The value of protests/rallies

[Kingfish]

I’m not entirely sure whether this belongs here or in learning but regardless how valuable is it going to/ being active in protests and rallies? At times they seem to be alright networking opportunities but outside of that it seems to be more about impotent self gratification and an opportunity to see people flog newspapers and occasionally badges.


I know that earlier Marxists placed a great deal of importance in being active and agitating however the catching up periodically with a handful of students and an odd pensioner to repeat a few chants seem to be wholly alien to the kind of agitation and activism Ive read about. On the other hand of course I realise that it is foolish to try and replicate exactly the kind of agitation that happened historically given the material conditions have changed. Currently I don’t make a point of attending rallies.


So where do you stand on this issue?

[exeexe]

Rallies can have two functions in a democratic state.
A: You show the politicians how many you are for a given cause and that, if they have democratic values, they should adjust their politics accordingly
B: You can form a black block and apply direct action as you see fit

The B option is used a lot when the nazis tries to organize a march through the streets

Then you have the awkward occupy movement, you would think its a C option but in reality its just an A

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

I think in recent years the idea / potential behind mass demos has outwayed the real impact they've had (Iraq War demos, fuck even the laughable 'Countryside' demos about the fox hunting ban).
If many tens or hundreds of thousands expressed themselves in rallies and demos on a regular basis and employed direct action where appropriate, who knows what might happen. As it is, the soft left preach to a relativelly small number of the converted, the anarchists break a few windows, kettling, arrests, all forgotten within days (and some parties post it as a success because they sold 50 papers and gained 4 more members).
So yeah, I think they could still be a viable tool but haven't been too effective in recent years.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

It can be good and rejuvenating for some, being surrounded by thousands of like-minded folks is a good feeling. I feel that the best sorts of protests are ones which challenge the capitalist hegemony. The Quebec student protests a while ago blocked main roads, banks etc in Montreal which was a direct attack on the economy. When the Oakland general strike march blocked the docks is another example. I feel that instead of assembling 50,000 trade unionists for a few tired speeches, it'd be more effective to assemble 10,000 trade unionists willing to block main roads and cause chaos.

[Kaoxic]

The revvolution is not going to come to you in your chair.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

It's like with the No to Austerity demo in London on 21/06, wouldn't have minded going to that as it's been ages since I've been on a demo of any kind and it's during my week off...but at the same time I know it will follow the same predictable routes and have the same elements as any other Stop the War or Save Our NHS type UNITE and the rest of the usual suspects demo, so it feels pointless.
(also would mean abandoning wife to the kids for a day and I'd feel bad :crying:)

[The Idler]

Rallies aren't as futile as street protests, as you can actually make a short case rather than chant slogans.
More direct action orientated street actions are good for police databases although black blocers have to be arrested to identify them and log their details.
Other than that, street protests are a harmless way to let off a bit of steam (hence why its called kettling) especially for younger people to show how 'militant' or 'active' they are. The barricades mentality especially lends itself to shouting at 'nazis'. A hardcore minority live and breathe demos, but if demos represented support and supporters cast a vote instead, real change would be more of a reality.
As for whether earlier Marxists did what modern 'socialists' do to agitate, I doubt it.

[Hit The North]

A message from The Idler: WORKERS OF THE WORLD - STAY IN YOUR HOMES!

And kettling is the name of the police tactic to contain protest - if you actually attended one, you'd know.

Imagine a world without protest. It makes me shudder, but it is utopia for The Idler.

[bropasaran]

Check out this mini lecture, it mentions an interesting proposition as to why protest/ rallies could be important:

3-son3EJTrU

[Ele'ill]

I’m not entirely sure whether this belongs here or in learning but regardless how valuable is it going to/ being active in protests and rallies? At times they seem to be alright networking opportunities but outside of that it seems to be more about impotent self gratification and an opportunity to see people flog newspapers and occasionally badges.It really depends on what kind of strategy you think will work. If you are down with mass movements, quantitative recruitment/enlisting, paper sales, I think reform becomes a part of this too, the ballot, alternative electoral politics, building the party, listening to boring repetitive speeches or table conversation about traditional stuff, traditional reenactment etc.. you can make contacts and give out your email address so you can get thousands of BREAKING NEWS spam messages about stuff and maybe add your signature to some pieces of paper that will save the entire planet from CORPORATE TAKE OVER. This is probably the extent of the networking at rallies. There is sometimes a more radical presence at rallies but it is usually a meet-up between folks who already know one another. I don't go to rallies or stay for very long if I do go and I usually feel the same way about protests and permitted marches.



I know that earlier Marxists placed a great deal of importance in being active and agitating however the catching up periodically with a handful of students and an odd pensioner to repeat a few chants seem to be wholly alien to the kind of agitation and activism Ive read about. On the other hand of course I realise that it is foolish to try and replicate exactly the kind of agitation that happened historically given the material conditions have changed. Currently I don’t make a point of attending rallies.As an example, some street demos that have happened on short notice, and spontaneous marches or actions, that happened after specific instances of police violence were imo a good idea and attempt. If there is an event or ongoing situation that offers the opportunity to escalate I think that is possibly a good thing it isn't always though. This doesn't have to equate to recreating popular-smash or anything. I thought the ILWU rallies were boring, more interesting than most because they were directly tied to action within a volatile situation, but more interesting was listening to family and friends of workers and folks from the general area and what they thought, that wasn't presented in public speech format.

[BIXX]

If I'm really honest, I don't think most rallies and protests are that helpful. I generally go because my friends are going and I think I'll have a better time than I do. Honestly though I generally get bored quickly despite managing to convince myself that I'll have a good time at them before hand.

I find certain other events/praxis more suitable.

ETA: I'm not against other people going if they have a good time.

[Kingfish]

It can be good and rejuvenating for some, being surrounded by thousands of like-minded folks is a good feeling. I feel that the best sorts of protests are ones which challenge the capitalist hegemony. The Quebec student protests a while ago blocked main roads, banks etc in Montreal which was a direct attack on the economy. When the Oakland general strike march blocked the docks is another example. I feel that instead of assembling 50,000 trade unionists for a few tired speeches, it'd be more effective to assemble 10,000 trade unionists willing to block main roads and cause chaos.


As an example, some street demos that have happened on short notice, and spontaneous marches or actions, that happened after specific instances of police violence were imo a good idea and attempt. If there is an event or ongoing situation that offers the opportunity to escalate I think that is possibly a good thing it isn't always though. This doesn't have to equate to recreating popular-smash or anything. I thought the ILWU rallies were boring, more interesting than most because they were directly tied to action within a volatile situation, but more interesting was listening to family and friends of workers and folks from the general area and what they thought, that wasn't presented in public speech format.


I get those kind of rallies and action but what about when the best your city can produce is 200 at best with most of the speeches/action being done by the same handful of individuals I find the effect can be the opposite and rather draining. This is magnified when you live in smaller cities which lack the numbers and culture of revolt that you can find in certain places and larger cities.



The revvolution is not going to come to you in your chair.




A message from The Idler: WORKERS OF THE WORLD - STAY IN YOUR HOMES!

Imagine a world without protest


This I know but for the time and energy involved turning up to rallies seems like a waste of time. A world without protest would indeed be a terrible thing but so would a world were protest was primarily carried out in limp rallies which seem to do nothing but legitimise the current system by showing how “free” we are.


@EchoShock

What are these other events/praxis that you find valuable?

[Kaoxic]

Being a revolutionary isn't meant to be fun. Some people gave their life for the revolution you know??

[The Idler]

A message from The Idler: WORKERS OF THE WORLD - STAY IN YOUR HOMES!

And kettling is the name of the police tactic to contain protest - if you actually attended one, you'd know.

Imagine a world without protest. It makes me shudder, but it is utopia for The Idler.
And this misrepresentation is what happens when I criticise the efficacy of street protest? Where has anyone talked of a world without protest? Or even one without street protest? One crackdown on street protest in Britain was when antifascists bungled themselves into being banned in September 2009.

[motion denied]

Where do I stand? I stand with the working class. If they (or better we) are marching for better work/life conditions, I'll show up and march alongside in solidarity.

Rallies and marches doesn't need to be about storming the Winter Palace, you know.

But then again, there are always some groups who try to hijack the movement.

[ruth]

Rallies and marches can be effective as part of a wider strategy. But we need to be clear what we hope to achieve with them.

They can also be useful as part of a consciousness raising of those involved. I see that outcome on the thousands of women who attend the Million Women Rise March in LOndon, against male violence. It is one of the few marches I have attended, where there are a lot of new women to the struggle attending, and actually listening to the speeches.

But marches and rallies are only tactics. Tactics are simply tools, and like all tools, they are only useful in certain circumstances.

[Quail]

Rallies aren't as futile as street protests, as you can actually make a short case rather than chant slogans.


I don't know what kinds of rallies you've been to, but most of the ones I've attended haven't seemed that worthwhile to me. They seem to consist either of people standing up and preaching to a small group of the converted, or of people congratulating themselves for being great antifascists while whoever marches completely unopposed.

I think with street demonstrations, how effective they are really depends on what you're trying to achieve. It's obvious that a march from A to B with a rally at the end isn't really going to do much, and I'm not convinced that smashing windows, etc., is going to do much either (other than as an outlet for anger I guess). But a street demo with a well-timed, well-planned bit of direct action could be pretty effective.

[The Idler]

I don't know what kinds of rallies you've been to, but most of the ones I've attended haven't seemed that worthwhile to me. They seem to consist either of people standing up and preaching to a small group of the converted, or of people congratulating themselves for being great antifascists while whoever marches completely unopposed.

I think with street demonstrations, how effective they are really depends on what you're trying to achieve. It's obvious that a march from A to B with a rally at the end isn't really going to do much, and I'm not convinced that smashing windows, etc., is going to do much either (other than as an outlet for anger I guess). But a street demo with a well-timed, well-planned bit of direct action could be pretty effective.
Rallies 'not as futile as' street demonstrations, means both are futile, but one is less so.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Rallies 'not as futile as' street demonstrations, means both are futile, but one is less so.

I don't think it's particularly intelligent to dismiss an entire method of protest simply out of personal opinion.

I would say that rallies and protests both can be useful, and can be useless. If I were to go today to downing street, get naked and write in permanent marker 'no to capitalism' on my chest, that would be an entirely useless street demonstration.

However, if one is protesting, for example, against police brutality, and another is protesting against cuts in wages, and another is attempting to stop a fascist march, then streets protests can be a useful tactic as part of a broader strategy to unite disparate working class elements. This is probably where I see street action being most useful - as a tangible way to unite physically in one place discrete elements of the working class. After all, in the event of a general strike being used in a revolutionary period to shut down and overthrow the ruling class and their repressive organs, it would be necessary for people to physically - as well as politically - unite. Street action can do this. Putting an 'x' in a box cannot do this; it is passivity.

[Hit The North]

I would say that rallies and protests both can be useful, and can be useless. If I were to go today to downing street, get naked and write in permanent marker 'no to capitalism' on my chest, that would be an entirely useless street demonstration.


Yes, but you should definitely do it. And take selfies :grin:

What comes over in The Idler's remarks is a preference for neat and tidy, small scale affairs like a 'ickle rally, rather than a demonstration involving thousands of people which might, you know, get a bit messy.

[The Idler]

Yes, but you should definitely do it. And take selfies :grin:

What comes over in The Idler's remarks is a preference for neat and tidy, small scale affairs like a 'ickle rally, rather than a demonstration involving thousands of people which might, you know, get a bit messy.
Like the student protests in 2010?

[Hit The North]

Like the student protests in 2010?

If you like.

[The Idler]

If you like.
perhaps you could give an example of what you are talking about when you say 'get a bit messy'?

[Hit The North]

^ Social disorder. Violent confrontation with the police. Attacks on private property. Sit-downs and occupations of public spaces.

That kind of thing.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Like the student protests in 2010?

You can't really discredit an entire tactic because the tactic was used once as part of one failed strategy that was actually sectoral- rather than class-based anyway.

[The Idler]

You can't really discredit an entire tactic because the tactic was used once as part of one failed strategy that was actually sectoral- rather than class-based anyway.
I was just mentioning it as a recent example of a street demonstration users might be familiar to discuss the efficacy of the tactics of. Hit the North has given some clues as to what they think might be effective tactics in respect of street demonstrations. It would be interesting to draw this out a bit more for further evaluation by other users. Even I'm a bit tired of reading my own posts today, I'm sure other users are too. Also to preemptively stop users, without anything new to add, going back to what might loosely be termed 'street demonstrations or activity' in 1848, 1871, 1905 or 1917.