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View Full Version : Response to "Why I'll Never Apologize for My White Privilage" article in Time



tachosomoza
6th May 2014, 20:11
https://medium.com/p/12a3018d5abc



Tal. Hey bro.
I want to talk to you for a minute.
I read your article, ‘Why I’ll Never Apologize For My White Male Privilege (http://time.com/85933/why-ill-never-apologize-for-my-white-male-privilege/)’. First off, congrats on landing an article on Time. That’s huge.
And I get it, dude. You’re annoyed with the ‘check your privilege’ line. Hey, I am too. I think it’s overused, and it’s basically turned into a meme at this point.
I read your piece. You’re Jewish. Your family, or at least your family a couple generations ago, had it pretty damn rough. And your dad worked his ass off so that you could have the opportunities that he didn’t. That’s great.
But, I want to talk about this line right here:

It was [my grandparents’] privilege to come to a country that grants equal protection under the law to its citizens, that cares not about religion or race, but the content of your character.This is where you messed up, bro.
This country actually does care about your race. A lot.
You brought up some of the horrors of the Holocaust. That’s a pretty heavy card to play off the bat, but it’s not going to work on me.
I forgot to tell you: I’m black. And I bet you can already guess where I’m going with this. You want to tell me about the systematic extermination of six million? I see that and raise you to ten million (http://www.walkingbutterfly.com/2010/12/22/when-you-kill-ten-million-africans-you-arent-called-hitler/). You want to talk about a few years of forced labor? Let’s try for a few hundred. You seem to be able to trace your family’s history back pretty far. That’s awesome. I can’t, because they didn’t really keep records for property like that back then.
I’m sure that if you wanted, you could come up with some ways that somewhere in history, Jewish people had it rougher than black people. Or maybe even now. And we could go back and forth about this, endlessly.
But realistically, in the court of general opinion on historical victimhood, you’re not going to win. I will. Black people always do.
But really, is this a game that you want to win? Would you like to be at the bottom rung of the social ladder? Is pity what you want?
Probably not. And right there — that annoyed feeling that you probably had when I asked if you wanted people to be sorry for you — that’s the same feeling that a lot of people probably have when you accuse them of coming up with ‘imaginary institutions’.
It’s not imaginary, bro. It’s real.
It’s good that you’ve put effort into understanding your past. But we also need to understand everyone’s present.
What I’m trying to get at here is that bringing up various ways that your ancestors’ lives sucked isn’t a good defense for racism.
I’m not saying that you’re racist (but it’s okay if you are). I’m saying that you are, probably unwittingly, defending the racism that exists in society.
But, let’s stop talking about the past.

Tal, have you ever had a gun pointed at you?
I have, but only by police. The most recent time was when I was driving home and my car broke down, so I walked up to a highway police station for help. As I knocked on the door, two officers came up from behind me out of the bushes, guns drawn, and shouted at me to freeze. It turns out they thought I was trying to rob them. That wouldn’t have happened if I was white.
I bet you worry about your grades, or how you’re going to finish that last paper before the deadline. All college students deal with that. But you’ve probably never had to worry about whether or not you might die at a routine traffic stop. White people don’t have to deal with that. Because you don’t fit the ‘profile’ of a criminal.
That’s part of what people mean when they talk about ‘privilege’.
The ‘equal protection under the law’ you mentioned — it doesn’t quite work that way for people that look like me.
And again, I’m not trying to ‘win’ a comparison game here. I don’t feel sorry for myself, and I don’t want you to either. I could hit you with a ton of scenes from my life that would be hard to imagine for a dude like yourself. On the flip side, you talked a lot about your family, but I bet you’ve personally dealt with some stuff yourself that I couldn’t imagine.
But I can try to understand, which is what I also ask of you.
Tal, I am upset, but I’m not upset at you.

I want you to know that. I’m not upset at you. I’m upset at Time.
I’m upset at Time for publishing your essay. I’m upset at them for taking advantage of you.
I’m a graduate student, Tal, which means I sometimes teach college classes. Next year, I’ll be teaching a writing course. If you’d handed that essay in to me, you’d get, maybe, a C. Your claims just don’t hold water. You’re good at arguing, but not good at thinking (yet).
Your essay isn’t even particularly well written. There are grammatical and spelling errors all over the place. And that overwrought first paragraph, full of bizarre metaphors and SAT vocabulary, is pretty typical of a kid that still thinks that big words make you sound smarter. (Protip: this only works on dumb people.)
But you seem like a bright kid. I’m pretty sure that with a bit more life experience, some patient friends, and some guidance from a dedicated teacher or two, you’ll start to figure things out.
That’s why I’m so upset that Time would let you make a fool out of yourself on the Internet. It’s precisely because you’re such a smart kid. Because in a couple of years, you’re going to look back and feel horribly embarrassed.
I can’t understand why Time would give a kid that hasn’t even decided on his major, that can’t even use a spellcheck, and that can’t formulate a coherent argument, a national platform.
Actually, no. Tal, I think I know why Time did this. I think somebody over there wanted an article that would stir things up, and put the ‘privilege’-shouters in their place. They had a frankly racist agenda, but nobody had the guts to put their name on something so asinine. So somebody found your piece on the Princeton Tory (http://theprincetontory.com/main/checking-my-privilege-character-as-the-basis-of-privilege/), and scooped it up.
They needed a front. Someone with some credibility. You’re not perfect, but you’re a pretty good fit. You’re young, you’re at an Ivy League, and you’ve got the whole historical victim/rags to riches/American Dream backstory thing going on. Trust me, if some black or Asian or more interestingly ethnic kid had offered to write a similar article, you would have been dropped like a bad habit, for reasons we’ve already discussed. But they took what they could get.
So, Time, you’re not fooling anyone. And that’s really cowardly of you to use a kid who can’t even drink yet to do your dirty work.
But back to you, though, Tal.

Or more specifically, back to us.
You said that you won’t apologize for your privilege. That’s fine, man. I don’t think anyone actually wants you to apologize for anything. Really, all we can ask of you, especially at this early stage in your development of thinking about the world, is that you give it some thought. It’s hard, I know. If it was easy, all the bad stuff we have today — racism, sexism, homophobia, wars, all that — would be gone. But it’s not easy. These are hard problems.
I said earlier that it’s okay if you’re racist. It is. As long as you’re working at it, as long as you’re trying your best to listen, and to understand, and to not be racist, or sexist, or whatever, that’s all anyone can ask. It’s a hard battle, man. I’m racist and sexist too, but I’m doing my best not to be.
I’ll be honest, man. I don’t have an easy solution for you. But I do know that shutting down and rejecting what your friends are saying isn’t going to help, and really, it’s not an option. Your friends aren’t asking for pity, they’re asking you to understand them and work with them.
One last thing.

I can tell that you read a lot. I know you’re probably going to be busy hanging out and discovering life this summer, but I want to recommend a book. It’s called The Fire Next Time (http://www.amazon.com/Fire-Next-Time-James-Baldwin/dp/067974472X), by a really smart dude named James Baldwin. It’s short, but heavy. Read it slowly. I think you’ll like it.
I know it’s rough being a college student, so if funds are tight, hit me up and I’ll be happy to mail you a copy. I just landed a pretty lucrative fellowship, so I’m in a position of relative financial privilege.
And if you ever want to talk, my twitter is @dexdigi (http://twitter.com/dexdigi).
Have a good summer, Tal.

Bad Grrrl Agro
7th May 2014, 16:50
I saw this article about that dudebro doucher (http://www.salon.com/2014/05/04/ill_never_apologize_for_my_white_privilege_guy_is_ basically_most_of_white_america/) on my Facebook newsfeed. I literally shouted "wtf dude? go hide on your fancy campus and shut the fuck up!" He is an idiot. Why are so many educated white boys such chumps? I will never understand...

QueerVanguard
7th May 2014, 18:18
I saw this article about that dudebro doucher (http://www.salon.com/2014/05/04/ill_never_apologize_for_my_white_privilege_guy_is_ basically_most_of_white_america/) on my Facebook newsfeed. I literally shouted "wtf dude? go hide on your fancy campus and shut the fuck up!" He is an idiot. Why are so many educated white boys such chumps? I will never understand...

Because its in their class interest to be. Sympathizing with POCs isn't going to do anything to increase their privilege and that's what they're most concerned with in life, make no mistake about it.

tachosomoza
7th May 2014, 18:34
Because its in their class interest to be. Sympathizing with POCs isn't going to do anything to increase their privilege and that's what they're most concerned with in life, make no mistake about it.

Even many proletarian white males will willingly shoot themselves in the foot if they think it'll hurt POC or women, it's not just the bourgeois in training. A large percentage of working class white men vote Republican (the more visibly hostile bourgeois party).

QueerVanguard
7th May 2014, 18:41
Even many proletarian white males will willingly shoot themselves in the foot if they think it'll hurt POC or women, it's not just the bourgeois in training. A large percentage of working class white men vote Republican (the more visibly hostile bourgeois party).

I know and in the case of white proletarians they are interested in maintaining their white privilege too because even though being a worker sucks, since they're white the white ruling class throws them some more crumbs and they are more interested in those crumbs than class solidarity with POCs. White workers are a labor aristocracy. But Bad Grrrrl was talking about "educated white males" which 9 times out of 10 means bourgeois or petit bourgeois in class terms.

Tim Cornelis
7th May 2014, 18:50
The mindset displayed by Rand Paul and this bloke is attributable to the 'just world phenomenon':

The just-world phenomenon is a term referring to people's tendency to believe that the world is just and that people get what they deserve. Because people want to believe that the world is fair, they will look for ways to explain or rationalize away injustice - often by blaming the victim.

Those with this belief tend to think that when bad things happen to people, it is because these individuals are bad people or have done something to deserve their misfortune. Conversely, this belief also leads people to think that when good things happen to people it is because those individuals are good and deserving of their happy fortune.
http://psychology.about.com/od/jindex/f/just-world-phenomenon.htm


I know and in the case of white proletarians they are interested in maintaining their white privilege too because even though being a worker sucks, since they're white the white ruling class throws them some more crumbs and they are more interested in those crumbs than class solidarity with POCs. White workers are a labor aristocracy. But Bad Grrrrl was talking about "educated white males" which 9 times out of 10 means bourgeois or petit bourgeois in class terms.

Agreed, except this:

>White workers are a labor aristocracy

You cannot infer from a racial category the class position of workers. While European workers are undoubtedly overrepresented in the 'labour aristocracy', there are also plenty of European workers who are lower on the income scale than the African, Arab, or Latino workers.

tachosomoza
7th May 2014, 19:08
Agreed, except this:

>White workers are a labor aristocracy

You cannot infer from a racial category the class position of workers. While European workers are undoubtedly overrepresented in the 'labour aristocracy', there are also plenty of European workers who are lower on the income scale than the African, Arab, or Latino workers.

There's plenty, yes, but it's not the rule. In the United States, the bourgeois value white workers, specifically white male workers, more than African, Arab or Latino workers, and as a result they receive better jobs, better pay, and better opportunities than workers of color or women. A white worker with less education or a criminal record is employed faster than a female or worker of color with a spotless criminal record and a university education.

Tim Cornelis
7th May 2014, 19:22
There's plenty, yes, but it's not the rule. In the United States, the bourgeois value white workers, specifically white male workers, more than African, Arab or Latino workers, and as a result they receive better jobs, better pay, and better opportunities than workers of color or women. A white worker with less education or a criminal record is employed faster than a female or worker of color with a spotless criminal record and a university education.

>it's not the rule.
I know, I said European workers are overrepresented amongst the labour aristocracy, and thus underrepresented in the lowest income categories.

Rosa Partizan
7th May 2014, 19:28
Wow, white cis-guys crying about that they don't want to apologize to people that in the first place never asked for an apology (just for awareness), while throwing in some ancestor stuff they whine about while asking other people not to cry about their CURRENT situation.

Makes perfect sense.

http://x2.fjcdn.com/comments/I+wonder+who+coined+that+phrase+_c8281fdf6dcd420cf e99771e8a44aba7.png

blake 3:17
7th May 2014, 20:05
I've only had guns on me by cops. But I don't get carded, because I'm white and middle aged.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/knowntopolice2013.html#

Lily Briscoe
7th May 2014, 20:16
A white worker with less education or a criminal record is employed faster than a female or worker of color with a spotless criminal record and a university education.

Is this actually the case?

tachosomoza
7th May 2014, 20:22
Yep.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/



The results of these studies were startling.*Among those with no criminal record, white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background.

Racial disparities have been documented in many contexts, but here, comparing the two job applicants side by side, we are confronted with a troubling reality: Being black in America today is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one’s chances of finding a job.

The young black men posing as job applicants in this study were bright college kids, models of discipline and hard work; and yet, even in this best case scenario, these applicants were routinely overlooked simply on the basis of the color of their skin. The results of this study suggest that black men must work at least twice as hard as equally qualified whites simply to overcome the stigma of their skin color.

blake 3:17
7th May 2014, 20:43
it`s complicated.


Finally, low-wage labor markets are increasingly supplied by workers with criminal records. Nearly a third of black men without a college degree have prison records by their mid-30s, adding to employers’ reservations about black male job applicants (Pager 2007b; Pettit and Western 2004). The high rate of incarceration makes a criminal record a newly important source of stigma that is worth studying in its own right. Moreover, we can view a criminal record as an extreme and authoritative signal of the kinds of problematic behaviors that employers ascribe to young black men. In this context, separating the effects of criminal stigma from race provides a useful benchmark for measuring racial stigma. In the first effort in this direction, Pager’s (2003) research in a Milwaukee field experiment compared racial and criminal stigma among matched pairs of job seekers. Fielding a pair of black and a pair of white job applicants (in which one member of each pair was randomly assigned a criminal record), Pager found that a black applicant with no criminal background experiences job prospects similar to those of a white felon. That blackness confers the same disadvantage as a felony conviction helps calibrate the deeply skeptical view of young black men in the eyes of Milwaukee employers.

The growing importance of soft skills, ethnic heterogeneity, and job seekers with criminal records suggest the persistence or increasing incidence of discrimination in contemporary low-wage labor markets. Whether based on statistical generalizations or inaccurate stereotypes, preconceived notions about the characteristics or desirability of black men relative to other applicant types are likely to structure the distribution of opportunity along racial lines.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2915472/

Lily Briscoe
7th May 2014, 20:59
Yep.

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/08/09/study-black-man-and-white-felon-same-chances-for-hire/

The results of these studies were startling.*Among those with no criminal record, white applicants were more than twice as likely to receive a callback relative to equally qualified black applicants. Even more troubling, whites with a felony conviction fared just as well, if not better, than a black applicant with a clean background.

Racial disparities have been documented in many contexts, but here, comparing the two job applicants side by side, we are confronted with a troubling reality: Being black in America today is just about the same as having a felony conviction in terms of one’s chances of finding a job.

The young black men posing as job applicants in this study were bright college kids, models of discipline and hard work; and yet, even in this best case scenario, these applicants were routinely overlooked simply on the basis of the color of their skin. The results of this study suggest that black men must work at least twice as hard as equally qualified whites simply to overcome the stigma of their skin color.


This is not quite what you said, though. That article is specifically dealing with black men, not "people of color" more broadly or females (and seeing as females actually comprise the majority of the workforce in America, I find it pretty unlikely that your point applies there). Also, levels of education in the study were equal:
In these experiments, which took place in Milwaukee and New York City, I hired young men to pose as job applicants, assigning them resumes with equal levels of education and experience

Obviously discrimination in employment is widespread; I am certainly not denying that. I just think it's pretty important to avoid making sloppy claims.

Bad Grrrl Agro
8th May 2014, 07:12
Even many proletarian white males will willingly shoot themselves in the foot if they think it'll hurt POC or women, it's not just the bourgeois in training. A large percentage of working class white men vote Republican (the more visibly hostile bourgeois party).

Good point, but these people have the excuse of being uneducated. I'm not college educated either, but I can see how people with out a good education can possibly be fear-mongered and duped into working hard against their interests. But aren't those educated fucks supposed to like know shit and have intellect and shit? Like wtf? So "smart" yet such idiots!

Lynx
8th May 2014, 10:26
Possible sequel: "Why I'll Never Apologize For Being A Failure"

Bad Grrrl Agro
9th May 2014, 23:39
Possible sequel: "Why I'll Never Apologize For Being A Failure"

More like 'Why I'll Never Apologize For Shitting My Pants In My Corporate Office'

Red Commissar
10th May 2014, 00:11
Time Magazine has been allowing in some really shitty articles recently. It's always been an annoying "common sense" magazine but in recent months they've really been scraping the bottom of the barrel. Then again considering that most of their readership is probably holding the mindset the author of the article had, it isn't surprising I guess. It's becoming obvious they're trying to appeal to people with an overblown persecution complex about being white.

It reminds me of a similarly themed article from last year, though in the Wall Street Journal (shocker!) when some white kid complained about how if only she was something like a muslim or a daughter of gay parents she'd've had a lot easier time trying to get into colleges of her choice and not have to try as hard as she was doing now. For some reason that mess of a blog post got her on a major newspaper. We had a thread about that here too.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/whitey-being-whitey-t180074/index.html?t=180074
http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2013/04/whenwhiteprivilegeisntenough/

blake 3:17
10th May 2014, 14:30
In all the furor over Tal Fortgang—the privileged white Princeton freshman who wrote so passionately about how he's not a privileged white guy—no one, not even the New York Times, noted that his post was made possible by a conservative group that bankrolls and grooms college kids for right-wing leadership.

http://gawker.com/conservative-money-front-is-behind-princetons-white-pr-1571826318

Thirsty Crow
10th May 2014, 14:42
White workers are a labor aristocracy.
Oh hello there, didn't chat in a while, did we?

What I take from your approach to this problem is the following:

1) Some form of third-worldism might suit you better than Marxism; unfortunately, these circles don't react to non-normative gender behavior and identities favorably, so you'll probably continue trying to pass off this crap for Marxism

2) The implicit inability to think outside the American context is amazing; connected to 1), maybe you would go full blown third-worldist if asked whether white workers in Europe are labor aristocracy as well?

3) You're really proficient at outright butchering terms and concepts; it's clear as day that the way Marxists used the notion of the labor aristocracy has nothing to do with your little wisdom I just quoted

Vladimir Innit Lenin
10th May 2014, 14:55
I know and in the case of white proletarians they are interested in maintaining their white privilege too because even though being a worker sucks, since they're white the white ruling class throws them some more crumbs and they are more interested in those crumbs than class solidarity with POCs. White workers are a labor aristocracy. But Bad Grrrrl was talking about "educated white males" which 9 times out of 10 means bourgeois or petit bourgeois in class terms.

You're chatting shit. Got any proof, aside from your own opinions, that 'white workers are a labor aristocracy'?

74joff
18th May 2014, 12:18
I doubt the top 10% in the world see themselves as white or any other color that would be bad for business.
If it was the case they were still specifically racist then they would not have allowed affirmative action in eeo neither would they be stronger on some eeo principles than others namely race, gender, sexual equality while playing down other forms of discrimination e.g credit rating or criminal records etc.. having said all that in regards to the article it seems a very american thing to get behind these Paul bro idiots.
I dont understand american politics too well but i cant see how much further right than neoliberalism you have to get before these type of americans will be satisfied my guess is never. The rest of the world is grappling with Austerity, US style as it is. Individualist Libertarianism couldnt be further from their minds the welfare state is good for most nations except for americans it seems.

Wuggums47
8th July 2014, 06:46
I've always had some problem with the concept of male privilege. A lot of the people who talk about it seem to believe that anyone with a Y chromosome is privileged, even when not all of them are. Gay men are treated poorly because of their perceived femininity, and I don't consider them privileged. Some people would say that I have male privilege for my chromosomes despite the fact that I'm genderqueer. I'm not a man, I'm not masculine, but some would still say I'm receiving special treatment. I most certainly am not. Also the men that do get privilege don't necessarily support that they do. They have no control in the matter. I consider myself a feminist, and I do agree that most men are treated better, but not all are.

Rosa Partizan
8th July 2014, 09:07
I've always had some problem with the concept of male privilege. A lot of the people who talk about it seem to believe that anyone with a Y chromosome is privileged, even when not all of them are. Gay men are treated poorly because of their perceived femininity, and I don't consider them privileged. Some people would say that I have male privilege for my chromosomes despite the fact that I'm genderqueer. I'm not a man, I'm not masculine, but some would still say I'm receiving special treatment. I most certainly am not. Also the men that do get privilege don't necessarily support that they do. They have no control in the matter. I consider myself a feminist, and I do agree that most men are treated better, but not all are.

sorry to say you really don't get it. White male privilege doesn't mean that everyone's gonna roll out the red carpet in front of you, it just means that many forms of discrimination and prejudice will never apply to you. These privileges are of course reduced as soon as you don't consider yourself cis male. And pls don't call yourself a feminist when you oppose abortion.

Danielle Ni Dhighe
8th July 2014, 12:04
Gay men are treated poorly because of their perceived femininity, and I don't consider them privileged.
Sadly, I've met a lot of gay men who ooze male privilege as they act or speak in misogynist ways.

Hagalaz
10th July 2014, 02:43
So since I'm a white male I'm a bad person?
I'm confused...

bcbm
10th July 2014, 05:07
So since I'm a white male I'm a bad person?
I'm confused...

not necessarily but you do benefit from being white and male.