Fascism or White Supremacy?

[Redistribute the Rep]

What exactly is the difference between a fascist and a white supremacist? Is it even possible to be a white supremacist but not a fascist? And from what I understand there were some fascist states that did not promote state racism, but then what would define these as fascist states?

EDIT: I realize that non whites can be fascists, so this question sounds a bit Eurocentric now that I think about it. Sorry about that.

[Sinister Intents]

A fascist is someone who upholds the ideas of Franco and Mussolini, while a white supremacist is someone who upholds views that whites are the superior race, and they can be fascists, but not always, some conservatives and liberals can be labeled white supremacists or racial supremacists. However, Hitler and the NSDAP helped to pioneer fascism white a white supremacist/nationalist attitude.

All this coming from things I read a long time ago, I would really love to come back to this thread and see corrections to what I've said, and what others will say.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere aboout the Italian fascists allowing escaped Jews to escape the Nazi's and the Italians telling the Germans that the Italians are a more civilized people. I'm pretty sure Mussolini initially wasn't a racial supremacist, but you should look into what the ITalian fascists did in Ethiopia

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Jim-Crow era Mississippi was fairly white-supremacist without being fascist. The answer, in any case, will depend on how you understand fascism. To us Trotskyists it is a political movement that relies on the mass mobilisation of plebeian elements - chiefly the petite bourgeoisie but also some strata of the proletariat and so on - in pursuit of a reactionary policy. Mississippi was not fascist, not simply because fascism hadn't been invented yet in the early Jim Crow era, but because there was no mass political mobilisation of non-bourgeois elements, simply the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and some remnant landowner elements.

The myth of "non-racist" fascists is, however, just that, a myth. Mussolini, Vargas and Franco could race-bait with the best of them.

[Sinred]

White supremecy is a form of fascism.
From wikipedia:



The Encyclopedia of Marxism defines fascism as "right-wing, fiercely nationalist, subjectivist in philosophy, and totalitarian in practice", and identifies it as "an extreme reactionary form of capitalist government."[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#cite_note-marxists.org-38) It lists nine fundamental characteristics of fascism:


Right Wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Right_politics): Fascists are fervently against: Marxism, Socialism, Anarchism, Communism, Environmentalism; etc – in essence, they are against the progressive left in total, including moderate lefts (social democrats, etc). Fascism is an extreme right wing ideology, though it can be opportunistic.
Nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism): Fascism places a very strong emphasis on patriotism and nationalism. Criticism of the nation's main ideals, especially war, is lambasted as unpatriotic at best, and treason at worst. State propaganda consistently broadcasts threats of attack, while justifying pre-emptive war. Fascism invariably seeks to instill in its people the warrior mentality: to always be vigilant, wary of strangers and suspicious of foreigners.
Hierarchy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy): Fascist society is ruled by a righteous leader, who is supported by an elite secret vanguard of capitalists. Hierarchy is prevalent throughout all aspects of society – every street, every workplace, every school, will have its local Hitler, part police-informer, part bureaucrat – and society is prepared for war at all times. The absolute power of the social hierarchy prevails over everything, and thus a totalitarian society is formed. Representative government is acceptable only if it can be controlled and regulated, direct democracy (e.g. Communism) is the greatest of all crimes. Any who oppose the social hierarchy of fascism will be imprisoned or executed.
Anti-equality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism): Fascism loathes the principles of economic equality and disdains equality between immigrant and citizen. Some forms of fascism extend the fight against equality into other areas: gender, sexual, minority or religious rights, for example.
Religious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion): Fascism contains a strong amount of reactionary religious beliefs, harking back to times when religion was strict, potent, and pure. Nearly all Fascist societies are Christian, and are supported by Catholic and Protestant churches.
Capitalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism): Fascism does not require revolution to exist in capitalist society: fascists can be elected into office (though their disdain for elections usually means manipulation of the electoral system). They view parliamentary and congressional systems of government to be inefficient and weak, and will do their best to minimize its power over their policy agenda. Fascism exhibits the worst kind of capitalism where corporate power is absolute, and all vestiges of workers' rights are destroyed.
War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War): Fascism is capitalism at the stage of impotent imperialism. War can create markets that would not otherwise exist by wreaking massive devastation on a society, which then requires reconstruction! Fascism can thus "liberate" the survivors, provide huge loans to that society so fascist corporations can begin the process of rebuilding.
Voluntarist Ideology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntarism_(action)): Fascism adopts a certain kind of “voluntarism;” they believe that an act of will, if sufficiently powerful, can make something true. Thus all sorts of ideas about racial inferiority, historical destiny, even physical science, are supported by means of violence, in the belief that they can be made true. It is this sense that Fascism is subjectivist.
Anti-Modern (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tradition): Fascism loathes all kinds of modernism, especially creativity in the arts, whether acting as a mirror for life (where it does not conform to the Fascist ideal), or expressing deviant or innovative points of view. Fascism invariably burns books and victimises artists; artists who do not promote the fascists ideals are seen as “decadent.” Fascism is hostile to broad learning and interest in other cultures, since such pursuits threaten the dominance of fascist myths. The peddling of conspiracy theories is usually substituted for the objective study of history.[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism#cite_note-marxists.org-38)

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

There are several such lists, and all of them make the same basic mistake - they try to analyse fascism in terms of the ostensible ideology of fascists. But, first of all, this is not how Marxists analyse historical movements - we do not consider Bismarck or Ebert, Spengler or Martov socialists simply because they proclaimed themselves to be socialists. Second, the actual stated ideology of fascist movements was all over the place. Even the same party - the Italian fascists - would completely change their ideology several times (from the FAI to the PNF to the PFR). The original fascist programme was able to fool even people like Gramsci into talking about the "revolutionary programme of the fascists".

[TheSocialistMetalhead]

A fascist is someone who upholds the ideas of Franco and Mussolini

It's not completely accurate to call Franco a fascist. He was definitely a nationalist and extremely authoritarian and he worked with the fascists of the Falange but he wasn't really an ideologist.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Trying to create a solid, static ideology out of historical fascism is like trying to handle liquid mercury.

Historically, fascists (for lack of a better word) have always tried to advertise themselves as the ultimate, all-inclusive (sort of) political group. You can see this in the original, formal name of the Nazi Party: the National Socialist German Workers Party. It's a mish-mash of terms that are associated with both the right (National, German) and the left (Socialist, Worker). It'd be like if an American group decided to call itself the "Democratic Republican Liberal Conservative Party".

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Trying to create a solid, static ideology out of historical fascism is like trying to handle liquid mercury.

Historically, fascists (for lack of a better word) have always tried to advertise themselves as the ultimate, all-inclusive (sort of) political group. You can see this in the original, formal name of the Nazi Party: the National Socialist German Workers Party. It's a mish-mash of terms that are associated with both the right (National, German) and the left (Socialist, Worker). It'd be like if an American group decided to call itself the "Democratic Republican Liberal Conservative Party".

Perhaps this is besides the point, but the Democratic Party started as the Democratic-Republican Party and there are quite a few Liberal-Conservative parties, particularly in North Europe.

As for the National "Socialists", though, recall that the term "socialism" had already been dragged through the mud at that point. In Germany, for a large section of the population it signified any state interference in economic matters, and had nothing to do with the socialisation of the means of production. Bismarck, the Kathedersozialist group and State "Socialists", Hindenburg, Rathenau, Ebert, Spengler - all of these considered themselves to be "socialists".

Generally, though, I agree - we should focus, not on the idiotic, changing and contradictory ideology of fascism but on its material effects on the class struggle.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Fascism happens when the "middle class" petit bourgeoisie become disillusioned and start doing poorly financially. It is a desperate reaction to protect private property. The working class is also disillusioned because fascist propagandists divide them by what constitutes their particular "nation."

Instead of the bourgeoisie exploiting the proletariat, the fascists tell the proletariat that they would have jobs and money if it weren't for the Jews and the immigrants. Working class people fall for this a lot because it's such a simple scapegoat. It is so easy to see the "others" as the enemy.

Then of course, the bourgeoisie (excluding the petit bourgeoisie) can profit off of fascism quite nicely. Fascists are union-busters. Fascists make contracts with corporations as long as it also benefits the fascist state. This also benefits the corporations of course because they have a contract now that guarantees them profits without the threat of unions.

Hitler wasn't opposed because the neoliberal governments thought he was a bad guy. He was opposed because it was profitable.

Anyway, white nationalism is a way more simple ideology than fascism. It's basically just "anti racist is code for anti white" and "race mixing is white genocide" and "we hate everyone else."