Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution

[Redistribute the Rep]

http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Sutton_Wall_Street_and_the_bolshevik_revolution-5.pdf

What is this load of horse shit?!


There has been a continuing, albeit concealed, alliance between international political capitalists and international revolutionary socialists--to their mutual benefit.

[Geiseric]

Since a website said it, it must be true.

[Redistribute the Rep]

I've heard this whole "Wall Street funded the Bolsheviks" many times and am wondering where it comes from

[Geiseric]

Nazis did in the 1930s although they themselves were funded by wall street. They said it was a Jewish conspiracy. It's propaganda made by some hack.

[exeexe]

Well Trotsky did do a lot of horseshit. This horseshit presented here would explain all the horseshit he did.
Stalin also said:


The crux of the Stalinist accusation was that Trotskyites were paid agents of international
capitalism. K. G. Rakovsky, one of the 1938 defendants, said, or was induced to say, "We were
the vanguard of foreign aggression, of international fascism, and not only in the USSR but also
in Spain, China, throughout the world." The summation of the "court" contains the statement,
"There is not a single man in the world who brought so much sorrow and misfortune to people
as Trotsky. He is the vilest agent of fascism

The quote is in the PDF document. But if Trotsky really was paid by the capitalist class as this document suggest then Stalin was right. On the other hand Stalin can say what he want, kill who he want and get away with it...

Its only a guess but its not impossible - Maybe by centralizing Russia and by putting all the power in one place, he was preparing Russia to be exploited by the rulling class sitting in Europe or USA thus fulfilling his side of the contract.

[Redistribute the Rep]

It's just that the Bolsheviks gave a ton of land to Germany, which would be directly against the American bourgeoisie's interests, as they invested money in the Allies. And of course the ideological differences, hence the invasion on behalf of the Whites in the Russian Civil War. So not sure how it makes any sense that the Wall Street would fund the Bolsheviks?

[Luís Henrique]

I'[snip]m wondering where it comes from

From antisemitism, where else from?

http://www.whale.to/b/communism.html
http://myforex.npage.de/secret-power.html
http://beforeitsnews.com/libertarian/2012/08/the-elite-criminal-international-banksters-funded-the-creation-and-every-rise-of-marxist-communist-socialist-regime-2445018.html
http://www.wildboar.net/multilingual/easterneuropean/russian/literature/articles/whofinanced/whofinancedleninandtrotsky.html
http://www.infowars.com/michael-moore-defends-the-professional-left-against-obama-and-the-banksters/

Luís Henrique

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

It's just that the Bolsheviks gave a ton of land to Germany, which would be directly against the American bourgeoisie's interests, as they invested money in the Allies. And of course the ideological differences, hence the invasion on behalf of the Whites in the Russian Civil War. So not sure how it makes any sense that the Wall Street would fund the Bolsheviks?

What I think should be pointed out is that nation states such as America or the Soviet Union are really just facades presented by those who actually run shit aka the international bourgeoisie. So while X incident in 19whogivesashit may have run contrary to immediate national interests, financially for the businessmen involved it's not. The bourgeoisie don't kowtow to national interests rather they are concerned only with their annual completion reports and dividends. I mean, take the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as a prime example. On a national level it was a blunder of all blunders. For a select few capitalist and their associate firms it was a gold rush at the tune of billions. No one of actual importance gives a shit about ideals or ideology, they're concerned with making money, period.

Yes, I do believe the SU was funded by someone. As to who they are exactly, I'm not sure. The Americans seem like a good guess.

[adipocere]

The author reminds me of a polished Alex Jones - but it looks like entertaining reading, nonetheless.

[Redistribute the Rep]

What I think should be pointed out is that nation states such as America or the Soviet Union are really just facades presented by those who actually run shit aka the international bourgeoisie. So while X incident in 19whogivesashit may have run contrary to immediate national interests, financially for the businessmen involved it's not. The bourgeoisie don't kowtow to national interests rather they are concerned only with their annual completion reports and dividends. I mean, take the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as a prime example. On a national level it was a blunder of all blunders. For a select few capitalist and their associate firms it was a gold rush at the tune of billions. No one of actual importance gives a shit about ideals or ideology, they're concerned with making money, period.

Yes, I do believe the SU was funded by someone. As to who they are exactly, I'm not sure. The Americans seem like a good guess.

If you look at the numbers though, all the American investments were in the Allied countries, investments in Germany dropped off dramatically during the war. It wouldn't make sense to support a country that helped Germany by giving them a ton of land. This was part of the reason America invaded Russia in the Civil War. I just can't think of a way Wall Street would benefit from the Revolution, when it was so clearly against their interests.

[exeexe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk

The treaty was forced on the Soviet government by the threat of further advances by German and Austrian forces. By the treaty, Soviet Russia defaulted on Imperial Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Russia)'s commitments to the Triple Entente (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Entente) alliance. In the treaty Russia ceded the Baltic States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_States) to Germany and its province of Kars Oblast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kars_Oblast) in the south Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Caucasus) to the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire), and it recognized the independence of Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic). Russia also agreed to pay six billion German gold mark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_gold_mark) in reparations. Historian Spencer Tucker says, "The German General Staff had formulated extraordinarily harsh terms that shocked even the German negotiator."[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk#cite_note-2) Russian-Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Partition) was not mentioned in the treaty, as Germans refused to recognize the existence of any Polish representatives, which in turn led to Polish protests.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk#cite_note-3) When Germans later complained that the Treaty of Versailles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles) of 1919 was too harsh on them, the Allies (and historians favorable to the Allies) responded that it was more benign than Brest-Litovsk.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk#cite_note-4) Under the treaty, the Baltic states were meant to become German vassal states under German princelings. [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk#cite_note-5)
The treaty was practically obsolete in November 1918, when Germany in effect surrendered to the Allies. However it did provide some relief to the Bolsheviks, already fighting the Russian Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War), by renouncing Russia's claims on Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland), Finland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland), Estonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia), Latvia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia), Belarus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus), Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine), and Lithuania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania).


So the bolsheviks had the option to fight and lose some ground or to have peace and lose ground. And ofcourse having peace with a foreign nationstate is of really high value when your revolution is just about to come true.

[exeexe]

edit: Double post (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk)

[Rafiq]

What I think should be pointed out is that nation states such as America or the Soviet Union are really just facades presented by those who actually run shit aka the international bourgeoisie. So while X incident in 19whogivesashit may have run contrary to immediate national interests, financially for the businessmen involved it's not. The bourgeoisie don't kowtow to national interests rather they are concerned only with their annual completion reports and dividends. I mean, take the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as a prime example. On a national level it was a blunder of all blunders. For a select few capitalist and their associate firms it was a gold rush at the tune of billions. No one of actual importance gives a shit about ideals or ideology, they're concerned with making money, period.

Yes, I do believe the SU was funded by someone. As to who they are exactly, I'm not sure. The Americans seem like a good guess.

I can't believe you can be stupid enough to think that the U.S. or the Soviet Union were ever "nation-states"

Moreover, I can't believe that users have let this complete fucking horseshit slide, and I can't believe the BA completely tolerates this conspiracy shit which has it's origins in Industrial antisemitism.

What the fuck? Is this a joke? How can someone pass this dribble off as history? Who are the "international bourgeoisie" and what evidence do you have that they possess a homogeneus conscious interest that is manifested in... What exactly? Or did you mean to say the international banks? Secret societies? Jews? Lizards? I wonder how this revelation can be further applied to history

Vox shut the fuck up and get out, stop posting and abjure from politics and or anything that pertains to the realm of social sciences, including history and so on. More and more from the likes of you, I am less hostile towards the prospect of summary execution of reactionary intellectuals.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I can't believe you can be stupid enough to think that the U.S. or the Soviet Union were ever "nation-states"

Moreover, I can't believe that users have let this complete fucking horseshit slide, and I can't believe the BA completely tolerates this conspiracy shit which has it's origins in Industrial antisemitism.

What the fuck? Is this a joke? How can someone pass this dribble off as history? Who are the "international bourgeoisie" and what evidence do you have that they possess a homogeneus conscious interest that is manifested in... What exactly? Or did you mean to say the international banks? Secret societies? Jews? Lizards? I wonder how this revelation can be further applied to history

Vox shut the fuck up and get out, stop posting and abjure from politics and or anything that pertains to the realm of social sciences, including history and so on. More and more from the likes of you, I am less hostile towards the prospect of summary execution of reactionary intellectuals.

Actually, I don't think anyone cares to hear your pissed fan boy bullshit. In fact, I am reporting this post and I want it highlighted considering it's yet another unwarranted personal attack. I also don't understand why you continue to pick on me, my English and word choices. Industrial anti semitism? That's new. Wanting me to executed for Internet forum posts? That's hilarious. If you have nothing nice to say baby then don't say anything at all. Should you continue I will exhaust all efforts and will campaign to have you banned. Wanna see who would win a popularity contest around here? Lmao, fuck off maggot.

But to answer you when I said the international bourgeoisie I of course am referring to those people like J P Morgan, Rockafellar, the Rothschilds, etc. the so called "masters of the universe." You and I both know this and don't sit here and pretend like you don't because you do and are purposely trying twist my words and opinions. I am sorry you can't terms with your bizarre infatuation but we're done here. Or what, do you get some thrill out of stalking and berating women on the internet? Am I some surrogate that rejected you? Wtf is your problem?

[Rurkel]

Originally Posted by VoX

people like J P Morgan, Rockafellar, the Rothschilds, etc. the so called "masters of the universe."I was sympathetic towards you in your squabble with Rafiq. Then you've posted this and I am no longer sympathetic towards anyone here :glare:

Capitalists don't control capital, capital "controls" capitalists.

[Rafiq]

But to answer you when I said the international bourgeoisie I of course am referring to those people like J P Morgan, Rockafellar, the Rothschilds, etc. the so called "masters of the universe."

No, don't act like there is this tacit kind of understanding here as to harboring such reactionary (and equally false!) ideas about the nature of power and the nature of our social existence to begin with. I know very well that pervasive throughout the Left - since our defeat the Left is just crawling with reactionary scum of all stripes, and any future movement of Communism will do well to expose, and crush them with equal ferocity we do the enemy.

There is absolutely no viable evidence to suggest that the Bolshevik revolution was "funded" or orchestrated by some international jewish... Oh, excuse me, I mean "Bourgeois" or "financial" (though it doesn't matter, the logic is all the same, it is the same ideological archetype!) conspiracy, AT ALL. Even the most vile of historians, who hold legitimacy would not dare espouse such nonsense. To suggest capitalism as a social phenomena, to suggest that the historical, political and social implications brought about by capitalism are a result of conscious, conspiratorial will is not only false - it is a precise indication of the logic of anti-semitism.

Such nonsense has no place here, if I am picking on you it is because you've espoused the most vile, reactionary nonsense while escaping notice for it. Do you really think such threats, over an internet forum have any effect on me? Go ahead, If I am banned from this website for attacking you, an open reactionary then this website would not be a place I would want to visit anyway, seeing that it strictly prides itself on being a place of discussion for radical leftists.

[Rafiq]

All of that aside, the October revolution is the ABSOLUTE manifestation of the spirit of Communism, all that was vested in us, all that distinguished Communism as a historical movement climaxed during that time - this isn't simply a historical debate, it's a question of our legacy and what it means to be a Communist. In the same way 'progressive' and 'reactionary' were divided on their stance towards the French revolution - in modern capitalism the same is applied towards their stance towards the October revolution. And perhaps it is one thing to claim it was not a "genuine" worker's revolution, as ludicrous and inaccurate as that would be, it rests upon confused and intellectually masturbatory reasoning, it is ENTIRELY another thing to claim it was some orchestrated conspiracy by some kind of International agency. Albeit the postmodern left, the Chomskyite scum perhaps can conflate and combine the two, but historically Left Communists have never held to such a belief. Rarely even, was such an attitude harbored by Anarchists.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

No, don't act like there is this tacit kind of understanding here as to harboring such reactionary (and equally false!) ideas about the nature of power and the nature of our social existence to begin with. I know very well that pervasive throughout the Left - since our defeat the Left is just crawling with reactionary scum of all stripes, and any future movement of Communism will do well to expose, and crush them with equal ferocity we do the enemy.
Your ridiculous.


There is absolutely no viable evidence to suggest that the Bolshevik revolution was "funded" or orchestrated by some international jewish... Oh, excuse me, I mean "Bourgeois" or "financial" (though it doesn't matter, the logic is all the same, it is the same ideological archetype!) conspiracy, AT ALL. Even the most vile of historians, who hold legitimacy would not dare espouse such nonsense. To suggest capitalism as a social phenomena, to suggest that the historical, political and social implications brought about by capitalism are a result of conscious, conspiratorial will is not only false - it is a precise indication of the logic of anti-semitism.

Actually nothing I've said thus far in this thread has been conspiratorial and would make sense to anyone with half a brain considering things don't happen in a vacuum. There's totally evidence of international financiers funding the Bolsheviks. If this upsets you, I'm sorry. This notion of anti-Semitism is your own creation and a pathetic attempt at discrediting me for what reason idk. I'm pretty legit dude.


Such nonsense has no place here, if I am picking on you it is because you've espoused the most vile, reactionary nonsense while escaping notice for it. Do you really think such threats, over an internet forum have any effect on me? Go ahead, If I am banned from this website for attacking you, an open reactionary then this website would not be a place I would want to visit anyway, seeing that it strictly prides itself on being a place of discussion for radical leftists.

Translation: I have jack dick to say about any assertion presented so I'm going to throw a fit for no reason. Do you really think this mature of you?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

All of that aside, the October revolution is the ABSOLUTE manifestation of the spirit of Communism, all that was vested in us, all that distinguished Communism as a historical movement climaxed during that time - this isn't simply a historical debate, it's a question of our legacy and what it means to be a Communist. In the same way 'progressive' and 'reactionary' were divided on their stance towards the French revolution - in modern capitalism the same is applied towards their stance towards the October revolution. And perhaps it is one thing to claim it was not a "genuine" worker's revolution, as ludicrous and inaccurate as that would be, it rests upon confused and intellectually masturbatory reasoning, it is ENTIRELY another thing to claim it was some orchestrated conspiracy by some kind of International agency. Albeit the postmodern left, the Chomskyite scum perhaps can conflate and combine the two, but historically Left Communists have never held to such a belief. Rarely even, was such an attitude harbored by Anarchists.

I care about the truth, and what's real. Not the fake legacy of some over-glorified (and capitalist) government. It's about as relevant as Lenin's mummy. Fuck Communism and fuck Marxism (yeah I said it). The day that someone can prove to me the fSU ever made it past the capitalist stage is the day I might change my tune. Pretty much a new boss is the same as the old just a little less shit kind of a situation.

[BIXX]

Or did you mean to say the international banks? Secret societies? Jews? Lizards?


I think you meant the secret societies of international banking Jew lizards ;)

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

I don't think the SU was funded or whatever.

That being said, why is everyone on this site so opposed to admitting that private banking cartels do exist? If anyone mentions that, they're automatically labeled as believing in some kind of Jewish or lizard people conspiracy theory. Publicly available information will tell you that Wall Street does profit from wars and loaning money to governments. There is a cabal of bankers that make profits, I'm sorry to say. This isn't like "hidden knowledge" or something. Wealthy financiers DO manipulate certain things. Why the fuck do you think that the US has initiated so many coups on other governments? Did you think it benefitted a bunch of government officials in the US govt? No, it benefits Wall Street. Why is Vox Populi getting attacked for mentioning the names of banking families that might profit from certain policies?

[Remus Bleys]

I think you meant the secret societies of international banking Jew lizards ;)

For God's sake they are called Draconians!

[Prometeo liberado]

I was sympathetic towards you in your squabble with Rafiq. Then you've posted this and I am no longer sympathetic towards anyone here :glare:

Capitalists don't control capital, capital "controls" capitalists.

Ooh. We're going all "David Graeber-emo" on this thread now are we.:rolleyes:

[Turinbaar]

Can vox show some proof of international funding for the bolsheviks and convince us that this talk of the Rothschilds as masters of the universe is derived anywhere other than Larouche or goebellian favorites like this?

9ERcC1l6cRM

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Can vox show some proof of international funding for the bolsheviks and convince us that this talk of the Rothschilds as masters of the universe is derived anywhere other than Larouche or goebellian favorites like this?

9ERcC1l6cRM

Trotsky in his own book about his own life talks of a British financier paying the Bolsheviks to help with the revolution. Are you saying he was suffering from some temporary psychosis? The fuck is wrong with you people? Use Google and realize that yeah, businessmen do invest from time to time and one would assume the Red Army, as poor as it was, pulled weapons, materials, etc. out of their ass now did they? No, I don't think so either. But hey, let's continue to link me with assholes that have no association with me I my claims whatsoever further validating some crazed person's e-stalking. That's cool. It's not even a conspiracy; it's common sense and basic history.

[Redistribute the Rep]

Yes the Bolsheviks had individual financiers, but it's absurd to think that Wall Street had anything to do with them or benefited in any way.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Yes the Bolsheviks had individual financiers, but it's absurd to think that Wall Street had anything to do with them or benefited in any way.

Debt? Interest? Profit? What are you talking about? Why would someone invest money or capital with no expectation of some sort of return financially, politically and so on? They wouldn't. That wouldn't really make any sense. As previously stated I'm not concerned with some fictional homogenous entity, this Wallstreet but more pointing out that yes, the Bolsheviks were financed by what I have taken to call the international bourgeoisie or capitalists whom are not concerned or effected by immediate national interests or concerns. I don't understand why this is being contested so much or why there apparently so much confusion as to what I'm talking about.

Is weird that everyone one here wants to throw around this word 'bourgeois' but who are these people? Do they have names? Why is this not relevant information? Are they people or are they some boogeyman in the dark fucking us like some demented Wizard of Oz?

[Turinbaar]

Debt? Interest? Profit? What are you talking about? Why would someone invest money or capital with no expectation of some sort of return financially, politically and so on? They wouldn't. That wouldn't really make any sense. As previously stated I'm not concerned with some fictional homogenous entity, this Wallstreet but more pointing out that yes, the Bolsheviks were financed by what I have taken to call the international bourgeoisie or capitalists whom are not concerned or effected by immediate national interests or concerns. I don't understand why this is being contested so much or why there apparently so much confusion as to what I'm talking about.

Is weird that everyone one here wants to throw around this word 'bourgeois' but who are these people? Do they have names? Why is this not relevant information? Are they people or are they some boogeyman in the dark fucking us like some demented Wizard of Oz?

Actually in Jessica Mitford's memoirs she does recount a businessman who backed the CPUSA and kept signed receipts, not because he was part of some fictional conspiratorial set of world puppeteers, but rather because he was a tool who thought he'd get rewarded after the revolution. We're the ones stressing the absence of the boogeyman. The Bourgeoisie are a class made up of individual people with interests that often don't make sense, even financially, which is why it is alarming to hear them talked about as though they were some sort of secret banking conspiracy profiting from historical upheaval, as is so often when the Rothschilds are mentioned.

[Redistribute the Rep]

Debt? Interest? Profit? What are you talking about? Why would someone invest money or capital with no expectation of some sort of return financially, politically and so on? They wouldn't. That wouldn't really make any sense. As previously stated I'm not concerned with some fictional homogenous entity, this Wallstreet but more pointing out that yes, the Bolsheviks were financed by what I have taken to call the international bourgeoisie or capitalists whom are not concerned or effected by immediate national interests or concerns. I don't understand why this is being contested so much or why there apparently so much confusion as to what I'm talking about.

Is weird that everyone one here wants to throw around this word 'bourgeois' but who are these people? Do they have names? Why is this not relevant information? Are they people or are they some boogeyman in the dark fucking us like some demented Wizard of Oz?

Possibly class traitors. Like Turinbaar said, while the bourgeoisie as a population has concrete material interests, certain individuals have different interests. Simply financing them doesn't necessarily mean they want a return.

Karl Marx had a fairly well known financier who was a class traitor, for example.

[Rafiq]

There's totally evidence of international financiers funding the Bolsheviks. If this upsets you, I'm sorry. This notion of anti-Semitism is your own creation and a pathetic attempt at discrediting me for what reason idk. I'm pretty legit dude.


What evidence? Show me this evidence, you fucking scoundrel. You cannot, because you know damned well that the only evidence you'll find is from some crackpot reactionary source. I suppose only Fascists and other such reactionaries know the truth of the manner, and everyone else, including conservative bourgeois historians are in on this international conspiracy of finance.

There's no arguing with your like. The logic of anti-semitism can only be combated with the power of Marxism.

[Rafiq]

I care about the truth, and what's real.

A distributor of reactionary philistine lies would dare speak of truth? Without the whole, there is no truth. This is how we know your falseness, it is the inconsistency of your universality. No matter, before (the October revolution) those weak of heart, those pseudo socialist intellectuals, those degenerate reformists, chauvinists and petty bourgeois cowards had appealed to the power of the class enemy and subjugated our cause to their hegemony, on their terms. On that night when Aurora cried out to the heavens, not even the class enemy could resist the power and awe of the revolution - the mantle of truth was, for a short time clear and in plain sight, and the enemy was exposed, and had nowhere to hide from it's terrible dawn. Might you, Vox, and anyone else who dare spread such vulgar lies about our legacy remember that you can only tread in the darkness from which your lies mask themselves for so long, the sun always rises.


Not the fake legacy of some over-glorified (and capitalist) government. It's about as relevant as Lenin's mummy. Fuck Communism and fuck Marxism (yeah I said it). The day that someone can prove to me the fSU ever made it past the capitalist stage is the day I might change my tune. Pretty much a new boss is the same as the old just a little less shit kind of a situation.

We don't need you, we don't want you. If you want to ignore all of the complicated historical factors which led to the ultimate defeat of the October revolution, no one is going to stop you. You are going to believe what is convenient, what is easy. This is precisely how antisemitism works, it is the highest form of intellectual laziness (one need only take a closer look at the inconsistency of any conspiracy based narrative of history). You're a philistine, you can fester in your righteous ignorance. You are like the man who, after committing a horrible act, threatens to kill himself in order to be redeemed. No serious Marxist cares about what nonsensical reservations you might possess, you do not pose a threat to us. You can believe whatever the fuck you want, but don't for a second think you can get away with having your filth get passed off as the truth.

[Rafiq]

Use Google and realize that yeah, businessmen do invest from time to time

Let's use google, then.

One of the first results is from a reactionary religious website with the apparent intention of freeing the world from the remnants of the enlightenment and and a return to pre-humanist ideology.

Actually, almost all of these fucking websites lead to a book by Anthony Sutton, a long discredited reactionary historian. So where the fuck is your source, Vox? Are you too much of a coward to produce evidence without exposing yourself as a reactionary?


and one would assume the Red Army, as poor as it was, pulled weapons, materials, etc. out of their ass now did they? No, I don't think so either.


Are you fucking kidding me? What we know is that the Red Army supplied itself through War Communism, and all weapons utilized by the Red Army were weapons that were confiscated and brought over from the Tzarist era military. What gives you the fucking impression that the Red Army had to purchase all of these? And from where? Again, where the fuck is the evidence for these ludicrous claims? There is absolutely no evidence that financial contributions were a significant portion of the Red Army's war expenditures. That is a historically accepted fact. Now unless every fucking historian besides Anthony Sutton is in on this conspiracy of yours, you are already wrong.


That's cool. It's not even a conspiracy; it's common sense and basic history.

Which history? I have never seen this claim save from the tongues of reactionaries and conspiracy based websites. Tell me Vox, do they teach you this in college? They do not. If this is common sense, if this is basic history, then from which legitimate sources (the ultimate standard for "common sense") can we look to, in order to confirm this?

You will not find them, because they do not exist. And even then, prattle of "common sense" is precisely why you are a piece of shit, when has a revolutionary ever adhered to logic with regards to universality and the nature of power purely because it was "common sense"? If the logic of anti-semitism is common sense to you, you have already revealed a lot about the psychological foundations of your politics.

Nothing more detestable, nothing more heinous than a sinister coward - at least most reactionaries openly and apologetically admit what they are.

[Rafiq]

Is weird that everyone one here wants to throw around this word 'bourgeois' but who are these people? Do they have names? Why is this not relevant information? Are they people or are they some boogeyman in the dark fucking us like some demented Wizard of Oz?

Because they as a social category are not defined by their personalities or individuality, but their social relationship to the mode of production. They are not what we call an organized, homogeneous conscious will which is aware of it's own existence. A beast in the wild is not self aware, we categorize it's behaviors and means of survival based on it's existence as a natural phenomena, not because we caught them talking to each other about themselves once and ran away with this secret information. In the same way, the bourgeoisie may have no fucking clue about anything, they are a social phenomena, not a club.

When we say that historically, the bourgeoisie did something, we do not say that they acted together aware of their true existence. They are not some conscious agency that is aware of the materialist conception of history and the nature of capitalist social relations (As if Marx was some kind of 19th century whistleblower). They do, but they do not know. What a fucking idiot you are. Really what a worthless fucking person you are, even I'm shocked at high aggressively you defend your own stupidity.

[Rafiq]

Just from what has been revealed from this thread alone, the depths of Vox's ignorance are unimaginable. Anything she might ever say holds absolutely no legitimacy, we must assume it is a lie until proven otherwise. I am quite disappointed to admit that truly, I have never seen such stupidity aggrandize itself in such a way.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Wow, so hey BA, the fuck is up with anti-flaming rules? I get infracted for nothing and this cat gets to just talk me like this? Do I have to report all of his posts or what? Btw, I'll answer you tho tomorrow. Again, the level of hilarity, confusion and general annoyance is astounding. Take a now asshole considering again, as I've said before, you're a fake, identity idealogue with no connection to anyone or claim to anything. Maybe you don't understand, I'm gypsy, why would I defend the Bolsheviks? I wouldn't and am not going to when I don't have too. Again, if you want to suck dead people's dicks because you have a rosey view of history by all means, go ahead but don't expect me too. I also think the BA should make it impossible for you to post my username as that too also annoys me. Ridiculous. Take you and your liberal bullshit and fuck off.

[exeexe]

Lol someone in this thread never saw this little fine cartoon
k6zpfE7WjHI

[ComradeOm]

What I think should be pointed out is that nation states such as America or the Soviet Union are really just facades presented by those who actually run shit aka the international bourgeoisie.I think you mean 'the Illuminati'. Because you're talking about a giant global cabal acting in lockstep, rather than a class riddled with national and factional divisions. That is, you're being ridiculously reductionist, to the point of flogging conspiracy theories.

(The irony being that we're talking about a period in which this "international bourgeoisie" had just finished tearing itself apart and bringing itself to the point of destruction. But that was all due to the Armaments Lobby, right?)


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So who funded the Soviet Union? Well let's rule one source out immediately: it sure as hell wasn't the native bourgeoisie (which had been largely annihilated in 1917-18 and its assets expropriated). So let's look at foreign involvement in the Soviet economy:

During the NEP Lenin had high-hopes of attracting foreign investment into the Soviet Union; justified by the need to improve living conditions for the workers*. Ultimately though this came to nothing: by 1928 there were just 68 concessions in the USSR, comprising no more than 0.6% of industrial output (Nove, Economic History of the USSR). Loans and foreign investment were minuscule in financing the NEP. So much for the hands of "the international bourgeoisie" there.

This highly limited foreign investment collapsed even further during the Stalinist period. Foreign loans dried up and even trade deals (whereby credit was extended to facilitate Soviet purchases in Western market) were cancelled. The Soviet Five Year Plans were not financed by some "international bourgeoisie" and Western assistance was bought in hard cash or short-term credit. For Stalin the the key revenue streams were heavy taxes, the peasant 'tribute', internal state bonds/loans and exports for cash.

So who financed Soviet industrialisation? Try the Soviets themselves. I'm not sure why this is so unbelievable as to require foreign capital provided by a shadowy group of international bankers.

*Lenin: "We must consider the fact that labour productivity will not rise until the workers' conditions improve.... We must put at the heart of our concession policy the task of improving the conditions of the workers…. They are very well aware that if we fail to improve the conditions of the workers and peasants because of our prejudices, we shall multiply our difficulties and altogether undermine the prestige of Soviet power…. We will not grudge the foreign capitalist even a 2,000 per cent profit, provided we improve the conditions of the workers and peasants. It is imperative that we do it."


Actually nothing I've said thus far in this thread has been conspiratorial...It's been entirely conspiratorial. Unless you can explain why some foreign actor had to have financed either the Revolution or the Soviet Union. Why 'Wall St' had to have had a hand in the rise of Bolshevism.

The reason that you're getting flak is that you're travelling a very well worn route. Many people have tried to explain the Russian Revolution without reference to, I don't know, the prevailing materials conditions themselves and finance capital (be it Wall St or Jewish or both) has been a common answer. The problem for you is that those who have alighted on this have been almost universally conspiracy crackpots, antisemites or some combination of the two. You're not in good company, which is why I suspect it's taken you so long to produce this "evidence" that you've been touting.

[Ismail]

As an aside, after the "Stalinist period" the Soviet revisionists did integrate the USSR into the world capitalist economy. As the Albanians pointed out (http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/plavrev.html):

The Soviet revisionist press admits that half of the 800 biggest multi-national monopolies of the West have regular relations with the countries of the so-called socialist family (Myezhdunarodnaya Zhiznj, No. 9, 1979, p. 33). The developed capitalist countries control 30 per cent of the foreign trade of the Soviet Union which in the past five years has incurred a deficit in trade with them in excess of 10 billion rubles.

The strengthening of the links of the Soviet economy with the West is accompanied with an ever greater extension of non-mercantile relations, aimed at getting credits and technology from the West in return for raw materials and finished products. These relations, ranging from the so-called compensatory agreements and productive cooperation to the setting up of capitalist-revisionist joint enterprises, result in the merging of the cycles of the reproduction of the capital of both sides in a single complex movement, important elements of which already cannot function independently. These new links which assumed large-scale development especially in the 70’s, completed the integration of the economy of the Soviet Union and its satellites into the world capitalist system. The Soviet press admits that there are now 400 East-West joint enterprises and that more than 1,300 “compensatory agreements” are in operation in Europe alone (“Myezhdunarodnaya Zhiznj”, No. 4, 1979, p. 12).

At the beginning of 1979, more than 600 major economic complexes of the gas, chemical, petro-chemical, coal, iron, paper and cellulose, ferrous and non-ferrous metallurgical industries in the Soviet Union were working to provide the West with “compensation”, amounting to 30 to 60 per cent of their annual production, in return for technology and credits received. Such agreements, involving colossal amounts of reciprocal supplies, will be in force until the end of the century (Myezhdunarodnaya Zhiznj, No. 7, 1979, p. 15).

As a result, the revisionist Comecon member countries are in debt to Western imperialism to the tune of 75 billion dollars, and the Soviet Union, owing 19 billion dollars, is one of the biggest debtors.But yes, under Lenin and Stalin foreign and domestic capitalist investment played a minor role. According to (http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/state+capitalism) the 1970s Great Soviet Encyclopedia, on the "native" bourgeoisie and the willingness of the Bolsheviks to have them contribute to joint enterprises, "The Russian bourgeoisie would not accept state capitalism and was therefore forcibly expropriated. By 1923–24 the share of state-capitalist enterprises in the gross output of the national economy was only 0.1 percent, and the number of persons they employed at the end of 1925 did not exceed 1 percent of the country’s workers."

[Rafiq]

Vox, how exactly does that aid to your assertion that the bolshevik revolution was orchestrated by agents of finance?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Rafiq, in the future please use the multi-quote function when replying to one poster, thanks.