what's your opinion on unisex restrooms? [Archive]

Rosa Partizan

25th May 2014, 22:06

Hrafn

25th May 2014, 22:12

I would argue that there need to be unisex restrooms, but also non-unisex such at the same time. I used to view the male-female divide as bizarre, a remnant of Victorian morality, but I've come to realize they - especially in places like bars, clubs, etc. - provide a very, very needed safe space for women.

Edit: But no, I don't view my opinion on this as in any way conclusive. I don't really have much of a say, not being transgendered, female, etc.

Diirez

25th May 2014, 22:12

I think they should have both a unisex bathroom and a male and female bathroom or a unisex bathroom and private unisex bathrooms. Those who feel uncomfortable using a unisex bathroom can use the other bathrooms.

Lynx

25th May 2014, 22:15

The only unisex restrooms I have seen are designed to be used by one person at a time. Accessibility by the public is asking for trouble. Getting insurance for the premises may also be a problem.

DOOM

25th May 2014, 22:16

Yeah, serious question. Some months ago, when I returned to the autonomous venue I had used to chill out, but hadn't been there for 2-3 months, they had altered the restrooms and there were suddenly 2 unisex restrooms instead of a male and a female one. At first, I didn't realize, until I saw a guy leaving the restroom that had used to be the female one. Somehow I felt uncomfortable to check my make up next to a guy washing his hands, but the transgender-argument (transgender folks doesn't feel excluded with this kind of toilets) outdid every feeling of uneasiness. However, I feel that this wouldn't work everywhere, for assault and harassment reasons. To me, it's a different thing if you do this at a pro-feminist, alternative venue or at some shady dive. So, what do you think? Under which circumstances do you think that unisex restrooms are a good idea? Do you know many places with this type of restrooms? Did you have mixed feelings at first?
Exactly what I thought. It really depends on the setting. An unisex restroom in a - let's say pub - would be just a terribly stupid idea. However, I understand the feelings of transpeople, it must be really depressing to be excluded by both genders, restroom-wise. But I'm afraid I don't know a solution that satisfies transpeople and protects women from rape-attacks/sexism.

Quail

25th May 2014, 22:42

There are gender neutral toilets at my student union, and I think they're generally a good idea. I'm happy to use them and I think it's really important that people who might not feel safe using male/female toilets have somewhere safe to go to the toilet. I might feel uncomfortable using gender neutral toilets in a bar or something though, because there is already a lot of harassment from drunk men so I'd probably feel a bit on edge. In an ideal world there would be no problem with just having gender neutral toilets everywhere.

consuming negativity

25th May 2014, 22:58

We had two singular restrooms, one male and one female. They were both turned into unisex restrooms. Everybody still used either the male or female restrooms accordingly, so they were turned back into male and female restrooms.

I'm really not sure why a single person bathroom needs male/female distinctions, but there you go. People didn't want to be seen walking into what was once the designated opposite-sex bathroom. Humans :rolleyes:

Devrim

25th May 2014, 23:00

Trap Queen Voxxy

25th May 2014, 23:01

Idunno, even in a non-bar setting I think it's weird for me atleast. Idc either way.

ruth

27th May 2014, 11:12

I went into a restaurant/bar that had these. I hated it. I don't care if it is a totally separate toilet with proper walls and doors, but not in cubicles.

These might be better for Trans people, but they ignore the fact that some men do sexually harass women. I can just imagine drunk guys trying to peep through teh bottom of a cubicle and thinking it is funny.

I also worry for women with small children. I have been in womne's toilets many times where a small toddler opens the cubicle door, leaving their mum exposed to those outside. Embarassing enough when it is women who see, but when there are men as well, it would be awful for her.

Also those who already use uni sex toilets with cubicles - don't you get embarassed when walking to the sink with blood on your hands? Or washing out a mooncup in the sink?

And if all toilets were unisex toilets, my elderly gran would simply not have used any public toilet.

Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk

27th May 2014, 11:43

i think it should be a choice. there should be a third 'unisex' restroom for those who feel comfortable using one. the fact is that many people don't and this should be respected. there are creeps out there who will utilize such opportunities and, having standard unisex restrooms isn't going to solve the issue - patriarchy itself needs to be dismantled and its hard to see how unisex restrooms are a method towards this in themselves.

Left Voice

27th May 2014, 12:26

Unisex toilets are fine by me. Gender-specific toilets are fine too (though in such cases, a separate unisex toilet should be encouraged).

The real problem is people who disagree with trans people using the toilet of their gender-identity. Such as a recent case at Leeds University where a trans lady was abused by other girls in the female toilets (they even grabbed her breasts, clear sexual assault in any other context), to the point where security was called. Fuck transphobes and gender essentialists.

Quail

27th May 2014, 13:21

I also worry for women with small children. I have been in womne's toilets many times where a small toddler opens the cubicle door, leaving their mum exposed to those outside. Embarassing enough when it is women who see, but when there are men as well, it would be awful for her.

Also those who already use uni sex toilets with cubicles - don't you get embarassed when walking to the sink with blood on your hands? Or washing out a mooncup in the sink?

I think we should ask ourselves why we should feel especially embarrassed about these things. Why is it more embarrassing for the toilet door to open in front of men rather than women? I think the answer we should be moving towards is it shouldn't be. I think the idea of splitting things up along a male/female divide is problematic in several ways. First, it assumes that gender is a binary. Second, I would say it is based on heteronormative assumptions about people. Women might feel safer in a women-only changing room because there are no straight men to look at them, but what about women who like other women? Why not create a world where it's unacceptable to ogle people in changing rooms instead of splitting people up on arbitrary lines?

i think it should be a choice. there should be a third 'unisex' restroom for those who feel comfortable using one. the fact is that many people don't and this should be respected. there are creeps out there who will utilize such opportunities and, having standard unisex restrooms isn't going to solve the issue - patriarchy itself needs to be dismantled and its hard to see how unisex restrooms are a method towards this in themselves.

I think they're a step in the right direction, but they're not a solution. They still leave trans* people open to violence and harassment to an extent, in that any potential harasser can use them.

--

I thought this (http://www.autostraddle.com/butch-please-butch-in-the-bathroom175366/) article about bathrooms was interesting (and relevant to the OP).

Tenka

27th May 2014, 13:45

All public toilets should be unisex. Urinals should be abolished, and cameras installed to capture any suspicious (read: rapey) activity outside the toilet cubicles which will have locks (as they tend to have today). That is the farthest I'd bend to popular paranoia. Just adding unisex toilets and keeping the old sex-segregated ones will not make transpeople feel any more safe or accepted for who we are.

It may seem more practicable to just let transpeople use whatever sex-segregated toilet we wish, but not all of us may "pass", so to speak, and it's a little unfair to those of us who neither identify as, nor look very much like the popular conceptions of, either sex. So I'd be unwilling to compromise on the all-unisex-toilets thing.

Devrim

27th May 2014, 15:17

I posted earlier about my (non)experience with 'unisex' bathrooms. It was supposed to make the point of how far away from most people's reality this whole thing is.

The writer at the end of the article Quail links to says:

In my city of Philadelphia, new legislation states that any City-constructed building is required to include gender-neutral bathrooms (http://blogs.phillymag.com/the_philly_post/2013/04/17/philadelphia-lgbt-bill-gender-neutral-bathrooms/), which reflects the trend on most university campuses and similarly liberal locales.

I'd imagine that you might find these sort of things in certain institutions in certain Western cities. It isn't something that will be familiar to most people though.

I think we should ask ourselves why we should feel especially embarrassed about these things. Why is it more embarrassing for the toilet door to open in front of men rather than women? I think the answer we should be moving towards is it shouldn't be. I think the idea of splitting things up along a male/female divide is problematic in several ways. First, it assumes that gender is a binary. Second, I would say it is based on heteronormative assumptions about people. Women might feel safer in a women-only changing room because there are no straight men to look at them, but what about women who like other women? Why not create a world where it's unacceptable to ogle people in changing rooms instead of splitting people up on arbitrary lines?

I think the key word in here is should. I agree with you, we want a better world where these sort of things are different. The question is is whether instituting unisex toilets is a way to get there. Do you think that making all public toilets unisex would be a step on the way to that world, or do you think in the present world, it would be something that led to violence against women. There are of course public toilets in very different environments. Making some of them uni-sex would be less problematic than others. I, for one, would be worried if my daughter went to a secondary school, which had unisex toilets.

Incidentally, the point you make about 'hetronormative assumptions' is wrong I think. I don't think that what people worry about on this issue, is about being ogled, as unpleasant as that maybe in itself, but more the threat of harassment and violence that the ogling can lead to. In general men are bigger and physically stronger than women. The vast overwhelming majority of rape, and sexual assaults are committed by men on women. I don't think that women being frightened, or concerned is based on hetronormative assumptions. I think it is based on rational concern.

All public toilets should be unisex.

I don't think that there is an easy answer to this problem. I can imagine that some people are put in very uncomfortable situations when they need to go to the toilet in a public place. I am not sure that this is the answer at all though.

Devrim

human strike

27th May 2014, 15:33

In my experience these toilets have more people in them at any given time; does this not make them safer? I'm not sure why but I've always felt more comfortable in them.

Quail

27th May 2014, 15:45

I think the key word in here is should. I agree with you, we want a better world where these sort of things are different. The question is is whether instituting unisex toilets is a way to get there. Do you think that making all public toilets unisex would be a step on the way to that world, or do you think in the present world, it would be something that led to violence against women. There are of course public toilets in very different environments. Making some of them uni-sex would be less problematic than others. I, for one, would be worried if my daughter went to a secondary school, which had unisex toilets.
I think I already addressed this when I expressed that I would have reservations about using gender neutral toilets in certain situations as the world is today. I don't think anyone is arguing that making all toilets gender neutral will magically solve any problems. However, I think it's important to have somewhere for people who don't feel comfortable using either male or female toilets to go to the toilet. It's a pretty basic human need. I think at least a discussion on gender neutral toilets also draws attention to the idea that gender is more complex than the male/female binary allows for.

Incidentally, the point you make about 'hetronormative assumptions' is wrong I think. I don't think that what people worry about on this issue, is about being ogled, as unpleasant as that maybe in itself, but more the threat of harassment and violence that the ogling can lead to. In general men are bigger and physically stronger than women. The vast overwhelming majority of rape, and sexual assaults are committed by men on women. I don't think that women being frightened, or concerned is based on hetronormative assumptions. I think it is based on rational concern.

It's based on the assumption that women can't/won't harass other women, men can't/won't harass other men, which is untrue. Granted, most harassment comes from men, but I think there's something wrong with the mindset that a woman can be attracted to the women she's changing/in a bathroom with and not harass them but a man can't.

Rosa Partizan

27th May 2014, 15:58

as I already said, that transgender-argument is just too good to be ruled out from the discussion. However, most places are not "progressive" enough for that and cameras do not reduce harassment, they just make it easier to find the charged people. I'd feel uncomfortable as fuck to have guys in the restrooms of the most bars and clubs, I like them to have some "chillout zone" from men, hope that doesn't sound too hostile.

M-L-C-F

27th May 2014, 16:13

I like the idea of unisex restrooms. But the way society is right now, in certain places, you need separate restrooms. Plus, having separate restrooms for men and women isn't a prejudice thing. Men use urinals, women don't. Women also go in there for other things than relieving themselves. As for the transgender point. It's not like the restroom rules are laws or anything. Go where you feel most comfortable. If someone gives you a hard time, that's their problem, and they can fuck off.

That being said, I used to get pulled into the women's room a lot in high school, by my female friends. I also had to hold my friends hair more than a few times, when we'd get together. Because they drank too much. So I had to go into a women's room with them then as well.

BIXX

27th May 2014, 16:18

I don't understand why having unisex and gender binary bathrooms isn't considered more until a time when women can feel safe around men in a bathroom. Is there something I'm missing?

Tenka

27th May 2014, 19:56

Men use urinals, women don't.

This is just to reply to this particular point. Men do not need to use urinals at all. Why do they use them? Pissing at the wall because sitting down to pee is just too woman-like in their minds, apparently.

edit: and you can stand to piss in a proper toilet, as well, if that is your preference. Maybe they just like to measure other men's penises.

Hrafn

27th May 2014, 20:01

I never use urinals, and find them disturbing.

ComradeOm

27th May 2014, 20:04

This is just to reply to this particular point. Men do not need to use urinals at all. Why do they use them? Pissing at the wall because sitting down to pee is just too woman-like in their minds, apparentlyProbably because it's much more efficient than allocating individual stalls. You can probably get five to six men "pissing at the wall" in the amount of space you would need for two secure stalls. As anyone who has ever walked past the queue to the ladies' in a nightclub will tell you.

For that reason alone I'd be quite keen to keep urinals. Because there should be nothing shocking or offensive about the fact that men don't need to sit down to piss.

Tenka

27th May 2014, 20:08

For that reason alone I'd be quite keen to keep urinals. Because there should be nothing shocking or offensive about the fact that men don't need to sit down to piss.

Who said there was? I think if public bathrooms were unisex, though, women would feel more comfortable in them if there weren't a bunch of men with their dicks out right outside the stalls. And in general, people do not much care for saving space in American building design, so I don't see what's so special about restrooms intended to admit more than one person at a time.

M-L-C-F

27th May 2014, 20:23

This is just to reply to this particular point. Men do not need to use urinals at all. Why do they use them? Pissing at the wall because sitting down to pee is just too woman-like in their minds, apparently.

edit: and you can stand to piss in a proper toilet, as well, if that is your preference. Maybe they just like to measure other men's penises.

Wow, way to overreact. I didn't even mean anything by it. Seriously, get a grip. You're pathetically making something outta nothing, and being insulting while doing so. :rolleyes:

Probably because it's much more efficient than allocating individual stalls. You can probably get five to six men "pissing at the wall" in the amount of space you would need for two secure stalls. As anyone who has ever walked past the queue to the ladies' in a nightclub will tell you.

For that reason alone I'd be quite keen to keep urinals. Because there should be nothing shocking or offensive about the fact that men don't need to sit down to piss.

It's a more efficient use of space, but also it's faster to just go pee in a urinal. It's about convenience mostly. Also, have you see how poor of a job some men do at aiming? That's why in Japan they have interactive LEDs in some toilets. To make guys aim better. As a guy, I find it disgraceful how poor some men are at aiming. :ohmy:

On a side note, there are urinals for women too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinal#Urinals_designed_for_women.

Who said there was? I think if public bathrooms were unisex, though, women would feel more comfortable in them if there weren't a bunch of men with their dicks out right outside the stalls. And in general, people do not much care for saving space in American building design, so I don't see what's so special about restrooms intended to admit more than one person at a time.

There could always be stall doors for the urinals. Places with large gatherings need to have restrooms for more than one person at a time.

ComradeOm

27th May 2014, 20:28

I think if public bathrooms were unisex, though, women would feel more comfortable in them if there weren't a bunch of men with their dicks out right outside the stallsHence, if people aren't comfortable then the abolition of urinals is to my mind a reason not to implement these. Provide an alternative if those who don't identify as either, sure, but I'm not sure how men or women benefit from unisex toilets per se.

And in general, people do not much care for saving space in American building design, so I don't see what's so special about restrooms intended to admit more than one person at a time.It's a simple capacity constraint: if we assume that one stall takes up as much space as four men at a trough then it is necessary to quadruple the amount of space available to toilets (just in the men's) or you will end up with men queuing as long as women currently do.

Now maybe things are difficult in America but I can't think of many clubs (or restaurants or any social space) that would be happy massively expanding their toilet facilities. Not least because if they were then they probably would have already done so to avoid women having to queue.

So why are urinals provided? Is it because men fear it's "too woman-like"? No. It's because it's quicker (and therefore more efficient in terms of facilities) for men to piss standing up.

Also, have you see how poor of a job some men do at aiming? That's why in Japan they have interactive LEDs in some toilets. To make guys aim better. As a guy, I find it disgraceful how poor some men are at aimingOne of the wee (no pun intended) things I like about Continental Europe is how most of the urinals have little decals (like a fly or a flag pole) on the ceramic for you to aim at.

Rugged Collectivist

27th May 2014, 20:55

The only time I ever went in a uni-sex toilet was in a mining town in Northern Turkey. There were only two pubs in city (population over 100,000). From the way the people there were looking at us, I imagine that they had never seen a woman in a pub before. When one of our party needed to go to the toilet, we discovered that the toilet was indeed 'unisex', as in its basic meaning of one sex. In this case the sex was men, and there were only urinals.

Devrim

Where do they shit?

I never use urinals, and find them disturbing.

Same. I only use them when no one else is there, but I see the sense in them. I think the ideal solution is to put small panels between the urinals.

Ro Laren

27th May 2014, 22:21

I'm fine with unisex bathrooms as long as there are no urinals. I really don't want to see men pissing out in the open. I've never pissed myself waiting in line so I'm not sure why men wouldn't be able to wait either.

BIXX

28th May 2014, 01:23

If there were to be urinals I think they should have mini stalls surrounding them, that way you would be able to convert the already existing urinals rather than set up whole new bathrooms.

But that could cause a problem for claustrophobic people... But in that case they could use the larger stall, I assume.

synthesis

28th May 2014, 01:38

M-L-C-F

28th May 2014, 01:59

Here's a hypothetical situation I'm hoping might progress this discussion.

A bar has a male and female bathroom. The male bathroom has one stall and two urinals. The female bathroom has two stalls.

If you could have your way tomorrow - that is, with social norms as they are today - what would be the ideal way to reorganize these restrooms?

Why reorganize them? Just label them both unisex, and let people go where they want to. There's no reason to change current restrooms around. When building new ones, I'd say one urinal for every two or three toilets. The urinals can be collectively behind a stall wall, with dividers in between them. Either regular urinals, or the unisex urinals that women can use too.

Workers-Control-Over-Prod

28th May 2014, 02:07

Yeah, serious question. Some months ago, when I returned to the autonomous venue I had used to chill out, but hadn't been there for 2-3 months, they had altered the restrooms and there were suddenly 2 unisex restrooms instead of a male and a female one. At first, I didn't realize, until I saw a guy leaving the restroom that had used to be the female one. Somehow I felt uncomfortable to check my make up next to a guy washing his hands, but the transgender-argument (transgender folks doesn't feel excluded with this kind of toilets) outdid every feeling of uneasiness. However, I feel that this wouldn't work everywhere, for assault and harassment reasons. To me, it's a different thing if you do this at a pro-feminist, alternative venue or at some shady dive. So, what do you think? Under which circumstances do you think that unisex restrooms are a good idea? Do you know many places with this type of restrooms? Did you have mixed feelings at first?

I guess it would be a bit uncomfortable if you'd be hit on by some idiot, but really I don't think it would be much of a deal. It's funny because I was thinking of what it would be like yesterday if the restrooms at my work would be unisex. I thought immediately it would be nice - because the chance that I wouldn't be standing at the sink washing my hands next to this fat hairy, shirtless and gold chained patriarchal type dude would be increased. Maybe if a girl was standing behind me in the line to use the hand dryer I wouldn't be so mind dumbly bored. I mean, there are gay guys who use men's toilets, so obviously sexual attraction shouldn't be an argument for separate- or uni-sex restrooms. I think it would be a good thing, or at least definitely not something that would hinder the social revolution.

sixdollarchampagne

28th May 2014, 02:19

Decades ago, they used to have them at, at least, one of the advanced schools at Harvard, the Div School, and that was the only place I have ever seen them. Given the reality of the world outside Harvard Yard and what could happen, I think unisex bathrooms in general are a terrible idea, as far as women are concerned, but that is the opinion of a man, so maybe it can be discounted.

Workers-Control-Over-Prod

28th May 2014, 02:23

I never use urinals, and find them disturbing.

Haha! What? Are you afraid of other people bothering you or what? That can be uncomfortable, but not really a problematic situation. A few weeks ago I was at this mexican restaurant, on Cinco de Mayo actually, and went to the stall. So I'm standing there doing my business, dude walks in through the door and then says something in my direction. I obviously didn't respond because I'm busy, you know. He's standing at the sink, washing his face, and talks to me again. So now I'm thinking 'what the hell... is this guy gay? What the hell does he want from me?'. Turns out he was just drunk out of his mind and asking if I was dancing and partying with the people in the street as well.

synthesis

28th May 2014, 02:32

Haha! What? Are you afraid of other people bothering you or what? That can be uncomfortable, but not really a problematic situation. A few weeks ago I was at this mexican restaurant, on Cinco de Mayo actually, and went to the stall. So I'm standing there doing my business, dude walks in through the door and then says something in my direction. I obviously didn't respond because I'm busy, you know. He's standing at the sink, washing his face, and talks to me again. So now I'm thinking 'what the hell... is this guy gay? What the hell does he want from me?'. Turns out he was just drunk out of his mind and asking if I was dancing and partying with the people in the street as well.

Riveting. I felt like I was there.

Hermes

28th May 2014, 02:32

I have to agree that I find urinals inconvenient/disturbing. The fewer bathrooms I have to walk into that cause your shoes to stick and schlorp their way off the floor, or finding shit in the urinal itself, the better, in my opinion.

I guess I understand the argument some here are making for saving space, but, iunno, it sometimes doesn't seem worth it.

As for unisex bathrooms, I guess I'm divided. Safety would definitely be an issue, but isn't that also ignoring the danger that can be inherent in separated bathrooms, as well? Iunno, I guess in an ideal world I'd hope that it would also help increase understanding/awareness, but that seems like otherworldly optimism at this point.

Danielle Ni Dhighe

28th May 2014, 03:14

As a trans woman, I wouldn't feel comfortable in a unisex restroom. Trans people should be able to use a restroom consistent with their gender identity.

Xena Warrior Proletarian

28th May 2014, 03:18

Would it be smart to implement these kind of things from a very young age so that it becomes normal to the next generation. Start with kindergartens and work up?

Is there anything inherently dangerous about bathrooms? Men and women are in the same rooms all the time, it seems a little silly to assume that because people will be removing a couple of items of clothing to do their business that men will turn into sexual predators.

I don't know. Obviously safety is very important, and I can totally see the argument for safe spaces in clubs/bars etc. away from creepy men, but given the point about homosexuals and attraction within bathrooms anyway, it seems logical to get on with it and make them unisex.

I really couldn't give a toss about the practicality of it (regarding quantity of urinals). Change doesn't tend to be practical. Efficiency is irrelevant. I'll wait a little longer if it's for gender equality.

To me it reinforces sexual stereotypes - that women are delicate and they do their business in another place so men don't have to think about them doing 'unwomanly' things. Women shit and piss just like men - maybe unisex bathrooms would help let women fart and all those kind of things without getting abuse. There might be a lot a fuss at first, but eventually it would seem very ordinary and maybe help break down some barriers.

They are refered to as the "lady's" and "gentlemen's" after all (at least where I come from), if that isn't enough then I don't know what is :)

ps. Not to mention the trans/gender-normativity issue. It's an easy question once you think about it.

Danielle Ni Dhighe

28th May 2014, 09:27

Is there anything inherently dangerous about bathrooms?
In the abstract, no. In a misogynist society where rape culture is a thing, potentially.

Quail

28th May 2014, 09:42

Could we stay on topic please? So no more discussions about the merits of urinals.

Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant'

28th May 2014, 09:46

I hope one day they become more common place because of a more relaxed attitude to gender, less embarrassment about what goes on in there and women (including trans) not having to fear harrassment or attack. With things as they are, location and context is all.
(Personally,I hate public bathrooms of any kind and would find a unisex one quite daunting, but that's just my own hang up :crying:)

Devrim

1st June 2014, 13:47

It's based on the assumption that women can't/won't harass other women, men can't/won't harass other men, which is untrue. Granted, most harassment comes from men, but I think there's something wrong with the mindset that a woman can be attracted to the women she's changing/in a bathroom with and not harass them but a man can't.

No, it doesn't come from the idea that women can't/won't harass other women at all. It comes from the idea that men are more likely to harass women than other women are. This is a fact.

It is about risk assessment, which is something that people do unconsciously all the time. When walking down my street late at night, I am more likely to walk on the other side of the street if I see a group of young men walking towards me than if I see a group of old ladies. This is not to say that old women can not attack people on the street, but outside of a Monty Python sketch, I think the odds of it are pretty unlikely. This does not make me a sexist, or an ageist. It is just the sort of rountine risk assessment that people do every day without thinking about it.

Back to the example we are referring to; First any random man is more likely to find a woman attractive than any random woman is purely from the fact that there are more hetrosexuals than homosexuals, second any random man is more likely to commit an act of violence than any random woman, and third any random man is more likely to be physically bigger and stronger and therefore more threatening than any random woman.

Of course the brain does not perform painstaking statistical calculations. It approximates. It is not to make 'heteronormative assumptions'. It is simply good risk management.

Devrim

Devrim

1st June 2014, 13:55

as I already said, that transgender-argument is just too good to be ruled out from the discussion.

It is going to be a really unpopular point on this board, but I don't think this is true. The number of transgender people is extremely small. As a friend of mine once said when discussing this topic "I have spoken to more women at my work who have been raped than I have met transgender people in my life".

I sympathise with transgender people. I think that everything reasonable should be done to help them as they must already have very difficult lives. I think that the violence that would result against women if these sort of proposals about uni-sex toilets were introduced in secondary schools would massively outweigh any good it might do.

Devrim

LuÃs Henrique

1st June 2014, 17:43

3rd June 2014, 08:41

In an ideal world where we could redesign society and socialization from the ground up, people wouldn't sexually harass, sexually objectify, or lear at others, everyone's experience of their own bodies would be without shame and their experience of others bodies would be without judgment, and there would be no need or desire for personal modesty.

But we don't live in that ideal world, and simply integrating bathrooms wont deliver it.

Slavoj Zizek's Balls

3rd June 2014, 09:14

I don't understand why having unisex and gender binary bathrooms isn't considered more until a time when women can feel safe around men in a bathroom. Is there something I'm missing?

I completely agree because this is a changing process of comfort and familiarity. Temporarily having male/female toilets and unisex toilets is helpful in expressing how gender is aimed to be considered (as not divisive), while providing opportunities for people to act on that or proceed with normality to think about it.

Ven0m

3rd June 2014, 09:16

bad idea full stop me thinks. can you imagine how many creeps women would have to deal with if these were the norm?

Bad Grrrl Agro

3rd June 2014, 23:36

It is going to be a really unpopular point on this board, but I don't think this is true. The number of transgender people is extremely small. As a friend of mine once said when discussing this topic "I have spoken to more women at my work who have been raped than I have met transgender people in my life".
So maybe we should discount ethnic and racial minorities too, right? Maybe dismiss disabled folks, yeah? Do you have any idea about the percentage of transfolks that have experienced sexual assault? Or how many experienced "corrective" rape to make them not trans (to force them back into the closet)

The fact is that trans folks are one of the most vulnerable groups in society. Transpeople of color have statistically the highest rates of experiencing violence.

I sympathise with transgender people.
No you don't.

I think that everything reasonable should be done to help them as they must already have very difficult lives. I think that the violence that would result against women if these sort of proposals about uni-sex toilets were introduced in secondary schools would massively outweigh any good it might do.
You wanna know what would be reasonable? Male bathrooms for those who identify as male, female bathrooms for those who identify as female and gender neutral bathrooms for those who identify as neither.

What violence would result towards womyn? Because those who have been violent towards me were all cisgender.

Also, statistically, transfolks are significantly more likely to experience violence in a bathroom than ciswomyn experience rape in a bathroom.

I have been raped in a bathroom, but seriously, fuck you.

Devrim

Yeah, I get it...

Hrafn

3rd June 2014, 23:58

Bad Grrrl Agro, where have you (in an entirely platonic way) been all my life?

I wish I has something to contribute, but BGA just about summarized all my sentiments in far fewer words than I would've.

MarcusJuniusBrutus

4th June 2014, 00:00

If women are all right with it, then I am all right with it. If women do not like the idea, then we had better not. I saw public unisex rest rooms in France. The stalls are private.

Alexios

4th June 2014, 00:17

So maybe we should discount ethnic and racial minorities too, right? Maybe dismiss disabled folks, yeah? Do you have any idea about the percentage of transfolks that have experienced sexual assault? Or how many experienced "corrective" rape to make them not trans (to force them back into the closet)

That's not the point at all. Stop it with the pathetic strawmen.

You wanna know what would be reasonable? Male bathrooms for those who identify as male, female bathrooms for those who identify as female and gender neutral bathrooms for those who identify as neither.

lol, what. That wouldn't be reasonable at all. As you've ironically pointed out in this very post, a transman would very likely be assaulted in a mens' restroom or at the very least harassed.

Bad Grrrl Agro

4th June 2014, 00:17

If women are all right with it, then I am all right with it. If women do not like the idea, then we had better not. I saw public unisex rest rooms in France. The stalls are private.

Womyn don't have one homogenous opinion. Just because certain other womyn have a certain view point doesn't mean that I will agree with them. Fascist singer, Saga is female, but I sure as fuck don't agree with what she has to say. I know that was an extreme example, but there are varying opinions that womyn have. We aren't hive-minded insects.

Remus Bleys

4th June 2014, 00:27

What are womyn? I know what women are. Could you maybe you know stop it with that obnoxious spelling? It makes your posts sound so immature, so posturing, so moronic and hard to read. It doesn't even make etymological sense considering that it roughly means "wife of a human," so womyn means "wife of a myn." What is a myn? Why do you want to strip even a hint of the etymology of human from the phrase womyn if the supposed (and idiotic, like spelling means anything) point of the "womyn" thing is supposed to make women "equal" or something.

M-L-C-F

4th June 2014, 00:35

Bad Grrrl Agro

4th June 2014, 00:45

That's not the point at all. Stop it with the pathetic strawmen.
How is there a difference? Picking one underprivileged minority group and dismissing them based on there being too few of them, where is the fucking difference?

lol, what. That wouldn't be reasonable at all. As you've ironically pointed out in this very post, a transman would very likely be assaulted in a mens' restroom or at the very least harassed.

I actually was talking primarily about transwomyn being assaulted in a men's bathroom (where under current rules of society, many areas make them legally forced to use the men's bathrooms) however, some transfolks experience harassment and violence no matter what bathroom they use. In some areas it might as well be a crime to be a trans person. In some areas, it is literally a crime to be a transperson.

Bad Grrrl Agro

4th June 2014, 00:45

Remus Bleys

4th June 2014, 00:58

Dont fuckin' tell me what to do.

I did not tell you what to do. I asked why you prefer such an obnoxious and edgy spelling.

Hrafn

4th June 2014, 01:00

Lots of Grammar Nazism here, all for the sake of restricting people's ability to define themselves.

BIXX

4th June 2014, 02:12

I did not tell you what to do. I asked why you prefer such an obnoxious and edgy spelling.

Why do you even post?

You see how questions can have statements loaded behind them?

On another note grammar nazism is annoying as hell and rather than hide behind a question like you did, I'm just gonna tell you to shut the fuck up.

Remus Bleys

4th June 2014, 02:35

This isn't grammar nazism its Spell Cheka. And it's not even a spelling error - its an intentional misspelling of women/woman designed to make some point - but the point it is trying to make is idiotic (really? The oppression of women is in any way shape spelling? What about genderless languages?) and comes across as super annoying to anyone not infatuated with identity politics (it's like going U$). On top of all that, it makes no etymological sense!
why do you even post? What does an egoist individualist have to do with communism?

Redistribute the Rep

4th June 2014, 02:58

Ven0m

4th June 2014, 06:45

Bad Grrrl Agro

4th June 2014, 07:21

why do you even post? What does an egoist individualist have to do with communism?

Wait, what is an egoist individualist?

Bad Grrrl Agro

4th June 2014, 07:26

as a gay male one conscern that comes to me is that, as i'm sure you other gay males know, a lot of homosexual men use public rest rooms as a beat or a sexual meeting place. yes it sounds seedy but it's sadly an effect of homophobia where gay males are made to feel unwelcome in public places. besides not wanting to expose women to heterosexual creeps, i would not like to see womens restrooms used as beats.

As a person who drinks hot sauce I have one question about your concern, you think transwomyn would use womyn's restrooms as beats? That makes no sense. You are making me look logical and rational in comparison.

Ven0m

4th June 2014, 07:30

As a person who drinks hot sauce I have one question about your concern, you think transwomyn would use womyn's restrooms as beats? That makes no sense. You are making me look logical and rational in comparison.

i have no idea as i am not a "transwomyn" and cannot speak for one. i do however know that gay men would continue to use rest rooms as beats.

Bad Grrrl Agro

4th June 2014, 07:46

i have no idea as i am not a "transwomyn" and cannot speak for one. i do however know that gay men would continue to use rest rooms as beats.

But not womyn's restrooms, they'd have a hard time picking up a man in a womyn's restroom. Also, gay men wouldn't be the ones going into womyn's restrooms if they allowed transwomyn in, there still would only be womyn.

Ven0m

4th June 2014, 08:25

But not womyn's restrooms, they'd have a hard time picking up a man in a womyn's restroom. Also, gay men wouldn't be the ones going into womyn's restrooms if they allowed transwomyn in, there still would only be womyn.

perhaps i thought we were talking about unisex restrooms that cater for men, women and transgener?

Bad Grrrl Agro

4th June 2014, 08:50

perhaps i thought we were talking about unisex restrooms that cater for men, women and transgener?

Like I said, I support womyn's restrooms for those who identify as womyn, men's restrooms for those who identify as men and gender neutral restrooms for those who don't identify as simply male or female.

Quail

4th June 2014, 09:09

Can you stop the off-topic hostile posting please? Any more and you will receive an infraction.

mindsword

9th June 2014, 03:38

i always envied women for their clean public restrooms :grin: so im guessing that doesnt go the other way.

(if we merge them maybe they'll forget about how unclean animals we are, in a year or two...)

we will also promise to make more of an effort to keep it clean. which we will then forget and break after two months, and go back to watching sports.

Sinister Intents

9th June 2014, 03:41

Going based off of the title. I think they're alright, they're definitely a good idea and technically already exist as one person restrooms like those port-o-potty things

Devrim

9th June 2014, 08:35

You wanna know what would be reasonable? Male bathrooms for those who identify as male, female bathrooms for those who identify as female and gender neutral bathrooms for those who identify as neither.

Gender neutral toilets are not what is being proposed here. What is being proposed is unisex toilets. I think that gender neutral bathrooms would be a good idea. I don't think that it is going to happen in any more than a few places in the foreseeable future because it would cost money and there are not enough transgender people to make it a profitable proposition. I don't think that it would increase the dangers of sexual assualt like unisex toilets would.

What violence would result towards womyn? Because those who have been violent towards me were all cisgender.

I am not at all suggesting that transgender people are going to assault women. I think that there would be an increase in assaults on women by men if toilets, particularly in certain areas like secondary schools and night clubs, were made unisex.

Devrim

Devrim

9th June 2014, 08:37

Going based off of the title. I think they're alright, they're definitely a good idea and technically already exist as one person restrooms like those port-o-potty things

I actually saw a load of female ones, in pink no less, in the park yesterday.

Devrim

#FF0000

9th June 2014, 09:00

i always envied women for their clean public restrooms

envy no more because that is nowhere close to true.

Wuggums47

1st July 2014, 20:02

If we make a unisex bathroom, but keep the old gendered bathrooms next to it, you mine as well label it the bathroom for its. It's a step in the right direction, but something still feels uncomfortable about the whole scenario. I know there has been an argument that mixed bathrooms would lead to more rapes, but I want to believe in a world where someday people can be in a mixed restroom together without having to fear sexual assault. I think we could make that a reality by putting highly visible security cameras in the bathrooms.

Bad Grrrl Agro

5th July 2014, 00:42

I think we could make that a reality by putting highly visible security cameras in the bathrooms.

You don't see the problem with that? Really? The privacy invasion would outweigh the supposed "safety" it would create. Also I don't want big brother watching my drunk ass puking.

Slavoj Zizek's Balls

6th July 2014, 23:38

You don't see the problem with that? Really? The privacy invasion would outweigh the supposed "safety" it would create. Also I don't want big brother watching my drunk ass puking.

Your ass pukes AND it gets drunk? What happens to the rest of you?!

Yes I agree. Seems totally discontinuous to want greater observation from cameras yet to also want to undermine big brother's interference as a necessary step against social controls.

TheWannabeAnarchist

7th July 2014, 06:06

Security cameras? Really? I'm all for gender equality, but if we have to put cameras in bathrooms it's too much. I think we should just leave the bathrooms as they are. Maybe society will evolve and people will become more comfortable with unisex bathrooms, but for me it's just not a major issue.

However, there are forms of sex segregation that we should militantly struggle against. Take, for example Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. Having separate youth groups not only teaches kids that men and women are incapable of working together, it also teaches them that they *must* play distinctly different roles in society. It sends that message that girls were made for selling cookies and boys for going on adventures in the forest. Womens' high schools and colleges are probably even worse. I just don't understand how anyone can say women are mens' equals while also believing that they are fragile, helpless beings who need to be protected from men and from themselves.:mad:

Sea

7th July 2014, 06:23

Last week I literally shat in the woods and coming back from that it makes me feel depressed that all this hubbub about something as simple as the sign on a restroom is needed at all. I think everyone should shit in the woods from time to time. I know of no better way to highlight how stupid this world we live in is.

Where I am there are a lot of places where there is only 1 restroom due to it not being crowded enough to warrant building 2 restrooms. Usually there are maybe 1 or 2 stalls. Those are all unisex and nobody really seems to care.

Urinals should be abolished, and cameras installed to capture any suspicious (read: rapey) activity outside the toilet cubicles which will have locks (as they tend to have today).footnote - anyone who has ever shat in a bank has already appeared on camera, this isn't as uncommon / unlikely as one may think
Maybe they just like to measure other men's penises.This is actually the case, and is something I have heard discussed once while using a stall. Mind you I'm taking plenty of literary license / borrowing from a SNL skit here.Harry: "How's your penis today, Tom?"
Tom: "Oh pretty good, how bout yours Harry?"
Harry: "Yeah it's fine!"
*Jim enters the room*
Harry: "Hey Jim, been a while, what's new?"
Jim: "Not a whole lot. Been traveling a lot more."
Tom: "That's a pretty small penis you have there, Jim."

Bad Grrrl Agro

8th July 2014, 03:36

Your ass pukes AND it gets drunk? What happens to the rest of you?!

When I say my drunk ass, I'm referring to myself. I aint gonna curb my linguistics for the sake of being prim and fucking proper. If it were a matter of sensitivity I would but don't come at me all high and pompous.

And yes, I get drunk as fuck sometimes, and yes I puke sometimes.

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 15:38

I talked to a close friend of mine who is one of the people that organizes a lot of stuff around the autonomous center in the nearby town. He told me there was some voting among the organizers about the unisex restrooms, because a significant amount of females felt at unease sharing them with males (although this is an explicitely radical left, antisexist venue and the ratio f/m is 25:75, as in almost every autonomous center I've ever been to). Unsurprisingly, no one of the males expressed unease. So they decided to drop these and get back the male/female restrooms. I don't know if there have been any cases of harassment nor do I know the implications for transgender people and their restroom choices now. However, I don't know either about the exact number of transgender people visiting this center. I know about 2 transfemales and I've been going there for years. So maybe it's these 2, maybe it's more, I just dunno. But 2 other similar venues in Germany I've been to dropped the unisex restrooms, too, for the same reasons.

Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages

22nd January 2015, 15:45

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 15:51

Do they know what the f/m vote ratio that implemented these bathrooms in the first place was? if the ratio is really skewed to 3/4 male it doesn't seem very democratic to institute this to begin with.

interesting point. Most of the people organizing this venue are - big surprise - white, male, heterosexual. I don't know what the exact ratio concerning organizers is, will ask my friend. I know about 2 women actively participating in organizing the events, lectures and concerts there, but I know about at least 6-7 guys doing the same. Of course, they are totally open for female participation and try to encourage it, but it just doesn't happen.

Quail

22nd January 2015, 16:13

In this country it's mostly events etc that are organised by women and queer people which have gender neutral toilets.

Culicarius

22nd January 2015, 16:31

Well the first issue is unisex is pretty heteronormative and assumes everyone identifies as a man or a woman (or has those genitals - but there are intersex people as well).

I live in the USA, but I went to Sweden and Norway this summer. One fairly common thing I noted (esp. in large public venues like airports, malls, and train stations) is that bathrooms tended to not be labeled at all. You simply had a bathroom and once inside each individual room had a door, and inside all had a toilet, sink, and baby station. In the area between the restrooms and the rest of the building you had sinks for anyone to use.

When I first arrived it seemed odd to me, but now it only makes sense. And as someone who enjoys privacy in a bathroom, it's nice to be able to use a public restroom that almost feels like a bathroom in someone's house. As opposed to the ones I'm used to here in the states which feel cramped and unappealing.

I think it works, and as a gender fluid person I appreciated it immensely. I'm not sure if American culture is trans-friendly enough for people to be okay with it though.

Creative Destruction

22nd January 2015, 16:34

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 17:08

I'm in favor of it, but as an extra, in addition to unisex bathrooms. I know the Danish military has unisex showers and toilets and, iirc, what they found is that by doing so, women were more humanized by the men and thus treated with more respect. It'd be interesting if that generalized.

are you serious? Number of women I know who would shower with male colleagues, guys from the fitness center etc: 0. If at all, this should be an additional option, but not the only one.

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 17:28

So I talked again to my friend. He said that one of the female organizers was contacted by plenty of women who said the guys made them feel "uncomfortable" and that "some guys took advantage of the situation", whatever that means, but I guess, we all have some ideas about that. So the restroom that used to be the female one will be female again and the former male restroom will remain a unisex restroom. However, I think that the vast majority of females will be exclusively using the female one.

Slippers

22nd January 2015, 17:55

Not in favor of "unisex" restrooms - more like "gender neutral" restrooms.

* Not everyone is male or female

* I am uncomfortable with people telling me I am male and that I should use the "male" restroom - which is what these discussions usually turn into (being a transwoman)

* And going into a mens restroom yes that is an excellent way to get attacked as a transwoman

* Not that any restrooms are safe if you don't 'pass' - I just don't bother if at all possible

Quail

22nd January 2015, 18:04

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 18:10

Interesting. As far as I'm aware nobody has ever complained about gender neutral toilets in the feminists spaces I've been part of but perhaps in a wider movement riddled with sexism there might be issues. Still, I think gender neutral toilets should always be an option, even if there are also gendered toilets.

maybe because in "ordinary" female spaces, females outweigh males by far? I haven't heard any complaints from ladyfests, either, nor from some feminist lecture festival that took place here some weeks ago. Where males are a minority, the power dynamics may be slightly different than in the "real" world.

Anglo-Saxon Philistine

22nd January 2015, 18:24

On one hand, I think having one general restroom and one female-exclusive one would probably keep everyone happy. Generally speaking, there is no reason for males to have an exclusive bathroom. Except for urinals, perhaps, which are probably not the best idea hygiene-wise anyway.

On the other hand, how are you going to prevent biological males from accessing bathrooms that are "not for them"? I mean, it's one thing to have a staff member to throw out someone who's causing problems, but are you going to check everyone for scars? That's an uncomfortable thought.

Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages

22nd January 2015, 19:08

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 19:21

How do people prevent that already? At the point that you're relying on a sign glued to a door for designation, you've already reached some kind of honor system in which people are expected to behave responsibly. I've been in mens rooms where a woman has come in to skip a line or something, they mostly get dirty or confused looks. Does someone have an experience they can share about a man going into a women's restroom? I imagine it's a little more tense.

oh yeah, that happens from time to time, especially at university when you study a subject that is female dominated, which means that men's restrooms will always be way emptier. I remember two times (party context) when a guy entered the female restrooms, both times because of an intended hanky-panky with a woman, but each time, I spoiled it for them. Prude and proud of it :wub: no really, I don't have any sympathy for that. Go home and fuck your brains out, couldn't care less, but I don't wanna see or hear that shit in a place I consider some kind of female "hideaway".

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 19:33

I'd be in support of non-designated, universal restrooms. I don't really see the problem with it.

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 19:34

I'd be in support of non-designated, universal restrooms. I don't really see the problem with it.

male harassment rings a bell?

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 19:38

male harassment rings a bell?

I don't really see that as an issue any more than any other public-private space.

Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages

22nd January 2015, 20:04

Its one of the only public-private spaces where you are removing articles of clothing that cover sensitive body parts though.

Creative Destruction

22nd January 2015, 20:10

are you serious? Number of women I know who would shower with male colleagues, guys from the fitness center etc: 0. If at all, this should be an additional option, but not the only one.

I am in favor of gender neutral and separate bathrooms for men and women. I guess I used unisex mistakenly.

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 20:24

I am in favor of gender neutral and separate bathrooms for men and women. I guess I used unisex mistakenly.

this makes way more sense. I'd like to have either female, male and gender neutral restrooms, or those little boothes (?) with a toilet and a sink, that you can lock up. Know what I mean? So you would be all alone all the time. This is hardly manageable in most cases in terms of space. The problem with the former solution I mentioned would be that most women would stick to the female restroom while guys wouldn't be having any issues using the gender neutral one, so I'm not quite sure if transgender people would feel more safe in these anyway. Violence against transgender people is a male issue, as well as violence against women-born-females.

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 21:18

Its one of the only public-private spaces where you are removing articles of clothing that cover sensitive body parts though.

Not really. You go into the stall to do that.

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 21:25

Not really. You go into the stall to do that.

there are males who don't close their stall so that they get caught with their pants down by females. That really happens. Or they peep to make pictures of the females undressing. This is gendered violence. Gendered violence doesn't begin with rape and hits.

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 21:29

there are males who don't close their stall so that they get caught with their pants down by females. That really happens. Or they peep to make pictures of the females undressing. This is gendered violence. Gendered violence doesn't begin with rape and hits.

I don't really see exposure as being more prevalent in restrooms than any other public-private space and the latter can easily be solved logistically by extending partitions to the floor. I don't think instances of what you call gendered violence would be more prevalent in bathrooms than other public-private spaces.

Quail

22nd January 2015, 21:32

I don't really see exposure as being more prevalent in restrooms than any other public-private space and the latter can easily be solved logistically by extending partitions to the floor. I don't think instances of what you call gendered violence would be more prevalent in bathrooms than other public-private spaces.

I think being on the receiving end of gendered violence in a toilet is a pretty shit situation though, which could leave someone feeling as though they can't piss safely in public. But then... trans and gender non-conforming people already feel like that, so we need a solution which means everyone can piss safely and comfortably while out in public.

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 21:39

I think being on the receiving end of gendered violence in a toilet is a pretty shit situation though, which could leave someone feeling as though they can't piss safely in public. But then... trans and gender non-conforming people already feel like that, so we need a solution which means everyone can piss safely and comfortably while out in public.

Sure but I don't think that the prevalence of gendered violence in universal restrooms would be greater than any other public-private space.

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 21:48

Sure but I don't think that the prevalence of gendered violence in universal restrooms would be greater than any other public-private space.

ok, then let's have gender neutral dressing rooms, too. I mean, it's all the same everywhere, so why even bother? When you can limit this violence by such easy means, why not try at least, especially when in such environments, females who undress at some point of the time they spend there, are more vulnerable for attacks than in many other fully clothed public situations.

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 21:55

ok, then let's have gender neutral dressing rooms, too. I mean, it's all the same everywhere, so why even bother? When you can limit this violence by such easy means, why not try at least, especially when in such environments, females who undress at some point of the time they spend there, are more vulnerable for attacks than in many other fully clothed public situations.

I'd be fine with gender-neutral dressing rooms, too, considering that - like restrooms - the undressing happens in a closed stall.

Redistribute the Rep

22nd January 2015, 22:02

Just throwing this out there: can't we have gender neutral restrooms that only exclude the cis het men? They can go outside...

Quail

22nd January 2015, 22:02

Sure but I don't think that the prevalence of gendered violence in universal restrooms would be greater than any other public-private space.

I think that the potential impact of being harassed in a public toilet would probably be greater than that of being harassed while walking in a busy street...

Though having said that I have no problem with using gender neutral facilities myself and I think it would be good if there were more of them. My girlfriend gets misgendered a lot and often doesn't feel comfortable using either the men's or the women's toilet - and she's not alone in that at all. Loads of masculine/queer women have issues with the worry of being misgendered and thrown out of the women's toilet and not feeling safe in the men's. Plus I think that having only toilets for "men" and "women" forces people into boxes, and not everyone fits into those boxes no matter how you try to define them.

Quail

22nd January 2015, 22:04

Just throwing this out there: can't we have gender neutral restrooms that only exclude the cis het men? They can go outside...

Pretty sure this isn't serious, but how would you even enforce something like that? You can't tell by looking at a man if he's cis/het.

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 22:04

I think that the potential impact of being harassed in a public toilet would probably be greater than that of being harassed while walking in a busy street...

I said public-private spaces, not busy streets. I think the chances of being harassed in a public toilet wouldn't be much different than walking down a stairwell or while in an elevator.

Lily Briscoe

22nd January 2015, 22:05

I don't really see that as an issue any more than any other public-private space.

I'm having a hard time thinking of many (any?) analogous "public private spaces" where you're in a small enclosed room with often just one or two random strangers. Women being harassed on the street by random men, in full view of large groups of people, is a common enough phenomenon that it seems pretty obvious why a lot of women might feel (for good reason) unsafe in a small enclosed room with random men.

Lily Briscoe

22nd January 2015, 22:08

Also, the previous job I had required me to take elevators several times a day, and I had some incredibly uncomfortable experiences with creepy weirdos, so I'm not sure that's a good example.

Redistribute the Rep

22nd January 2015, 22:10

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 22:11

Also, the previous job I had required me to take elevators several times a day, and I had some incredibly uncomfortable experiences with creepy weirdos, so I'm not sure that's a good example.

I'd consider it a pretty good example. If prevalence rates for gendered violence in universal restrooms were equivalent to that of elevators, then there's no reason to not have them if we can handle having elevators.

Redistribute the Rep

22nd January 2015, 22:12

I said public-private spaces, not busy streets. I think the chances of being harassed in a public toilet wouldn't be much different than walking down a stairwell or while in an elevator.

But why does the fact that women are harassed in other places mean they must be put into even more situations where they're potentially harassed?

I'd consider it a pretty good example. If prevalence rates for gendered violence in universal restrooms were equivalent to that of elevators, then there's no reason to not have them if we can handle having elevators.

If by "we can handle elevators" you actually mean that life goes on for men, then ok. For women though, it's not so simple, a lot of them are hesitant to use elevators where they'll be alone with strangers. Really, why should women have to be subject to that any more?

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 22:13

Yea it was a joke. But seriously, there's some pretty straightforward solutions to this: gendered bathrooms alongside neutral ones, or just single bathrooms, I think there was a law passed recently in California to support this.

I hear ya. Wrote that on the last page of this thread or so. To sum it up, you can't force anyone who's not male-born-male to share restrooms with them. It's an impertinence.

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 22:14

But why does the fact that women are harassed in other places mean they must be put into even more situations where they're potentially harassed?

My point is that they aren't put into situations where there is a higher prevalence rate of gendered violence. I think the advantages of getting rid of gendered bathrooms would be worth it.

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 22:18

My point is that they aren't put into situations where there is a higher prevalence rate of gendered violence. I think the advantages of getting rid of gendered bathrooms would be worth it.

what makes you think there is not more gendered violence in gender neutral restrooms than in gendered restrooms? Why don't you give a fuck about what females feel when they share the restrooms with males? So I know already 3 super-antisexist locations where women are still uncomfortable with those restrooms and where harassment had been taking place. But you don't give a fuck, right?

Redistribute the Rep

22nd January 2015, 22:21

My point is that they aren't put into situations where there is a higher prevalence rate of gendered violence. I think the advantages of getting rid of gendered bathrooms would be worth it.

Even if we were to assume that rates of harassment would be the same in a shared bathroom as in other places, the simple fact that a female only restroom would have less harassment than one in which men are allowed would be reason enough to consider a more nuanced approach

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 22:21

what makes you think there is not more gendered violence in gender neutral restrooms than in gendered restrooms?

What makes you think there is?

Why don't you give a fuck about what females feel when they share the restrooms with males?

Because we have no statistical information about how females feel when they share restrooms with males. Unless someone conducted this poll and somehow managed to explain how a universal restroom would work if they hadn't already been in one?

So I know already 3 super-antisexist locations where women are still uncomfortable with those restrooms and where harassment had been taking place. But you don't give a fuck, right?

I'm not sure why you're being so hostile.

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 22:24

Even if we were to assume that rates of harassment would be the same in a shared bathroom as in other places, the simple fact that a female only restroom would have less harassment than one in which men are allowed would be reason enough to consider a more nuanced approach

Certainly but we also must weigh the impact removing gendered bathrooms would have on helping to reduce a binary concept of gender, which is an ideological concept promoted through such environmental reinforcers.

Quail

22nd January 2015, 22:26

I guess the thing that sets public toilets apart from stairways or whatever is that when you go to the toilet you're doing something that is generally quite a private thing, so experiencing harassment while you do it is going to be particularly unpleasant. Plus being in an enclosed space with the person who is harassing you would only make it worse.

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 22:27

Certainly but we also must weigh the impact removing gendered bathrooms would have on helping to reduce a binary concept of gender.

So we have to do this at the expense of female safety, right? We can't do that in other areas, right? Excuse me, but bodily female safety weighs more than progressive concepts when you can't have both and have to pick one.

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 22:28

So we have to do this at the expense of female safety, right? We can't do that in other areas, right? Excuse me, but bodily female safety weighs more than progressive concepts when you can't have both and have to pick one.

I don't think that female safety is more important than the safety of people who don't fit into binary gender roles. I'd also argue that the ideology of binary gender roles is damaging to both women and those who don't fit into those roles and that fighting bindary gender ideology is progressive for both women and transgendered people.

Rosa Partizan

22nd January 2015, 22:30

I don't think that female safety is more important than the safety of people who don't fit into binary gender roles.

I already said that no one should be forced to share restrooms with male-born-males, but you're being an ignorant prick right from the start.

Prof. Oblivion

22nd January 2015, 22:34

I already said that no one should be forced to share restrooms with male-born-males, but you're being an ignorant prick right from the start.

Calm down. No need to get angry. We're having a discussion with differing opinions. It's not a big deal.

#FF0000

22nd January 2015, 23:30

I don't think gendered bathrooms would necessarily stop someone who wanted to harass someone. If they're going to do that, the sign by the door isn't going to stop them. That said I don't think this is an all-or-nothing thing either -- there's no reason for all bathrooms to be gender neutral. Gender neutral bathrooms can exist alongside gendered ones.

(And this might be a tangent but I think women's bathroom's aren't different enough from men's bathrooms -- they should be made bigger to accommodate more people, for starters)

Slippers

23rd January 2015, 00:02

If we're having "gendered restrooms" as a way to keep (I am assuming cisgender) woman safe - where do transwoman go to the restroom (I'm assuming the "mens" restroom - to likely be assaulted)? Transmen? Nonbinary people? People who are mistaken for a gender they are not?

How do we even organize this without using a gross "you look like you shouldn't be in here" sort of reasoning to weed people out and sort them?

Eh

For people like me the solution is usually never ever use public restrooms if you can at all avoid it and the solution to that as far as I can see is only to create safe spaces for trans people.

Culicarius

23rd January 2015, 18:48

A prominent issue here, I think, is culture. We don't exactly live in the most trans friendly society. While I would like to see gender neutral bathrooms alongside specific ones (like women), and while I like the setup I saw in Sweden and Norway in some bathrooms, discussing bathrooms as a single issue without addressing culture is a problem.

Society is still fastened in with a gender binary way of thinking. More awareness needs to be brought about. Trans people are frequently targeted by violence, joked about in shows and by comedians, by many (esp. in the states) seen as oddities or a mental illness that needs to be treated through therapy. Add this on top of misogyny in our culture and we have concerns regarding the safety and comfort of women and trans people.

Sure, we could introduce gender neutral bathrooms and leave it at that. But I think it has the potential to lead to violence against women. I don't believe it's right to try and give trans people something at the expense of throwing cis women under the bus. It's similar to how earlier waves of feminism would leave non white middle-class women out of their ideals of gender equality.

So while I want to see gender neutral bathrooms become an accepted norm in due time, it should not be done in a way that gives to trans people while taking away from cis women. The overall awareness of trans issues and fighting transphobia needs to be taken into account as well.

Redistribute the Rep

24th January 2015, 01:48

I don't think gendered bathrooms would necessarily stop someone who wanted to harass someone. If they're going to do that, the sign by the door isn't going to stop them.

Eh, in my experience some harassers will usually just do it to women in their immediate vicinity, it's not always a premeditated thing.

consuming negativity

24th January 2015, 04:38

"women will be uncomfortable by this so trans people should be uncomfortable instead..."

but like since the problem is men why not just have a giant room full of urinals for the men and then a public bathroom for the humans to use? if men need to shit they can go outside like the rest of the animals

Lily Briscoe

24th January 2015, 05:45

"women will be uncomfortable by this so trans people should be uncomfortable instead..."
I mean, I don't wanna play 'oppression olympics' or something, but considering that biological women comprise just over half the world's population, whereas trans people are a tiny minority, I don't think it's so absurd that the safety of the former group would be prioritized. I don't think it should actually have to come down to sacrificing the safety of one group for the protection of the other, though. Surely people can advocate the addition of 'gender neutral' bathrooms without arguing that gendered bathrooms should all be converted into gender neutral ones?

but like since the problem is men why not just have a giant room full of urinals for the men and then a public bathroom for the humans to use? if men need to shit they can go outside like the rest of the animals
Is this like the kind of white activist who complains about 'ugh white people' to try to be 'down'?

A Revolutionary Tool

24th January 2015, 06:34

Working at a truck stop I see a lot of weird stuff in the bathrooms thats "call X number, i suck dick" type of things so i can see why restrooms can be uncomfortable places for many people (even if its all males in a bathroom). We should make bathrooms more private, I don't understand why the walls can't extend to the ground so i don't see my neighbors feet for example.

Unisex bathroms should be adopted maybe when women can live without fear of sexual assault.

BIXX

24th January 2015, 07:13

Pretty sure this isn't serious, but how would you even enforce something like that? You can't tell by looking at a man if he's cis/het.
You can issue him a cis/het or trans/gay card depending in his answers to questions regarding oppression obviously. How could that possibly go wrong.

consuming negativity

24th January 2015, 07:50

I mean, I don't wanna play 'oppression olympics' or something, but considering that biological women comprise just over half the world's population, whereas trans people are a tiny minority, I don't think it's so absurd that the safety of the former group would be prioritized. I don't think it should actually have to come down to sacrificing the safety of one group for the protection of the other, though. Surely people can advocate the addition of 'gender neutral' bathrooms without arguing that gendered bathrooms should all be converted into gender neutral ones?

Is this like the kind of white activist who complains about 'ugh white people' to try to be 'down'?

all I did was point out the logic involved. which of course ignores the fact that those categories (women and trans persons) aren't mutually exclusive.... but then what did I expect from someone taking the position that a minority of women being unsafe in public is an acceptable lesser evil?

if you can't tell that there is a joke embedded in my post then I don't know what to tell you. but I'm not like you.

Lily Briscoe

24th January 2015, 08:46

but then what did I expect from someone taking the position that a minority of women being unsafe in public is an acceptable lesser evil?

It's a strange thing to claim when, in the comment you've just quoted, I said this:
I don't think it should actually have to come down to sacrificing the safety of one group for the protection of the other, though.

consuming negativity

24th January 2015, 11:49

It's a strange thing to claim when, in the comment you've just quoted, I said this:

no, actually, it isn't. in the same comment, you said this:

I mean, I don't wanna play 'oppression olympics' or something, but considering that biological women comprise just over half the world's population, whereas trans people are a tiny minority, I don't think it's so absurd that the safety of the former group would be prioritized.your position is "i'm not saying trans persons should get the short end of the stick, but if there is a short end, i can see why they should get it". your position is "i'm not saying that trans persons should be unsafe going to the bathroom in public, but better them than me". as though there is a fucking dichotomy that exists in the first place where only one group of people can have their need for safety satisfied - you have created this false scenario and then chose the side of reaction. THAT is what is implied by your argument here. and you know what? it's the same bullshit argument that everybody who isn't willing to struggle alongside the rest of us has always made throughout history because it wasn't THEIR ass on the fucking line. or, at least, that's what they had deluded themselves into thinking. your position is truly fucking bogus and based on a fantasy world because the harassment, discrimination, etc. that transpersons face is inseparably linked to the same "red light" that goes off in (presumably your and) other women's heads when the idea of being in an enclosed public bathroom with men. you might be safe in the bathroom but as soon as you step back out where do you think you'll find yourself? so what the fuck is even the point in making the bathroom argument to be trans-exclusionary? the problem is the fucking men who are making everybody else uncomfortable and unable to co-exist in a fucking bathroom where we shit and piss and wash our face.

nah, fuck that, let's lol and tell communer he's being 2edgy4me because he didn't feel like typing out this goddamn post at work and assumed everyone else was on the same page!

Rosa Partizan

24th January 2015, 13:00

Lily Briscoe

24th January 2015, 15:31

your position is "i'm not saying trans persons should get the short end of the stick, but if there is a short end, i can see why they should get it". your position is "i'm not saying that trans persons should be unsafe going to the bathroom in public, but better them than me".

No, I don't think the safety of an individual biological woman is any more important than the safety of an individual transgender woman. My point was more about the numbers of people being placed at risk in either scenario. At any rate, the whole thrust of what I was saying was that it's not actually necessary to sacrifice the safety of one group for the protection of the other, although several people here seem to feel that it is...

No one here is arguing against gender neutral bathrooms being added to places for the protection of trans people. Several people are arguing that gendered bathrooms shouldn't exist in the here and now, however (who, in other words, think that it's worth sacrificing the safety of half the population for the sake of some symbolic victory against the gender binary).

airclay

24th January 2015, 16:00

Austin, tx has started working on this: http://www.austintexas.gov/news/new-gender-neutral-sign-regulations-single-use-commercial-restrooms-are-effect-0

I think they've chosen a good place to start, with the single occupancy restrooms only, hopefully it'll slowly educate the general public.

How do these rules fit in with this ongoing conversation? What do y'all think could be a downside to the manner it's being implemented?

BIXX

24th January 2015, 18:46

considering that biological women comprise just over half the world's population, whereas trans people are a tiny minority, I don't think it's so absurd that the safety of the former group would be prioritized.

Fuck off strix.

I know you go on to say that the safety of one shouldnt go above the other, but in effect you're saying you'd be OK with seeing it happen in favor of women, it seems. I don't know, maybe bad wording.

Lily Briscoe

24th January 2015, 20:22

I'm getting pretty bored of explaining that comment. If people here feel the need to sacrifice the safety of one group for the protection of the other (which many apparently do, although as I said it isn't necessary), I'm sorry but I find it really confusing why the conclusion would be to put over 50% of the population at greater risk for sexual harassment/assault in order to reduce the risk of sexual harassment/assault for, what, less than one percent of the population? The point had nothing to do with any idea that biological women are more 'valuable' than trans people or something absurd, it was about the number of people being put at risk in either scenario.

The Feral Underclass

24th January 2015, 20:56

Strix's argument assumes that transwomen are not women. Of course men should not be able to share toilets if female users do not feel safe doing so, but transwomen are not men are they?

Incidentally, I'm nominally involved in a campaign regarding a [preoperative] transwoman who was fired after she started to use the female only toilets. I'm assuming Strix therefore agrees that it was correct she was fired?

Lily Briscoe

24th January 2015, 21:05

Strix's argument assumes that transwomen are not women. No, it doesn't.

Incidentally, I'm nominally involved in a campaign regarding a [preoperative] transwoman who was fired after she started to use the female only toilets. I'm assuming Strix therefore agrees that it was correct she was fired?
No, I absolutely don't. I'm not sure what you're basing any of these assumptions on; they're completely out of left field. My objection was to the idea that all restrooms should be made gender neutral, not to the idea of trans women using women's restrooms, which of course they should be free to use.

Rosa Partizan

24th January 2015, 21:11

leave her alone, really. This is getting ridiculous. All that she said was that gender neutral toilets can be a threat for a very big part of the population. It's like saying "women shouldn't be forced to share toilets with men" and you guys jump down her throat responding "so you want transwomen to be in danger of male violence?" where the fuck did you get that from? Especially when she already said that this is not making up hierarchies concerning whose safety counts more.

consuming negativity

24th January 2015, 21:12

dude, chill down, what the fuck? Don't quote her out of context when in the next sentence, she's saying that no one should deny transpeople their needed safety from mbm. And not a single person here in this thread wrote that transpeople's safety should be sacrificed, so really, no reason to lash out like that.

she is the one who cherry-picked her own post - and you are supporting this cherry-picked view of what she said. read between the lines and you will realize that dd/pc is dead on the money and in a lot less words than i was. so why should i be calm about that? would you be calm if i said that your safety in public was less important than mine for some reason? of course not - you'd rightly be pissed. i wasn't disrespectful - i articulated vehement disagreement.

imagine if some candidate for some political office said "i'm completely in favor of equality for women but women shouldn't be allowed to work full time". and then you get pissed off because you rightly recognize that they are actually NOT in favor of equality because they support policies that would prevent equality that are actually really fucked up. and then imagine if i went "wow rosa, why don't you calm down, the candidate said they supported equality, why are you quoting them out of context?" i feel like i'm being gaslighted right now. what she said is right there

PC LOAD LETTER

24th January 2015, 21:16

Well this escalated. Just wanted to add that I've been to a few places with gender-neutral toilets here, as in not single-occupancy. They all had security posted right there to make sure nobody did anything crazy (drunk dudes). One had removed the main door so it couldn't be closed (there were stalls to use and they had doors). Single-occupancy unisex bathrooms are pretty common here, though.

Lily Briscoe

24th January 2015, 21:16

Beyond ridiculous.

imagine if some candidate for some political office said "i'm completely in favor of equality for women but women shouldn't be allowed to work full time". and then you get pissed off because you rightly recognize that they are actually NOT in favor of equality because they support policies that would prevent equality that are actually really fucked up.
I never said trans people shouldn't be able to use the restroom that corresponds to whatever gender they identify as, nor am I in any way opposed to the addition of gender neutral bathrooms. I don't usually abuse people like this on here, but you really are an absolute douchebag.

Rosa Partizan

24th January 2015, 21:17

Well this escalated. Just wanted to add that I've been to a few places with gender-neutral toilets here, as in not single-occupancy. They all had security posted right there to make sure nobody did anything crazy (drunk dudes). One had removed the main door so it couldn't be closed (there were stalls to use). Single-occupancy unisex bathrooms are pretty common here, though.

best solution ever.

The Feral Underclass

24th January 2015, 21:20

No, it doesn't.

No, I absolutely don't. I'm not sure what you're basing any of these assumptions on; they're completely out of left field. My objection was to the idea that all restrooms should be made gender neutral, not to the idea of trans women using women's restrooms, which of course they should be free to use.

You said: "I mean, I don't wanna play 'oppression olympics' or something, but considering that biological women comprise just over half the world's population, whereas trans people are a tiny minority, I don't think it's so absurd that the safety of the former group would be prioritized. I don't think it should actually have to come down to sacrificing the safety of one group for the protection of the other, though."

Why would there be a situation in which the safety of "biological women" (the majority) needed to be prioritised over "transwomen" (the minority) if you did not think that transwomen were not women...

You set up the dichotomy of biological women and transwomen as if this was somehow significant to your argument. I cannot see how that is significant to your argument unless you are starting from the assumption that transwomen are not really women...

Lily Briscoe

24th January 2015, 21:33

You said: "I mean, I don't wanna play 'oppression olympics' or something, but considering that biological women comprise just over half the world's population, whereas trans people are a tiny minority, I don't think it's so absurd that the safety of the former group would be prioritized. I don't think it should actually have to come down to sacrificing the safety of one group for the protection of the other, though."

Why would there be a situation in which the safety of "biological women" (the majority) needed to be prioritised over "transwomen" (the minority) if you did not think that transwomen were not women...

You set up the dichotomy of biological women and transwomen as if this was somehow significant to your argument. I cannot see how that is significant to your argument unless you are starting from the assumption that transwomen are not really women...

I don't even know what this means, but I do know what the intention is behind it... You having another opportunity to beat your chest. Have fun with that.

I have better things to do with my Saturday, bye!

The Feral Underclass

24th January 2015, 21:36

I don't even know what this means, but I do know what the intention is behind it... You having another opportunity to beat your chest. Have fun with that.

I have better things to do with my Saturday than argue with menchildren on the Internet, bye!

Hmm. To be honest, I was just trying to understand your argument.

I'm not really sure how I can be any clearer in my meaning. You said that biological women were a majority and therefore their safety took priority over transwomen, which is a minority. I am trying to understand what the purpose of the differentiation is. Why would you need to make a distinction between biological women and transwomen and their safety in regards to the use of toilets unless you thought that transwomen were not women...? It's a fairly straightforward question.

Lily Briscoe

25th January 2015, 00:39

Hmm. To be honest, I was just trying to understand your argument.

I think if you were simply trying to understand my argument, you wouldn't have insinuated right out of the gate that I'm a transphobe who supports transwomen being fired for using the women's restroom (when in fact I would be absolutely, vehemently opposed to that, and think that transgender people should be able to use whichever restroom they wish).

The entire discussion is about whether making all restrooms gender neutral to protect trans people is a good idea, even if it comes at the expense of putting the majority of women, who use gendered restrooms without issue (whom yes, are mostly biological/cisgendered women), at increased risk for sexual harassment and assault (or whether it is possible to use other measures to protect trans people from harassment in public restrooms without putting the majority of women at an increased risk).

I am not the one who introduced the distinction between cisgender women and trans people into this thread; it is really the entire basis for the discussion that has unfolded. Nor was I aware that anyone believes making this distinction is akin to denying that transgender women are women. I definitely wouldn't deny that transgender women are women.