinogens.

[Creative Destruction]

I kicked around the idea for a bit of buying one of those real cheap useless pieces of land to go there. But, I mean, I don't want to commit suicide anymore, so I dropped that idea.

Seriously, though, I would love to go to Alaska one day. I'd fucking love to live in an area where there are times when the sun doesn't come up at all. (Not joking. I'm a grump when the sun is out.)

[#FF0000]

Is it cheap to fly in/out of that state?

I imagine I'd be able to do that so long as I could fly to civilization every so often to see a show and do other civilized things.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I have to admit that my antisocial urges have made me consider living in Alaska

[Rusty Shackleford]

To south east Alaska you can get tickets under 400 no problem sometimes. But ak is social as shit!

[Rusty Shackleford]

I mean I operate a hoist unloading boats so I'm starting to get to know helps people and thewith three bars for 8000 people word gets around fast and faces get familiar quick

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

What's up with Alaskan dabs? Is there any Maoist groups in Alaska?

[Rusty Shackleford]

AFAIK there's a decent amount of seasonal workers who are lefties of various stripes but in sitka which is in the south east, there are no orgs. I've had chats and met close to a dozen

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

To south east Alaska you can get tickets under 400 no problem sometimes. But ak is social as shit!

I was thinking of all the parts of Alaska that are trees/polar bears/gaping open-cast mines tbh

[Rusty Shackleford]

Where there are polar bears, there won't be much In the way of trees. Call erect me if I'm wrong but that far north it's just tundra.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

as far as I know Alaska is big enough to have both bits with trees and bits with polar bears in.

[Lily Briscoe]

Southeast AK really isn't terribly different from the Pac Northwest USA. Just a lot less people, obviously.

Ugh

[Os Cangaceiros]

The trees in this state start to look really tortured the further north you go, until they stand about knee-high

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Alaskas can suck dis clitz until it gits a jack'n'box or carls jr, uncivilized barbarians of da norf

[Os Cangaceiros]

Alaska has Carls Jr. There's two of them in my city, in fact.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Alaska has Carls Jr. There's two of them in my city, in fact.

I find this pretty hard to believe man

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://wasillaalaskaby300.squarespace.com/storage/thumbnails/2737618-2087217-thumbnail.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=122549527 8042

believe it, bubba

[Rusty Shackleford]

Fuck where I'm at right now there isn't even a bank and the school is bigger than the police station lol. The biggest downside of not being in sitka or Juneau is nothing to do with your free time. AK is still pretty bad ass though. There is a gold mine in this area but it is subterranean.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Oh and os, how much is a western bacon cheeseburger there? $16?

[Devrim]

The biggest downside of not being in sitka or Juneau is nothing to do with your free time.

I have just looked up the two places you mention. They both sound terrible. I would really hate to live in a village. It must be even worse for you wherever you are if you think that places that small have life.

A few decades ago there was a programme on TV called 'Northern Exposure', which I think was trying to convince people that Alaska was cool. I’m with Marx and the stuff about 'the idiocy of rural life' on this one. I can thing of very few places I would rather not live.

Devrim

[Zukunftsmusik]

I could think of a few reasons to live a life in rural idiocy. I think Rusty Shackleford's problem with filling his time is due to him not being into stuff that regions like this are perfect for, as mentioned earlier in the thread: hiking, skiing (preferably cross country or mountain skiing) etc. If I had an ok job and time for this kind of stuff, I could imagine living in Alaska (or similar places) for at least a certain period. Having lived 99% of my life in the city, though, I'm prone to the comforts and priviliges this brings, so I wouldn't promise I could live in rural places for more than, say, a year. But I would enjoy that time.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Neither Sitka or Juneau are "villages". A village is a place like McGrath or somewhere similar, predominantly populated by Native Alaskans.

Northern Exposure was filmed in California, IIRC. I've never seen it, though.

I don't get what Marx's comments about the "idiocy of rural life" (which, if I remember currently, was borne out of his frustrations with the Chartist movement never catching on in the countryside) have to do with Alaska. It's borderline offensive, actually. Alaska in general has a fairly educated population, a relatively high percentage of college graduates, and a developed industrial core involved in extractive industries like petroleum, coal, timber and fisheries, as well as a large number of skilled vocational workers (welders, electricians, pipe fitters etc). Dropping a remark from the 19th century about the "idiocy of rural life" brings to mind imagery of illiterate peasants slogging around in pig crap, which makes absolutely no sense in the context of Alaska.

[Devrim]

Neither Sitka or Juneau are "villages". A village is a place like McGrath or somewhere similar, predominantly populated by Native Alaskans.

According to Wiki, urban Sitka, though what the term 'urban' means in this context is far from clear, has a population of 6,982. Where I live somewhere that small would be considered to be a village.


Northern Exposure was filmed in California, IIRC. I've never seen it, though.

I can understand shooting it in California. It was a TV production and they probably didn't have the budget to persuade actors to go somewhere as godforsaken as Alaska.


I don't get what Marx's comments about the "idiocy of rural life"

Precisely.


Devrim

[Os Cangaceiros]

According to Wiki, urban Sitka, though what the term 'urban' means in this context is far from clear, has a population of 6,982. Where I live somewhere that small would be considered to be a village.

Well, where I live that isn't considered a village.


I can understand shooting it in California. It was a TV production and they probably didn't have the budget to persuade actors to go somewhere as godforsaken as Alaska.

Somewhere in the pacific northwest USA would've been slightly more believable.


Precisely.


Precisely what? What am I not understanding here? Am I just too much of a rural country bumpkin to understand what you're trying to say?

[Os Cangaceiros]

The point I'm trying to make is that when you say something about the idiocy of rural life, well, it's a bit offensive and it denies agency to people who may have grown up in a rural environment, such as myself. Rural life is vastly different in various localities and to just broadly paint an area of the world as being mired in ignorance and stupidity, especially a part of the world that I've lived in for a very long time and have a little affection for, just doesn't sit well with me. That's just where I'm coming from.

It's perfectly fine to say that you think a place looks terrible and you'd never want to live there, I have no problem with that. But I've met more ignorant people in the urban areas I've lived in like New York than I have in Alaska (per capita) and I don't prattle on about the "ignorance of urban life".

[Devrim]

Well, where I live that isn't considered a village.

That's because you live in a middle of nowhere rural backwoods.


But I've met more ignorant people in the urban areas I've lived in like New York than I have in Alaska (per capita) and I don't prattle on about the "ignorance of urban life".

I don't think that it is about 'ignorant people' at all.


Precisely what? What am I not understanding here? Am I just too much of a rural country bumpkin to understand what you're trying to say?

It seems that way.


Rural life is vastly different in various localities and to just broadly paint an area of the world as being mired in ignorance and stupidity, especially a part of the world that I've lived in for a very long time and have a little affection for, just doesn't sit well with me.

I don't think the fact that you live there and have affection for it stops it being a rural backwater "mired in ignorance and stupidity". If it doesn't sit well with you, well I am sorry if you find it offensive, but basically if you go one about how wonderful this rural existence is, you can't be surprised when somebody says that it is a backward reactionary hole.

Devrim

[Zukunftsmusik]

Honestly, Devrim, I think you're coming off as really ignorant, even though I think you're just taking the piss. I don't think towns of 6.000+ can be considered "rural" at all (from someone not living in rural idiocy) - in fact that would even be categorised as a city where I come from (perhaps depending on a few factors). I think you're assuming a lot of things and then project that on something you don't know that much about.

(Os: FYI I was using "rural idiocy" ironically, yet I can see how my post still was ignorant/condescending/assuming)

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

http://wasillaalaskaby300.squarespace.com/storage/thumbnails/2737618-2087217-thumbnail.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=122549527 8042

believe it, bubba

Clearly this is fake because you can't see the Kremlin towers in the background and I have it on good authority (vis a vis your former governor, Premier Palin) that you can see Russia from Alaska. As acting warlord of your territory, I'm inclined to believe her.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Think of southeast Alaska as having a bunch of modestly sized outposts of humanity. Most of these spots aren't spread out and sitka certainly doesn't have a 'rural' feel its a fully functioning first class city. And I am quote fond of the California bay area and such but honestly this is a good break as well. Also its nearly physically impossible to accommodate millions of
F people in this region unless you wanted everything to become even more expensive to boot.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Where I'm at currently is small enough to be annoying though. I miss sitka dearly.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Devrim, come to Alaska and work in a plant, then quit it to start homesteading and go full Heidegger :lol:

[bricolage]

I really don't think somewhere with a population of 9,000 can be called a city. I looked up Anchorage's population and it's about the same as Southend in the UK - I think of Southend as pretty small and grim but then it's a seaside town in decline so obviously is gonna be really different to the capital of a state bigger than the entire UK. So I guess it's about perspective but for sure a population under 10,000 is pretty damn small is the scheme of things. But despite the fact I've always lived in big urban spaces and get creeped out when I'm not in a city (why would you want to be somewhere with no sirens?), I did always think Alaska seemed kind of cool. I used to think anyone from anywhere could just turn up there, get a job like that and make money but obviously that isn't the case. But then I saw some pictures of giant crabs that people ate there and I was like shit that looks good as well.

[M-L-C-F]

I'm sorry, but I'm inclined to agree with Devrim here. I've dealt with semi-rural and rural bullshit. Fuck that, I'd rather live in the fucking ghetto, than the boonies. At least down in the hood, it's somewhat predictable. Out in the sticks, you really can't predict how people are gonna be. I feel safer in the city of Detroit, than I do when I'm around those stupid rednecks.

Now, I'm not saying everyone's like that. But from what I've dealt with, it sure seems that way. I figure buttfuck nowhere is perfect for Maoists though. Since they orgasm over rural revolution. :lol:

[Rusty Shackleford]

For real though the only murders that I've heard of was when this dude capped half the police force in Hoonah a few years back. Then again there is only 4 cops buuuuuuut... Lol.

Man people are not dickish or have a pretense of being 'rugged' like those cowboy wannabes in L48 but yes there is some ignorance and or reactionary sentiment among some of the population, but that's how it is anywhere.

I don't think I've seen one set of 'truck nuts' or a single UFC/Tapoit shirt with stupid goatees to make for a full ensemble.

There are some fuckong hilarious people I've met too.


I miss big cities and highways though.

[M-L-C-F]

I can say that rural combat training is a good thing though. I want to get an AK, and do rural and urban combat training. Like some shit down in Detroit, and then either in the forests of northern California, or up in Iron Mountain, in the UP of Michigan. Detroit is perfect for urban training. The forests of northern Ontario would be good for rural training. But fuck taking a gun over the border.

I was looking at AK-74s, cause of their improvements. But if I can at least get an AKM, I'd be happy. I want the improved accuracy over the AK-47. I also don't want the cheap current Chinese knockoffs. I want either a Soviet model, a Maoist China era one, one from the German Democratic Republic, or a Vietnamese one from the 1980s or before. Because these current ones that China (and even Russia) are pumping out, are PLASTIC. Therefor, they're useless to me. I want craftsmanship, not garbage.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I'm sorry, but I'm inclined to agree with Devrim here. I've dealt with semi-rural and rural bullshit. Fuck that, I'd rather live in the fucking ghetto, than the boonies. At least down in the hood, it's somewhat predictable. Out in the sticks, you really can't predict how people are gonna be. I feel safer in the city of Detroit, than I do when I'm around those stupid rednecks.

Now, I'm not saying everyone's like that. But from what I've dealt with, it sure seems that way. I figure buttfuck nowhere is perfect for Maoists though. Since they orgasm over rural revolution. :lol:

Now, I've never really been in the country, I'm a life long city dweller, I know jack shit about farm life or rural life or any of that campy cowboy bang bang shit. This being said, I don't see how city life is better than country life. Just because you cluster more idiots together in tighter spaces doesn't negate the fact that where you live is still surrounded by idiots. Like seriously, not to mention you have dumb shits filling the hoods and even dumber dumb shits in the suburbs and such. Like, there, literally, is dumb people everywhere. Tbh, a lot of the time when I'm out an I am about, the Idiocracy narrator is my inner voice, lol, not that I am smart or anything, I feel in average but anymore it's like wtf.

Take for example, urban street gangs. Said subculture is filed with a rich history of idiocy an douchebaggery; sometimes of the highest order. Not to mention, Yuppie trust fund pukes whom unfortunately pollute our malls and shopping centres. I defy anyone to definitively prove to me that one is any better than the other.

[M-L-C-F]

Now, I've never really been in the country, I'm a life long city dweller, I know jack shit about farm life or rural life or any of that campy cowboy bang bang shit. This being said, I don't see how city life is better than country life. Just because you cluster more idiots together in tighter spaces doesn't negate the fact that where you live is still surrounded by idiots. Like seriously, not to mention you have dumb shits filling the hoods and even dumber dumb shits in the suburbs and such. Like, there, literally, is dumb people everywhere. Tbh, a lot of the time when I'm out an I am about, the Idiocracy narrator is my inner voice, lol, not that I am smart or anything, I feel in average but anymore it's like wtf.

Take for example, urban street gangs. Said subculture is filed with a rich history of idiocy an douchebaggery; sometimes of the highest order. Not to mention, Yuppie trust fund pukes whom unfortunately pollute our malls and shopping centres. I defy anyone to definitively prove to me that one is any better than the other.

You might get more idiots, but there's also a higher rate of smart people too. Because of the fact that there are more people alone. That being said, it also has a lot more to do with the convenience factor though. I like having lots of shit around me to do, and having an easier time getting the things that I need. As it is, I hate that the public transportation situation in the Detroit area is fucking terrible. If I was in the San Francisco Bay Area, NYC, LA, or even Chicago, I'd have had a much easier time with things, before I got my car.

Yeah, I hate the spoiled brats in the suburbs, and I've met gang members in the city as well. But I'd rather deal with them, than the KKK out in the country. Which is a problem in many parts of the US. Sure, you got racists in the more crowded areas. But not like that shit. I've got no patience for chickenshit rednecks. There's a reason why my black co-workers didn't go too far west or north of Detroit. Cause they feared the racist shit, that exists beyond certain parts of our area. It's bullshit that they're forced to feel that way, but I'm with them. I don't go out there, unless I gotta.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

You might get more idiots, but there's also a higher rate of smart people too. Because of the fact that there are more people alone. That being said, it also has a lot more to do with the convenience factor though. I like having lots of shit around me to do, and having an easier time getting the things that I need. As it is, I hate that the public transportation situation in the Detroit area is fucking terrible. If I was in San Francisco, NYC, LA, or even Chicago, I'd have had an easier time before I got my car.

Yeah, I hate the spoiled brats in the suburbs, and I've met gang members in the city as well. But I'd rather deal with them, than the KKK out in the country. Which is a problem in many parts of the US. Sure, you got racists in the more crowded areas. But not like that shit. I've got no patience for chickenshit rednecks. There's a reason why my black co-workers didn't go too far west or north of Detroit. Cause they feared the racist shit, that exists beyond certain parts of our area. It's bullshit that they're forced to feel that way, but I'm with them. I don't go out there, unless I gotta.

I could take you into whole boroughs were everyone is racist to the core. I also don't think gangsters are scary more it's just elements of that subculture are stupid. I also like the convenience but them really that's personal preference. I know I'm needy and like comfort but some people are more outdoorsy and minimalist. Which doesn't make them stupid. Plus I mean anymore cops are just modern klansman/overseers anyway. If you think that's bad try living in Shittsburgh or anywhere in PA. Even if you talk to a Port Authority supervisor they will still direct you to buses that don't exist.

[M-L-C-F]

I could take you into whole boroughs were everyone is racist to the core. I also don't think gangsters are scary more it's just elements of that subculture are stupid. I also like the convenience but them really that's personal preference. I know I'm needy and like comfort but some people are more outdoorsy and minimalist. Which doesn't make them stupid. Plus I mean anymore cops are just modern klansman/overseers anyway. If you think that's bad try living in Shittsburgh or anywhere in PA. Even if you talk to a Port Authority supervisor they will still direct you to buses that don't exist.

I'm not saying that living in the city doesn't have its problems. I'm also not saying that everyone out in the country is dumb. Nor am I saying that everyone in the city are smart. It's preference, do what you like. I'm however saying that I've come across a higher percentage of idiots in the country, than I've come across in the city. But I'm merely going on my experience, and that's all.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I like the idea of living somewhere remote, seems like there'd be more opportunity for me to do stuff with my hands or something which I kind of like.

Also as probably hypocritical as it is it'd be a great excuse to get like a big early 70's truck or something, I've always liked the look of those.

[Zukunftsmusik]

I really don't think somewhere with a population of 9,000 can be called a city. I looked up Anchorage's population and it's about the same as Southend in the UK - I think of Southend as pretty small and grim but then it's a seaside town in decline so obviously is gonna be really different to the capital of a state bigger than the entire UK. So I guess it's about perspective but for sure a population under 10,000 is pretty damn small is the scheme of things.

I think the definition of a city is not such a strict thing that it can be decided by number of citizens. There are legal definitions (that themselves change over time), historical, geographical... So obviously about perspective, but not simply in terms of populace, density and so on.

[Lord Testicles]

I think the definition of a city is not such a strict thing that it can be decided by number of citizens. There are legal definitions (that themselves change over time), historical, geographical... So obviously about perspective, but not simply in terms of populace, density and so on.

This. St Davids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Davids) is a city and it only has a population of around 2,000.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Link doesn't work

[Lord Testicles]

Fixed.

[M-L-C-F]

I like the idea of living somewhere remote, seems like there'd be more opportunity for me to do stuff with my hands or something which I kind of like.

Also as probably hypocritical as it is it'd be a great excuse to get like a big early 70's truck or something, I've always liked the look of those.

There's nothing wrong with liking trucks. I like the new Dodge Ram 1500 trucks, with the Cummins Turbo Diesel, and the 8-speed transmission. Though I hope they put that 9-speed in them, in the coming years. It helps with gas mileage, and is more efficient. I also like the current GMC trucks too. Diesel has better gas mileage as well. You can do a lot with trucks (4x4 of course).

[Os Cangaceiros]

That's because you live in a middle of nowhere rural backwoods.

Not really. I live in a town of 35,000 people.

And the term/concept of "village" actually plays a huge role in this state and it's culture in regards to the indigenous people here, which is why I mentioned that those places in particular are not villages, for reasons that go beyond the simple numeric of their populations.


I don't think that it is about 'ignorant people' at all.

Sure it is. The "ignorance of rural life" is ultimately defined by the day-to-day interactions of human beings, is it not? So of course when you say something like that, you're ultimately talking about people.


It seems that way.

I'm sorry you feel that way.


I don't think the fact that you live there and have affection for it stops it being a rural backwater "mired in ignorance and stupidity". If it doesn't sit well with you, well I am sorry if you find it offensive, but basically if you go one about how wonderful this rural existence is, you can't be surprised when somebody says that it is a backward reactionary hole.

Have I gone on about how wonderful it is? I don't think I have. In fact I've talked down on it a lot on this site. The thing I get annoyed about is someone trotting out quotes from Marx about a circumstance that they clearly know nothing about, and thinking that somehow they've made a substantial contribution to whatever is being discussed. That's the main problem here: you don't seem to have any real knowledge of what you're talking about, but you've decided to talk about it anyway. But I suspect that you're trolling a bit so I can't take it all that seriously.

Incidentally when I posted a while back in the thread about our "home towns", I posted my backwoods seaside rural ghetto and you said that it "looks wonderful".

http://www.revleft.com/vb/your-hoods-t92034/index.html

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Ya know, for a communist forum this thread sure has a lot of classist bs in it

[Rugged Collectivist]

Cities weird me out as much as the sticks.

Long live the suburbs.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The true hotbed of revolutionary proletarian consciousness lies in the suburbs.

[Lily Briscoe]

lol

[PC LOAD LETTER]

The true hotbed of revolutionary proletarian consciousness lies in the suburbs.
Oprah Book Club members of the world unite?

[M-L-C-F]

Not all suburbs are white capitalist fantasy lands. There is such a thing as working class suburbs. Here in the Detroit area, there are some. The same can be said elsewhere.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Yes, I am well aware of this.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Oprah Book Club members of the world unite?
Didn't you hear? She added capital to her reading list.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Didn't you hear? She added capital to her reading list.
Wait for real?

I mean, she's backed some good stuff before (like Cormac McCarthy's The Road) but I don't keep up with her actual book club shenanigans or watch her show or anything.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Ugh, I'm back in California and now I'm bored. Desperately. Between now and starting my next potential job is going to be a drag.

I tell you all what though, commercial fishing is fucking addicting.

[Ocean Seal]

Not all suburbs are white capitalist fantasy lands. There is such a thing as working class suburbs. Here in the Detroit area, there are some. The same can be said elsewhere.
As cities get increasingly gentrified the concentration of suburban poverty increases to unprecedented levels.
Also verbal warning to Devrim for going on a pretentious and classist rant and spewing vitriol against a member who maintained composure despite this.

[Creative Destruction]

I don't get what Marx's comments about the "idiocy of rural life" (which, if I remember currently, was borne out of his frustrations with the Chartist movement never catching on in the countryside)

It also seems to be a mistranslation: http://linguisticcapital.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/mistranslating-marx-the-idiocy-of-rural-life/ (there's a "rebuttal" in the comments, but his argument that Marx and Engels authorized the translation is specious -- iirc, Marx and Engels' English was never quite that good.)

[Devrim]

Also verbal warning to Devrim for going on a pretentious and classist rant and spewing vitriol against a member who maintained composure despite this.

First there is nothing ring with being classist. I am communist. I stand for the dictatorship of the proletariat. You can't get much more classist than that.

Second what are you suggesting that I said is classist anyway?

Devrim

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

"Classism" is an offense on RevLeft now? Oh great. Privilege politics ftw.

[Lily Briscoe]

It's because insulting rural life/sensibilities is absolute heresy in the world of American politics. There is no 'classism'.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

It's because insulting rural life/sensibilities is absolute heresy in the world of American politics. There is no 'classism'.

I understand, here in the arse-end of the universe things are pretty much the same, but you have to admit, there is something deliciously ironic about a staff member of a site that bills itself as "the home of the revolutionary left" (hmm, and what kind of home would that be?) talking about "classism". That's what happens when hurt feelings become the basis of "politics".

[M-L-C-F]

To be honest, I don't consider either classist. Both what Devrim said, and our politics. In the fact that rural areas don't specifically define a separate class anymore, and the fact that we seek the emancipation of the proletariat, and a classless society. I would argue that we're liberationist and anti-classist. Being against the ruling class and their middle class enforcers isn't classist. Much like how the Black Panthers weren't racist, they were anti-racist. The ruling class likes to make class consciousness seem like it's "class war" and classist. Cause it benefits them, with their false class diversity claims. Again, much like how the racist white ruling class ironically tried to make the Black Panthers look racist. As well as the theistic ruling class, making their false claims of diversity, and acting oppressed when their cults are put down with rational thought. I honestly think that Devrim made some real good points though. Despite me not always agreeing with them on other issues.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

It's because insulting rural life/sensibilities is absolute heresy in the world of American politics. There is no 'classism'.

As it should be everywhere else. Being a douche is never cool. Don't be a square.

[Lily Briscoe]

It's not even about "being a douche", it's more about being expected to get on your knees and give brain to rural sensibilities, or else keep your mouth shut, whenever the subject comes up. I don't see the problem with thinking rural living is shit and being frank about it. It's just kind of amusing how people tend to take it like some personal affront.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

It's not even about "being a douche", it's more about being expected to get on your knees and give brain to rural sensibilities, or else keep your mouth shut, whenever the subject comes up. I don't see the problem with thinking rural living is shit and being frank about it. It's just kind of amusing how people tend to take it like some personal affront.

Not to mention that most of those people, in my experience at least, are bored petit-bourgeois kiddies from the cities who idealise rural life because it's closer to nature or some other reactionary crap. I mean the biggest defender of rural life I've ever met (offline and online, which is a minor accomplishment given the sort of crap people spout online) is a rich little daddy's girl from Zagreb (well, she lives in Rovigno now, but that's not the point). Although, yeah, Zagreb is only a city because the government says it is.

Also, what the burning Jesus on a cream donut is "classism"? Saying mean things about other classes? Communists don't just say mean things about the bourgeoisie, we want to make fucking war on them and leave them without anything.

Jesus, RevLeft, try to keep up sometimes.

[o well this is ok I guess]

so what exactly are the conveniences that urban life offers as opposed to rural? From memory, all I can recall of rural life is limited access to bars (but not alcohol) and a long and shitty drive to the supermarket.

[Creative Destruction]

It's because insulting rural life/sensibilities is absolute heresy in the world of American politics. There is no 'classism'.

Insulting "rural life/sensibilities" is ignorant as hell and is a real problem in the left.

[Creative Destruction]

so what exactly are the conveniences that urban life offers as opposed to rural? From memory, all I can recall of rural life is limited access to bars (but not alcohol) and a long and shitty drive to the supermarket.

not being in a crammed city; being able to bike anywhere you please without the threat of getting run over; room to do things like grow a garden or have some chickens or livestock (so you don't have to go to the supermarket); cheaper rent; less traffic; quiet; no light pollution at night; more up-front view of storms when they happen; in texas, at least, the countryside bars were better than the urban bars -- drinks were cheaper and they tended to have better jukes. etc. etc. etc. my fondest memories are chilling on a porch with my friends, playing music, high and drunk and no one around to tell us to keep it down.

i loved growing up and living out in the country. can't stand being in the city anymore.

[Creative Destruction]

I don't see the problem with thinking rural living is shit and being frank about it. It's just kind of amusing how people tend to take it like some personal affront.

because you're telling people that they way they're living is -- it seems, to you, objectively -- shit. i don't see how that's not a personal affront. i can see saying "ya know, i don't really dig on country life." and that's fine. not everyone does. but some do like living that lifestyle and that's not cause for you to be a shithead about it. get the fuck over it.

[Devrim]

because you're telling people that they way they're living is -- it seems, to you, objectively -- shit. i don't see how that's not a personal affront. i can see saying "ya know, i don't really dig on country life." and that's fine. not everyone does. but some do like living that lifestyle and that's not cause for you to be a shithead about it. get the fuck over it.

You might think it's rude. You might think it's a 'personal affront'. Where is it classist though, and what is wrong with communists being classist?

Personally I think that if people start a discussion on a discussion board, they shouldn't be surprised when peoe disagree with them. Especially they shouldn't be surprised if they start all of this glorification of the countryside, which is deeply tied in with petite-bourgeois ideology, and people call it for what it is.

The surprising thing here is that people running a supposedly left wing discussion board have so little idea about left wing politics that they think being classist is a problem. Then again, I have posted here for a long time, and it's not that surprising really.

Devrim

[o well this is ok I guess]

not being in a crammed city; being able to bike anywhere you please without the threat of getting run over; room to do things like grow a garden or have some chickens or livestock (so you don't have to go to the supermarket); cheaper rent; less traffic; quiet; no light pollution at night; more up-front view of storms when they happen; in texas, at least, the countryside bars were better than the urban bars -- drinks were cheaper and they tended to have better jukes. etc. etc. etc. my fondest memories are chilling on a porch with my friends, playing music, high and drunk and no one around to tell us to keep it down.

i loved growing up and living out in the country. can't stand being in the city anymore. whoa man i was asking the exact opposite: what do I do here in the city that I can't in the town, as opposed to what I can do in the town as opposed to the city?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

so what exactly are the conveniences that urban life offers as opposed to rural? From memory, all I can recall of rural life is limited access to bars (but not alcohol) and a long and shitty drive to the supermarket.

Public transportation. Public life and the ability to participate in the same. Easier access to education (sure, education is expensive, but I think many people underestimate how convenient it is to live next to your school or university). Easier access to cultural events, regardless of the season. Easier access to healthcare. More options when it comes to choosing your flavour of wage slavery. Less encounters with wildlife (people can laugh at this all they want but as someone who is allergic to insect bites I really appreciate being able to take a walk in the summer without being mobbed by bloody wasps). It's easier to meet new people and it's easier to ignore people you don't care for (and as a general rule, there is less community gossip in the cities).

If you're a prole, chances are you already live in the city (the rural proletariat being minuscule), and organising as a communist, and political activity in general, is infinitely easier in the cities.

[Creative Destruction]

Public transportation. Public life and the ability to participate in the same. Easier access to education (sure, education is expensive, but I think many people underestimate how convenient it is to live next to your school or university). Easier access to cultural events, regardless of the season. Easier access to healthcare. More options when it comes to choosing your flavour of wage slavery. Less encounters with wildlife (people can laugh at this all they want but as someone who is allergic to insect bites I really appreciate being able to take a walk in the summer without being mobbed by bloody wasps). It's easier to meet new people and it's easier to ignore people you don't care for (and as a general rule, there is less community gossip in the cities).

With the exception of "More options when it comes to wage slavery" and "less encounters with wildlife" (I think encounters with wildlife is a positive, so), I had no issues with access to any of this stuff when I lived in the country.


If you're a prole, chances are you already live in the city (the rural proletariat being minuscule), and organising as a communist, and political activity in general, is infinitely easier in the cities.

I doubt any leftist knows that this is true, because the left hasn't organized in the country side for nearly a century. Oklahoma, back in the early 1900s, had the largest socialist party in the United States, mainly made up of rural folks. Texas and Arkansas had burgeoning socialist parties, as well. After those parties died (due in part to government harassment), all leftist organizing pretty much evacuated from the area and we've completely neglected the countryside.

[Lily Briscoe]

Also, what the burning Jesus on a cream donut is "classism"?

I think people are just using it to mean "elitism" or something. That or it's supposed to mean 'anti-working class' but people are confusing the rural petty bourgeoisie for the working class, which is something that happens a lot here.

[Creative Destruction]

I think people are just using it to mean "elitism" or something. That or it's supposed to mean 'anti-working class' but people are confusing the rural petty bourgeoisie for the working class, which is something that happens a lot here.

do you think anyone who is rural is "petty bourgeoisie"?

[Lily Briscoe]

Er, no? But as others have pointed out, the working class is overwhelmingly not in the countryside, and rural sensibilities/the glorification of rural life tends to be distinctly petty bourgeois
because you're telling people that they way they're living is -- it seems, to you, objectively -- shit. i don't see how that's not a personal affront. i can see saying "ya know, i don't really dig on country life." and that's fine. not everyone does. but some do like living that lifestyle and that's not cause for you to be a shithead about it. get the fuck over it.

It sounds like you're the one who needs to get over it, honestly.

[Creative Destruction]

You might think it's rude. You might think it's a 'personal affront'. Where is it classist though, and what is wrong with communists being classist?

I never argued it was classist. I just think it's dumb and ignorant.


Personally I think that if people start a discussion on a discussion board, they shouldn't be surprised when peoe disagree with them. Especially they shouldn't be surprised if they start all of this glorification of the countryside, which is deeply tied in with petite-bourgeois ideology, and people call it for what it is.

The countryside is not "deeply tied in" with petit-bourgeois ideology anymore than cities are.


The surprising thing here is that people running a supposedly left wing discussion board have so little idea about left wing politics that they think being classist is a problem. Then again, I have posted here for a long time, and it's not that surprising really.

Devrim

You're addressing someone else's arguments here. Not mine.

[Creative Destruction]

Er, no?

Then what makes you think that people are confusing them in the first place?


It sounds like you're the one who needs to get over it, honestly.

i will, once leftists stop being complete shitheads about matters of rural people.

[Creative Destruction]

But as others have pointed out, the working class is overwhelmingly not in the countryside, and rural sensibilities/the glorification of rural life tends to be distinctly petty bourgeois

it's not "distinctly" petty bourgeois. that's complete nonsense. i've heard more glorification of small business owners and the drive to be in some high management position in Portland than i ever had living in the country.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

With the exception of "More options when it comes to wage slavery" and "less encounters with wildlife" (I think encounters with wildlife is a positive, so), I had no issues with access to any of this stuff when I lived in the country.

I don't think encounters with wasps, hornets, wolves and so on generally turn out positive for most people. As for the rest - well, all I can say is that you've apparently lived in a truly remarkable stretch of the country, as most rural areas lack easily-accessible healthcare facilities (here, some areas are so remote helicopters need to be sent for emergency cases), secondary schools and universities tend to be concentrated in the cities, likewise libraries, theatres etc., and so on.


I doubt any leftist knows that this is true, because the left hasn't organized in the country side for nearly a century. Oklahoma, back in the early 1900s, had the largest socialist party in the United States, mainly made up of rural folks. Texas and Arkansas had burgeoning socialist parties, as well. After those parties died (due in part to government harassment), all leftist organizing pretty much evacuated from the area and we've completely neglected the countryside.

The strengths and the weaknesses of the Socialist Party became evident when the left wing was expelled. I mean, sorry, I know some people idolise Debs but the SPA weren't exactly the Bolsheviks or the Tesnyaki.

As for the assertion that the left hasn't organised in the countryside "for nearly a century", that's outright ludicrous. Organising among the peasants has been a fad since the sixties at least, when a lot of the "socialist" groups became impatient with the workers, leading to ideas about "new mass vanguards", "red universities", copying Mao's "protracted people's war" etc. Needless to say, none of these have been a great success.


I think people are just using it to mean "elitism" or something. That or it's supposed to mean 'anti-working class' but people are confusing the rural petty bourgeoisie for the working class, which is something that happens a lot here.

That, or people genuinely think that people of different classes need to get along and treat each other with respect and so on, which is how I've heard liberals use the phrase. I think it is an inexcusable phrase on an ostensibly socialist site.


it's not "distinctly" petty bourgeois. that's complete nonsense. i've heard more glorification of small business owners and the drive to be in some high management position in Portland than i ever had living in the country.

Independent farmers are members of the petite bourgeoisie. You can't seriously claim that people who glorify the countryside don't glorify the farmer, the peasant etc.

[Creative Destruction]

Independent farmers are members of the petite bourgeoisie. You can't seriously claim that people who glorify the countryside don't glorify the farmer, the peasant etc.

Well, I don't. No one else I knew did, unless they were staunchly ideological. Most weren't, and most rural folks are not "independent farmers." In fact, if you go to the rural towns in the valley of Texas (near the border), you'll probably hear some pretty nasty things about the farmers. Marx's original point about rural folks is more or less true -- far and away from leftist "critique" of rural folks these days; there's an apathy and a "stupor," but it's not tied into petty-bourgeoisie ideology. It's a disillusionment with society generally, not a positive affirmation of the small business owner.

Rural folks can't be held to city folks' idealisation of the countryside (and that is where it comes from -- no one is coming from the People's Countryside Association or whatever and hocking how great and idealistic the country is. It is an issue because it dehumanizes rural people and makes it seem like they have no issues). That's not their faults. In the countryside, the reality is often different. There are some towns where they do celebrate the farmer, businessperson, etc. Others don't so much. It's about as diverse a social ecosystem as a city is, with many of the same problems. And this still has nothing to say about the fact that it's not "distinctly" rural to idolize the petite-bourgeoisie. That's about as "city" of a thing as you can get with many places (San Francisco, Portland, Austin, NYC, Indianapolis, etc. etc. etc.) People are letting their personal (ignorant) biases get the better of them in this conversation.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Well, I don't. No one else I knew did, unless they were staunchly ideological. Most weren't, and most rural folks are not "independent farmers."

True to an extent - I suppose most of them are dependents of independent farmers. But these (independent farmers) are the majority of the employed, since the rural proletariat is minuscule (although, looking at the figures, not as much as I would have supposed off the cuff) and sharecropping and similar arrangements are pretty much dead.

[Creative Destruction]

True to an extent - I suppose most of them are dependents of independent farmers.

They're not.


But these (independent farmers) are the majority of the employed, since the rural proletariat is minuscule (although, looking at the figures, not as much as I would have supposed off the cuff) and sharecropping and similar arrangements are pretty much dead.

As a share of the working class, rural workers are small, simply for the fact that the majority of people live in cities. Most rural folks are workers, either laboring in small businesses in town, commuting to the city or doing some form of manufacturing or agricultural work.

[Lily Briscoe]

it's not "distinctly" petty bourgeois. that's complete nonsense. i've heard more glorification of small business owners and the drive to be in some high management position in Portland than i ever had living in the country.

I think you misunderstood. I didn't say petty bourgeois sensibilities were distinctly rural, I said the glorification of rural life tends to be distinctly petty bourgeois, e.g. worshiping economic 'self-sufficiency', growing your own food, raising your own livestock, etc.

Also, in response to one of your earlier comments, I actually don't agree at all that there is some epidemic of hostility toward "rural folks" on the American left. I think in a lot of cases, you actually get the opposite, with leftists going out of their way to pander to backwards rural sensibilities, which is part of the reason you get such absurdities as supposed socialists banging on about how "The second amendment to The Constitution guarantees the right to bare arms, how is an unarmed populace supposed to defend themselves and their property?" etc. etc.

[Creative Destruction]

I think you misunderstood. I didn't say petty bourgeois sensibilities were distinctly rural, I said the glorification of rural life tends to be distinctly petty bourgeois, e.g. worshiping economic 'self-sufficiency', growing your own food, raising your own livestock, etc.

How in the hell is growing your own food and raising your own animals a "petty bourgeois sensibility"? You don't have to be a small business owner or a high-level manager to raise chickens and grow tomatoes. I mean, really, what the hell?


Also, in response to one of your earlier comments, I actually don't agree at all that there is some epidemic of hostility toward "rural folks" on the American left. I think in a lot of cases, you actually get the opposite, with leftists going out of their way to pander to backwards rural sensibilities, which is part of the reason you get such absurdities as supposed socialists banging on about how "The second amendment to The Constitution guarantees the right to bare arms, how is an unarmed populace supposed to defend themselves and their property?" etc. etc.

This isn't my experience with any organizer I've come across. A couple months ago, I was visiting with a couple of guys from Socialist Alternative, and it was pulling teeth trying to get them to talk about rural issues. It all came back to organizing in the city. Same thing when I tried talking to other organizers in Texas. There is a shit ton of neglect of rural issues or sometimes outright hostility (as seen in this thread) toward rural folks and the lives they lead. I've seen that more than any of this supposed pandering.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I think you misunderstood. I didn't say petty bourgeois sensibilities were distinctly rural, I said the glorification of rural life tends to be distinctly petty bourgeois, e.g. worshiping economic 'self-sufficiency', growing your own food, raising your own livestock, etc.

Not to mention the horrible decadence, "alienation" and meaninglessness of urban life. And how all of this ties into some pretty nasty reactionary shit.


Also, in response to one of your earlier comments, I actually don't agree at all that there is some epidemic of hostility toward "rural folks" on the American left. I think in a lot of cases, you actually get the opposite, with leftists going out of their way to pander to backwards rural sensibilities, which is part of the reason you get such absurdities as supposed socialists banging on about how "The second amendment to The Constitution guarantees the right to bare arms, how is an unarmed populace supposed to defend themselves and their property?" etc. etc.

Well, the Sparts explicitly support gun rights, but not because they're oriented toward the rural population (they don't exist in the countryside, actually), and not because of the Constitution (ugh), but because generally they don't trust the bourgeois state and its prohibitions.

[Creative Destruction]

Not to mention the horrible decadence, "alienation" and meaninglessness of urban life. And how all of this ties into some pretty nasty reactionary shit.

So, y'all are painting these "petit-bourgeois" sensibilities on rural folks who have had nothing to do with the crap idealism that city bourgeois has attached to it.

Again, this kind of shit isn't welcome in rural areas, either. It leads to dehumanizing rural folks, whitewashing (sometimes literally) their problems, and can lead to gentrification, like what happened in my town. People's homes getting foreclosed on because an inability to keep up with rising property values thanks to rich folks who moved from the city and into the country.

[Creative Destruction]

Ugh, I'm back in California and now I'm bored. Desperately. Between now and starting my next potential job is going to be a drag.

I tell you all what though, commercial fishing is fucking addicting.

If I wasn't in school, I'd probably be doing this. At the risk of accusations of being "petit-bourgeois," I've always liked the idea of trying to start a cooperative shrimp boat.

[Devrim]

How in the hell is growing your own food and raising your own animals a "petty bourgeois sensibility"? You don't have to be a small business owner or a high-level manager to raise chickens and grow tomatoes. I mean, really, what the hell?

Yes, it is absolutely the dream of the petite-bourgeoisie, independent self production.

You do know that the peasantry is a part of the petite-bourgeoisie, don't you?


If I wasn't in school, I'd probably be doing this. At the risk of accusations of being "petit-bourgeois," I've always liked the idea of trying to start a cooperative shrimp boat.

It figures.

Devrim

[Creative Destruction]

Yes, it is absolutely the dream of the petite-bourgeoisie, independent self production.

You do know that the peasantry is a part of the petite-bourgeoisie, don't you?

If you're selling and making a living off the produce and the animal products, then that would make you petite-bourgeoisie, of course. Most people -- in the country or in the city -- who have gardens, raise chickens and what not, do not sell what they make. They consume it. Growing your own food does not make you a class enemy. That's insane. Nowhere is that supported in any leftist thought. It's cheaper for me to grow a subsistence garden and collect eggs than it is to stock up at the supermarket.

Good lord. RevLeft is pretty amazing sometimes.

I can see it now: Devrim and his merry band of revolutionaries embark on their first revolutionary task: uprooting all the petit-bourgeois gardens, even if they don't belong to petty capitalists! Verily, this will bring about true equality and abolition of the class and wage system.

[Creative Destruction]

It figures.

Devrim

what figures? that i'd be working on a fishing boat? i suppose so.

[BIXX]

You know you've gone full dipshit when rednoise and u agree that you're being fucking stupid.

[Rusty Shackleford]

If I wasn't in school, I'd probably be doing this. At the risk of accusations of being "petit-bourgeois," I've always liked the idea of trying to start a cooperative shrimp boat.

The conditions of my employment were very clear. I took 20% of the revenue from the catch, right off the top. My skipper/captain kept 80%. Though a lot of money goes into just keeping a boat in operation as well. Fuel for example would be around $300 a trip just to top off the boat. Food is about $1-200 per trip. There are monthly harbor fees for docking, electricity while at dock, upkeep costs ( cleaning materials, protective gear, oil, etc... usually low unless major work is needed) and registration and so on.

I wasn't working on a very productive boat (for myriad reasons which I will not get into) so though yes I was only getting 1/5 return on the work I put in (which aside from navigation, I did everything) was not that painful. In fact, the most interesting part is that it almost feels as if there is no alienation.

I set the gear, I pull the gear, I catch the fish, I clean the fish, I ice/slush the fish, and I offload the fish. I am involved in every step of the production of this commodity except for well, the alienating part of not actually owning any of it. But, I know what I make per pound and I can assume a 15 pound (and normal meaning no scars and shit) fish gives me $6. 1,000 pounds of fish gives me $350-$400 depending on the quality of the fish.

Aside from class dynamics and all that shit, it is probably one of the most interesting and actually motivating jobs I'll ever have.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Devrim:

I didn't really look to see what most of the other people are saying in the thread, but here in the southeastern US most rural people are not farmers or large landowners or anything like that. Yeah, a lot of people grow vegetables or have fruit trees and maybe rabbits or chickens but that's more of an attempt to lower their grocery bill or even just a hobby than anything. Hunting is also prevalent, because for relatively little investment you can out of nowhere have a shit ton (100lbs or more) of meat that will last you a year. This is often shared with neighbors or family. Most of the work will be in random factories, or maybe working FOR a farm, or the oil industry, or teaching, or in a restaurant 45 miles away, or in a supermarket, or construction/welding/carpentry, or as an electrician or plumber, or any other manner of generic wage-earning positions. The most popular non-proletarian job that I can think of would be independent fishermen or independent electricians, but most won't or can't afford the investment to do that, or don't have the education necessary to start and maintain a business because public education in the rural southeastern US is extra shitty with a shit-cherry on top.

At the same time, this group of people tend to be disparaged among suburban and urban populations as "hicks" or "rednecks" or something along those lines. These terms are used to convey that the person being spoken of is of a lower social position (uneducated, dirty, etc) than the person saying it. This is where the 'classism' comes from. It's not "we can't be against the petit-bourgeoisie as a class" or glorifying the petit-bourgeois farmer/survivalist/whatever, It's because "we shouldn't deride the rural and sub-rural proletarians using elitist language because they're still proletarians". If anyone's trying to glorify the rural landowner/farmer, er, I'm not trying to defend them or that position.

Not partial to living in rural or sub-rural areas? Cool. Your choice, nobody should be getting mad at you for that. No more offensive than saying "I don't like blue houses". I personally enjoy the quiet, lack of light pollution, and easy access to hiking trails / lakes / rivers / etc. Though I no longer live in a rural area ...

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I think calling an area rural implies that agriculture is the dominant economic branch in the area. Small company towns, workers' barracks, post towns and so on are not villages, even though they might have less people than some villages.

Of course, small towns also have their own specific "idiotism" in the sense that it is difficult for their population to meaningfully participate in the political life of the nation.


So, y'all are painting these "petit-bourgeois" sensibilities on rural folks who have had nothing to do with the crap idealism that city bourgeois has attached to it.

Except both me and Strix were talking about people who glorify rural life. And as I specifically stated, most of these people are bored petit-bourgeois kiddies from the cities. I know people from agricultural villages and small towns - my partner spent the better part of her childhood in a village as a refugee. Most of them would agree that rural life is not exactly nice.

[Creative Destruction]

I think calling an area rural implies that agriculture is the dominant economic branch in the area.

that's not necessarily what it implies. it's a component of it.

[Devrim]

If you're selling and making a living off the produce and the animal products, then that would make you petite-bourgeoisie, of course. Most people -- in the country or in the city -- who have gardens, raise chickens and what not, do not sell what they make. They consume it. Growing your own food does not make you a class enemy. That's insane. Nowhere is that supported in any leftist thought. It's cheaper for me to grow a subsistence garden and collect eggs than it is to stock up at the supermarket.

I didn't say that growing your own food does makes you petite-bourgeois. OF course it doesn't by default. What I said is that self-sufficiency is the dream of the petite-bourgeoisie. It is.

Most people though, who live in big cities, which strangely enough is where the majority of the proletariat lives, don't actually have gardens, and if they do, they certainly aren't big enough to grow food in.


I can see it now: Devrim and his merry band of revolutionaries embark on their first revolutionary task: uprooting all the petit-bourgeois gardens, even if they don't belong to petty capitalists! Verily, this will bring about true equality and abolition of the class and wage system.

I live in a city. I don't have, or know anybody who has a garden here. I'd be highly unlikely to be doing that.


what figures? that i'd be working on a fishing boat? i suppose so.

No, the desire to own a small business.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Incidentally when I posted a while back in the thread about our "home towns", I posted my backwoods seaside rural ghetto and you said that it "looks wonderful".

Yes, I think that things can look wonderful in a picture. It doesn't mean I'd actually like to live there though.


Have I gone on about how wonderful it is? I don't think I have. In fact I've talked down on it a lot on this site. The thing I get annoyed about is someone trotting out quotes from Marx about a circumstance that they clearly know nothing about, and thinking that somehow they've made a substantial contribution to whatever is being discussed. That's the main problem here: you don't seem to have any real knowledge of what you're talking about, but you've decided to talk about it anyway. But I suspect that you're trolling a bit so I can't take it all that seriously.

I'm partially joking, yes. You'd be wise not to take me that seriously. I think trolling would be unfair though as I am trying to make a serious point too.

Devrim