whats your oppinion about the situation in the ukraine

[gayatheistcommunist]

hi
i dont really know what i think about the ukraine crisis (i know that the west is hypcritical) so i would like to see you oppinions on this issue

[Soviet solider]

I don't know I mean they are a former ally of Russia maybe if they got to decide with out governmental influence

[tachosomoza]

Both sides will fuck the workers of Ukraine.

[RedWorker]

It's simply a fight between EU+USA and Russia. Ukraine was under Russia's power and then EU+USA took it so Russia now is trying to take it back. The people are being used as a vehicle to execute EU+USA and Russia's bourgeois class' will.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

There's genuine reasons for working class people in the Ukraine to either want to join the EU or become closer to Russia. For example, EU laws could improve working conditions and see a rise in wages and on the other hand pensioners in the Crimea found their pensions near doubling once they had joined Russia due to it raising to the level that Russia put their pensions. The working class has been hit by all these crumbs thrown at them, as well as the poison of nationalism, in order to try and get them to swing one way or the other.

However, fundamentally the conflict has been sparked by the capitalists of Russia and the capitalists of the EU countries trying to ensure that they can exploit both the resources and the labour of the region to greater effect in order to prop up their own profits. People in the Ukraine have legitimate frustrations but, without working class organisations with clear programmes and demands, they've been pitted against each other as pawns in an imperialist conflict. Workers throughout Europe, the Ukraine and Russia should be standing together to demand the end of imperialist intervention, both economic and military. 'Should' doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen and there's a lot of confusion and frustration that means ultimately the working class suffers whilst one group of the capitalist class out-competes another.

[Red Commissar]

People's opinions on this aren't uniform. You can read some of the threads about the Ukraine issue here that've been ongoing

http://www.revleft.com/vb/crisis-ukraine-t187412/index.html
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=187764
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=186722
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=187583
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=187310
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=185505

This is going from most recent to oldest. The last thread was the megathread back when this began as protests against Yanukovych to the current conflicts.

[Dagoth Ur]

Kiev is ruled by fascists. Just like siding with America in WW2 was correct, siding with Russia (exclusively in the context of exterminating fascist rats) is correct.

That said, I can't wait to get to hate on Russia again.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Kiev is ruled by fascists. Just like siding with America in WW2 was correct, siding with Russia (exclusively in the context of exterminating fascist rats) is correct.

That said, I can't wait to get to hate on Russia again.

Support in any degree for imperialist countries is incredibly anti-communist and is a betrayal of the cause of the working class. Communists don't support imperialist countries invading other countries for any reason.

[Dagoth Ur]

We don't "support" imperialists, we support their actions when they are objectively on the side of the workers (as America was when it fought Nazis and as Russia is today when it fights fascists). Tactical support of a non-imperialist action by an Imperialist is vastly different from what the soc-dem nationalists did in WW1 where they supported their own countries' imperial ventures.

[Fourth Internationalist]

We don't "support" imperialists, we support their actions when they are objectively on the side of the workers (as America was when it fought Nazis and as Russia is today when it fights fascists). Tactical support of a non-imperialist action by an Imperialist is vastly different from what the soc-dem nationalists did in WW1 where they supported their own countries' imperial ventures.

An imperialist power, such as the U.S.A. or Russia, invading and controlling foreign land by military force is not a "non-imperialist action." Supporting them in those cases is no more principled than what the chauvinist social democrats supported in World War I. You're fooling yourself if you honestly think that the U.S.A. or Russia, or any other imperialist power for that matter, have ever invaded a country in order to fight "on the side of the workers."

[Dagoth Ur]

America invaded Germany to oust the Nazis. This was not an imperialist venture by any stretch of the imagination. Their continued presence after the war, however, clearly was. Russia is accidentally on the side of the global proletariat in this case.

[Fourth Internationalist]

America invaded Germany to oust the Nazis. This was not an imperialist venture by any stretch of the imagination. Their continued presence after the war, however, clearly was. Russia is accidentally on the side of the global proletariat in this case.

America only got involved in World War II because Japan, allied with Germany, threatened American imperialist ventures in the Pacific. World War II was an inter-imperialist war where each side was a threat to the other side's imperialist ventures. The Allies' actions after the war was the inevitable result of the victory over the Axis Powers in inter-imperialiat war.

Russia invaded Crimea after the pro-Russian government fell. A new, Russian-free Ukraine was a threat to the interests of Russian imperialism which benefitted from having such a large influence in Ukraine. The Russians, in a desperate attempt to keep some sort of control in the region, took over Crimea.

In both these cases, the actions of these imperialist countries were taken only to defend their own imperialist interests; it had nothing to do with siding with the working class.

[Dagoth Ur]

We attacked Germany over Pacific interests? Sure that make sense. :laugh:

Also Crimea left because fascists took over Kiev. Big surprise we have a trot supporter of fascists here.

[o well this is ok I guess]

We attacked Germany over Pacific interests? Sure that make sense. :laugh: not taking a side here, but this is seriously weak, bruh.
What he said was that the US attacked Germany because it was a Japanese ally. Ergo, one cannot start a war with one without damaging relations with the other (which, in this case, involved a declaration of war). That's the claim that you have to refute.

[Fourth Internationalist]

We attacked Germany over Pacific interests? Sure that make sense. :laugh:

It is quite telling that you identify with the American imperialists, as shown by your use of the term "we" when talking about the United States. You openly support them, so it's not a surprise.

The war was not just over imperialist interests in the Pacific but also in the rest of the world with each side's allies. The original attack by Japan on the United States, however, specifically was about the Pacific. Germany declared war on the United States after the United States declared war on Japan after Japan attacked the United States. By that, German imperialists were also now a threat to the American imperialists.


Also Crimea left because fascists took over Kiev. Big surprise we have a trot supporter of fascists here.

My opposition to Russian imperialism in Crimea does not mean I support Ukrainian fascists. My view is this (http://lrp-cofi.org/statements/ukraine_031814.html). Workers' socialist revolution is the answer; imperialist intervention is not! It's not a big surprise to me that we have a Marcyite supporting Russian imperialism.

[Dagoth Ur]

Where is this worker's socialist revolution you support? It is pretty obvious that there isn't one and that you are ignoring the conditions of Ukrainian workers and how they would all be hurt by the victory of the Kiev rats (who are American sponsored agents of imperialism).

Tell me more about my open support for america. :lol:



@o well this is ok I guess: What would Germany have done if we'd just gone to war with Japan? Most likely nothing because they were hoping that we'd be too tied up with the Japanese to go to Europe. Thankfully FDR was smart enough to see through this gambit and chose to knock out fascists in Europe first as they were much stronger. The idea that we attacked Germany simply because they were a Japanese ally makes no sense at all.

[o well this is ok I guess]

o well this is ok I guess: What would Germany have done if we'd just gone to war with Japan? Most likely nothing because they were hoping that we'd be too tied up with the Japanese to go to Europe. Thankfully FDR was smart enough to see through this gambit and chose to knock out fascists in Europe first as they were much stronger. The idea that we attacked Germany simply because they were a Japanese ally makes no sense at all. alliances of this sort aren't a one-way street. By declaring itself an ally of Japan, Japan therefore expects aid of some sort from Germany. By declaring itself an ally of Great Britain and the rest, they all come to expect some sort of activity against their main enemy (Germany). In for a penny, in for a pound.
Could you support the assertion that the western front was a greater ordeal for the Americans than the Pacific Campaign?

[Fourth Internationalist]

Where is this worker's socialist revolution you support? It is pretty obvious that there isn't one and that you are ignoring the conditions of Ukrainian workers and how they would all be hurt by the victory of the Kiev rats (who are American sponsored agents of imperialism).

The phrase means that we need to fight in current anti-imperialist and anti-fascist struggles while pointing to the need for socialist revolution to actually defeat the imperialists and the fascists. Neither of those two are going to be ridden of within capitalism. Socialist revolution is the answer we need to point to even if there is not currently a revolution occuring. We don't place our hopes in a sort of "lesser evil" imperialist; we place it in the proletarians of the world! The point is to build the working class vanguard party, which is necessary for the socialist revolution. There is no immediate answer to the problem of fascists and imperialists, as much as we all may like. But we advocate socialist revolution always because it is our job as communists to speak what is, that socialist revolution is the only true and everlasting solution!

Edit: Why is it that you can see, correctly, how the new government is ultimately subordinated to world imperialism, but when literal agents of Russian imperialism (Russian soldiers) invade Crimea, you can't help but defend them?


Tell me more about my open support for america. :lol:

You are already well aware of your support for imperialism in World War II and in the Ukrainian situation. The only thing is that you fail to see it as imperialism.

[MarcusJuniusBrutus]

Not much of an opinion. Honestly, I don't know a whole lot about eastern European modern history. I do know that NATO's and the EU's interest in Ukraine made the Russian govt. people feel a bit nervous. Don't forget that the whole purpose of NATO was to contain the Soviet Union and its satellite states. On the other hand, Russia under Putin really seems like the aggressor here. Superficially, it seems like 1968 all over again with Soviet tanks in Prague.

The one thing I feel strongly about is that the USA especially need to stay out of this.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

We attacked Germany over Pacific interests? Sure that make sense. :laugh:
Really? You identify with the US state as "we"?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Ukraine is a tug of war between US/EU imperialism and Russian imperialism.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Where is this worker's socialist revolution you support? It is pretty obvious that there isn't one and that you are ignoring the conditions of Ukrainian workers and how they would all be hurt by the victory of the Kiev rats (who are American sponsored agents of imperialism).

What about the "hurt" the workers would feel by a win of Russian imperialism and being under the boot of Putin and the Russian ruling class?


Tell me more about my open support for america. :lol:

Maybe not your support for America, but your support for Russian imperialism. You claim that, as I agree, The United States has imperialist claim in the Ukriane. I agree, the US "Pivot to the Pacific" is a sign of expanding US imperialism that way, but that doesn't mean that Russian Imperialism won't touch East. That is why Putin is going into the Crimea, etc. You may not support American Imperialism in the region (backing the white-power fascists, etc.) but it sounds like you certainly support Russian intervention aka imperialism in the region.




Most likely nothing because they were hoping that we'd be too tied up with the Japanese to go to Europe.

Bullshit. Germany declared war on the US right after the US declared war on Japan. Please provide support for this argument. EDIT: You may be thinking of the Zimmerman Telegraph in WWI where it was a move by Germany that they hoped would keep the US out of the European war.



The idea that we attacked Germany simply because they were a Japanese ally makes no sense at all.

You're right. Germany declared war on the US, which is why we attacked.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

We attacked Germany over Pacific interests? Sure that make sense. :laugh:

Also Crimea left because fascists took over Kiev. Big surprise we have a trot supporter of fascists here.

The United States military entered World War 2, as comrade Fourth Internationalist said, over imperial possessions that were "stolen" by the Japanese. The US Military entered the European theater in the spring of 1943 for one simple reason: the rescue of European capital (and by that extension, it would be fair to say, any meaningful global capitalism).

By Spring 1943, the heroic Red Army and the whole communist partisan movements of Europe, had effectively beaten Nazi Germany. Operation Saturn was launched in December of 1942 and kicked the Fascist forces out of the city of Stalingrad. By Spring 1943, the Red Army had already liberated most of Russia from occupation and brought the fighting deep into the Ukraine.

Stalin wanted and the Red Army looked bound to make its way to Paris. Had Stalin not had any illusions as you seem to still display about bourgeois States' inherent treachery, he would not have drawn in more german divisions to the Eastern Front in January 1944 to help the western Allies who were being pushed back by Hitler's France offensive launched in December of '43.

[gayatheistcommunist]

thank you for all the reactions

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

What about Ukranian nationalists trying to make Jews have to officially register for the state and such? I'm sorry but objectively Putin is right on the money.

[Anarcho-Crackhead]

whats your oppinion about the situation in the ukraine
First of all it's Ukraine not The Ukraine.

[Geiseric]

I'm not sure that Russian imperialism is the main thing that caused this conflict. Especially seeing as the entire country is falling apart anyways. Obviously there are Russian interests in Ukraine, but the Crimea was given to Ukraine at a point when the entire economy was state planned anyways. The US has invested over 5 billion to the Ukrainian opposition which is the strongest bastion of neoliberalism in the region. The referendum of people living in Crimea clearly shows that they don't wish to be part of Ukraine which is turning into a mad max situation.

It will not calm down until US interests are defeated. NATO needs to fuck off from eastern Europe once and for all. These fascists are going as far as burning down union halls of Russian workers.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I don't care who does it, I want to see Putin get his ass kicked by someone. He is a pig. And those assholes with their St. Georges ribbons, that assaulted members of Pussy Riot need to be found and meet their fate at the end of a rope.

[Dagoth Ur]

Pussy Riot is the worst type of bourgeoisie "radicals". Not surprising you support them. Prolly FEMEN too. :lol: Oh and your statement is exactly why emotions are not a viable political outlook.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Pussy Riot is the worst type of bourgeoisie "radicals".
So that makes it acceptable for misogynist reactionaries to assault them?

[Dagoth Ur]

Of course not. But Pussy Riot is purposefully inciting these people, then running to the western press to help them in their chauvinist message against all non-western societies. They cannot be supported anymore than the "Cossacks" who attack them.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Of course not. But Pussy Riot is purposefully inciting these people
"Those women were asking for it." Really?

[Dagoth Ur]

Provocation is a real thing. They were asking for it because they had a point to make by getting it. Don't try to equate my statements with rape apologia. That is totally fucking unacceptable.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Provocation is a real thing. They were asking for it because they had a point to make by getting it. Don't try to equate my statements with rape apologia. That is totally fucking unacceptable.
I was thinking more of abusers who say "look what you made me do".

[Dagoth Ur]

I don't give a shit what the dumbasses who fell for Pussy Riot's act think. They played the part they were meant to play like morons.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I don't give a shit what the dumbasses who fell for Pussy Riot's act think. They played the part they were meant to play like morons.

Pussy Riot or the members thereof also spent months in Prison for the actions. Having spent time in both Russian and American jails/prisons I can tell you I would much rather be incarcerated here than I would back home. Say what you like about them but they've done a lot more than most bringing to light various that new to be addressed, that are and have been ignored, and chances are will probably continue to be ignored. Idk why you're so against them other than "they're mainstream, not true believers."

I also want to clarify my last post, I don't like or support Putin or Russia however I am very concerned in regards to Ukranian fascism/nationalism an anti-semitism.

[Geiseric]

Way to completely derail this thread.

[DOOM]

Kiev is ruled by fascists. Just like siding with America in WW2 was correct, siding with Russia (exclusively in the context of exterminating fascist rats) is correct.

That said, I can't wait to get to hate on Russia again.

What? Do you have any proof for this? The number of Svoboda members in parliament fell from 37 to 36, didn't it?

[erupt]

Basically, no one ever gives credit to working class soldiers from WWII unless they're Red Army soldiers or Communist partisans.

Whether or not class-consciousness was attained, US, UK, French (for a few months), Australian, Canadian, South African, and other Allied soldiers fought and defeated fascism, just like pre-Eastern Bloc partisan battalions and the Soviet and Chinese Red Armies.

They all deserve the utmost respect for fighting, and in most cases volunteering, to defeat Hitlerite fascism, Mussolinian fascism, or Japanese "fascism from above", as some scholars call it, no matter why they did it.

How many Western soldiers came from families like the Du Ponts, Rockefellers, Carnegies, etc.? The vast majority were working class, through and through. I highly doubt any Western soldiers said, "I have to go fight fascism, so I can preserve Western hegemony and capital." Their upper echelon, on the other hand...

Sorry if this post came across like a rant, but I think winning World War II (Allied soldiers, period) is the greatest international working class victory. Once again, though, I may be against the status-quo so let's see the aftermath.

[Dagoth Ur]

What? Do you have any proof for this? The number of Svoboda members in parliament fell from 37 to 36, didn't it?
Nobody cares about the Ukrainian parliament. Right Sector has been given official status as the "National Guard". If you don't understand the point that is using known fascists as a death squad against anyone who doesn't kowtow to Kiev. Odessa bro.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Provocation is a real thing. They were asking for it because they had a point to make by getting it. Don't try to equate my statements with rape apologia. That is totally fucking unacceptable.

I'm sure I was asking for every black eye and fat swollen lip that my ex did to me, right? I've been told I was "provoking" him (though I still don't know how)

Fact is the members of Pussy Riot were attacked by these nationalist dudes because they made statements criticizing Putin for how fucked up the conditions in the penal system are and they spoke out about Putin being an anti-queer bigot.

And yes I am pro-femen. I particularly am proud of how they crashed Front National's party in France. But I suppose you are going to defend front national, right?
O|O

But hey, if someone stands against the USA they must have some sort of divine truth even if they are the ones being cheered on by evangelical fundamentalists and varying rightwing extremists, right? Because Putin is soooooo kool!:rolleyes: You know we should obviously support a homophobe with no respect for humyn rights because he opposes the USA. You know its not like there are black triangles and pink triangles in history to show where such attitudes can go, right?
Homophobia, sexism, transphobia and racism are okay when they are done by an enemy of the USA right? It's not like Putin doesn't give a fuck when neo-nazis kidnap people in his country, right? Or when they behead two of them on camera, right? It is isn't like the government of Russia had a pitifully apathetic response.

Oh I'll bet that is hard to remember being drowned under the crying shitstorm of whiney cries of "America are fucking with poor little Vlad Putin" :crying: of the answer coalition and the PSL. Look I even shed some big tears for you and your Putin-loving bootlickers.

Putin is a pig and a bigot and a nationalist asshole. Which I mean I get the nationalist thing, ya dig, like I used to be a chicana power nationalist so no judgement from me. However, I grew out of it and Putin is an old man who seems pretty set on his nationalism.

[Dagoth Ur]

I'm sure I was asking for every black eye and fat swollen lip that my ex did to me, right? I've been told I was "provoking" him (though I still don't know how)
Right this is about you is it? Okay did you say shut that would piss your dad off and then when he did something have a snarky liberal op-ed ready and prepared for the WSJ? Oh you didn't and so this story isn't comparable to what I'm talking about at all? Great.


Fact is the members of Pussy Riot were attacked by these nationalist dudes because they made statements criticizing Putin for how fucked up the conditions in the penal system are and they spoke out about Putin being an anti-queer bigot.
Yeah it had nothing to do with being fucking around in Churches, screaming at old ladies, or performing about how everyone who is in Russia is a backwards moron for not bowing to the greatness of western culture.


And yes I am pro-femen. I particularly am proud of how they crashed Front National's party in France. But I suppose you are going to defend front national, right?
O|O
Hahaha. As a socialist feminist I am appalled by FEMEN and their idea that tits somehow are revolutionary. FEMEN is a false front of patriarchy.


But hey, if someone stands against the USA they must have some sort of divine truth even if they are the ones being cheered on by evangelical fundamentalists and varying rightwing extremists, right? Because Putin is soooooo kool!:rolleyes: You know we should obviously support a homophobe with no respect for humyn rights because he opposes the USA. You know its not like there are black triangles and pink triangles in history to show where such attitudes can go, right?
Human rights are a bullshit western imperialist concept only applied to nations that the West doesn't like. Good job playing along with our capitalist overlords.


Homophobia, sexism, transphobia and racism are okay when they are done by an enemy of the USA right? It's not like Putin doesn't give a fuck when neo-nazis kidnap people in his country, right? Or when they behead two of them on camera, right? It is isn't like the government of Russia had a pitifully apathetic response.
Again this is why emotion isn't a viable polical framework and why you have to resort to strawmen, oh wait I mean strawmyn.


Oh I'll bet that is hard to remember being drowned under the crying shitstorm of whiney cries of "America are fucking with poor little Vlad Putin" :crying: of the answer coalition and the PSL. Look I even shed some big tears for you and your Putin-loving bootlickers.
Okay that's cool?


Putin is a pig and a bigot and a nationalist asshole. Which I mean I get the nationalist thing, ya dig, like I used to be a chicana power nationalist so no judgement from me. However, I grew out of it and Putin is an old man who seems pretty set on his nationalism.
lol Putin is a neoliberal who plays nationalist for the local audience. Good job falling for it. Also good job being so distracted by your anti-Russian liberal sources that you ended up on the side of US imperialism. Just like your vaunted Pussy Riot, fake to the hilt western-shills till you die.

[Hrafn]

Dagoth Ur, since when is there a conflict between being a nationalist and being a neoliberal?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Right this is about you is it? Okay did you say shut that would piss your dad off and then when he did something have a snarky liberal op-ed ready and prepared for the WSJ? Oh you didn't and so this story isn't comparable to what I'm talking about at all? Great.

I wasn't referring to my dad that time. I was referring to my ex.



Yeah it had nothing to do with being fucking around in Churches, screaming at old ladies, or performing about how everyone who is in Russia is a backwards moron for not bowing to the greatness of western culture.

Because everyone needs to respect their gods and their masters, right?


Hahaha. As a socialist feminist I am appalled by FEMEN and their idea that tits somehow are revolutionary. FEMEN is a false front of patriarchy.

Modesty standards are soooo feminist :rolleyes:
Puritanical fuckface

Human rights are a bullshit western imperialist concept only applied to nations that the West doesn't like. Good job playing along with our capitalist overlords.
Well except by my standards some western countries including the USA are guilty of humyn rights violations.


Again this is why emotion isn't a viable polical framework and why you have to resort to strawmen, oh wait I mean strawmyn.

Manifestos are so *yawn* boring and bland.



lol Putin is a neoliberal who plays nationalist for the local audience. Good job falling for it. Also good job being so distracted by your anti-Russian liberal sources that you ended up on the side of US imperialism. Just like your vaunted Pussy Riot, fake to the hilt western-shills till you die.

I'm not some liberal statist, so you can stop crying liberal at everything that doesn't agree with you. Also, it's not like Pussy Riot hasn't come out against "western" governments as well but you solely focus on their opposition to non "western" governments just like you focus on my opposition to non "western" governments". Some of us are against all government, all corporation, all religion and all hierarchy.

[toeg]

"whats your oppinion about the situation in the Ukraine"

Learn to spell!!

I don't mean this as an "I'm smarter than you," smack in the face. I mean this as a, "We need to sound better than the 'hey, jethro, what'd ya'll think of them thar you-crain-ee-ans thang?' crowd" Please wordsmith and autocorrect yourself. I feel the Left has intelligence on its side. Logic and science prove time and again that we are right. We are smarter than this.

[Dagoth Ur]

And some of us aren't idealists.


Dagoth Ur, since when is there a conflict between being a nationalist and being a neoliberal?
Haute bourgeoisie are internationalists. Nationalism is a front for imperial ambitions for a neoliberal.

[Hrafn]

Haute bourgeoisie are internationalists. Nationalism is a front for imperial ambitions for a neoliberal.

You seem to have some very strange ideas about what nationalism is, just as you have about everything else.

[Dagoth Ur]

Nothing I've said is strange. Maybe you just don't know what you're talking about. I'll give you that it may be strangely put, i do drugs, but the ideas within are fairly simple and commonplace.

I'll give you a chance to explain. What is strange about my views on nationalism?

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Nothing I've said is strange. Maybe you just don't know what you're talking about. I'll give you that it may be strangely put, i do drugs, but the ideas within are fairly simple and commonplace.

I'll give you a chance to explain. What is strange about my views on nationalism?

"What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly"

To exist is to be strange, even if not through your eyes, you are strange. But it's okay, join the club of strange people, we call ourselves humanity.

[Dagoth Ur]

I am indeed a "strange" person. My position on nationalism, however, is not strange at all and is in line with the majority of the ICM. Calling it strange seems like a backhanded attempt to diminish the reputation of my opinions.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I am indeed a "strange" person. My position on nationalism, however, is not strange at all and is in line with the majority of the ICM. Calling it strange seems like a backhanded attempt to diminish the reputation of my opinions.

As far as I understand through your fancy way of of describing it, I don't really disagree with your definition of nationalism. I don't know what the fuck words like "haute" mean. You use fancy words a lot sometimes, I'll admit, I wonder what language you are speaking. But yes as far as I can read (in spite of your fancy words) I agree with your definition. However, because of your fancy words I can't know for sure.

[Dagoth Ur]

lol it's French, it means big (ie the super-wealthy transnational bourgeoisie who control the gross majority of the MoP) as opposed to petite or small. . I'm too used to dealing with Marxists I guess and use a lot of terms from Marxist lit.

If you ever have a question about what I meant I don't mind explaining in whatever format you would like. :)

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

lol it's French, it means big (ie the super-wealthy transnational bourgeoisie who control the gross majority of the MoP) as opposed to petite or small. . I'm too used to dealing with Marxists I guess and use a lot of terms from Marxist lit.

If you ever have a question about what I meant I don't mind explaining in whatever format you would like. :)

What is an MoP?

[Dagoth Ur]

Means of Production, that is the kind of property that generates wealth.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Means of Production, that is the kind of property that generates wealth.

Thankiez

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Human rights are a bullshit western imperialist concept only applied to nations that the West doesn't like. Good job playing along with our capitalist overlords.
Russia is as capitalist as it gets. People like you with your pro-Russia crap are taking the side of capitalism.

[Tim Cornelis]

Human rights are a bullshit western imperialist concept only applied to nations that the West doesn't like. Good job playing along with our capitalist overlords.

Human rights are a liberal concept, but are not exclusively applied to countries 'the West' doesn't like. Israel is frequently called out for its human rights violations by human rights groups. The Netherlands is often criticised for its treatment of undocumented migrants and even once for not allowing a third gender option. People here often argue that, for instance, Amnesty International is a pawn of the West, but this cannot be squared with the truth:


Amnesty reports disproportionately on relatively more democratic and open countries,[58] arguing that its intention is not to produce a range of reports which statistically represents the world's human rights abuses, but rather to apply the pressure of public opinion to encourage improvements. The demonstration effect of the behaviour of both key Western governments and major non-Western states is an important factor: as one former Amnesty Secretary-General pointed out, "for many countries and a large number of people, the United States is a model," and according to one Amnesty manager, "large countries influence small countries."[7] In addition, with the end of the Cold War, Amnesty felt that a greater emphasis on human rights in the North was needed to improve its credibility with its Southern critics by demonstrating its willingness to report on human rights issues in a truly global manner.[7]

Rank Country #press releases % Total
1 United States 136 4.24
2 Israel (inc. West Bank and Gaza Strip) 128 3.99
3 Indonesia and East Timor 119 3.71
Turkey 119 3.71
4 People's Republic of China 115 3.58
5 Serbia and Montenegro 104 3.24
6 United Kingdom 103 3.21
7 India 85 2.65
8 USSR and Russian Federation 80 2.49
9 Rwanda 64 2.00
10 Sri Lanka 59 1.84

1 Turkey 394 3.91
2 USSR and Russian Federation 374 3.71
3 People's Republic of China 357 3.54
4 United States 349 3.46
5 Israel (inc. West Bank and Gaza Strip) 323 3.21
6 South Korea 305 3.03
7 Indonesia and East Timor 253 2.51
8 Colombia 197 1.96
9 Peru 192 1.91
10 India 178 1.77
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty_International#Country_focus

By extension of human rights being liberal they are "bullshit" but that does not mean they can be tactically useful. This kind of infantile anti-Western attitude is quite revealing.

But then again, you are a supporter of the WWP, so it stands to reason you're a bit nuts.

[SensibleLuxemburgist]

The only side I would support is the Left Opposition in Ukraine who acknowledge the Russian chauvinism being pitted against the EU-US backed Ukrainian nationalism as destructive to the interests of the Ukrainian people. They openly condemn both sides and are sticking to their socialist interests in the face of overwhelming reactionary forces.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Not in favour of either side (EU cheerleaders / nationalists or the pro-Russian Putin lovers). Neither side has the interests of Ukraine's working class in mind, they both want power backed by either of the old Cold War teams - neither of which are worthy of support or solidarity given their track records, world outlook and the fact that they are both imperialistic and capitalist.

[Gary]

That's very true and good to hear. Has anyone else noticed a steady increase in the amount of so called communists that are in support of one capitalist country or another, just because the USA has allies on the other side?

[victorcast]

There is large American national minority in Ukraine. American protestants live there with centuries, oppressed by Russian orthodox Christians. Now USA rises up to protect their compatriots and to deliver freedom from the nearest NATO base.

[GerrardWinstanley]

Comrades. The situation is grave. Our Maidan Revolution is being betrayed before our very eyes after Oleh Tyahnybok managed to pass himself off so convincingly (http://romuloadvocate.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/2ez1m3k.jpg) as an ally to our cause. But we mustn't give in to disillusion and despair. That would be letting the Stalinists and Russian oppressors (http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/survey/so/2014/new043014a.htm) win.

The Maidan freedom fighters need our solidarity now more than ever. The time has finally come for all of us to join the Right Sector and move it to the Left.

[exeexe]

Our Maidan Revolution is being betrayed before our very eyes

The Maidan freedom fighters need our solidarity now more than ever.
The Maidan revolution was never our revolution to begin with. It was the nazis who controlled it so no one got betrayed.

The Maidan freedom fighters are nazis. No need to call for solidarity action on them.


The time has finally come for all of us to join the Right SectorEh no? Are you some kind of reactionary?

http://www.infowars.com/bbc-now-admits-armed-nazis-led-revolution-in-kiev-ukraine/

[Црвена]

I would be more inclined to side with Russia (or with anyone against the US) but Putin is as reactionary as any US Republican. Both governments are imperialist hypocrites and neither actually gives a shit about fighting fascism or helping the workers, they just want more power for themselves - as with all oppressors. So I just think that neither side is going to benefit the masses of Ukraine and they really need a socialist revolution.