Anti-ASPD Sentiment

[Lither]

Going to try and keep this short here. Spoilered for triggers; discrimination and violence.

I suffer from a number of different mental disorders. The biggest (and the one that affects me most) is antisocial personality disorder (ASPD), known in popular culture as psychopathy. I actually prefer being called that for more personal reasons linked to a bad experience with a certain therapist. I also have tendencies towards sadistic and narcisstic personality disorders because of it.

Now I for one find consistent social discrimination against me for this. Helpful guides pop up online saying things like "how to spot a psychopathy" as if we were some terrifying minority come to take your jobs/ money/ sexual partners. As much of half the prison population of my homeland is made up of sufferers. Cuts to health almost invariably have us in their sights. The media depicts us all as soulless monsters who think as little of strangling someone as shaking their hand. Yet even on the left I find discrimination against us prevalent. Barely a thread goes by in certain sections of the forum without someone calling someone else a psychopath. I feel that should they have used the r-word or called them autistic then the community may have responded better.

Now some of the things they say are true; I for one have exactly two emotions. Amusement and mild anger. I do not have a conscience or a sense of empathy. I can't even meet someone's eyes without thinking about putting them out, and as a child I was the sort who tormented animals. Especially flies and rats. Telling the truth is difficult, particularly for prolonged periods. Not manipulating people for my own amusement is harder than doing it. I only ever feel alive when killing, and I may have attempted murder of a human twice. My pain response is extremely muted, and I do not have a fear response (whenever I got a major injury, such as breaking my arm, severe burns from catching fire, shattering my skull like an eggshell, and being stabbed in the bladder I generally didn't feel much pain).

However, I don't feel it's a valid reason for the constant distrust and suspicion I get from people who know my story. Police have me on a watchlist, I cannot own weapons, and apparently I'm suited to a career in a private military force. Even the casual backhands I get from everywhere get difficult to deal with at times.

[RedWorker]

I'm extremely sorry that you suffer from that, comrade - I do not mean this to be condescending, insulting, or offensive in any way, to be clear, and I don't believe it makes you a "worse person".

Why are you a leftist, comrade? Many people are leftists out of empathy for others or morality, for instance. Is it out of self-interest in your case, or what? Seeing as according to you, you have no empathy or feelings for others.

If you truly do not have empathy, then why did you spoiler that, and use trigger warnings? Surely you must have done it to not shock others - meaning that you care for others to some degree.


However, I don't feel it's a valid reason for the constant distrust and suspicion I get from people who know my story.Well, you do "torment animals", "only feel alive when killing" and "may have attempted murder of a human twice"...

[Lither]

I'm extremely sorry that you suffer from that, comrade - I do not mean this to be condescending, insulting, or offensive in any way, to be clear, and I don't believe it makes you a "worse person".

Why are you a leftist, comrade? Many people are leftists out of empathy for others or morality, for instance. Is it out of self-interest in your case, or what? Seeing as according to you, you have no empathy or feelings for others.

Multiple reasons. There's more that I'll probably remember later, but these are off the top of my head.

Firstly, economics. The perpetual boom/crash cycle of capitalism does not, in my books, translate to the promised efficiency. Plus, concentrating economic power into a small group of people leads to highly suspect choices. I'd rather a system where economic power was shared among the most amount of people possible.

Secondly, environment. I can't live in a dead world. The only real push for better environmental regulation comes from the left. Capitalist environmental incentives do not work; I live in a nation where they've quite badly failed. Therefore, it is clear that a grand, structural change is necessary to the continuation of human existence.

Thirdly, healthcare. Your average capitalist fat cat opposes it. I spend an inordinate amount of time visiting some form of doctor. Either mental or physical health related ones.

Fourthly, leftists in general have been the driving force behind anti-discrimination efforts.

Fifthly, a touch of spite; I grew up with a pair of neo-Nazis who are now both coppers. What better ideology than socialism to oppose them in their entirety?

Sixthly, I'm a historian. Marx was spot-on. The likes of Mises have been utterly wrong. Given that, I'm more inclined to trust Marx.

Finally, there's that part with the revolution and such. I like causing change. Change in people, in systems, anything really.


If you truly do not have empathy, then why did you spoiler that, and use trigger warnings? Surely you must have done it to not shock others - meaning that you care for others to some degree.

Mostly, I know how to act in social situations, or at least passably feign it. People with ASPD tend to be politicians for a reason ;)

Also threat of reprisal. I know what admins can do. It's a simple change that ensures I don't draw their ire. Like being polite to people, or saying what they want to hear. It doesn't cause problems to me, but it can help a lot.


Well, you do "torment animals", "only feel alive when killing" and "may have attempted murder of a human twice"...

Used to with the first and last. I learnt better how to fit in with society, though as ever I lack the emotional depth for real connections with my fellow human being. The difference between casual acquaintances and deep friendships, I'm told. Not that I'm incapable of feigning emotional connections with people if it suits me.

[synthesis]

Yet even on the left I find discrimination against us prevalent. Barely a thread goes by in certain sections of the forum without someone calling someone else a psychopath. I feel that should they have used the r-word or called them autistic then the community may have responded better.

I've asked this question here before as well.

In fairness, though, I think personality disorders are generally treated a lot differently from mood disorders and especially developmental/learning disabilities. With the latter two, there is a lot more popular recognition of their basic neurological origins, whereas with personality disorders it's treated more as a collection of symptoms that generally happens to correspond to a given condition rather than as something with a specific and well-known pathology.

I firmly believe that in a hundred years at most - probably more like twenty - the whole categorization of "personality disorders" and how we treat people with them is going to be looked at the same way that we look at "female hysteria (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2737/did-victorian-era-doctors-use-vibrators-to-treat-hysteric-female-patients-with-orgasm-therapy)" now - as ridiculous and backwards.

Personality disorders are basically pseudo-science to me in that the analyses purport to be "objective" but in fact are almost always extremely judgmental and based on how the doctor differentiates him or herself from the patient. It's basically just treated as a given that people with personality disorders are going to do weird or fucked up shit and not be able to truly understand why it bothers people, whereas with mood and developmental disorders, where we have more of an idea of the neurological pathology, we look at it as something fundamentally treatable and therefore at the people who suffer from it as redeemable.

So I don't think that a straightforward comparison - of calling someone a psychopath versus calling someone retarded - is really warranted, but that's just because of the state of the discipline at the moment. Once we dispense with the notion of "personality disorders" entirely, whatever replaces that concept for describing conditions such as yours will almost certainly be less acceptable to use as a pejorative.

[Lither]

I've asked this question here before as well.

In fairness, though, I think personality disorders are generally treated a lot differently from mood disorders and especially developmental/learning disabilities. With the latter two, there is a lot more popular recognition of their basic neurological origins, whereas with personality disorders it's treated more as a collection of symptoms that generally happens to correspond to a given condition rather than as something with a specific and well-known pathology.

I firmly believe that in a hundred years at most - probably more like twenty - the whole categorization of "personality disorders" and how we treat people with them is going to be looked at the same way that we look at "female hysteria" now - as ridiculous and backwards.

Personality disorders are basically pseudo-science to me in that the analyses purport to be "objective" but in fact are almost always extremely judgmental and based on how the doctor differentiates him or herself from the patient. It's basically just treated as a given that people with personality disorders are going to do weird or fucked up shit and not be able to truly understand why it bothers people, whereas with mood and developmental disorders, where we have more of an idea of the neurological pathology, we look at it as something fundamentally treatable and therefore at the people who suffer from it as redeemable.

So I don't think that a straightforward comparison - of calling someone a psychopath versus calling someone retarded - is really warranted, but that's just because of the state of the discipline at the moment. Once we dispense with the notion of "personality disorders" entirely, whatever replaces that concept for describing conditions such as yours will almost certainly be less acceptable to use as a pejorative.

Yet, "psychopathy" in a fairly recent experiment is linked to lack of brain responses that the so-described "normal" folk have. Furthermore, since the 1980s there's been known and clear links between damage to the prefrontal cortex or amygdala and development of ASPD in later life. Furthermore, there's the appearance of differences between the cavum septum pellucidum compared with "normal" people and with how strongly ASPD later manifests (along with PTSD and schizophrenia). From that I would suggest that personality disorders may have a definite physical background and rather real.

(I'd post links to sources, but I haven't enough posts).

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

I have to say, I'm getting sick of some Revlefters doing as you described as well. It makes me very angry. I don't have ASPD but I do have experience with 'personality disorders' in general (and a couple specifically) which have made me very wary about talking about my 'mental health' (a massively loaded and offensive term in itself) around other people.

It's really quite scary to see progressive people like those on this site who have knocked down so many of society's facades (homophobia, misogyny, ableism and the rest) to come up so short in this regard. They do it gleefully as well. I suppose because it is one of the last things they can discriminate about they feel more precious about it. The other I can think of (on this board) is animal rights. When they do attack the victims of these discriminations they revel in it and are just as insensitive and dogmatic as the fascists they claim to be the antithesis of.

I think it kind of goes to show that these inherited opinions are not done away with all together, but one by one, and as each dogmatic discrimination is lost people cling to their remaining ones even more fervently and with more cruelty.

You may have seen the thread on that MRA shooter; it was the one that really confirmed for me that these attitudes about psychopathy existed on this site. Their explanation for his misogyny and killing spree was simply "he was a psychopath, that's what they do, end of story".

Firstly there was no proof at all that he was a psychopath. People saw that he had 'mental problems' and had committed an act of violence, and were immediately sure that this made him a psychopath. In fact most people acted as if they thought weirdo, lunatic, madman and super villain to be synonyms of 'psychopath'.

Secondly, this seemed to satisfy most people that the issue was closed and not worthy of further discussion. As if they are some kind of force of nature intent solely on causing harm, and that if a bad thing happens it is likely their fault - the psychopaths, the mentally ill. To me this seems no different to the concept of terrorism - and the way it is used today particularly by the US government. No examination needed, no examination possible - there is no internal logic, no reasoning - it was a terrorist/psychopath.

Very fucking sick of this shit.

[Futility Personified]

If someone has a penchant for sadism and manipulation, then it would make sense to me to be wary of these people. I will be completely honest: If you are innately drawn to causing other people misery, to enjoy a sense of power over others, then you are a predator. As eugenics is an unacceptable solution, then being watched and monitored to limit your own ability to fuck other people over is for your good as much as it is others. Some people are drawn to socialism or anarchism out of desires to empower the weakest and the vulnerable in society. Psychopaths can be victims of the system just as much as other people with serious mental health disorders, but psychopathic behaviour derives pleasure from malice, whereas others are much less likely to. A drive to succeed at the expense of others is often how this behaviour manifests. Why should we be more trusting?

[Lither]

I do not ask for trust, as I expect as much as I give, but I do ask that there is less active discrimination against us.

[Futility Personified]

Could you clarify what you consider active discrimination a bit further, please?

[Lither]

Things like the liberal use of the word "psychopath" as a slur that crops up here, most often in OI.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I've noticed an increase of people on the internet claiming to be sociopaths/psychopaths, it reminds me of the internet's asperger phase a few years ago where something like 50% of a given community would identify as suffering from a condition that is actually incredibly rare in the real world. This isn't to suggest that you are lying, but the point is those fake asperger people did a great job of mystifying the disorder to the disservice of the small amount of people actually suffering from it. So while I do think that the government and media write off certain people as psychopaths specifically because it prevents in-depth examination of events, it also doesn't help that the majority of people acting as your voice in public spaces (the internet) are probably lying and don't have a clue what the fuck they're taking about. Why it's becoming the new fake disorder trend does interest me though.

I would like to see the use of psychopathy as a scape goat disappear, but I feel there will probably always be a high level of distrust between real psychopaths and everyone else even if that did happen.

[Lither]

I remember that. I even got misdiagnosed as suffering Aspergers during that time from an overeager therapist. Later found to be barking up the wrong tree.
And of course, there will always be people who act in a quite terrible manner than claim mental illnesses in an attempt at avoiding getting in to trouble over it.

Interestingly enough, Asperger's once was known as autistic psychopathy, in Asperger's own works, too.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

You should keep posting here, I think it's a topic that gets totally ignored and it would be cool to have someone who actually knows something about it around. I'm definitely guilty of using the word psycho in an uncool manner, I'll have to watch that.

[synthesis]

Yet, "psychopathy" in a fairly recent experiment is linked to lack of brain responses that the so-described "normal" folk have. Furthermore, since the 1980s there's been known and clear links between damage to the prefrontal cortex or amygdala and development of ASPD in later life. Furthermore, there's the appearance of differences between the cavum septum pellucidum compared with "normal" people and with how strongly ASPD later manifests (along with PTSD and schizophrenia). From that I would suggest that personality disorders may have a definite physical background and rather real.

(I'd post links to sources, but I haven't enough posts).

Sure, there are neurological similarities between people diagnosed with the condition; the point is not the correlations that are noticed but that they do not identify the direct causality in the same way that we can identify that of bipolar disorder or autism. Of course it has something to do with differences in the parts of the brain that deal with empathy and, to a lesser extent, impulse control. I think once we learn more about the origins of these pathologies in the brain, there will be a gradual abandonment of the terms "psychopathy," "sociopathy" and "anti-social" in clinical use, replaced with something like "empathy disorders," with a corresponding rise in development of medications that are capable of influencing the relevant parts of the brain.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I think it's interesting that your OP was written (so it seems) to illicit a sympathetic response you yourself would be unable to feel.

I don't think we should prejudge psychopaths and sociopaths legally, but the lack of sympathy and the ease at manipulating those of us who are more emotionally endowed will naturally cause mistrust, since honesty and sympathy are (rightfully) important conditions to have a trusting relationship. Even more when the lack of honesty and sympathy lead folks to murder, rape and abuse others for their own pleasure. The mistrust of others is just a reflection of your inability to sympathize and your desire to manipulate. I think it's only natural that people have a desire for those they are theoretically in solidarity with to really care for them as people, and not see them simply as individuals who can be twisted to their own ends.

Of course, I am much more sympathetic to someone who cannot empathize for biological reasons (putting any questions of nature/nurture aside) than someone who cannot empathize for their class, gender or racial privilege

[Luís Henrique]

Why it's becoming the new fake disorder trend does interest me though.

Indeed, that's an interesting issue.

Of what I have seen in the internet, most people claiming to be psychopaths are righ-wingers; their "justification" for their political position is that they have no "empathy" towards the downtrodden.

It seems to me that it is based on a misunderstanding of the word "empathy" and what it entails. Or perhaps it would be more precise to say that the word "empathy" has different meanings, and when they get confused, people who are merely lonesome, miserly or misanthropic get labeled (and sometimes self-labeled) "psychopaths".

I have no "empathy" for Donald Trump. I think he is a conceited arsehole and an exploitative person.

On the other hand, if Donald Trump is brutally killed in a horrible accident, such as being trampled by a trench roller, I will definitely feel a gut reaction of horror and disgust. It is that kind of "empathy" that actual psychopaths lack, not the more abstract sentiment of empathy. If Donald Trump is trampled by a trench roller, an actual psychopath will be unphased; he might find it interesting, or wonder what he can gain with it, but he wouldn't be able to see himself in the position of being trampled by a trench roller.

Plus, I think there is a growth in misanthropy in society. Which is only natural considering it is a capitalist society, based on the systematic forgetness of the contribution of actual human beings to our common welfare (there are people, I fear, that actually think of the supermarket as kind of jungle, where they go to hunt their lunches). And is probably heightened by they right discovering that victimism is politically and socially sustainable. From this point-of-view, claiming to be discriminated against is a bonus (particularly if such discrimination is bogus). What could make a more perfect match to arrogant Christians claiming they are being descriminated because they can no longer Bible-thump other people, than a psychopath claiming persectution?

And of course, there is the recent "meme" about 1% of the population being psychopathic, which probably emboldens other maladjusted (but far from psychopathic) people to self-declare as such.

Luís Henrique

[Wuggums47]

My father had something like this, but it went undiagnosed. He abused me. You can say it's dicrimination, but I don't want to be around the type of person described in that post. In most regards I support neurodiversity, and I personally have faced a great deal of discrimination by people who mistake my Schizoaffective disorder for psychopathy.