Is it nationalist to support your national football team?

[Comrade Jacob]

I support England for me national team just for the basic fact that I'm from there. I do support other teams if they get put out of a competition for example. But the concept of it being nationalist is really bothering me and the world cup is coming up so anyone saying "No Jake, it's not, come on England!" will be thanked.

[Rosso]

Thought about this too, but I think it's no problem if you don't overact. I'm from the Netherlands and I really hate all the Orange bullshit at those days. Back in the days it wasn't such a big market hype as they made it now.

Next to that I think that even in a communist society various territories can play against each other and people can support their club/territory because in the end it is fun to support the place where you come from. As long as you don't overdo it.

[DOOM]

I'm really no fan of this set-your-flag-up-everywhere and cup-nationalism attitude, but I'm going to support Bosnia. Don't really care if this is nationalist somehow, I just like to watch football and I feel connected to the bosnian and swiss team.
Ah yeah: Belgium is going to make it far, mark my words.

[Atsumari]

When Japan won the Women's FIFA Cup, I was thrilled, but not out of nationalism. After the earthquake and the despair that followed, it was a heart warming feeling for myself.

[PhoenixAsh]

Football is a counter revolutionary neo-liberal conspiracy to subvert the working class and draw their attention away from real issues in adaptation of the classical Roman adagio: panem et circenses.

:mad:

[Rosso]

Give up PhoenixAsh, you stand no chance against the mighty football culture.

PS But I do think you're right in some way.

PSS But still Football fuck yeah

[DOOM]

Football is a counter revolutionary neo-liberal conspiracy to subvert the working class and draw their attention away from real issues in adaptation of the classical Roman adagio: panem et circenses.

:mad:

crush the football cultural hegemony..I guess?:D

[Fegelnator]

Meh. Yeah, it's "nationalist". But who cares? Like above poster said, a sense of community is fun;)

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Just another part of our wonderful cultural hegemony /sarcasm.

[BITW434]

I support England for me national team just for the basic fact that I'm from there. I do support other teams if they get put out of a competition for example. But the concept of it being nationalist is really bothering me and the world cup is coming up so anyone saying "No Jake, it's not, come on England!" will be thanked.

It's okay to support England, I'll be doing it too, but there's no chance in hell you'll catch me joining in with that 'God Save The Queen' rubbish before kick off.. :rolleyes:

[exeexe]

If it looks like a national flag and if there are national colors all over the place, then its nationalism.
But there is a test. Among the crowd of nationalist sheeple, pick one person out and ask yourself what do you have in common with this person.

If you cant answer this question then why are you aligning yourself in traditions and culture with this random crowd of people and pursuing so aggressively towards the same goal?

[Thirsty Crow]

Meh. Yeah, it's "nationalist". But who cares? Like above poster said, a sense of community is fun;)
The Christians also enjoy their sense of community as well. Must be that it's fun and who cares and so on.

Really, if it's impossible for people to see how football culture - in some places more than in others - fosters nationalism (not only during events like the World Cup), then you've got a problem. Also check out one of Marx's concepts, that of the illusory community.

I don't care for particular people's choices to do this or not. I'll watch the games as well most probably. Though there are factors because of which I sure as hell won't do any of this national mania stuff.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I only express critical support for the Best Korean football team

[Bala Perdida]

I have Jersey's of the Mexican and Colombian national teams, and I kind of want to wear them when they play but I think I shouldn't.

[Eleutheromaniac]

As any good sports fan, I do the only rational thing possible: root for the team with the nicest kits. I really like France, because they have a chicken on their crest.

Seriously. That's what I do. I'm not even from France.

Nationalism may be a bourgeois ideology, but fuck it if I don't love me some football.

[Thirsty Crow]

I have Jersey's of the Mexican and Colombian national teams, and I kind of want to wear them when they play but I think I shouldn't.
Send me the Mexican one and I'll do it for ya :lol:

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

I hate that people support the England football team. I can never decide wether I want them to lose early so that everyone has to watch the rest of the World Cup dejectedly and generally downbeat - or if I would prefer that they get really far (getting everyone's hopes up) and then lose, so that it is a massive disappointment.

It's exactly the same crap as royal weddings, all that keep calm... bollocks, and flags everywhere. It's nationalism for sure.

I was brought up in England until age 12, and then Scotland until now (age 19 nearly 20). Scotland hates England. I have an English accent. I hate the 'English identity' and the 'Scottish identity' not to mention the ultimate colonial imperialistic 'British identity'. It all makes me want to kill myself.

National identities are stupid. Nations are stupid. I hate the England football team, but Scotland had better never win a game ever. I hate the Olympics (f*cking unbearable).

I hope you are fortunate enough to have your nation's football team do crap. Please wish that mine does. Nationalism is an infantile disorder.

I just want everyone to be as miserable as me.

It's not ok to support the England football team.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Yes. You should be restricted.

In all seriousness, through, professional sports do serve a nationalist function that shouldn't be ignored simply out of fear of being a buzzkill. Enjoying the game for its own sake is one thing. Rooting for a team out of a sense of national pride is another.

That's not even a concept recognize exclusively by revolutionaries or the likes of Chomsky who called it "training in irrational jingoism". French sociologist Emile Durkheim had a lot to say about pseudo-religious "collective effervescence" that's very much applicable to professional sports, especially when standing up for the anthem, etc.

I'll admit I'm guilty in the past of engaging in some harmless "third-worldism" or "anti-imperialism" by rooting specifically against Canada (in hockey, as the Canadian team has never gotten far in football, to my knowledge).

Enjoy the game, I guess, just don't be like the folks around here who still remember "Canada Russia '72" as though winning some hockey games vindicated the superiority of Canadian constitutional monarchy.

[Redistribute the Rep]

Football is tribalistic and reactionary

[M-L-C-F]

Seriously, sports are just a form of entertainment. The spectacle is indeed bullshit. But there is nothing wrong with sports as forms of entertainment, if you can recognize that. If you are aware of the problem of, and don't partake in, the stupid parts of the support mania. I've got no issue with a person rooting for their country's team in any event. Though, you could always just be a hater like PhoenixAsh and Russian Red, or a miserable puke like Xena Warrior Proletarian. If that's what you want to do, it's all up to you. (I'm kidding, so don't take that in an insulting way. :p)

But anyways, I had this very conversation of sorts, with my Latino co-workers at my last job. They usually support their home countries in football, or some other Latin American country. I told them how I'm uncomfortable with supporting the US from a political standpoint. They understood why, and while I want the US team to do good for the popularity of the sport here. As for who I support, it depends on who's in it, or who's left. If none of the teams that I was rooting for are left. I pick a team that I like more than the other, and support them in the remaining games.

Last time around, I was rooting for the Korea DPR and South Africa, then Brazil and Japan. This time around, I'm rooting for Ecuador and Brazil. I'll be paying attention to Japan and Algeria, just like last time. I also tend to support France, when it comes to the European teams. But who knows what happens this time.

[Left Voice]

The reality is that the vast majority of people are going through a gradual process of 'unlearning'. We are born and raised in an environment that encourages nationalism, and it takes years, decades to fully unlearn that. We may never rid ourselves of some residual remnants.

In the case of sport, it is down to your own individual attitude. Supporting any sports team can be interpreted as tribalism, be it your national team, or local club team. But there's ultimately nothing wrong with partaking in a little bit of recreation. If you walk around waving the St. George Flag and develop an irrational hatred for Germans and Argentines, then clearly supporting the national team is reinforcing nationalistic tendencies. However, if supporting England simply adds to the enjoyment of the event, you're able to see things in purely sporting terms, and are also able to flick over the channel afterwards and enjoy any other team, then I see no real problem. I'll be doing the same thing - I might playfully be supporting my national team, but I'll also 'support' Belgium in the next game. Just a bit of fun.

There are bigger things for the left to worry about. Trust yourself to see through the jingoism.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Last time around, I was rooting for the Korea DPR

:confused:

[Thirsty Crow]

:confused:
Workers' state. Degenerated, deformed, or generally unhealthy.

Problem?

(to admit it as a real underdog, and I do tend to look favorably upon underdogs, the NK did figure...kinda)

[The Intransigent Faction]

Workers' state.

Not even remotely close. In any case, as far as I'm aware China was one of few exceptions to the rule as far as their Olympics participation.

[Left Voice]

I am reminded of during the London Olympics when they accidentally displayed the South Korean flag on the screen when announcing the teams, and the North Korean team refused to play until they changed it. :)

I think in football, there is simply a tendency to support the underdog. Jingoism really only comes into play when the team is actually a strong team (the obsession that people in England have with playing against Germany and Argentina, for example).

[M-L-C-F]

:confused:

What's confusing? I support the DPRK on many issues still, despite being critical of them. You bet I'll support their team, especially against the south, the western teams, and Japan. Hell, I root for China against Japan and the west in international events. Because I like seeing them win against them, despite my issues with China.

Oh yeah, and as for "standing for the anthem". The only reason why I stand, is so I don't get hassled by any jackasses around me. I just hum The Internationale, or twiddle my thumbs.

[Thirsty Crow]

:confused:
Like I said:

W
hat's confusing? I support the DPRK on many issues still, despite being critical of them. You bet I'll support their team, especially against the south, the western teams, and Japan. Hell, I root for China against Japan and the west in international events.

[M-L-C-F]

Also, as for pride of where you're from. I take pride in Detroit, cause of the people here. Our working class, and the legitimate history of revolutionaries and movements that we've had here.

Oh, and I can't forget about my support of China against rogue province Taiwan ("Chinese Taipei") in international events either. ;)

[Left Voice]

Also, as for pride of where you're from. I take pride in Detroit, cause of the people here. Our working class, and the legitimate history of revolutionaries and movements that we've had here.
See, while I fully respect that you will have your own personal reasons for such pride, I would offer a word of caution.

The reality is, most of us are associated with a place due to accident of birth. It is no great achievement of ours that we were born in our hometown, it just happened. People associate themselves with the history of a particular place or a 'people', despite the fact that they themselves had nothing to do with those achievements. For example, British people might talk about how proud they are that the UK was the birthplace of the industrial revolution, yet the modern day British person had about as much to do with this as a Buddhist monk in Tibet. Yet we subscribe to these ideas and buy into these histories as if they were ours.

During the Olympics, everybody in the UK was so proud of Jessica Ennis. Be glad for her, she worked hard and it paid off - good for her. But people suddenly jumping on her success, talking about how 'proud' they are, despite the fact that they had nothing to do with it except sharing the same nationality (which is an invented concept to begin with). Be glad for her, but don't pretend that all British people somehow had anything to do with it by association.

This is where I am a bit weary. Recognise and be aware of history, and give these people all the praise in the world. But I'd be weary of embracing it as part of your own identity merely through accident of birth.

[M-L-C-F]

See, while I fully respect that you will have your own personal reasons for such pride, I would offer a word of caution.

The reality is, most of us are associated with a place due to accident of birth. It is no great achievement of ours that we were born in our hometown, it just happened. People associate themselves with the history of a particular place or a 'people', despite the fact that they themselves had nothing to do with those achievements. For example, British people might talk about how proud they are that the UK was the birthplace of the industrial revolution, yet the modern day British person had about as much to do with this as a Buddhist monk in Tibet. Yet we subscribe to these ideas and buy into these histories as if they were ours.

During the Olympics, everybody in the UK was so proud of Jessica Ennis. Be glad for her, she worked hard and it paid off - good for her. But people suddenly jumping on her success, talking about how 'proud' they are, despite the fact that they had nothing to do with it except sharing the same nationality (which is an invented concept to begin with). Be glad for her, but don't pretend that all British people somehow had anything to do with it by association.

This is where I am a bit weary. Recognise and be aware of history, and give these people all the praise in the world. But I'd be weary of embracing it as part of your own identity merely through accident of birth.

That's a very good point. Maybe pride was the wrong word to use. It's more that I respect the revolutionary history here. That I like our city, and the people in it. I don't make the history part of my identity cause of that. I relate to it, but I don't take credit for it. I merely give the praise, where it's due. To the workers and revolutionaries of our past. While trying to fight for a better future.

[Devrim]

Why bother at all. The point about international football today is not whether you support your national team anymore, but whether international football is even worth bothering with at all. The point to international football is...well actually what is the point? It is just not very good.

When I was a child, back in the days when there was one club football match live on TV a season, the World Cup was something to really look forward to. It was a festival of football in a time when it was something that was usually inaccessible. Nowadays you could watch football all day on TV if you so wanted. It was also the only chance in four years to see fabled players from South America, who though everyone had of, nobody had seen. Now these players are on TV every week, and playing in your own national league, particularly if you live in England or Spain.

This of course has an effect on the quality. The World Cup was once the top level of the sport. It is not any longer. The European Champions League is far superior in this respect. Once a good club team would have had a few players from the national team, and perhaps one or two at most from another country. Today at all of the really big clubs you would struggle to find a single first team player, and probably at most of them a second string player who is not a full international. The quality of the clubs today is so much better than the national teams. In the meantime, FIFA has diluted the quality of the World Cup by constantly expanding it. At one point this gave people the opportunity to see players that they had never seen before. Today, these players are on TV every week, or on view at a football stadium near you. The fact is the World Cup is rubbish. The overwhelming majority of the teams in it would struggle to get through the Champions League group stage.

So the real point is not whether you will support your own country, but whether you will bother at all. As for myself, I might make the effort to watch the final if I can be bothered, but hopefully I will be spending the rest of the tornement on the beach looking forward to when the real football starts again in August.

Devrim

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

I hate sports anyway...

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

I think so, but I hate / don't get football so I'm porbably biased :)

[Igor]

it can foster nationalism but it isn't necessarily a bad thing

i support finland in ice hockey but like it's not because it's the finnish team, i don't give a shit about finland in sports most of the time but i sorta grew up supporting finland in hockey and its "my team" in a way that my local football teams are. if someone thinks this makes me a nationalist something idk ok

[GiantMonkeyMan]

There's no harm in celebrating the success (or commiserating the failures) of a team you feel an association for due to where you were born. As marxists we can understand and express our distaste at the commodification of sport and it's use as a part of the bourgeois propaganda but still enjoy aspects of it (in the same way I can feel distaste for a Hollywood film but still get two hours of relatively enjoyable time-wasting). Boycotting international football won't change its structural inconsistencies.

[Queen Mab]

Why bother at all. The point about international football today is not whether you support your national team anymore, but whether international football is even worth bothering with at all. The point to international football is...well actually what is the point? It is just not very good.

I completely agree. Club football is so superior nowadays it's not even funny. The international breaks are like purgatory.

[Devrim]

I completely agree. Club football is so superior nowadays it's not even funny. The international breaks are like purgatory.

They weren't that good in the past even, but today international friendliest are just a complete waste of time. Of course the bosses of football know it. Hence Platini's plans to breath new life back into it, which will obviously end in failure.

Even back in the seventies though I can remember my mum always complaining about the international breaks because there was no football on the radio to listen to while she did her ironing. Doing the ironing today would almost be preferable to watching international football.

Devrim

[Rosa Partizan]

Maybe I'm reactionary about this, but yeah, as BIAZED, I will cheer for Bosnia. Of course, they aroused my interest because that's my birth country. But on the other side, I find their sporting development remarkable. So many times, they failed to qualify for bigger tournaments really, really closely, but never gave up on themselves and grew enormously as a team. Yeah, I know, maybe that's also the case with other teams, but I don't know as much about them as about the Bosnian team. I will also cheer for Italy as long as they don't play against Bosnia. I've been liking them for over 13 years now, and this is somehow out of nostalgia reasons, I don't feel conntected to Italy at all. And of course, home and origin are very arbitrary and nothing to be proud of. I'd never ever wave a Bosnian flag or paint myself with the flag's colors, I find this highly pathetic. But I know this means a lot to the people there, sports is like the only thing that can connect them somehow. I was glad to see that Bosnian Serbs cheered for the Bosnian team, some sign of togetherness that politicians never achieved to create. Still, it feels somehow reactionary to cheer for any country, but, yeah, I never claimed I'm super duper progressive :frog:

[ComradeOm]

Why bother at all. The point about international football today is not whether you support your national team anymore, but whether international football is even worth bothering with at all. The point to international football is...well actually what is the point? It is just not very good.1) The reality that international football has been superseded in class by club football does not mean that the former is automatically crap. Now instead of having one great tournament to watch, we now have two. That's hardly a disaster.

I can understand how for an older generation there was something magical about seeing elite football in technicolour (and that that joy has been lost) but this doesn't mean that national sides have gotten significantly worse in the meantime. The exoticism may have gone but the football remains. And knock-out football is always to be savoured.

2) National football is still different. Not only is it a collection of the players you know under a different banner but national styles remain more diverse than those of the elite end of club football. This is less marked than it used to be (when Argentina could rock up with three at the back and baffle everybody) but clear differences in footballing culture still exist. Spain, Germany, Argentina, Brazil (to name the four favourites) will go into the World Cup with substantially different styles of play; something that doesn't happen in the CL, unless Barca or a Mourinho team are playing. Witness the biennial deconstruction of the English 4-4-2.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Even though I fucking hate my country of origin, in a way, but I always root for Russia. Whether it be in the Olympics, footy tourneys, or whatever just as you said, because I'm from there, it shaped me, etc. I don't think there's anything nationalist about it considering again, it's not out of patriotic fervor but miserable acknowledgement and sports.

A 'yeah it's a shithole but it's MY shithole and it's the X sports tournament' mentality is what I'm getting at.

[Bala Perdida]

For what it's worth, I also supported Mexico in both Olympics. Actually I supported any Latin American country. I don't know why, I guess growing up Hispanic in the U.S. shaped me.
On a related note I support any and all countries against the U.S. in national sports.
Also I'm guessing it's okay to wear the jersey's mentioned in the earlier posts as long as I bring myself to do so. The Colombia one is of Falcao, and I like him so it'll be easier wearing that one even though I was brought up Mexican.
Although I was thrilled when Mexico won the gold metal for football.

[motion denied]

I always support the flashiest teams... That usually excludes Brazil, Italy, Switzerland (worst of all) and the like.

I always end up supporting Germany.

[PhoenixAsh]

Instead of premier league and shit like that we should have a "two teams enter/ one team leaves" kind of competition...

[Igor]

Instead of premier league and shit like that we should have a "two teams enter/ one team leaves" kind of competition...welcome to the thunder dome

[Rosa Partizan]

I always end up supporting Germany.

nahhh, stop that, dude! :rolleyes:
I can't stand them, the players, the fans, just everything.

[motion denied]

nahhh, stop that, dude! :rolleyes:
I can't stand them, the players, the fans, just everything.

They may be hateful, but their football is nice to watch.

Interestingly, Bundesliga is unbearable.

[Geiseric]

Obviously the world cup is a clusterfuck of nationalism, human rights abuses, and child prostitution. Way to legitimize those things.

[The Intransigent Faction]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/13/world/americas/hundreds-of-brazilians-protest-outside-world-cup-stadiumin-sao-paulo.html?smid=fb-nytimes&WT.z_sma=WO_HOB_20140612&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1388552400000&bicmet=1420088400000&_r=3


“Brazilians should protest at the ballot box, not at this time,” said Ulisses Augusto, 60, a retired salesman. “I just want Brazil to win the Cup in order to silence these clowns who are protesting.”

:rolleyes:

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

DISCLAIMER: Oh my god I'm an idiot lol. I thought this was the World Cup thread. That's embarrassing. I'll leave my comment anyway.

Why they excluding North Korea, huh? Dear Leader didn't do anything wrong :lol:

Anyway it's absurd human rights abuses. Militarized police, water rations, demolishing homes, etc etc. The worst thing about it is that it's SO fucking easy to turn on that tv and check it out. But that supports what they're doing. But it's still not active support because for godsakes, you're just turning on a tv, it's just sports! Terrible situation indeed.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

I have no country. I simply support the team that plays the best during the match that I am watching. Although there will be cases where I want to see England play just to laugh at their ineptness, like tonight.

[Geiseric]

DISCLAIMER: Oh my god I'm an idiot lol. I thought this was the World Cup thread. That's embarrassing. I'll leave my comment anyway.

Why they excluding North Korea, huh? Dear Leader didn't do anything wrong :lol:

Anyway it's absurd human rights abuses. Militarized police, water rations, demolishing homes, etc etc. The worst thing about it is that it's SO fucking easy to turn on that tv and check it out. But that supports what they're doing. But it's still not active support because for godsakes, you're just turning on a tv, it's just sports! Terrible situation indeed.

How could you distinguish watching the main event from the proceeding build up which was dependent on those things?

[Orange Juche]

Oh yeah, and as for "standing for the anthem". The only reason why I stand, is so I don't get hassled by any jackasses around me. I just hum The Internationale, or twiddle my thumbs.

As an American, when I go to sports events I play a game (with whomever I'm with) called "Where's Marine Todd?" during the anthem. I try and see if I can find a stranger practically straining not to blow a blood vessel holding their arm so steadfast in salute to the flag during the anthem. And occasionally, there are people like that. I find people like that silly as hell.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

In the case of sport, it is down to your own individual attitude.

no it isn't. football culture (at least here in the uk) brings out the most reactionary elements of society and individuals' attitudes are largely shaped by the culture that surrounds them. i dunno why its so bad in football but it is and this is nothing against the sport itself. i stay out of it nowadays though. was into it before, back when i was a sexist, homophobic, xenophobic bigot but once overcoming those aspects of social-disorder, found nothing in football beyond the sport itself which is tainted by the reactionary football culture.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

also, i find it hard to celebrate a spectacle which is operating on the shady backdrop of a gigantic child-sex industry and a country in socioeconomic crisis. fuck that. to me, it amounts to the same as gawping at the royal family on tv while they parade around in whatever carefully orchastrated weapon of mass distraction has been chosen to keep the masses stupid and docile.

[KobeB]

I support England for me national team just for the basic fact that I'm from there. I do support other teams if they get put out of a competition for example. But the concept of it being nationalist is really bothering me and the world cup is coming up so anyone saying "No Jake, it's not, come on England!" will be thanked.

Just read over the Thread question. 1 and 1 makes 2.
But it is ment in a positive way, to be proud of one's nations football team.

[RedAnarchist]

I supported England at first, but it was made easier by the fact that many of the players were from the team I support. Of course, England are generally shit, and so I've been enjoying the football and choosing teams to root for in any match I watch, although I do want to see Costa Rica do well.

During the group stage, there were enough England flags around to drown half the country in red and white, there was even "for sale" signs on houses that had the English flag as a background with "come on England" written on them. There's actually still a few England flags around, although that might be because people are away on holiday or something.

[hatzel]

I simply support the team that plays the best during the match that I am watching.

FECKING GLORY HUNTER!!! :mad:

:grin:

Anyway, far worse than cheering for your (or any other) national football team is making a big deal of cheering against your (or any other) national football team, as if it means something or is a good idea. Example: 'I'm gonna be cheering for Belgium on Tuesday because I just want to say FUCK YOU, USA, I WANT YOU TO LOOOOOSE!!!' Particularly if this is followed up by 'but if we win then there will be all sorts of nationalistic sentiment so I reeeeeally want the other team to win' because that's just classic NIMBY shit, and football's far to serious a matter for such childishness...