MRA shooter kills several people

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

From the Southern Poverty Law Center
http://splcenter.org/blog/2014/05/24/shooting-suspect-elliot-rodgers-misogynistic-posts-point-to-motive/



Elliot Rodger, who died after allegedly carrying out a series of drive-by shootings (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-santa-barbara-deadly-shooting-20140524-story.html) from behind the wheel of his BMW last night near the University of California, Santa Barbara campus, wrote in November that he wanted to “overthrow this oppressive feminist system” and create a “world where WOMEN FEAR YOU.”
Hours before the attack, Rodger – son of “Hunger Games” assistant director Peter Rodger – posted a deeply misogynistic video (http://splcenter.org/blog/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-isla-vista-shooting-suspect-posted-misogynistic-video-before-attack/) on YouTube in which he pledged to exact revenge (http://splcenter.org/blog/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-isla-vista-shooting-suspect-posted-misogynistic-video-before-attack/) for being rejected by women. “If I can’t have you, girls, I will destroy you,” he says.
A review of Rodger’s online writing suggests an ideology behind his lust for revenge. As I noted earlier today (http://splcenter.org/blog/2014/05/24/elliot-rodger-isla-vista-shooting-suspect-posted-racist-messages-on-misogynistic-website/), Rodger was an active member of PuaHate.com, an online message board whose users lament that women are not attracted to them. The self-pitying participants frequently identify themselves as “incels” – short for involuntary celibate – and engage in misogynistic attacks on women.


Rodger appeared to view himself as something of an incel revolutionary. In November, Rodger reacted angrily to another user who suggested that lucid dreaming might be an acceptable stand-in for sex. “If all incels were to start getting sedated by lucid dreaming, incels will become docile and there will be no revolution,” he wrote.
Instead, Rodger wrote that incels must go on offense: “If we can’t solve our problems we must DESTROY our problems.” He concluded with a call to arms against women:
One day incels will realize their true strength and numbers, and will overthrow this oppressive feminist system.
Start envisioning a world where WOMEN FEAR YOU.
Rodger had a similar reaction a month earlier in October when a user suggested virtual reality as an outlet for incels: “No… this is a dark future for incels. It will only keep them sedated and prevent the revolution that needs to happen.”
In January, another frequent PuaHate user – “The Purifier” – argued that “Incels should go on strike” with the aim of an “Incel Revolution against women and feminism”:
All Incels should go on strike for a few days, our first blow against a society that oppresses us. Women treat us like we are a waste of space, that we are unworthy. Society thinks you are scum, so stop contributing to it by working your shitty, mundane, slave-like jobs. Go on strike until the world gives some recognition to our plight.
This will be a first, incremental step towards the full on Incel Revolution against women and feminism.
Another user quickly responded to say that the “majority of incels are most likely high inhibition so this would never happen.” Rodger chided that user, asking “Why are you so pessimistic?”
Rodger, who wrote in April 2013 on PuaHate that “Revenge is something to live for,” was apparently committed to bringing about this revolution.
At least one other PuaHate user regards Rodger as a hero for his commitment. In a post from 2:48 AM today entitled, “A hero on Puahate; and conclusions thereof,” the user offered this summation:
-Elliot Rodger is a hero
-Shot people
-Is now dead
-A puahate member
Keep in mind incels, this forum is a place to “funnel” dangerous people, and is being tracked. Keep your posts mundane and your fucking terrorist attacks to yourself.

[Comrade Jacob]

I saw his video and immediately I saw a pretentious swine. Shame he didn't put a bullet through his brain first.

[BITW434]

The sad reality is that he is not just one of the few men who think that, I have encountered too many guys like him in the past...

[Naroc]

That guy was just a misogynist, self-centered twat with a completely disturbed view on what justice is. He's been a virgin with 22 (!!!) years, and uses this to justify the murder on 6 people? Right after the motto: "If i can't get laid, nobody should!". There are so many people in the world who'd be jealous of the life he had.

...The hell is wrong with guys like him...

[Per Levy]

good video on the subject, with several clips from that guys videos.

eU1Bo7j8FQE


That guy was just a misogynist, self-centered twat

that is pretty damn ironic, complaining about misogyny and useing sexist language.

[Naroc]

that is pretty damn ironic, complaining about misogyny and useing sexist language.
You're damn right, because now i noticed i used the wrong word and confused it with turd. My knowledge of english swear words is pretty limited :grin: You may forgive me that little fauxpas

[Quail]

That guy was just a misogynist, self-centered twat
Verbal warning for prejudiced language. Please refrain from using words like "twat" as slurs.

---

The clips from his videos in the video that Per Levy posted made me feel sick to be honest. The entitlement is just mind-blowing. Men like him are angry because they feel as though they are entitled to "beautiful women" and sex, and they feel like they are being denied their right. It would be pathetic if it wasn't so dangerous.

[Redistribute the Rep]

http://t.mediaite.com/mediaite/#!/entry/ucsb-shooter-elliot-rodger-posted-racist-messages-on-puahate-website,538113b2b7d8d24162dcfacb

He was also a racist. Couldn't handle seeing a black guy with girls whom apparently only "superior gentlemen" like himself are entitled to.

[Dr Doom]

spoilt rich kid who thought just because he had everything literally handed to him in life, assumed this included women. tool.

[Redistribute the Rep]

spoilt rich kid who thought just because he had everything literally handed to him in life, assumed this included women. tool.

Definitely had some internalized racism, as seen in the article. He called other Asians pieces of shit and told them to jump off bridges because they aren't good enough for white women (he himself was half Asian)

[Naroc]

Verbal warning for prejudiced language. Please refrain from using words like "twat" as slurs.

Aye,aye! But as i already said, i didn't used that word intentionally.

Back to topic:
This guy was a stereotype of a spoiled "I get what i want because my parents are rich" brat. I think this is the main reason why he freaked out so much about such simple things. He drove a BMW - when i remember correctly - ,bought sunglasses for over 250$, and the list goes on. In his way of thinking, he is predestined to get a lot of women, due to the fact that he has money and is the "ultimate gentleman" as he calls himself. And when he met reality he couldn't handle the fact that women may have a different view on him as he had on himself.

Edit: As i just saw, Dr Doom summarized all i said into one sentence :D

[synthesis]

This might be an unpopular opinion - obviously his videos and the ideology expressed in them are enormously repugnant - but I think it's difficult not to see this as just another nutjob who was looking for an excuse to go on a killing spree. They can be anti-Semites, anti-government, anti-NWO, or anti-feminism, but I think it's a mistake to say that any of those ideologies "creates" this sort of thing - not that anyone here is doing that, as far as I can tell, and they do seem to all come from the far-right, but I'm not sure that the specific strain of reaction is the function rather than the form, so to speak. To me this is primarily an issue of mental health.


good video on the subject, with several clips from that guys videos.

Wow, she nailed it with the American Psycho reference.

[Lord Testicles]

A sad little man who thought that human relationships were a right as opposed to a privilege. It a real pity that he didn't channel all that anger and depression into a quiet suicide.

[Redistribute the Rep]

After watching some of his videos, I don't think this is just about entitlement as other users have been saying( although his wealth and this culture of entitlement did contribute some). This guy was severely mentally ill and created an alternate reality around himself. I do wish that our society would provide more treatment for these people. This is not a normal case of entitlement, this guy was very sick.

[BIXX]

After watching some of his videos, I don't think this is just about entitlement as other users have been saying( although his wealth and this culture of entitlement did contribute some). This guy was severely mentally ill and created an alternate reality around himself. I do wish that our society would provide more treatment for these people. This is not a normal case of entitlement, this guy was very sick.


Most people who are as entitled and privileged as him are sick. Very, very sick.

[Redistribute the Rep]

Most people who are as entitled and privileged as him are sick. Very, very sick.

Yea but I've met a lot of entitled people (my town has a lot of obnoxious rich kids) but this guy is so beyond that it's like he's completely alienated from reality. Like I watched a video where he was watching this couple kiss and his reaction to it was just so... eerie... I don't even know but a lot of users are just brushing this off as entitlement when it looks like a lot more than that to me.

[Lynx]

I'm wondering if this is related to the larger phenomena of Nice Guy Syndrome?
e.g. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nice%20Guy%20Syndrome

[Diirez]

This guy is way too entitled. As if the entire female gender revolves around him and if they don't then they deserve punishment.

He mentioned that humanity is a sad species in the video, too bad he had it wrong. People like him are what destroy humanity.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

After watching some of his videos, I don't think this is just about entitlement as other users have been saying( although his wealth and this culture of entitlement did contribute some). This guy was severely mentally ill and created an alternate reality around himself. I do wish that our society would provide more treatment for these people. This is not a normal case of entitlement, this guy was very sick.

I don't think you can just say 'he was mentally ill'. Everyone has delusions, some more than others, when you think about it religion is often more delusional than the crap he is spouting.

It's not ok to simply call people with abhorrent views 'sick'. It doesn't really help anyone, and it's not a good habit to get into (Stalin's 'sluggish schizophrenia' and counter-revolutionary disease comes to mind).

The whole idea of 'personality disorders' et all is very controversial in itself, and I don't think your homemade diagnosis of 'mental illness' based on a few youtube videos is accurate, valid or helpful.

The reality of the situation is surely far more complex, and it's worth examining in detail in order to prevent the same kind of thing happening in the future.

[Redistribute the Rep]

I don't think you can just say 'he was mentally ill'. Everyone has delusions, some more than others, when you think about it religion is often more delusional than the crap he is spouting.

It's not ok to simply call people with abhorrent views 'sick'. It doesn't really help anyone, and it's not a good habit to get into (Stalin's 'sluggish schizophrenia' and counter-revolutionary disease comes to mind).

The whole idea of 'personality disorders' et all is very controversial in itself, and I don't think your homemade diagnosis of 'mental illness' based on a few youtube videos is accurate, valid or helpful.

The reality of the situation is surely far more complex, and it's worth examining in detail in order to prevent the same kind of thing happening in the future.

Actually, from what I understand he was diagnosed and was being treated for several mental illnesses, so no it was not a "homemade diagnosis." And yes, I already said it was complex and our entitlement culture plays a role so why don't you go back and read my post

[DOOM]

Q8syYRKjb6o
What the fruck is wrong with this guy? Seriously, his "maniac-laughter" just sounds pathetic and his self-pity is just embarassing. Fucking misogynist

[synthesis]

I don't think you can just say 'he was mentally ill'. Everyone has delusions, some more than others, when you think about it religion is often more delusional than the crap he is spouting.

It's not ok to simply call people with abhorrent views 'sick'. It doesn't really help anyone, and it's not a good habit to get into (Stalin's 'sluggish schizophrenia' and counter-revolutionary disease comes to mind).

The whole idea of 'personality disorders' et all is very controversial in itself, and I don't think your homemade diagnosis of 'mental illness' based on a few youtube videos is accurate, valid or helpful.

The reality of the situation is surely far more complex, and it's worth examining in detail in order to prevent the same kind of thing happening in the future.

You don't think it's appropriate to discuss the mental health of someone who goes on a suicidal shooting rampage?

[MarcusJuniusBrutus]

I realize that masculinity is a social construction just like every other kind of personal identity. Having said that, however, I think I am on safe ground saying that if you hate women or--harram!--hurt them, you are not a real man. Real men exercise a modicum of self-control. Failure to do so makes him a juvenile. Kids have temper tantrums. Adults for the most part do not. Shooting unarmed victims for no reason but self gratification is the height of cowardice.

[Rosa Partizan]

I don't think you can just say 'he was mentally ill'. Everyone has delusions, some more than others, when you think about it religion is often more delusional than the crap he is spouting.

It's not ok to simply call people with abhorrent views 'sick'. It doesn't really help anyone, and it's not a good habit to get into (Stalin's 'sluggish schizophrenia' and counter-revolutionary disease comes to mind).

The whole idea of 'personality disorders' et all is very controversial in itself, and I don't think your homemade diagnosis of 'mental illness' based on a few youtube videos is accurate, valid or helpful.

The reality of the situation is surely far more complex, and it's worth examining in detail in order to prevent the same kind of thing happening in the future.

well, but, isn't it kinda very certain to say that someone who does such abhorrent things must be somehow having some severe mental issues? I agree on synthesis saying that "only" a sexist mindset doesn't lead to killing anyone. Yeah, it's always several factors, and of course most people with mental issues don't go around and kill people, but I see nothing wrong in saying that this guy had problems beyond his misogynist world view.

[Rss]

Worst thing is that there are tons of people who regard this piece of shit as their martyr.

"I'm such a nice guy, why do girls fall on dumb brutes...?:crying:"

I've heard those words too many times.

[Redistribute the Rep]

Worst thing is that there are tons of people who regard this piece of shit as their martyr.

"I'm such a nice guy, why do girls fall on dumb brutes...?:crying:"

I've heard those words too many times.

The thing is every guy I've heard say that isn't even remotely close to being considered 'nice'. This time somebody with a mental illness bought into all the bullshit and now 7+ people are dead.

[synthesis]

Yeah, it's always several factors, and of course most people with mental issues don't go around and kill people, but I see nothing wrong in saying that this guy had problems beyond his misogynist world view.

I would go further and say that the misogyny is about as relevant as Ted Kaczynski's views on technology or Seung-Hui Cho's views on "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans." It is the form; the function is something much different, although not entirely unrelated, as these sorts of atrocities almost always come from mentally isolated and unstable far-right lunatics.

I think in discussions like this, people are subject to a sort of confirmation bias: MRA is genuinely repulsive and seems to be gaining momentum in a very ominous way, so the temptation to try to present the shooting and the ideology as inextricable is enormous, almost ineluctable. It's similar to the liberal journalists who scrambled to link the Kathleen Giffords shooting to Republican rhetoric at the time that could be interpreted as encouraging violence, when the more obvious conclusion from a "nonpartisan" perspective was that the guy was mainly just off his fucking rocker (http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/4d2b84a349e2ae5f71130000-480/jared-lee-loughner.png).

So the political and the personal are indeed intertwined, but for reasons that aren't as simple as "right-wing = bad," having more to do with how the agenda of the left requires social cohesion, whereas individual terrorism is something that is seen as productive by the right because "isolated" attacks on patterns of social cohesion ultimately do serve the interests of male dominance, white dominance, and so on. A straightforward link between his forum activity on MRA sites and the shooting is still a complete simplism; when it comes to events such as this, these agendas can only light the spark under someone who is already a powderkeg of mental instability. Suicide by cop is ultimately the primary motivation, but there is often also a desire to feel like the act will "mean something" if it is done for "a larger cause."

[Sasha]

A good piece by Laurie Penny, she very much disagrees with you Synthesis, and I must say I'm with her in this: http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2014/05/lets-call-isla-vista-killings-what-they-were-misogynist-extremism

[synthesis]

Right on. I'd say I agree with about 75% of it. Again, my issue with such an analysis is that it seeks to present these sorts of attacks - again, whether inspired by anti-Semitism, anti-fed, or whatever else is the current cause celebre of right-wing dickheads - as qualitatively different from attacks that are just straightforward acts of the mentally ill.

I can't honestly tell what her argument is - in terms of contradicting mine - except that we shouldn't "ignore" MRA as right-wing extremists, which I don't think is implicit in my argument at all. So, Sasha, I'm curious: which parts of that essay do you think rebuke points that I've made here?

[Redistribute the Rep]

A good piece by Laurie Penny, she very much disagrees with you Synthesis, and I must say I'm with her in this: http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2014/05/lets-call-isla-vista-killings-what-they-were-misogynist-extremism

Oh God, why?! Why did I let myself read the comments?!

Anyway, synthesis: I don't think her article really contradicted your argument, I think she's just trying to say that people who passively encourage misogyny and MRA bullshit, while not necessarily being directly involved in the violence, contribute to the few cases where nutjobs actually take their sentiment to heart.

For example, you often hear people say that "liberalism is a mental disorder" (and no I'm not trying to defend the liberals, it's just an absurd claim that I often see on the internet). While almost everybody who says this doesn't actually mean it, every once in a while someone who is prone to violence sees it and decides to do something extreme. So, what I take from the article is that the author is saying that the culture of misogyny opens doors for mentality ill people like this to commit terrible acts of violence.

[BIXX]

Eh. Can we not maybe look at this similar to other cases where the extremely wealthy have done fucked up shit?

The bourgeois scum who raped his toddler for example.

Or the rich kids who killed a bunch of people and got away with it because they suffered from "affluenza".

My point is why are we suddenly looking at his mental state if not theirs? Wasn't his parent like, assistant director of the hunger games? If so then we can assume he is very rich (plus other evidence such as the car). I just fail to see why we are looking at his mental state vs those other people, whom many leftists just were focused on the fact that they got away. What we seem to be seeing is that the class he came from made him hyper privileged, just like these other people, so they commit these absolutely insane acts. That doesn't excuse them, but it could offer an explanation.

I guess I don't like the way this has been framed as mental illness/misogyny only. It seems that this could open the door for more blaming the mentally ill for shit (like has been done in the past on this board), when for the most part it seems mentally ill folks are nonviolent.

Sorry for rambling.

[RedHal]

This guy was just full of himself and had everything handed to him in life, so he thought he was entitled to any women he desired too, the worse of bourgeois scum. I wonder, if he had not killed himself, would he be another case of affluenza?

[Os Cangaceiros]

It's kind of difficult for me to comment on this, because the rationale for the attack is just so ridiculous and absurd, it almost makes me want to make jokes about it, but on the other hand people actually died, so it's not really that funny when viewed in that light. I don't think it would've been funny if this guy was so lonely that he just shot himself and no one else even. That's just depressing, although the terrible crime against innocent life that this asshole committed obviously limits my capacity for empathy.

If you were to show me a still image of that guy, and then tell me that he's 22, drives a nice car and probably has fat stacks o' cash from his father who's a known figure in the film industry, I'd probably go out on a limb and say that he's somewhat popular and I'd be puzzled as to why he couldn't find some women to go out with. But then he opens his mouth and I think, "Ah! That's the reason! He's a psychopath with delusions of grandeur!" He's so lost in his own world that he doesn't know or care how ridiculous he sounds, despite putting the video out for the world to see...as someone on YouTube put it, he sounds like he's auditioning for a Shakespearean improv performance LOL (but then I realize that people died and I feel guilty for laughing)

It's also a little hard for me to believe that people would drink so much of the MRA/PUA Kool-Aid that they'd feel the need to judge their worth as a human being on it, and kill other human beings...

[Os Cangaceiros]

It seems that this could open the door for more blaming the mentally ill for shit (like has been done in the past on this board), when for the most part it seems mentally ill folks are nonviolent.

Sorry for rambling.

Mentally ill people are far more likely to be the victims of crime than the perpetrators.

[synthesis]

Eh. Can we not maybe look at this similar to other cases where the extremely wealthy have done fucked up shit?

The bourgeois scum who raped his toddler for example.

Or the rich kids who killed a bunch of people and got away with it because they suffered from "affluenza".

Well, this guy went on a suicidal rampage, which sort of inherently precludes "getting away with it."

Your point is that the mental illness/misogyny debate omits discussion of the relevance of class, correct?

[synthesis]

What the fruck is wrong with this guy? Seriously, his "maniac-laughter" just sounds pathetic and his self-pity is just embarassing. Fucking misogynist

Wow, I just watched that video. It completely feels like I'm watching "Exhibit A" being shown to a jury on a lackluster episode of a shitty TV legal drama, but the fact that it was actually made as a prelude to something like this makes it incredibly surreal. My rational mind knows I should be horrified, and I am, but my instinctive side just screams at me, "This can't be real." It just boggles my mind that someone would kill a bunch of people while consciously positing themselves as some sort of supervillain or whatever the fuck he was going for in that clip.

[Sheepy]

When ever a privileged white kid kills a bunch of people, he has a mental illness. If Arabic were his first language, he'd be labeled 'Most Hated Terrorist of the Month'.

This irredeemable act was carried out in the name of ideology, one that many follow. If he has a mental illness then so do they. Do not try to say this wasn't, because you'd be dead fucking wrong.

[Rosa Partizan]

goddamn foxnews, stop being stupid for at least once :glare:

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/05/25/fox-news-psychotherapist-california-shootings-were-caused-by-homosexual-impulses/

[Left Voice]

Unfortunately, the kind of misogynistic attitudes displayed by this kid are becoming increasing more acceptable in society, albeit actualised in less extreme ways.

The whole 'friendzone' idea popularised by the internet has resulted in a massive growth of 'acceptable' misogynistic attitudes. I'm aware that the original idea of a 'friendzone' was very different (a hypothesis that the longer a person knows somebody, the less likely they are to engage in a relationship), but in the sense that is has been popularised, it places the blame for a man's failure to find a girlfriend onto females as a whole. Men who subscribe to the 'friendzone' idea see themselves as unquestionably perfect guys, and thus the only explanation for a girl rejecting their advances must be because they want some 'obnoxious' bad guys. It never occurs to these people that a girl has the right to date or reject any guy (or girl, or neither) for whatever reason they want. It has bred an attitude of entitlement that seems to be growing among certain men. This is evident from the rant that this kid makes in the video. He seems himself as a victim for something that is ultimately just life, it never occurs to him that he might not be a nice guy after all, or that even if he was - why should that matter? He ironically demonstrates his obnoxiousness with the video and his later acts.

Hadn't had sex by 22? Didn't have sex at college? This is hardly uncommon, nor anything to be ashamed of. There's no law that says good guys should necessarily find a girlfriend quickly, or at all. The 'perfect guy' and 'gentleman' being rejected for 'obnoxious' guys? Maybe he should have watched his own video first.

A product of a growing misogynistic blame culture that seems to be becoming increasingly socially acceptable.

[Naroc]

Unfortunately, the kind of misogynistic attitudes displayed by this kid are becoming increasing more acceptable in society, albeit actualised in less extreme ways.

The whole 'friendzone' idea popularised by the internet has resulted in a massive growth of 'acceptable' misogynistic attitudes. I'm aware that the original idea of a 'friendzone' was very different (a hypothesis that the longer a person knows somebody, the less likely they are to engage in a relationship), but in the sense that is has been popularised, it places the blame for a man's failure to find a girlfriend onto females as a whole. Men who subscribe to the 'friendzone' idea see themselves as unquestionably perfect guys, and thus the only explanation for a girl rejecting their advances must be because they want some 'obnoxious' bad guys. It never occurs to these people that a girl has the right to date or reject any guy (or girl, or neither) for whatever reason they want. It has bred an attitude of entitlement that seems to be growing among certain men. This is evident from the rant that this kid makes in the video. He seems himself as a victim for something that is ultimately just life, it never occurs to him that he might not be a nice guy after all, or that even if he was - why should that matter? He ironically demonstrates his obnoxiousness with the video and his later acts.

Hadn't had sex by 22? Didn't have sex at college? This is hardly uncommon, nor anything to be ashamed of. There's no law that says good guys should necessarily find a girlfriend quickly, or at all. The 'perfect guy' and 'gentleman' being rejected for 'obnoxious' guys? Maybe he should have watched his own video first.

A product of a growing misogynistic blame culture that seems to be becoming increasingly socially acceptable.
That's exactly what i discovered over the last few years. Whining about why women reject all the nice guys while negating the right for women to date whoever they want (what should be common sense). As an (maybe a bit unfitting?) example, especially when you bring it to the context of this internet phenomenon: Who's been scrolling through 9Gag over the past 2-3 years could've observe a strong increase in such mentioned posts which are complaining about girls. There's been a time where it was common sense there that if a girl rejects a guy it is her fault (at least for a kinda large part of the community, it didn't apply to anyone there of course) because the guy was "the perfect gentlemen but she fell for the scumbags". Sounds familiar,doesn't it?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

This might be an unpopular opinion - obviously his videos and the ideology expressed in them are enormously repugnant - but I think it's difficult not to see this as just another nutjob who was looking for an excuse to go on a killing spree. They can be anti-Semites, anti-government, anti-NWO, or anti-feminism, but I think it's a mistake to say that any of those ideologies "creates" this sort of thing - not that anyone here is doing that, as far as I can tell, and they do seem to all come from the far-right, but I'm not sure that the specific strain of reaction is the function rather than the form, so to speak. To me this is primarily an issue of mental health.

On the contrary, I think it is extremely difficult to see this as an example of a "nutjob" "looking for an excuse to go on a killing spree", because that implies that some people want to kill a large amount of other people at high risk to themselves and without any form of social sanction (unlike e.g. working as a policeman or soldier), for no actual reason, which I think is borderline-incoherent. Furthermore, if this is the case, why do we not see weird Pol-Potist spree killers, or gender-neutral misanthropic spree killers etc.? I do think misogynist ideology leads to cases such as this. I don't see how any other conclusion is tenable.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

I think it's fairly clear from the way he talks what the problem is. He is different, he became isolated, he became bitter, he wasn't even slightly invested in the world, and he lashed out at what he saw to be the problem.

In world where well over 1 in 4 have had serious depression and other mental issues, it's just not enough to say 'crazy' and have that be an explanation. That's essentially what you are doing when you blame it on 'mental illness'.

What constitutes mental health (in opposition to mental illness)? What constitutes personality order (in opposition to personality disorder)?

'Mental illness' is a made up phrase to describe someone who has crossed an arbitrary line from quite different to slightly more different. It describes a person's situation in comparison to the rest of society. People feel alienation for all sorts of reasons; it's a crappy world, I would personally find someone who thought what is going on OK to be weird.

I think people who know something is wrong with the world look around to find the problem, and sometimes are lead astray by the hands reaching out to help them, they can fall into racism, fascism and sexism. Sometimes they come to these conclusions themselves. We must put forward our own hands, and do what we can to make sure people do not find solace in misogyny and the rest.

I think it's clear that this guy wanted a normal life - with a girlfriend, sexual encounters, friends, and general social interaction. He wanted to be normal, but the normal people wouldn't have him because he is strange, and it is a function of our society to distrust and mock that which is different. I have known people who talk differently and have odd mannerisms, and they don't have a very easy life. They are rejected by their peers (from a very early age) and become isolated; retreating into themselves. They create alternate realities because the actual reality is shit.

Usually these alternate realities/delusions are comforting to these people and harmless. I knew a teenager who wholeheartedly believed in dragons. He wanted to become a palaeontologist (right up until I last spoke to him age 18/19) because he wanted to embark on a quest to find dragon bones.

This is another important point. When life is shit for someone, this person is much more likely to ask why. What is the point? Existential depression is a very dark road that anyone can find themselves on. When inherited views become inadequate, people search for truth where there is none. Camus and the absurdists believed that this can end in one of three ways...

1. Accepting the absurd, and lack of meaning (not very comforting at all)

2. A leap of faith, delusions (gods, immortal dragons etc.)

3. Suicide (an end to misery)

You do not have to be 'crazy' to get here. With the right conditions, anyone can reach this point. Each possibility is about as likely as the other. Unless you have been here, and known what it feels like, you cannot judge anyone for taking either of the easier ways out, they are very tempting.

People will cling to anything when they have nothing. These people may well feel very bitter about it. They may well lash out as this guy did. Very normal people can be capable of horrific violence in extreme situations.

This guy was a bit strange to start off with, but the world lead him to this point. It could have been Jews or Capitalism or anything else that he blamed it on, but because of his particular situation (and conditioning) he chose women. It's a shame for the people he killed that the world is not more accepting of those that are different. Calling them 'mentally ill' isn't perhaps the best place to start.

I think this guy's conditioning regarding entitlement had a great deal to do with what happened - it may well have been the difference between reacting with violence to the perceived problem, and quietly killing himself. Neither are fantastic results, but one is certainly better than the other.

I would like to think we can learn from this situation. Everyone is different, and some are more different than others, we shouldn't label them crazy, insane or sick - to do so is abhorrent, and really only for your own comfort.

To each according to need, from each according to ability.

We should not discriminate who we bother with based on how 'normal' they are.

This post is but a fraction of what I would like to say. It focuses on only one area (how I think he got here) I'm sure you will recognise that I think the particular crowd he fell into, and his entitled upbringing were the difference between a violent end and a peaceful one.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Why do people assume that he felt excluded, isolated etc. before coming into contact with MRA nonsense? I think the more likely hypothesis is that MRA ideology, coupled with his social and class position and a sexual desire for women, led to him feeling excluded, "cheated" out of sexual contact that was "his" by some kind of natural right etc. This, coupled with, again, natural tendencies to disregard other people due to his class position and the dehumanisation of feminists and "sluts" inherent in MRA, led to these events.

[synthesis]

On the contrary, I think it is extremely difficult to see this as an example of a "nutjob" "looking for an excuse to go on a killing spree", because that implies that some people want to kill a large amount of other people at high risk to themselves and without any form of social sanction (unlike e.g. working as a policeman or soldier), for no actual reason, which I think is borderline-incoherent.

I don't think it implies that at all. You say it's for "no actual reason," I say it's "suicide by cop." I really fail to see how you can infer that the "high risk/social sanction" rational/objective decision model makes sense here. Maybe it doesn't make sense to you because in the U.S. we've become accustomed to the fact that any loon can get serious weaponry and exercise his suicidal/homicidal impulses for any reason imaginable.

[ola.]

Q8syYRKjb6o
What the fruck is wrong with this guy? Seriously, his "maniac-laughter" just sounds pathetic and his self-pity is just embarassing. Fucking misogynist

That was one of the most fucked up videos I've ever seen. I can't believe there are people that really talk and think like that. Reading about the Nice Guy Syndrome on forums and internet debates was one thing, but seeing it in live action is certainly another, I have to say now. The villainous-type laughter, the utterly self-entitled behaviour and the "All I ever wanted to do was to love you" crap only to be followed by "If I can't have you, I will destroy you". Shit. I would have just laughed at this video and wrote him off as another nerd if I didn't know such a mentality had actually led to violence. But the video, I guess, just goes to show that these mentalities shouldn't ever just be written off as disconnected from a greater social structure that produces real harmful consequences against vulnerable groups of people, and we don't have to wait for mass shootings to know that.

[synthesis]

I think the primary factor of MRA ideology in this specific instance is that it provides sexually frustrated men with the whole framework of "involuntary celibacy," which allows them to politicize their own virginity and get self-righteous about it.

[Redistribute the Rep]

Why do people assume that he felt excluded, isolated etc. before coming into contact with MRA nonsense? I think the more likely hypothesis is that MRA ideology, coupled with his social and class position and a sexual desire for women, led to him feeling excluded, "cheated" out of sexual contact that was "his" by some kind of natural right etc. This, coupled with, again, natural tendencies to disregard other people due to his class position and the dehumanisation of feminists and "sluts" inherent in MRA, led to these events.

Well he talked about his life in his manifesto and it would seem that he did feel excluded and isolated before becoming an MRA. I think people like this are attracted to MRA sites because it allows them to put the blame for their sadness on women

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

I realize that masculinity is a social construction just like every other kind of personal identity. Having said that, however, I think I am on safe ground saying that if you hate women or--harram!--hurt them, you are not a real man. Real men exercise a modicum of self-control. Failure to do so makes him a juvenile. Kids have temper tantrums. Adults for the most part do not. Shooting unarmed victims for no reason but self gratification is the height of cowardice.
There is not a single sentence in this post that rings true.

Your criteria for being a "real man", which is apparently being an "adult", has no basis except in the prejudices of bourgeois culture. Adults, just like "juveniles", are not immune from the daily pressures of life, and are only obliged to act in a more "mature" manner by the social expectation of emotional suppression, not in accordance with how they actually feel. There is self-control, and then there is self-control.

I also find your interpretation of the word "cowardice" a bit problematic, in that it could apply to almost any murderer. Cowardice is defined by the lack of courage in the face of difficulty. This will not do for those members of the US government; it is unlikely that these people are afraid of facing up to their actions because they are, in effect, above the law.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

I think the primary factor of MRA ideology in this specific instance is that it provides sexually frustrated men with the whole framework of "involuntary celibacy," which allows them to politicize their own virginity and get self-righteous about it.
I find the specific formulation of your comment difficult to swallow. The way you phrase it, especially the use of "self-righteous", seems to imply that Rodger adopted his views in bad faith--in other words, he adopted MRA with the full knowledge that they were wrong and intended to be a martyr for his frustrated sexual desires. I find this to have too much in common with bourgeois media spokesman who rationalize these tragic events as a specific product of the killer's character flaws, thereby burying any deeper investigation into widespread social problems; the media circus that erupted in the aftermath of Columbine easily comes to mind. In that case, Harris and Klebold's sympathy with fascism was publicized greatly...but that was about it. My point is that your post may be a concise explanation for a silly ideology, but it tells us next to nothing about the social and political conditions that made somebody like Elliot Rodger possible.

[Rosa Partizan]

btw, I know this is just a sideline issue, but why the fuck is it so easy for every psycho there to get a gun? Yeah, I know, the gun is not the main problem, it's only the syndrome of his perverted mindset, but how far would he have gotten without it? Why do you facilitate such sad events by allowing literally everyone to get a fucking gun?

[Alexios]

btw, I know this is just a sideline issue, but why the fuck is it so easy for every psycho there to get a gun? Yeah, I know, the gun is not the main problem, it's only the syndrome of his perverted mindset, but how far would he have gotten without it? Why do you facilitate such sad events by allowing literally everyone to get a fucking gun?

The laws out west are extremely loose. He probably could have just taken a drive to Nevada and bought a handgun at Walmart without even having to show ID. The only thing that would prevent this would be a federally enforced law regulating state gun laws, which would never happen. Not that communists should be agitating for such a thing anyway.

[Sasha]

Not even for clear mental health problems? he had 3 legal guns and his parrents called the cops on him because he was mental, Im sure you don't mind regulating unsupervised kids having acces to guns so why should the mentally disturbed?

Also for those discussing his deeper motivations; http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/tiqqun-bloom-theory

[Loony Le Fist]

btw, I know this is just a sideline issue, but why the fuck is it so easy for every psycho there to get a gun? Yeah, I know, the gun is not the main problem, it's only the syndrome of his perverted mindset, but how far would he have gotten without it? Why do you facilitate such sad events by allowing literally everyone to get a fucking gun?

Well I think the main problem in the US is the extreme lack of mental healthcare. In the US mental health is not really taken seriously. It is often seen as a personal failing. This is of course true of other countries where self-loathing permeates the culture. Usually people can only afford the medications, without the necessary counselling and coping skills development that comes along with it.

In Canada, for example, it is possible to get certain kinds of weapons that are even more dangerous and concealable, like short-barrel shotguns that are illegal in the states. Also, the number of guns per capita is comparable. Yet, they don't have mass shootings on a weekly basis, like the US seems to be having lately. There is an awful culture of violence in the states. I strongly believe in gun rights, but I hate the gun culture here, and I am very much against the NRA.

[synthesis]

Well I think the main problem in the US is the extreme lack of mental healthcare. In the US mental health is not really taken seriously. It is often seen as a personal failing. This is of course true of other countries where self-loathing permeates the culture. Usually people can only afford the medications, without the necessary counselling and coping skills development that comes along with it.

I think it's both, to be honest. In this case I'm tempted to say it skews towards the availability of guns, due to the wealth of the perpetrator.


I find the specific formulation of your comment difficult to swallow. The way you phrase it, especially the use of "self-righteous", seems to imply that Rodger adopted his views in bad faith--in other words, he adopted MRA with the full knowledge that they were wrong and intended to be a martyr for his frustrated sexual desires.

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but you'll have to rephrase this for me, because the way I'm reading it now, I have no idea how you could get that from my post. I was referring to the section in the OP's article wherein he talked about an "incel revolution" or some shit like that.

[synthesis]

btw, I know this is just a sideline issue, but why the fuck is it so easy for every psycho there to get a gun? Yeah, I know, the gun is not the main problem, it's only the syndrome of his perverted mindset, but how far would he have gotten without it? Why do you facilitate such sad events by allowing literally everyone to get a fucking gun?

I think "gun culture" arose in the U.S. primarily due to homesteading, but now it's primarily because the gun manufacturing industry has a lot of power, money and influence. Any form of regulation threatens their profits, and unlike the tobacco industry they have a whole amendment to wave in people's faces. There's also some racism and urban apprehension involved; these incidents are considered the lesser evil compared to the specter of the rapist/burglar whose purpose of being is to rape the white man's women and take his property.

[Loony Le Fist]

I think it's both, to be honest. In this case I'm tempted to say it skews towards the availability of guns, due to the wealth of the perpetrator.


Well again. In the US mental health problems are seen as a personal failing. People with mental health problems are marginalized instead of helped with proper counseling (individual and group) to assist with coping skills. More often than not, doctors just hand you pills to control symptoms. While drugs are useful for treatment, mental health requires a comprehensive approach. Even if you are on the right pharmaceuticals, you still need a support system. Being some sheltered wealthy kid doesn't really help.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

One of the victims' father spoke out on CNN. (http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/05/26/newday-lah-intv-richard-martinez-victim-father.cnn-ap.html)

That is some raw fucking emotion right there. And you know what? I'm glad that he's screaming, that he's this angry. He should be. He has every goddamn right to be. If I could, I would deliver Wayne la Pierre, bound and gagged, to his house so that this man could beat the living daylights out of him.

Goddammit, America! Get some motherfucking courage! You think the gutless pissants in our government give two shits about you! FUCK NO!

[Loony Le Fist]

One of the victims' father spoke out on CNN.

...


Real talk right there.



If I could, I would deliver Wayne la Pierre, bound and gagged, to his house so that this man could beat the living daylights out of him.


I'm with you comrade.

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://web.orange.co.uk/images/ice/news/bskyb_image_311751_v1_comp_1_400x240.jpg

^ killed in the shooting

[Loony Le Fist]

Just found out that in the US, the NRA lobbied Congress, and ended up reducing CDC research into gun violence to $0. I truly hate the NRA.

[Sasha]

Another decent background article, this one looks more at class and mental health issues than the MRA stuf: http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/05/24/the-disturbing-internet-footprint-of-santa-barbara-shooter-elliot-rodger/

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Hate how these fuckers are reported on in the media; like they deserve any mention of their name, their 'manifesto', their shitty, pathetic world-view. The reports should be of the tragic loss of life and the injuries inflicted by a psychopath who's not worth our time - the victims and the bigger questions about how pervasive mysogyny is in all areas of society, not just weird online forums, is where the focus should be, not him.
But then again, the mainstream media love a good psycho to 'profile' and gawp at because it sells, apparently.

[Naroc]

I recommend you to read his manifesto or a summary of it. It's interesting to see how distorted his worldview was from his perspective.

Manifesto (http://www.ibtimes.com/read-elliot-rodgers-140-page-memoir-manifesto-he-wrote-prior-his-shooting-university-1589868)

Summary (http://www.women24.com/Trending/Summary-of-Elliot-Rodgers-manifesto-20140527)

[Sasha]

Hate how these fuckers are reported one in the media; like they deserve any mention of their name, their 'manifesto', their shitty, pathetic world-view. The reports should be of the tragic loss of life and the injuries inflicted by a psychopath who's not worth our time - the victims and the bigger questions about how pervasive mysogyny is in all areas of society, not just weird online forums, is where the focus should be.
But then again, the mainstream media love a good psycho to 'profile' and gawp at because it sells, apparently.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bomwo5YCUAApHfe.jpg
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-isla-vista-shootings-community-growing-wary-of-news-media-20140526-story.html

[Loony Le Fist]

Hate how these fuckers are reported on in the media...

How much you wanna bet that if this murderer was a minority, they wouldn't care much about his manifesto.

[synthesis]

How much you wanna bet that if this murderer was a minority, they wouldn't care much about his manifesto.

Chris Dorner? Any kind of ideology helps sell a story like this.

[Sasha]

Chris Dorner? Any kind of ideology helps sell a story like this.


except when the extreme right kills, from mcVeigh to Scott Roeder, when the "pro-life" or "millitia" types kill it are always lone nutcases with no ideology in sight..

[Os Cangaceiros]

Holy shit, did you read those quotes from his manifesto in that summary? That dude was a hardcore elitist in the worst possible way. He wasn't just women-repellent, he was people-repellent. Not even the extravagantly wealthy would admit to thinking the thoughts that he put down in that document...

[synthesis]

'No Way to Prevent This', Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens (http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/) - The Onion


except when the extreme right kills, from mcVeigh to Scott Roeder, when the "pro-life" or "millitia" types kill it are always lone nutcases with no ideology in sight..

Sorry, can you rephrase this?

[ProletariatPower]

I watched the video. He was clearly not only a misogynist he was quite simply a psychopath and a narcissist. The people saying it was because of how "women treated him" or that it's because he had Aspergers Syndrome are morons too, he clearly had no empathy for other human beings and considered himself entitled and superior to others, rather than attempting to deal with his problems he placed blame on other people, particularly women. I have met many people with Aspergers, they experience many of the same problems but do not blame others for them, as I said he clearly was a psychopath, I'm not sure he was a 'political' MRA but he certainly was misogynistic and blamed women for his problems.

[Rafiq]

I think it's absolutely clear that this person was deeply troubled, on a personal level. While I doubt that he was a 'sociopath' or had anti social personality disorder, I think that the point is that the spectrum of expectations and standards was completely shaped by his poisonous background, as a privileged wealthy kid. The absence of real struggle, the absence of real hardships creates a ridiculous standard for hardship and struggle, of course in the form of self pity. Let this be a testament to how isolated the wealthy are from the masses, as though they were in a different world.

[Rafiq]

So often we are told how "lazy" and "parasitic" America's poor are, but what you don't find is children living in poverty, or working class children who have become so bored with their so-called comfort that they lose touch with reality, are engulfed with narcissism and commit acts of madness. Not to excessively politicize every sensationalized event, but this is purely a class based tragedy.

[Loony Le Fist]

Chris Dorner? Any kind of ideology helps sell a story like this.

Good point. I stand corrected. :grin:

[synthesis]

I doubt that he was a 'sociopath' or had anti social personality disorder

Why?

[Rafiq]

Why?

Just by reading his manifesto he had a false sense of righteousness. He was living in a fantasy dimension.

[synthesis]

Just by reading his manifesto he had a false sense of righteousness. He was living in a fantasy dimension.

I see what you mean, although the utter lack of any demonstrable empathy or ability to connect with other people whatsoever does indicate, to me, issues in the direction of ASPD more so than simply the Asperger's/spectrum disorder with which he was diagnosed.

[Rafiq]

I see what you mean, although the utter lack of any demonstrable empathy or ability to connect with other people whatsoever does indicate, to me, issues in the direction of ASPD more so than simply the Asperger's/spectrum disorder with which he was diagnosed.

Actually it is perfectly possible that he is able to empathize with others, just in an enclosed and specified fashion. To a degree we are all capable of gross acts of murder and cruelty, the trick is who we decide to 'humanize' and who we do not. For example, it is easy for some to feel empathy towards animals, and attribute to them anthropomorphic characteristics, and it is just as easy for some to de-humanize others as criminals, and so on. In this case, isolation, gross comfort and self entitlement led to a form of narcissism which effectively made the dehumanization of others easy, not for the sake of gaining his own ends directly, but for the fulfilment of a false sense of righteousness and 'justice' which was formed via self pity. The difference with aspd is that such sentiment would not factor in.

[synthesis]

Actually it is perfectly possible that he is able to empathize with others, just in an enclosed and specified fashion.

It's possible but all evidence indicates that he didn't. If you go through his entire "manifesto," all his Youtube videos and the many cached forum posts linked to in the Forbes article Sasha posted, then I feel that I can safely extrapolate from the several hours I spent perusing those materials that you won't find a single instance of Rodger demonstrating any kind of empathy for others. If you can find one example - just one - of him demonstrating anything resembling empathy, I will happily concede this point. Also, psychopaths and people with ASPD are perfectly capable of expressing their interests as righteous for their own purposes, of manipulating others to gain sympathy from them, and of feeling indignant due to perceived wrongs against them. It seems like you think that psychopaths are quasi-Vulcans, incapable of experiencing any emotion whatsoever, when in fact they do experience emotion but, obviously, in strictly anti-social frameworks.

[Luís Henrique]

There seems to be a dychotomy between mental illness and social causes in this thread.

How about mental illness being a social issue?

Luís Henrique

[Decolonize The Left]

There seems to be a dychotomy between mental illness and social causes in this thread.

How about mental illness being a social issue?

Luís Henrique

I'd like to put forth a philosophical point. I'd like to venture that what we are witnessing here was an attempt at meaning-creation within an individual's life. This individual felt that their life was essentially meaningless as they derived their life-meaning from sex and the conquest thereof within our hypersexualized society. This individual felt that their life held no value as they could not actualize themselves through sex. The lack of sex was an expression of the lack of meaning within the individual.
The act of murdering random people and then taking one's own life is, in this light, a final act of meaning creation. It is double-back upon itself, this meaning creation, as it is created purely out of resentment which is, in itself, the key expression of this lack of meaning.
This individual (and the other MRA guys) don't hate women as they don't even really understand what women are. They hate themselves and the lack of meaning in their lives and they resent this very fact without being able to understand it. Their self-hatred emerges on women as women are the easiest and safest target for them as they are the furthest from their reality. They are, in essence, weak. And they hate their very own weakness so they attempt to appear strong by lashing out.

Mentally ill? No, I don't think so, at least not any more than most people. Their actions seem symptomatic to me of the larger devaluation of human society as a whole (expressed in hypersexualization and hyper-meaning creation) and the subsequent isolation and self-obsession which comes with such a society.

At least, that's how I was seeing things today.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

I'd like to put forth a philosophical point. I'd like to venture that what we are witnessing here was an attempt at meaning-creation within an individual's life. This individual felt that their life was essentially meaningless as they derived their life-meaning from sex and the conquest thereof within our hypersexualized society. This individual felt that their life held no value as they could not actualize themselves through sex. The lack of sex was an expression of the lack of meaning within the individual.
The act of murdering random people and then taking one's own life is, in this light, a final act of meaning creation. It is double-back upon itself, this meaning creation, as it is created purely out of resentment which is, in itself, the key expression of this lack of meaning.
This individual (and the other MRA guys) don't hate women as they don't even really understand what women are. They hate themselves and the lack of meaning in their lives and they resent this very fact without being able to understand it. Their self-hatred emerges on women as women are the easiest and safest target for them as they are the furthest from their reality. They are, in essence, weak. And they hate their very own weakness so they attempt to appear strong by lashing out.

Mentally ill? No, I don't think so, at least not any more than most people. Their actions seem symptomatic to me of the larger devaluation of human society as a whole (expressed in hypersexualization and hyper-meaning creation) and the subsequent isolation and self-obsession which comes with such a society.

At least, that's how I was seeing things today.

This. So much this.

Very much an existential issue.

[Rafiq]

It's possible but all evidence indicates that he didn't. If you go through his entire "manifesto," all his Youtube videos and the many cached forum posts linked to in the Forbes article Sasha posted, then I feel that I can safely extrapolate from the several hours I spent perusing those materials that you won't find a single instance of Rodger demonstrating any kind of empathy for others. If you can find one example - just one - of him demonstrating anything resembling empathy, I will happily concede this point. Also, psychopaths and people with ASPD are perfectly capable of expressing their interests as righteous for their own purposes, of manipulating others to gain sympathy from them, and of feeling indignant due to perceived wrongs against them. It seems like you think that psychopaths are quasi-Vulcans, incapable of experiencing any emotion whatsoever, when in fact they do experience emotion but, obviously, in strictly anti-social frameworks.

While I never associated stoic personality traits with ASPD, I don't know too much about it. All I say is that dismissing him as some kind of 'sociopath' or heartless monster really disallows us to understand the situation.

[Lily Briscoe]

I'd like to put forth a philosophical point. I'd like to venture that what we are witnessing here was an attempt at meaning-creation within an individual's life. This individual felt that their life was essentially meaningless as they derived their life-meaning from sex and the conquest thereof within our hypersexualized society. This individual felt that their life held no value as they could not actualize themselves through sex. The lack of sex was an expression of the lack of meaning within the individual.
The act of murdering random people and then taking one's own life is, in this light, a final act of meaning creation. It is double-back upon itself, this meaning creation, as it is created purely out of resentment which is, in itself, the key expression of this lack of meaning.

[...]

Mentally ill? No, I don't think so, at least not any more than most people. Their actions seem symptomatic to me of the larger devaluation of human society as a whole (expressed in hypersexualization and hyper-meaning creation) and the subsequent isolation and self-obsession which comes with such a society.

I spent about ten minutes trying to find a less blunt way to convey the sentiment that this is basically a load of pretentious, moralistic nonsense... but I failed, so there it is.

In a lot of sexist societies, acquiring and dominating women (which obviously includes sex) is tied up with male status (and is therefore, for many men, a significant factor in their sense of self-worth). It seems ridiculous to me to attribute this to some perceived 'hypersexualization' of society, which is something I would expect to hear from a Catholic (maybe try asking girls/women who have their reputation/lives destroyed for flouting some sexual convention about their thoughts on how 'hypersexualized' everything is these days...). If anything, I think American society is pretty sexually repressed.

I also think that this dude was absolutely fucked in the head on a really fundamental level, and it is seriously insane to me that anyone is trying to deny this. I mean, If this incident helps generate meaningful discussion (and I am quite certain that it won't) on the very real relationship between the prevalence of guns, fucked up gun culture, insanely lax gun laws, and violence against women in the US, then I absolutely welcome that and think it's long overdue (incidentally, I was berated by people on this forum and essentially accused of throwing around false accusations of rape and domestic abuse for trying to raise this issue in a discussion earlier in the year (http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-marxist-stance-t185421/index3.html)). However, I don't think it negates the fact that this wasn't just some typical entitled individual with normal mental health; this kid was seriously psychologically disturbed and conspicuously so.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

http://infinitelyfullofhope.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/elliot-rodger-a-spree-killer-and-a-gentleman/

found this article to be good + interesting

[rylasasin]

The only thing more sad and pathetic than the MRAs/MGTOWs treating him like the 2nd coming of jesus, are the MGTOWS/MRAs trying their damn hardest to distance themselves from him by claiming he wasn't one.

They make the stupidest claims too when you confront them. "We're not anti-women. What do you mean our forums are full of anti-women slurs! THere's no anti-womanism in our forums! Really!"

I even had one fucking MGTOW piece of shit claim it was possible that several of them are socialists/communists, and that Lenin was the founder of the MRM. :laugh: :glare:

[Decolonize The Left]

I spent about ten minutes trying to find a less blunt way to convey the sentiment that this is basically a load of pretentious, moralistic nonsense... but I failed, so there it is.

Well, given that it is apparent that you misunderstood what I was saying, that's a very polite way of you saying "I disagree." Thanks for opening this discussion with such tact.


In a lot of sexist societies, acquiring and dominating women (which obviously includes sex) is tied up with male status (and is therefore, for many men, a significant factor in their sense of self-worth). It seems ridiculous to me to attribute this to some perceived 'hypersexualization' of society, which is something I would expect to hear from a Catholic (maybe try asking girls/women who have their reputation/lives destroyed for flouting some sexual convention about their thoughts on how 'hypersexualized' everything is these days...). If anything, I think American society is pretty sexually repressed.

Ok, but that isn't what I meant by hypersexualization. Hypersexualization is a devaualtion of sex by making it more (much more - everything) than it is. For a simple example, Barbie is hypersexualization. Barbie is the male gaze taken to the extreme and fed to adolescent children. Bieber/Cyrus are hypersexualized child idols. They are not human beings in this sense, they are abstractions and glorifications of ideals and dreams brought forth in a manner which makes actual sex look boring like painting a wall. Sex - perhaps one of the most intimate human acts - is reduced to thirty seconds video clips. And this isn't even to start on porn.

Hopefully you can see that by hypersexualization I don't mean that 'them kids are getting all crazy with the twerking of the backsides' and shit. Sexual repression can be expressed in many ways - just look at the subject of the OP.


I also think that this dude was absolutely fucked in the head on a really fundamental level, and it is seriously insane to me that anyone is trying to deny this.

Ok, but you didn't grasp the entirety of what I said.

Mentally ill? No, I don't think so, at least not any more than most people.
I, unlike you who appear to be willing to write off this incident as an insane guy with a gun, am saying that this person's perspective is probably much, much, more common than we are willing to believe.


I mean, If this incident helps generate meaningful discussion (and I am quite certain that it won't) on the very real relationship between the prevalence of guns, fucked up gun culture, insanely lax gun laws, and violence against women in the US, then I absolutely welcome that and think it's long overdue (incidentally, I was berated by people on this forum and essentially accused of throwing around false accusations of rape and domestic abuse for trying to raise this issue in a discussion earlier in the year (http://www.revleft.com/vb/would-marxist-stance-t185421/index3.html)). However, I don't think it negates the fact that this wasn't just some typical entitled individual with normal mental health; this kid was seriously psychologically disturbed and conspicuously so.

Firstly, I was not a part of the previous discusion.
Secondly, I am saying that most of us are 'seriously psychologically disturbed' in some manner or another.
Thirdly, many people on this forum see beyond guns=death and look at the context within which guns are used. Along with sexism and patriarchy there is a context of racism and economic oppression which deserve addressing when we confront the debate over guns and gun ownership.

In the end, we come full circle. Guns are a weapon and weapons provide power against the weaponless. This is really a discussion about power which is why I said what I said in my earlier post (to which you took such lovely offence):

This individual felt that their life was essentially meaningless as they derived their life-meaning from sex and the conquest thereof within our hypersexualized society.
Meaning = power. For this guy power = sex. He didn't get any, he felt powerless, he got a gun and felt powerful and killed people. It was his only real attempt at meaning creation and since it was filled with resentment and resignation it was sad and weak.

[Rosa Partizan]

I don't see any contradiction between sexual oppression and hypersexualization. This "contradiction" we see in 99% of all porn movies, where female lust and desire is marginalized in favor of male satisfaction. We see it in society's double standards, in prostitution, just everywhere. That guy probably grew up with the image of getting many ladies would boost his value as a person. Moreover, he got mocked and humiliated by his peers. There is no monocausality in all this, but it's "finally" some tragedy that hints at male entitlement towards women. Being bullied, being a loner, having easy access to guns, we've had all that before. It's about damn time for some feminist approach to all of that.

[synthesis]

Ok, but you didn't grasp the entirety of what I said.

I, unlike you who appear to be willing to write off this incident as an insane guy with a gun, am saying that this person's perspective is probably much, much, more common than we are willing to believe.

So in your framework why is it that not every sexually frustrated and angry young man whose life lacks meaning goes out and does something like this?


There seems to be a dychotomy between mental illness and social causes in this thread.

To me the dichotomy is between mental illness and ideology; that is, there are those who think the main factor was the mental illness and the ideology was incidental, and those who think that the main factor was the MRA and the mental illness was either trivial or non-existent.


All I say is that dismissing him as some kind of 'sociopath' or heartless monster really disallows us to understand the situation.

I agree with this, but I also think it's sad that discussing his possible psychopathy or ASPD even translates to people "dismissing him as some kind of heartless monster." They are accurate diagnostic terms and can help us understand what happened better but inasmuch as they try to the root of the problem they suffer from the same flaw that all analysis of personality disorders do, that they are highly judgmental and observational rather than neurological.

[Decolonize The Left]

So in your framework why is it that not every sexually frustrated and angry young man whose life lacks meaning goes out and does something like this?

Meaning is created in many different ways. It can come from other people, from one's ideas, one's actions, etc... As an alternative example, a business executive may be sexually frustrated and angry and feel as though his life lacks meaning - he may attempt to feel meaningful through aggressive business tactics and maximization of profit.

Every sexually frustrated and angry young man whose life lacks meaning handles it differently. The point wasn't that killing people is the only solution to nihilism, the point was that the social devolution into nihilism positions individuals to seek meaning creation (read: power) in drastic ways as a result of resentment.

[synthesis]

Meaning is created in many different ways. It can come from other people, from one's ideas, one's actions, etc... As an alternative example, a business executive may be sexually frustrated and angry and feel as though his life lacks meaning - he may attempt to feel meaningful through aggressive business tactics and maximization of profit.

Every sexually frustrated and angry young man whose life lacks meaning handles it differently. The point wasn't that killing people is the only solution to nihilism, the point was that the social devolution into nihilism positions individuals to seek meaning creation (read: power) in drastic ways as a result of resentment.

But this seems like a completely teleological explanation, which would make it functionally useless. If all acts such as this are "attempts at meaning creation" then in practice there is no difference between them, and there are no explanations as to why he and a few others have done this but everybody else hasn't, at least none that are not entirely mystical and therefore, again, not useful to us. Also this "social devolution into nihilism" bit combined with the condemnation of "hypersexualization" makes your whole argument come across as conservative in a very underhanded way.

[Luís Henrique]

I'd like to put forth a philosophical point. I'd like to venture that what we are witnessing here was an attempt at meaning-creation within an individual's life. This individual felt that their life was essentially meaningless as they derived their life-meaning from sex and the conquest thereof within our hypersexualized society. This individual felt that their life held no value as they could not actualize themselves through sex. The lack of sex was an expression of the lack of meaning within the individual.
The act of murdering random people and then taking one's own life is, in this light, a final act of meaning creation. It is double-back upon itself, this meaning creation, as it is created purely out of resentment which is, in itself, the key expression of this lack of meaning.
This individual (and the other MRA guys) don't hate women as they don't even really understand what women are. They hate themselves and the lack of meaning in their lives and they resent this very fact without being able to understand it. Their self-hatred emerges on women as women are the easiest and safest target for them as they are the furthest from their reality. They are, in essence, weak. And they hate their very own weakness so they attempt to appear strong by lashing out.

Mentally ill? No, I don't think so, at least not any more than most people. Their actions seem symptomatic to me of the larger devaluation of human society as a whole (expressed in hypersexualization and hyper-meaning creation) and the subsequent isolation and self-obsession which comes with such a society.

At least, that's how I was seeing things today.

Don't you think that hating oneself would easily conduct to madness?

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

It seems ridiculous to me to attribute this to some perceived 'hypersexualization' of society, which is something I would expect to hear from a Catholic (maybe try asking girls/women who have their reputation/lives destroyed for flouting some sexual convention about their thoughts on how 'hypersexualized' everything is these days...). If anything, I think American society is pretty sexually repressed.

Don't you think that a given society can be, at the same time, "hyperxesualised" and sexually repressed?

Because this is the way that both American and Brazilian society look like to me.

Maybe Marcuse is right about "repressive desublimation"?


this kid was seriously psychologically disturbed and conspicuously so.

Seems quite obvious to me, too. What drives this discussion seems to be a reasoning like "if he was mad, then it wasn't a problem of sexism or misogyny; if it was a problem of sexism and misogyny, then he wasn't mad".

I fail to grasp the logic of that assumption; to me it is perfectly possible to be misogynistic and psychotic, and it is quite obvious that misogyny can even trigger mental disorders, and/or mental disorders can trigger open manifestations of misogyny.

A further problem seems to be one of personal responsibility. If he was psychotic, then he wasn't responsible for his acts, and we wouldn't like to see a brutal mass murderer being considered irresponsible. The question is moot, of course, since he offed himself, so there is no point in pursuing "justice" against him (which in fact only makes things worse, since we cannot even hope sentencing or lynching him), but it does seem to emerge quite often, many times in the form of "the mentally ill are innocent, harmless people, and accuse a criminal of being mentally ill is an insult to those peaceful harmless guys". Which is obviously false; many mentally ill people are indeed harmless, but some are dangerous, even extremely dangerous, and yes, their mental illness can be, and often is, the root of their dangerousness.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

To me the dichotomy is between mental illness and ideology; that is, there are those who think the main factor was the mental illness and the ideology was incidental, and those who think that the main factor was the MRA and the mental illness was either trivial or non-existent.

This is probably a more accurate way of putting it. Anyway, I think both positions fail in realising how such kind of "ideology" attracts mentally deranged people, and then reinforces and makes such derangements stronger and more dangerous, on one hand, and how mental illness amplificates and distorts ideology into more dangerous and disturbed views. Neither are suitable as deus ex machina; both are reflections of how our society is organised, especially of its deep inequalities.

Luís Henrique

[Decolonize The Left]

Don't you think that hating oneself would easily conduct to madness?

Luís Henrique

Depends on what you mean by madness, I guess. I think that a large portion of modern society hates themselves to some degree as we don't have a healthy social perspective on personhood and community.

[Decolonize The Left]

But this seems like a completely teleological explanation, which would make it functionally useless. If all acts such as this are "attempts at meaning creation" then in practice there is no difference between them,

I fail to see how it is teleological. Why is there no difference between them? Do you see no difference between murdering 50 people and writing a sonata?


and there are no explanations as to why he and a few others have done this but everybody else hasn't, at least none that are not entirely mystical and therefore, again, not useful to us.

But many others have done this. And many, many, more physically injure, kill, abuse, etc... their partners or strangers or whoever for many of the same reasons (or so it seems to me). Your interpretation of what I say over two fairly long posts is rather narrow...


Also this "social devolution into nihilism" bit combined with the condemnation of "hypersexualization" makes your whole argument come across as conservative in a very underhanded way.

That's nice of you to say.

[synthesis]

I fail to grasp the logic of that assumption; to me it is perfectly possible to be misogynistic and psychotic, and it is quite obvious that misogyny can even trigger mental disorders, and/or mental disorders can trigger open manifestations of misogyny.

A further problem seems to be one of personal responsibility. If he was psychotic, then he wasn't responsible for his acts, and we wouldn't like to see a brutal mass murderer being considered irresponsible. The question is moot, of course, since he offed himself, so there is no point in pursuing "justice" against him (which in fact only makes things worse, since we cannot even hope sentencing or lynching him), but it does seem to emerge quite often, many times in the form of "the mentally ill are innocent, harmless people, and accuse a criminal of being mentally ill is an insult to those peaceful harmless guys". Which is obviously false; many mentally ill people are indeed harmless, but some are dangerous, even extremely dangerous, and yes, their mental illness can be, and often is, the root of their dangerousness.Just a point of clarification, psychotic and psychopathic aren't the same thing. A lot of people get them confused. Psychopaths are almost always considered to be responsible for their actions, whereas psychotics are the ones that are most often given leeway for insanity pleas. I don't think anyone would have considered Rodger to be psychotic.


Psychotic behavior is when someone attacks the mayor because Satan appeared on a box of Crunch Berries and told them to do it. Sociopathic behavior is when someone lies, doesn't feel bad about it and can't understand why anyone else would.

[Jimmie Higgins]

So often we are told how "lazy" and "parasitic" America's poor are, but what you don't find is children living in poverty, or working class children who have become so bored with their so-called comfort that they lose touch with reality, are engulfed with narcissism and commit acts of madness. Not to excessively politicize every sensationalized event, but this is purely a class based tragedy.yah you do! Capitalism alienates and damages everyone in society in various ways even if our circumstances or whatever subjective things cause us to experience and interpret things in different ways. Plenty of asshole yuppies are fine and content with shit as it is and are perfectly entertained with their realitivly bigger crumbs. Plenty of poor and socially oppressed people can be narcissistic and live in fantasy worlds... It's much more of a distraction than thinking about your poverty and oppression when you don't believe anything can be done about it.



why is it that not every sexually frustrated and angry young man whose life lacks meaning goes out and does something like this?



But if i'm understanding synthesis's argument, i'm not convinced by that either. I think men rights ideology is a big part of this, it doesn't need to be overthought either imo. Increasing acceptance of a set of ideas and a worldview does have real world ramifications. If a workers movement in the us grew, then we might see more examples of people shooting ceos or kidnapping their bosses or bombing anti-union newspaper offices. It doesn't mean thought would be effective things to do or that it would reflect the sentiment or tactics of the general movement at that time, it could be acts by more isolated and personally frustrated individuals with other issues going on in their lives that have made them desperate or whatnot. But the increase of an understanding that the bosses are the main sentinels of your alienation on a number of levels would also increase the chance of some random acts of violence in this way... At least it happened in the past.

If sexist ideas, specifically an ideology around antifeminism that places increased rights for women as the source of your alienation (a force of oppression no less), become more common, more socially tolerated, then of course at least some people are going to act on these ideas (and against what they see as an unjust system). Most are probably just going to act through propagandizing (saying sexist jokes, maybe starting a blog or trolling the internet), some are going to be more serious and actually try and more concretely promote these ideas and create groups, begin to protest women's studies groups on campus. But some are going to be more serious on an individual level; more of these will probably just feel entitled to grab and harass women which is bad enough, but a fringe or isolated people might actively terrorize women.

Everyone feels alienated to some degree... A few for various reasons snap because of it. But how people understand that feeling, where they place the source of that alienation, is influenced by what are acceptable or more common ideas in society.

[synthesis]

I am in agreement with the concept that ideology can shape the form that these attacks take, but I'm pretty firm on the concept that there is no direct causal relationship whatsoever. What in Adam Lanza's ideological makeup drove him to commit what I would argue was the most horrific mass shooting in at least the last decade? Also, if we are placing MRA and misogyny as the causal factor in this situation, why is it that only two of the six victims were female?

[Luís Henrique]

Also, if we are placing MRA and misogyny as the causal factor in this situation, why is it that only two of the six victims were female?

This seems to be merely a combination of sheer blind luck (perp wasn't allowed entrance to the sorority premises, where he had planned to kill many more people) with lousy aim.

And on the other hand, he explicitly commented, more than once, that he hated women for not going to bed with him, and hated other men for going to bed with the women he felt entitled to... so he could easily have had a shooting spree aimed mainly at men, still out of his contorted misogynistic world view.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Just a point of clarification, psychotic and psychopathic aren't the same thing. A lot of people get them confused. Psychopaths are almost always considered to be responsible for their actions, whereas psychotics are the ones that are most often given leeway for insanity pleas. I don't think anyone would have considered Rodger to be psychotic.

Yeah, I know the distinction. But I do think that Rodger was quite clearly psychotic; it is just that the "box of Crunch Berries" where Satan appeared to him was a misogynistic webforum where his idea that he was entitled to all women in the world was reinforced and legitimated.

One of the minor collateral consequences of this horror is probably that Asperger will maybe lose some of its charm, and consequently less people will identify as "aspies" in the internet.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

What in Adam Lanza's ideological makeup drove him to commit what I would argue was the most horrific mass shooting in at least the last decade?

If we think of ideology as something much less structured than a coherent set of ideas with an "ism" label attached to it... his ideological makeup quite certainly included the idea that we live in a jungle, where other people's contribution to our welfare is naturalised. The kind of idea that we are still hunter-gatherers who just happen to hunt and gather in supermarkets instead of wilderness.

Which is a very common mindset, particularly among those influenced by "libertarianism".

Luís Henrique

[synthesis]

And on the other hand, he explicitly commented, more than once, that he hated women for not going to bed with him, and hated other men for going to bed with the women he felt entitled to... so he could easily have had a shooting spree aimed mainly at men, still out of his contorted misogynistic world view.

So if Rodger initiated a killing spree targeted at... well, everyone, how could anyone possibly argue that MRA factors into the causality or played any significant role in how the attack was actually carried out, relative to other shootings prompted by different ideologies?

It's like how tons of people were cheering on Chris Dorner because of his manifesto, and then you look at the actual people that he killed and you realize it didn't really have anything to do with what he said there, it was just a revenge killing that he and the internet spun into an ideological quest for justice.


If we think of ideology as something much less structured than a coherent set of ideas with an "ism" label attached to it... his ideological makeup quite certainly included the idea that we live in a jungle, where other people's contribution to our welfare is naturalised. The kind of idea that we are still hunter-gatherers who just happen to hunt and gather in supermarkets instead of wilderness.

Which is a very common mindset, particularly among those influenced by "libertarianism".

But that broad of a definition pushes the analysis of the role of ideology into near-irrelevance. What I'm talking about is the assertion that Rodger's discovery of MRA websites and the like acted as a catalyst for the shooting, and the possibility that he wouldn't have engaged in a spree-suicide if he hadn't discovered them; if your analysis of Lanza is to be included in the same category, you're basically saying that the shooter's worldview plays a role in the attack. Well, duh. I don't think anyone would dispute that. This is only a useful addition to the discussion if someone's argument is so reductive as to be saying nothing more than "the chemical imbalances in his brain made him do it." I'm not aware of anyone putting forward an argument that I would agree is that simplistic.

[synthesis]

I fail to see how it is teleological. Why is there no difference between them? Do you see no difference between murdering 50 people and writing a sonata?

To clarify, when I said "acts such as this," I was referring to spree killings. Here it is rephrased:


But this seems like a completely teleological explanation, which would make it functionally useless. If all mass murders committed by individuals are "attempts at meaning creation" then in practice there is no difference between them, and there are no explanations as to why he and a few others have done this but everybody else hasn't, at least none that are not entirely mystical and therefore, again, not useful to us.


But many others have done this. And many, many, more physically injure, kill, abuse, etc... their partners or strangers or whoever for many of the same reasons (or so it seems to me). Your interpretation of what I say over two fairly long posts is rather narrow...

That's nice of you to say.

Yes but your framework doesn't help us understand or differentiate any of these behaviors. If anything "bad" (or "good," for that matter) is just "different degrees of meaning creation" then we might as well give up on discussing the ideological and sociopsychological causalities of... well, anything. I'm sorry if that post sounded harsh but I really think this analysis you've presented is completely metaphysical and not at all useful for understanding how and why things like this happen.

[human strike]

I'd like to put forth a philosophical point. I'd like to venture that what we are witnessing here was an attempt at meaning-creation within an individual's life. This individual felt that their life was essentially meaningless as they derived their life-meaning from sex and the conquest thereof within our hypersexualized society. This individual felt that their life held no value as they could not actualize themselves through sex. The lack of sex was an expression of the lack of meaning within the individual.
The act of murdering random people and then taking one's own life is, in this light, a final act of meaning creation. It is double-back upon itself, this meaning creation, as it is created purely out of resentment which is, in itself, the key expression of this lack of meaning.
This individual (and the other MRA guys) don't hate women as they don't even really understand what women are. They hate themselves and the lack of meaning in their lives and they resent this very fact without being able to understand it. Their self-hatred emerges on women as women are the easiest and safest target for them as they are the furthest from their reality. They are, in essence, weak. And they hate their very own weakness so they attempt to appear strong by lashing out.

Mentally ill? No, I don't think so, at least not any more than most people. Their actions seem symptomatic to me of the larger devaluation of human society as a whole (expressed in hypersexualization and hyper-meaning creation) and the subsequent isolation and self-obsession which comes with such a society.

At least, that's how I was seeing things today.

The two aren't disconnected, but the meaning being created isn't so much to do with sex as it is masculinity. It's not about the creation of a sexual identity, it's about the creation of a male identity. What better way of affirming masculinity than acts of spectacular violence?

I think you are right when you say they hate themselves, but I think it's mistaken to say they don't also hate women. They hate themselves for failing to live up to their idea of what it means to be a man, they hate other men for (in their eyes) achieving that and impeding them, they hate women for not being subordinate and submissive enough (to them), and they hate society for confusing the fuck out of them on what it means to be a man today.

Gendered relations have changed very rapidly in a relatively short space of time. I don't think it's a coincidence that mass murders by young men, especially in schools, is now such a marked phenomenon. And this isn't just something that happens in the US, though undoubtedly the easier access to guns means the US is where these acts of patriarchal terrorism are most bloody. In China, for example, random knife attacks by young men in schools are common, and there are many examples from around the world of similar acts, but the number of victims is typically smaller.

Male supremacy teaches us all from an early age that men get what they want and they get it through violence (and that - along with what is between our legs - is in fact what makes us men). Fortunately this isn't always true because women (and others) don't put up with that shit, at least not without a fight. Boys believe that their worth is derived from achieving a male identity and affirming that masculinity. And it is true that in a patriarchal society one does derive power and privilege from a masculine identity and at the expense of those who are feminine and/or less masculine. For whatever reason, some men place more emphasis on their male identity than others and some men struggle more with affirming that identity. Outbursts of masculine violence are common and inevitable; usually they're not mass murders but even those aren't rare now as traditionally masculine gender roles and male privilege are increasingly challenged (as they should be).

I don't think we can underestimate the role bullying plays in this either, but again it has everything to do with masculinity.

“The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If an individual is not successful in emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem.” - bell hooks

Boys bully to affirm their masculinity; to make men of themselves. This leads the bullied to feel emasculated. This bullying is typically a group activity; far better to prove your manliness with an audience than without. I think this goes a long way to explain why these mass murders so often take place at schools and universities; schools and playgrounds are theatres of patriarchal violence. Those who have been emasculated through violence know better than anyone how to re-affirm that masculinity. It's very telling that Elliot Rodger didn't simply target random women, but first targeted three specific men that he knew. After all, patriarchy isn't men vs. women, but man vs. man where women are an object in the game.

[Lily Briscoe]

Don't you think that a given society can be, at the same time, "hyperxesualised" and sexually repressed?

No, I really think that the talk about "hypersexualization" is just dressed up sexual moralism and doesn't describe a real phenomenon at all. Old men/nuns have been sounding the alarm about the destructive, creeping influence of sex in society (and the supposed resulting "devaluation" of both sex and society) - and attributing any sort of horrific event or social crisis to it - for a very long time. The fact that, when pressed to explain this "hypersexualization", people are reduced to saying things like "Barbie is hypersexualization Barbie is the male gaze taken to the extreme and fed to adolescent children", and 'Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus are hypersexualization because they "make sex look boring like painting a wall"' really just underscores the absurdity of the whole idea. Yes, sex is more conspicuous in society today than it was a hundred years ago (and thankfully so, IMO). So what?


Seems quite obvious to me, too. What drives this discussion seems to be a reasoning like "if he was mad, then it wasn't a problem of sexism or misogyny; if it was a problem of sexism and misogyny, then he wasn't mad".

I fail to grasp the logic of that assumption; to me it is perfectly possible to be misogynistic [B]and psychotic, and it is quite obvious that misogyny can even trigger mental disorders, and/or mental disorders can trigger open manifestations of misogyny.

I agree with this completely. Just to be clear, I was not arguing that this incident is necessarily reducible to "a nut with a gun who was just looking for an excuse to kill people" (which another poster implied I was saying). That may well have been the case with the Sandy Hook incident, but there doesn't seem to be evidence of the same sort of obsessive preoccupation with violence for it's own sake that would support that conclusion in this case. I think it's perfectly possible that an entitled, narcissistic kid with massive psychological problems was frustrated by the fact that he hadn't received the attention from women he felt he was owed, so he went on a shooting spree in order to 'punish' people and 'prove himself'. But ultimately, it is really impossible to know to what extent he was actually motivated by his anger toward women versus by the fact that he was psychologically disturbed or what exactly the interaction between these two factors was, to what extent Men's Rights ideology contributed to all this, etc. etc. That is the problem with trying to construct some pressing political narrative around an individual incident like this. And to a certain extent, it just comes across as people jumping on the sensationalism bandwagon, IMO.

[Sasha]

Sorry, can you rephrase this?

that when its rightwing terrorism the state often turns a blind eye or at least pretends its not uncomfortably close to the accepted political right. Rightwing terrorists are always portrait as deranged lone wolves and their ideology and establishment connections are always buried as quick as possible.
if left-wing terrorism was half as close to parliamentary left as right-wing terrorism is to parliamentary right being a member of anything left of center would be grounds for arrest already in most countries.
could you imagine anything like the uproar the established right had over the 2012 SPLC report about the militia & abortion terrorism if it was about the left?

[synthesis]

that when its rightwing terrorism the state often turns a blind eye or at least pretends its not uncomfortably close to the accepted political right. Rightwing terrorists are always portrait as deranged lone wolves and their ideology and establishment connections are always buried as quick as possible.
if left-wing terrorism was half as close to parliamentary left as right-wing terrorism is to parliamentary right being a member of anything left of center would be grounds for arrest already in most countries.
could you imagine anything like the uproar the established right had over the 2012 SPLC report about the militia & abortion terrorism if it was about the left?

I don't know; I'm not sure I remember the last time we had a left-wing terrorist in the United States, so I don't have a frame of reference to compare it to. But, for example, Timothy McVeigh's OKC bombing did lead to a lot of FBI attention for the militia movement. The only person I can think of in the U.S. who might fit your definition at all is the aforementioned Chris Dorner, and I think the media recognized very early on that the more publicity he had the more support he would get.

And I also don't think that it's necessarily a fair comparison. Left-wing terrorism is generally qualitatively different from right-wing terrorism. That's what I was trying to get at in my second or third post in this thread:


So the political and the personal are indeed intertwined, but for reasons that aren't as simple as "right-wing = bad," having more to do with how the agenda of the left requires social cohesion, whereas individual terrorism is something that is seen as productive by the right because "isolated" attacks on patterns of social cohesion [e.g. the ability of men and women to socialize publicly on a college campus without fear of violence, or to visit abortion clinics without fear of violence] ultimately do serve the interests of male dominance, white dominance, and so on.

The point being that "lone wolf" terrorism is actually productive for the right-wing agenda, whereas it's not at all productive for the left, in purely rational terms. I mean, I guess there's ecoterrorism and the like, but I almost never see that stuff reported on with anything but sobriety. It just does not provoke the same outrage as something like this. The violence of the left has to be social in origin and in character and that generally precludes intentionally targeting completely innocent civilians.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

You're right about the lack of left wing terror to compare it to, but we can look at how the state and media react to the leftwing or jihadist "plots" that the FBI first creates and then saves everyone from once every few months. Whether its the bridge in Cincinnati, or the people who got suckered into planting fake bombs at a jewish center, the question of ideology is always at the forefront of any coverage of these events, where as lone shooters are always a simple case of the mentally ill not getting the help they needed before it was too late.

[synthesis]

I agree with this completely. Just to be clear, I was not arguing that this incident is necessarily reducible to "a nut with a gun who was just looking for an excuse to kill people" (which another poster implied I was saying).

That was actually a quote of mine, more or less. I think what I should have said was that he was "looking for an excuse to kill people on a suicidal rampage." The suicidal part was important not to leave out.

But this:


But ultimately, it is really impossible to know to what extent he was actually motivated by his anger toward women versus by the fact that he was psychologically disturbed or what exactly the interaction between these two factors was, to what extent Men's Rights ideology contributed to all this, etc. etc. That is the problem with trying to construct some pressing political narrative around an individual incident like this. And to a certain extent, it just comes across as people jumping on the sensationalism bandwagon, IMO.

is spot on, to me. I guess one issue of mine is that I don't want this shooting to elevate MRA to the level of the absurd. It's a very real and immediate problem that should be dealt with carefully and purposefully. If we append our criticism of MRA with declarations that it "leads to stuff like Elliott Rodger" - a quote I just made up and haven't seen anywhere, for the record - I think that makes such dialogue a lot harder to address meaningfully. Again, I don't see anybody doing that. It would analogously impede our efforts to disabuse people of notions of abortion "ending a life" to also tell them that their beliefs or assumptions will result in anti-abortion terrorism. As I said in my first post in this thread, unstable people on the right can find a lot of reasons to do things like this - anti-Semitism, anti-NWO, anti-feminism, anti-federal government - and it should be looked at as a whole rather than picking out parts to fit a politically expedient narrative, as you (sort of) said.

[synthesis]

You're right about the lack of left wing terror to compare it to, but we can look at how the state and media react to the leftwing or jihadist "plots" that the FBI first creates and then saves everyone from once every few months. Whether its the bridge in Cincinnati, or the people who got suckered into planting fake bombs at a jewish center, the question of ideology is always at the forefront of any coverage of these events, where as lone shooters are always a simple case of the mentally ill not getting the help they needed before it was too late.

I think that's true but I'd also argue that Islamist manifestations of things like this are intrinsically right-wing as well, not just in their intentions but in their inception, down to their very core, and are generally the same shoe on the other foot, parallel to petit-bourgeois white American terrorism. I also think that left-wing terrorism, as a rule, does not indiscriminately target civilians which just doesn't cause the same sort of explosive (figuratively speaking) stories that you see with the right. But maybe I'm lacking a certain perspective since I live on the west coast and it seems like things such as the attempted Cincinnati bombing are generally addressed with a different tone than things like this.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I think that's true but I'd also argue that Islamist manifestations of things like this are intrinsically right-wing as well, not just in their intentions but in their inception, down to their very core, and are generally the same shoe on the other foot, parallel to petit-bourgeois white American terrorism. I also think that left-wing terrorism, as a rule, does not indiscriminately target civilians which just doesn't cause the same sort of explosive (figuratively speaking) stories that you see with the right. But maybe I'm lacking a certain perspective since I live on the west coast and it seems like things such as the attempted Cincinnati bombing are generally addressed with a different tone than things like this.

Well yeah you're probably right about the character of those incidents. Since those plots always originate inside the FBI itself, the ideology behind them is always either the FBI's or the FBI's crude interpretation of somebody else's ideology. Comparing coverage, (mass murderers for sure get way more of that) there's definitely a unique taste of hysteria present when these cases come up that always seems to be lacking when someone shoots up a busy street or a flies a plane into a building because Obama wants to outlaw patriotism or whatever.

[Rosa Partizan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/02/us/elliot-rodger-killings-in-california-followed-years-of-withdrawal.html?smid=fb-nytimes&WT.z_sma=US_ERK_20140602&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1388552400000&bicmet=1420088400000&_r=3

another apologetic article. Media coverage would be completely different if he'd been black.

[Luís Henrique]

No, I really think that the talk about "hypersexualization" is just dressed up sexual moralism and doesn't describe a real phenomenon at all.

I am pretty sure that it can be used like that, and have even denounced some of it when I saw it here (or elsewhere). But sex is a commodity like anything else, and as such advertised and mystified as any commodity: cheap, easy to acquire, and will solve all of our problems if we buy it.


Old men/nuns have been sounding the alarm about the destructive, creeping influence of sex in society (and the supposed resulting "devaluation" of both sex and society) - and attributing any sort of horrific event or social crisis to it - for a very long time. The fact that, when pressed to explain this "hypersexualization", people are reduced to saying things like "Barbie is hypersexualization [because] Barbie is the male gaze taken to the extreme and fed to adolescent children", and 'Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus are hypersexualization because they "make sex look boring like painting a wall"' really just underscores the absurdity of the whole idea. Yes, sex is more conspicuous in society today than it was a hundred years ago (and thankfully so, IMO). So what?

So the problem is the fetishism of commodity.

Barbie, Justin Biber and Miley Cirus are commodities, and sexual commodities at that. And are consequently fetishes, sexual fetishes, commodified fetishes. And yes, the fact that sex is more conspicuous now than a hundred years ago is directly related to its commodification. If it wasn't commodified, it wouldn't be more conspicuous than in the recent past.

I do agree with your sentiment - thankfully, sex is more conspicuous now than it was a century ago; if the price for such conspicuousness is commodification, so be it.

But the phenomenon doesn't run smoothly, much on the contrary. It is full of frictions, stallings, crises.

And killing sprees.


That may well have been the case with the Sandy Hook incident, but there doesn't seem to be evidence of the same sort of obsessive preoccupation with violence for it's own sake that would support that conclusion in this case.

Well, violence is still another commodity and another fetish. Unhappilly, just as it is common to sell licquour stuffed chocolate (or is that chocolate covered licquour?), it is also common to sell violence stuffed sex, or sex covered violence.


But ultimately, it is really impossible to know to what extent he was actually motivated by his anger toward women versus by the fact that he was psychologically disturbed or what exactly the interaction between these two factors was, to what extent Men's Rights ideology contributed to all this, etc. etc.

I don't think that we can establish in what precise (or rough, for what matters) "proportions" MRA "ideology" and mental illness each "contributed" to this horror. But I do think it is safe to say that any "narrative" that "this has nothing to do with ideology, it is just madness", or, conversely, that "this has nothing to do with mental disease, it is just what you get when you deliberately spread hate against women" is quite certainly false.

And that part of these "narratives" being false is that MRA "ideology" and mental illness are not independent variables.


That is the problem with trying to construct some pressing political narrative around an individual incident like this. And to a certain extent, it just comes across as people jumping on the sensationalism bandwagon, IMO.

Maybe. But the problem with not constructing political "narratives" is that others will, and we will then always run behind, trying to deconstruct the narratives of the press, the pundits, the liberals, the conservatives, the Stalinists, etc.

Luís Henrique

[human strike]

This article makes some very good points, including on the relevance of race: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/06/elliot-rodger-killing-sexism-20146219411713900.html

[Dialectical Wizard]

A lot of misogyny seems to be rooted in sexual frustration. Or there is at least some correlation going on there. But I have read scientific studies that confirm my thesis, a lot of violence and aggression that male hominids participate in does seem to correlate with feelings of sexual frustration. One must realize that these feelings are irrational and the sexist thought patterns that come with it are nothing more than petty emotions. Canalize those negative emotions into something positive. Go exercise, engage in artistic and intellectual activities.