Demographics of transwomen vs transmen on Revleft

[synthesis]

So I've been really wary of posting this topic for some time, but by this point my (pseudo-)intellectual curiosity has outpaced my apprehension.

Over the last couple years I have noticed at least a dozen notable transwomen posting here - whose names I am obviously not going to list - whereas I can only think of one transman who posts here regularly.

Of course the numbers in themselves are not significant - unless it's relating to the amenability of the board's environment - but the ratio is what interests me. Is it that transmen are less likely to reveal their gender identity? Or that transmen are statistically less likely to visit forums? (I have no idea if those statements are true or significant, just speculating on reasons why my "statistics" might be skewed.)

Or is it something else? Now I am by no means inviting people to provide answers based in any sort of essentialism or stereotypes of gender or sexuality. What I am curious about is the way that people are socialized as a certain gender in their childhood while becoming increasingly aware that those labels don't fit them, and the political directions towards which these conflicts might take them.

I have my own conception of why this might be, but I'd like to hear what the rest of you have to say first. I decided to post this in Non-Political even though it is obviously a political discussion; this is just because I don't feel that discussions about RevLeft itself should be posted in the political forums, but if anyone disagrees I have absolutely no problem with it being moved.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Current estimates are that trans women outnumber trans men by at least 3-to-1.

[synthesis]

Current estimates are that trans women outnumber trans men by at least 3-to-1.

Huh. That's not something I would have guessed. I always just assumed the numbers were equal.

[Dagoth Ur]

I don't think it's right to look at transwomen and transmen as people coming from the same, opposing, place. Just talking to transpeople you realize that most of the causes for their "gender dysphoria" are only as similar as wanting to be the opposing gender.

In some ways it is like the distinction between gay men and lesbians, and their ratios relative to their own hetero populations.

[BIXX]

I personally have met a far larger amount of transwomen than transmen in real life so I assumed that for some reason it was more common to be openly trans for transwomen, not that it was necessarily more common to be a transwoman though.

[Dagoth Ur]

I've seen more butch lesbians than transwomen and being butch is nearly the same as being a transman to a lot of people (so I'm not sure if being a transman is less acceptable to be open about). Transwomen are way more prone to being victims of male violence as well.

Oh and just to head off anyone who wants to accuse me of saying butch lesbians are the same thing as transmen: that is not what I'm saying at all.

[BIXX]

I've seen more butch lesbians than transwomen and being butch is nearly the same as being a transman to a lot of people (so I'm not sure if being a transman is less acceptable to be open about). Transwomen are way more prone to being victims of male violence as well.

Oh and just to head off anyone who wants to accuse me of saying butch lesbians are the same thing as transmen: that is not what I'm saying at all.


See, that's not how it is where I live. Where I love it is clearly understood that being a butch lesbian and being a transman are two entirely different things (from my experience).

[Dagoth Ur]

Yeah I'm from Oklahoma. They don't even understand what trans people are. Most dudes think girls like me are just perverts that are trying to trick them into being gay (which is a huge part of why they are so violent towards us). I'm literally serious, this is how a significant segment of Americans think. And besides my point was about how in the mind of most squares they wouldn't see a distinction between a butch lesbian and a transman, hence being a transman shouldn't be that much more troublesome socially than being a butch lesbian (which is troublesome socially let's make no mistake).

I have to ask also where are you from? Because outside a few enclaves on the West Coast understanding of even basic trans-issues are completely misunderstood.

[synthesis]

I don't think it's right to look at transwomen and transmen as people coming from the same, opposing, place. Just talking to transpeople you realize that most of the causes for their "gender dysphoria" are only as similar as wanting to be the opposing gender.

I don't think they are coming from the same place, or at least that wasn't a conscious thought I had. I just assumed that if the factor(s) that produce transgenderism are in some way biological/physiological then they would be spread equally among the population. If that is what you're arguing against then I would want to hear more about this.


In some ways it is like the distinction between gay men and lesbians, and their ratios relative to their own hetero populations.

Well, that's another thing; we have a lot of posters who identify as gay cis-men but very few, as far as I know, who identify as lesbian cis-women. Are there numerically more of the former than the latter in the general population, as I now know appears to be the case with transgender distribution?

Because, and this might be an objectionable supposition, it seems to me that there would be parallels between the ratio of transwomen to transmen in that area. (i.e. that it would be related to the social acceptability of assigned males identifying as in some way "feminine" versus that of assigned females identifying as in some way "masculine")

[Dagoth Ur]

I don't think they are coming from the same place, or at least that wasn't a conscious thought I had. I just assumed that if the factor(s) that produce transgenderism are in some way biological/physiological then they would be spread equally among the population. If that is what you're arguing against then I would want to hear more about this.
I don't buy biological excuses for transgenderism. Gender Dysphoria is one of those attempts to take a thing that is only a logical result of the gender binary, and explain it away with errant genetics/mental illness. It's one step away from trying to engineer "correctly" gendered children.

And honestly I see no reason to believe that my DNA in the middle ages would have ever realized it wanted to be a girl. My DNA has nothing to do with social gender roles.


Well, that's another thing; we have a lot of posters who identify as gay cis-men but very few, as far as I know, who identify as lesbian cis-women. Are there numerically more of the former than the latter in the general population, as I now know appears to be the case with transgender distribution?
I don't think most white people who are in line with their gender need to announce they are what they are. I don't like this cis prefix. We should be trying to get rid of the trans prefix, not legitimize it with a counter-prefix. This is why I also oppose the extreme over-classification of gender. Most of these labels are things people only need to know if you are getting up close. And again this broadened labeling system only serves to justify the whole damn thing. I'd rather nobody even realized there was a distinction between these things (outside of that people are different).

Also admitting you're a white gay guy is like the new version of being the cool token negro. Lot's of gay men are a walking talking parody of queer liberation. Not surprising that you'd come across people admitting to something that is considered socially hip. I'm not demeaning gay white men, or saying they can't be progressive, but they [as a group] are a good example of how expansive racism and sexism are.


Because, and this might be an objectionable supposition, it seems to me that there would be parallels between the ratio of transwomen to transmen in that area. (i.e. that it would be related to the social acceptability of assigned males identifying as in some way "feminine" versus that of assigned females identifying as in some way "masculine")
That's reasonable. I'd say in the US that it is less likely to murdered as a woman who acts too masculine than as a man who acts too feminine. Transwomen are getting more and more accepted but this is still the reality in most parts of this country that I've ever been too (which is most of it).

[synthesis]

I don't buy biological excuses for transgenderism. Gender Dysphoria is one of those attempts to take a thing that is only a logical result of the gender binary, and explain it away with errant genetics/mental illness. It's one step away from trying to engineer "correctly" gendered children.

And honestly I see no reason to believe that my DNA in the middle ages would have ever realized it wanted to be a girl. My DNA has nothing to do with social gender roles.

So what is the purpose of SRS then? I mean, according to this framework.


I don't like this cis prefix. We should be trying to get rid of the trans prefix, not legitimize it with a counter-prefix.

Actually, I edited the prefix in after thinking about it and now I'm not quite sure why I did it. It's more or less irrelevant to what I was trying to say.

[Dagoth Ur]

So what is the purpose of SRS then? I mean, according to this framework.
Personally I don't think SRS and transgenderism are logical partners and I think some people jump into surgery with some real false expectations. I wouldn't get SRS for a host of reasons, namely that I could never afford it and also because I don't see how manipulating the form of my genitalia really makes me more feminine.

There is something messed up about how every square I've ever told that I'm trans has immediately jumped to "so are you gonna do/when is you SRS?" type questions. [/srs rant]

SRS does have psychological effects for many transpeople as they've focused heavily on how their genitals deny their view of themselves. I've heard plenty of transgirls talk about hating their penis, when I always more hated my facial hair and flat chest. That's the whole point of any medical answer for transgenderism, dealing with the problem that exists. Genetics are meaningless to this pursuit.


Actually, I edited the prefix in after thinking about it and now I'm not quite sure why I did it. It's more or less irrelevant to what I was trying to say.
That's fair and I wasn't attacking you for using them. It's just I really oppose the tendency and so many comrades fall for it.