Why we SHOULD be quiet

[Kez]

Although we are not happy about the USA bombing nations in the middle east such as somalia and yemen, we shouldnt make too much of a noise, otherwise the arabs can use us as propaganda to aid their disgrtaceful governments.
Let us not forget that people like OSAMA fund terrorist squads which kill innocent civilians, a famous case being the funding of azeri squads who massacred thousands in Kharabakh.

Let us not side with the terrorists, just to be against the imperialist USA.

2 wrongs dont make a good
FUCK EM BOTH

comrade kamo

[Moskitto]

I must say I agree with you 100% on this for once.

[Kez]

WTF, u should always agree with me

For one day, as the red sun is setting, and shining upon the redstar behind me, my comrades around me will be shouting "HAIL KAMO GLORIOUS REVOLUTIONARY WHO SMASHED UP ALL CAPITALISM SINGLE HANDEDLY" :)

comrade kamo

[Mclaren]

Shouden't we unite against terroism or do you nought as thats the only way that you will get anywere

[Dreadnaht1]

Yes, all hail TavareeshKamo.

Or not. :)

Comrade Dread

[Derar]

Now u were being exactly like america ...... and calling all arabs terrorists !

Arabs aiding their governments !!!!?? what the fuck are u talking about ? do u think arabs are happy with their pro-american dictator governments !!!

and u gave an example , about one man !!! and accuse a whole nation for what a one man or one organization did , u r reminding me of Aerial sharon !

[Conghaileach]

from TavareeshKamo

Let us not forget that people like OSAMA fund terrorist squads which kill innocent civilians, a famous case being the funding of azeri squads who massacred thousands in Kharabakh.People like Dubya Bush also fund terrorist murder squads, such as in Columbia, but we don't going about calling all Americans terrorists.

You can't generalise an entire race, religion or nation based on the actions of a few.

[peaccenicked]

Let us not be silent at all. Let us aid arab governments in their propaganda even if we think they are down right scumbags to their own people. Do we want to stop these bombings or not?Let us tell the world that these bombings are outrageous and nothig to do with deafeating terrorism or defending democracy or promoting it. This is state terrorism.

[Kez]

You can aid nations you are ignorant about my friend.

When i mentioned arabs i thought i made it clear, that i meant the arabs of yemen, and the govt of somalia.

You are an idiot to fund organisations you know nothing about.

comrade kamo

[vox]

As Kamo said, two wrongs don't make a right.

Therefore, I am against the bombing of civilians. If oppressive governments seek to use my stance to support themselves, they fail, for I do not support oppressive governments.

To be quiet at this time isn't practical, for to be quiet indicates tacit approval of the bombings. Speaking out doesn't mean approval of the other, it means disapproval of the thing itself. Only through focused argument, not sloppy either/or thinking, can we seek justice.

vox

[Kez]

But surely if we learn from these imperialist campaigns, then in the future we have more ammo for our vocal fights.

To study now, is better to jump to conclusions, and to score own goals

comrade kamo

[peaccenicked]

I don't want to go into the tortured history of Somalia or Yemen at this point, nor do I deny the need for analysis
but staying quiet about state terrorism is cowardly and
scoring own goals means accomadating reactiony anti
arab feeling then I call that racism. I condemn terrorism
but is sloppy thinking to say that this war is nothing to do with terrorism. That is a disagreement I have with Chomsky even.
There are many articles on the web which point to this being America's Reichstag. Arthur Scargill also has made this point at public meetings. Bin Laden was already public enemy number one. It was all to easy to blame him.
There is a page on my site that lists documents that go a long way to proving this.

[vox]

Kamo,

I suppose our disagrement is about staying silent. I say that the Left needs to speak out against injustice at all times, regardless of what others may say about it. Constantly staying focused is difficult, to be sure, but to stay silent is to give in.

I spoke against the Taliban before Sept. 11, and no one cared. Now, people care. Suddenly, the Taliban is "evil." And, of course, any action is "proper" to defeat "evil."

Garbage.

You may as well paste a "Bush Supporter Since 911" bumpersticker on your forehead.

If it was wrong before, it's wrong now.

vox

[RedCeltic]

I have yet to see a Socialist or Communist group in the US who have not spoken out against both the Terrorist acts and the "War on Terrorism". I know fellow members of the Socialist Party USA have to constantly remind people that while we are against this war... we have a long standing record of condemning war... and in fact the party was founded partly on those principles as Eugene Debs himself was imprisoned for making anti War speaches in 1918.

We should be vocal by all means! While condemning terrorism and oppression, we should make it clear that war is not the answer to the world's problems. To bomb people who's only crime is to go to work every morning is horrific, baseless, and does nothing but creates more hatred of the US.

[vox]

Exactly, RedCeltic.

vox

[RedCeltic]

Good to see you back Vox.

[Anonymous]

While i dont aprove the killing of civilians i am of mixed minds about what happen in afganistan. Manily because i knew of the taliban long before 11 of september, and lets face it the should have bin removed for power a long time ago, there medival style fanatic goverment could and should not be tolerated. Massud was going nowhere and this US campaing while responsible for deaths and void of internation of otherwise leggality, did slove the problem rather quickly. There was war for 26 years in afganistan and if it has ended becoz of US intervention then i that is a wellcome result. No more taliban and no more war. Yes inocents died but how many would have died if the civil war in afgan continued?

[vox]

Good to be seen, RedCeltic. :)

By the way, and this really belongs in the music forum, but you might want to take a listen to the Dropkick Murphys.

vox

[Derar]

El_che , i agree that the taliban were fucken assholes and shold have been removed long time ago , but when i think about it , they had afganistan under one power , and there was no civil war , except the war with the soviets and the wars with the N. allience which were backed by the soviets and india and other countries ....
and as im seeing now ....... civil wars r just gonna start , between the different tribes that r part of the N.allience .
And thats what the US wants !

[Kez]

All i am saying, is that we should be careful what we say and what we do.
We shouldnt be used by the Taliban and pro-Taliban nations for their propaganda, to show that they have support even in the uk and US.

As for being pro-taliban, wtf, where do you get that from, i thought i made it clear that all taliban should be:
a)dead
b)re-educated

so hows that make me pro-taliban?

In any case, we should be careful on this delicate issue
does one protest against the govt now, or wait until they do something wrong? such as build pipelines thru afghan from uzbek.

comrade kamo

[Kez]

All i am saying, is that we should be careful what we say and what we do.
We shouldnt be used by the Taliban and pro-Taliban nations for their propaganda, to show that they have support even in the uk and US.

As for being pro-taliban, wtf, where do you get that from, i thought i made it clear that all taliban should be:
a)dead
b)re-educated

so hows that make me pro-taliban?

In any case, we should be careful on this delicate issue
does one protest against the govt now, or wait until they do something wrong? such as build pipelines thru afghan from uzbek.

comrade kamo

[peaccenicked]

Who in their right mind thinks this war is about being pro
taliban or not. This movement which was born in pakistani refugee camps as an ideal right wing bastardisation of islam,came to power to do a job for the US to kill the progressive movement. They actually sought to curtail poppy growing.Its rival the Northern alliance is a Russian influenced rival whose record in human rights abuse and murder is close to that of the Taliban, The US only broke links with the Taliban in 1999.
Somalia is as divided as Afghanistan with waring sides and no coherent overall society. The US has stopped
the internet in Somalia which is the only way foriegn money can be transferred for some. Yemem is complaining about its own terrorists whom it says it is bombing itself but the locals are saying it has the signature of a US bombing. How careful do we need to be in explaining things we believe to be true? We have to challenge attitudes not pussyfoot with prejudices.
The crime against humanity 9/11.A crime that was made worse by subsequent events. It was used as an excuse
for a war that was planned four years ago according to Mike Ruppert http://www.copvcia.com. This war is not about just oil,this site gives you a diagram of the US game http://www.kimsoft.com/2001/usgame.htm
Castro to believes it is about more than oil.
this is at http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/taketwo.htm
How careful do we have to be in explaining the deaths of all innocents horrifies us. Surely what we are saying is the death of all innocents in this is horrifying and
that the evidence that points to american complicity in 9/11 will be very hard for right wingers to take.

[flames of the flag]

fuck silence!
we have freedom of speach so lets use it, why would you ever wqant to keep quiet.

[Soledad Brother]

For me personally being quiet about things that i view as wrong is not an option. No matter where you stand others will use your views and twist them to fit thier own personal needs, be it arab states or the united states etc. Just because I dont support the u.s bombing nations in the middle east when they feel like it does not mean that i support osama bin laden and people like him.

We should not be silent because we fear that our voices will be twisted and spun to promote unjust causes.. apprehension of that happening should make our voices stronger not weaker.. as we articulate to the world .. JUST WHERE WE STAND.

PEACE

[Guest]

You guys are mistaken about a great many things. But it occurs to me that the biggest misconception that you all are laboring under is that anyone anywhere gives two shits about what you think. You're talking as if the official position of the Che Lives crew is going to be used as "propaganda," and as such it will decide the fate of nations. Are you serious? Your bellyaching doesn't even make a noise in a sytem that's designed to hear you. I think you should all get over your delusions of grandeur (Tavareesh) or your pure unadulterated arrogance (that vox character), and realize that nobody in nations that have real problems cares about what the Perenially Indignant crybabies in the Western World think.

Aside from vox's posturing (is this guy for real?), my favorite quote on this thread is:
"but when i think about it , they had afganistan under one power , and there was no civil war , except the war with the soviets and the wars with the N. allience which were backed by the soviets and india and other countries"
Yeah...it was peaceful except for the wars. There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings about Afghan history here. Like this, as well:

"This movement which was born in pakistani refugee camps as an ideal right wing bastardisation of islam,came to power to do a job for the US to kill the progressive movement. They actually sought to curtail poppy growing.Its rival the Northern alliance is a Russian influenced rival whose record in human rights abuse and murder is close to that of the Taliban, The US only broke links with the Taliban in 1999."
Who the hell told you THAT?

In any event, I think that Tavareesh has a point. In my mind, he has presented the fundamental difference between people who want to get things done and teenage idealists who just want to claim some sort of moral highground.

[peaccenicked]

if you are saying no one is listening to people who take the moral high ground that is not true. most people do not support this war look at http://www.urban75.com/Action/news144.html
if you are saying the us government and its allies and supporters are not listening to the moral high ground that is also not true. If it was nt there would have been no need for fascism or macarthyism . I think people who contribute to this website intelligently think they are olnly a very small part of the human effort to save this planet from ultimate destruction.

[Guest]

"It found that apart from the US, Israel and India a majority of people in every country surveyed preferred extradition and trial of suspects to a US attack."
That's wonderful. And how did they propose that we extradite and try suspects without going into Afghanistan?

[vox]

Guest,

Apparently, you think what is being said here is important or you wouldn't have taken the time to respond, yes? It's always amusing to me when people inform us that nothing we say matters, for they had to take the time to read the posts and respond. If it doesn't matter, why would you be here at all?

But then, using your own reasoning, nothing anyone says matters, correct? If the system is designed to hear people, but it is unresponsive to our voices, then it's the system that is flawed, not the voice.

Oh, and thanks for the compliment. When I'm singled out for an attack on my character, it means that I'm doing something right, because it means you are incapable of answering my posts. You may continue to pound on the table. I'll continue to pound on the facts. :)

vox

[Guest]

Name one "fact" that you've presented in this thread.

And there's a difference between me sitting here and amusing myself by playing with you (which is not unlike picking the brain of a talented 10 year old) and the idea that national-level regimes are going to "use [your] stance to support themselves." Do you deny this?

[Guest]

Sorry for the multiple posts, but I was so anxious to defend myself that I missed this little nugget of wisdom:

"If the system is designed to hear people, but it is unresponsive to our voices, then it's the system that is flawed, not the voice."
The fact that nobody (in the scheme of things) cares about what you say, vox, is not due to any fundamental flaw in the system, but rather due to the fact that you're completely out of your mind. The fact is that you are marginal. The bulk of the society has heard your arguments before, and seen them in action elsewhere, and decided that you're a fucking kook. Now, you might say that that's because everyone else is stupid and uneducated, and that you're the lone pillar of pure independent thought in the Western World. I'd say that you're a fucking kook.

[peaccenicked]

This guest is a war monger who wants to brow beat us
with our weakness in influence and size. But that does nt work. Lets look at the facts . this war is illegal.
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew36.htm let see how this low moral lout answers.

[Guest]

I will answer how I always answer:

If international law was worth the paper it's written on, you would have a point. But it's not.

So the only tool we have to evaluate the actions of the United States in Afghanistan is our own objective moral judgement. And we see that, as Ms. Cohn points out, that the US took time (three weeks) deliberating how best to fix the horrible situation. We used limited force directed at military targets, and we have succeeded in removing an oppresive regime from power and have taken the first steps towards establishing a fair system of government. In the meantime we've dispensed thousands of tons of food and medicine to the starving people of Afghanistan. Now, peacenik, I know that you have a knee-jerk reaction to the falling of bombs, irrespective of the causes or effects. But those of us who live in the real world know that sometimes the only way to get things done is with force. If you read the article you linked to, specifically the part about the UN provisions for the settlement of international conflicts, you'll see how ridiculous they are. Sue Afghanistan? C'mon, peacenik, I admire your innocence, but don't be naive.

[vox]

Hey there guest,

Aside from the name-calling, you don't seem to have much to say. Fact is, most people haven't reviewed Marx for themselves, and boards like this show that there is a great interest in socialism. Indeed, there are boards like this all over the Net. Please don't confuse this with Authoritarian Collectivism. If you do, you will not have made an argument against socialism, you will only show your profound ignorance of socialism.

As for the facts, I've spread them all over this board and you're free to look them up. This thread is about how the Left should respond. You do understand this, right?

Oh, and if this is all you have for "amusement," perhaps you should think about reading a book or getting a hobby. Actually, I'm concerned, because something that amuses you should not cause anxiety, and this board, by your own admission, made you "anxious." I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, because I'm so nice, and assume that you know the difference between "anxious" and "eager." Perhaps you need to switch to decaf?

vox

[Guest]

Actually boards like this provide tons of hours of perverse entertainment for individuals as myself. I can't wait for you to twist that statement around.

This board doesn't reveal interest in socialism. Haven't you noticed. You have a closed forum, which you put up so that you wouldn't have to argue, just type and pat each others asses. This place is a refuge. You might think indeed, it is a safe harbor from the intellectual void of western civilization, but as the other guest pointed out, most of western civilization has heard what you have to say, and seen what you propose we do. They're not intellectually barren, they simply think you're a "kook"

[peaccenicked]

"Our own objective moral judgement" ie taking the law into our own hands.There was no war objective about
democracy in Afghanistan it was to get Bin laden, so far that has not happened. Will the war goal ending terrorism by doing a wild west act on Afghanistan happen?How niave is that? Suing Afghanistan to obey international law was at least a legal way that could have given America the high moral ground and thus added to world pressure on the Taliban who are now no longer able to give bin laden up.
why have you no alternative to war?
And why do you want to convince the peace movement that there is no alternative to war?
This is sad and amusing but I cannot really laugh at
these problems but I see the funny side.
It seems that you want to be in the minority who
puts the high moral ground with the Pentagon.
This is the only 'real' world you live in.

[Guest]

I don't think we want to convince the peace movement that there is no alternative to war. I don't know if you noticed, you don't matter, and what is worse is that you don't matter in a system you're suppossed to matter in. Could it be because you are THAT wrong, I think so.

[Moskitto]

If you wanted peace and democracy in Afganistan why didn't you do it 20 years ago?

[Derar]

Quote: from Guest on 7:42 pm on Dec. 23, 2001
And we see that, as Ms. Cohn points out, that the US took time (three weeks) deliberating how best to fix the horrible situation. We used limited force directed at military targets, and we have succeeded in removing an oppresive regime from power and have taken the first steps towards establishing a fair system of government. In the meantime we've dispensed thousands of tons of food and medicine to the starving people of Afghanistan


The best way to fix the situation !! u mean random carpet bombing and missiles with planted uranium ( or whatever its name ) , also biochemical weapons , napalm missiles and cluster bombs ...... nice way to fix the situation !

and Yeah u used a limited force !! of men maybe , but not bombs ........

also the US did a great job by dropping food ...... in minefileds ofcourse , and with a very meal a free bomb comes with it !

[CommieBastard]

Guest Posted on 9:00 pm on Dec. 23, 2001
Actually boards like this provide tons of hours of perverse entertainment for individuals as myself. I can't wait for you to twist that statement around.

This board doesn't reveal interest in socialism. Haven't you noticed. You have a closed forum, which you put up so that you wouldn't have to argue, just type and pat each others asses. This place is a refuge. You might think indeed, it is a safe harbor from the intellectual void of western civilization, but as the other guest pointed out, most of western civilization has heard what you have to say, and seen what you propose we do. They're not intellectually barren, they simply think you're a "kook"


There is plenty of argument in the Commie Club, and absolutely no arse-patting. You make that statement without ever having seen what happens in there, and i can tell you this: we leftists are perfectly capable of arguing amongst ourselves, and do it often. The Commie Club was set up so as to ensure that argument between leftists which might actually advance leftist ideas didnt get caught up in the left vs right argument, thus preventing any meaningful debate.

[peaccenicked]

our guest is very confused, I am beginning to think that he knows that he has lost the argument and is reverting to cheap abuse. He might have had his feelings hurt but I am sorry the truth comes first. if you were not trying to convince of the validity of this war
you could have fooled me.The truth is everybody matters even you and it is hard to live in this sometimes confusing world but I think you have come to the wrong place for peace of mind.

[Kez]

More to the point, its naive to think that we should always protest about america, we should only protest when it is in the lefts intrests. Killing Osama wouldnt make tow flying fukks of differences for the left, for it was the taliban and the likes who killed so many soviet soldiers

GLORY TO THE RED ARMY
comrade kamo

[CommieBastard]

You are right, we shouldnt always protest about america, but this is one time we should be.
You say the left's interests? but who is this 'left'? The Lefts interests are the interests of the people, and i have no problem with Osama Bin Laden receiving punishment, tho i would prefer rehabilitation. However, what i really do mind is the random bombing and killing of innocent afghan's...

[Kez]

By the left i mean socialists, commies and greens, u know the crazy bunch!

*hums so this is christmas*

anyway, ah fuck it
MERRY CHRISTMAS!

comrade kamo

[CommieBastard]

But the interests of the socialists commies and the greens are the interests of the people (and the environment)

And MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU TOO!
*Hugs the Kamorade*

[booga]

Quote: from vox on 5:32 pm on Dec. 23, 2001
Guest,

Apparently, you think what is being said here is important or you wouldn't have taken the time to respond, yes? It's always amusing to me when people inform us that nothing we say matters, for they had to take the time to read the posts and respond. If it doesn't matter, why would you be here at all?

But then, using your own reasoning, nothing anyone says matters, correct? If the system is designed to hear people, but it is unresponsive to our voices, then it's the system that is flawed, not the voice.

Oh, and thanks for the compliment. When I'm singled out for an attack on my character, it means that I'm doing something right, because it means you are incapable of answering my posts. You may continue to pound on the table. I'll continue to pound on the facts. :)

vox


vox, take the attack against your character as just that "an attack". and if your doing anything right its this; speaking your mind. since when is this a freaking "crime" and yes your voice does matter. gee what the heck does the world expect? if anything we should feel free to come to a place and discuss our issues and feelings about whats going on in this bastard world. hey at least we are not the ones taking it out in other ways (bad or destructive), we are merely trying to speak our minds in a positive and constructive manner (although it doesnt always appear that way), but hey i think everyone is doing okay considering the nature of this forum.

i think the "guest" is the one with the real "issues" otherwise why doesnt he reveal himself? unless he's a cop or something...

[gogo gomez]

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO THE WORLD! AND A HAPPY PEACEFUL NEW YEAR!

LETS PUT THE PAST BEHIND US...FIGHT LIKE HELL CAUSE BABY WE'RE GOING WORLD WIDE!

[I Will Deny You]

"and i have no problem with Osama Bin Laden receiving punishment, tho i would prefer rehabilitation."
-CommieBastard
In most cases I'd agree, but you can only be responsible for so many thousands of deaths before you're beyond rehabilitation.

Laws saying that the US can secretly assassinate it's "enemies" do scare me, though. Speaking of which, I'm not sure if anyone has posted this quote from Che since I haven't seen this whole thread, but:
"But wherever there is a question of defending a just cause, there we will cast our votes—even on the side of the United States if that country should ever assume the role of defending just causes."
Just on the topic of protesting against the US and all that.

[peaccenicked]

Why do you think Osama is guilty?
What do you think causes terrorism ?
Why is the death penalty ever justified?
remember that these questions presuppose any question of punishment.

[MJM]

You raise a good point peaccenicked I don't think it was bin laden at all.
The evidence is so poor they won't show the public because then we'll see how crap it is.

[Anonymous]

If international law was worth the paper it's written on, you would have a point. But it's not.

So the only tool we have to evaluate the actions of the United States in Afghanistan is our own objective moral judgement. And we see that, as Ms. Cohn points out, that the US took time (three weeks) deliberating how best to fix the horrible situation. We used limited force directed at military targets, and we have succeeded in removing an oppresive regime from power and have taken the first steps towards establishing a fair system of government. In the meantime we've dispensed thousands of tons of food and medicine to the starving people of Afghanistan. Now, peacenik, I know that you have a knee-jerk reaction to the falling of bombs, irrespective of the causes or effects. But those of us who live in the real world know that sometimes the only way to get things done is with force. If you read the article you linked to, specifically the part about the UN provisions for the settlement of international conflicts, you'll see how ridiculous they are. Sue Afghanistan? C'mon, peacenik, I admire your innocence, but don't be naive.

The agression on afgan was unjustified and international law should mean something. Granted that it doesnt, that wont stop me from saying that it should mean something. What did you think you where giving me some news? your the fool. You are the fool because like me you know international law doesnt mean shit, you know the US commits want crimes it wants and its unacountable for them, you know might makes right (Isreali/palestinian conflict for example). You know all this like i do and you say nothing! your just as much an accessory to murder thats what the fuck you and others like you are.


You say what i say does not matter, well i got news for you i does matter. It matters as much as anybody elses opinion matters and if the majority isnt with me then thats the way it is, but its my duty to my self as a person and to society that i should express my views and i do. So if i think something is not right i fight for that belief and thats what everybody should do because thats the only way things move foward.


As for afganistan, they wanted to talk and possibly they would have extredited Bin laden but the US refused to talk and made an ultimato, then it atacked... Maybe they would have refused to cooperate but that option shoul have bin explored frist under internation law and under UN supervison possibly. And dont give me any of your hypocrisy about removing opressive regimes, you dont give 2 shits about that and your actions prove it.

[peaccenicked]

A strange thread .........two years old.

[Kez]

lol,
i used to be such a twat,
im gonna go dig some other old shit up

[peaccenicked]

Hmm might be funny.

[Conghaileach]

On the first page is one of my first posts on this forum.

It's strange to think that even back then I was very ideologically sound.

:biggrin:

(Edited by CiaranB at 9:14 pm on May 19, 2003)