Poll: Will there be murder in communism?

[Tim Cornelis]

Let's test this, Will there be murders in communism?
Some say murder will cease completely in communism (vote no)
Some say murder will still happen in communism (vote yes).

[tachosomoza]

Will there be mentally ill or violently angry people who would be driven to take the life of another? Of course, there always have been. Communism is a change in the fundamental basis of society and a classless, moneyless, stateless order, not a change in the fact that some human beings are wont to do horrible things like kill for no reason. There won't be any of the problems present in capitalism that would cause an otherwise normal, stable human being to kill out of desperation, like draconian drug laws or generational poverty, however.

[Sinister Intents]

I'd say murder will still occur, but hopefully to a lesser degree....

[QueerVanguard]

If you want to believe murder and rape are non-historical aspects of a fallen human nature, like the conservatives, then sure. If, however, you're a materialist and understand these unfortunate things to result from sordid social relations that are scheduled to end with Communism, vote no.

[Buzzard]

I don't think communism would be the end of murder, I mean, there are more ways a murder could happen, outside of economic incentive

[Buzzard]

Communism would probably end the drug war as well as the murder that happens due to poverty conditions, but you still have cultural, and personal differences

[Zukunftsmusik]

Is this a joke?

EDIT: I found the other thread, so I guess apparently not.

[Remus Bleys]

Communism is like this perfect utopia where everything goes exactly as planned and nothing bad could ever happen because communism is great!
In all seriousness murder would probably drastically reduce. There are various reasons for murder, though, and I don't think that a world without murder is achievable simply by communist relations. Fuck people who go on about the human condition, human nature is a nonsensical thing that is always changing - a world without murder is possible, but it is ridiculous to think that this will follow solely by communist relations.

edit:
Is this a joke?
Knowing Tim (second edit - Tim the revleft poster that is), probably not - he just wants to show everyone how super-rational he is and how he realizes communism isn't the key to everything/isnt the solution to history (this view, of course, wasn't held by a particular somebody who's birthday was yesterday).

[Sinister Intents]

Animals still kill each other for various reasons in nature. Most likely the human animal will still kill others of its kind and the other creatures occupying this fragile, blue world we call Earth.

[QueerVanguard]

Is this a joke?

No more of a joke then asking if racism, sexism, rape or nationalism will end with Communism. I happen to believe they will and I'm sure you'd agree. So why is murder some exception?

[DOOM]

No more of a joke then asking if racism, sexism, rape or nationalism will end with Communism. I happen to believe they will and I'm sure you'd agree. So why is murder some exception?

So murder is a (through using materialist methods) explainable phenomena, like capitalism or it's superstructural phenomena?

[Zukunftsmusik]

No more of a joke then asking if racism, sexism, rape or nationalism will end with Communism. I happen to believe they will and I'm sure you'd agree. So why is murder some exception?

Disregarding, of course, that sexism and nationalism are real systematic political realities, whereas "murder" isn't a category comparable to these at all. Murder happens for a lot of reasons, some murders happen as a direct or indirect effects of capital, others not. Communism won't make men angels.

[Tim Cornelis]

Knowing Tim,

Well you do not.


probably not - he just wants to show everyone how super-rational he is and how he realizes communism isn't the key to everything/isnt the solution to history (this view, of course, wasn't held by a particular somebody who's birthday was yesterday).

Eh no, I wanted to know how common the belief is that murder disappears with communism because of that discussion. But fuck you I suppose.

[tachosomoza]

No more of a joke then asking if racism, sexism, rape or nationalism will end with Communism. I happen to believe they will and I'm sure you'd agree. So why is murder some exception?

There is no nation or state in communism, so there can be no nationalism. There is no race in communism, so there can be no racism. The capitalist, bourgeois family and religion that subjugates females will be abolished, so there can be no sexism. To abolish mental illness which leads one to commit heinous acts like murder, you would have to abolish humanity. While murders that are caused by poverty or hatred of race, ethnicity, sex or nationality will not happen, murders caused by the perpetrator's mental state will still occur and will have to be dealt with.

Humanity will be free from capitalist alienation and exploitation, but it still will be humanity.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Eh no, I wanted to know how common the belief is that murder disappears with communism because of that discussion. But fuck you I suppose.

Remus' wording is a bit ambiguous, I'll admit, but I think he's speaking for your case more than anything.

[Tim Cornelis]

Remus' wording is a bit ambiguous, I'll admit, but I think he's speaking for your case more than anything.

Nah, he's become a real arrogant douche lately.

[Loony Le Fist]

Let's test this, Will there be murders in communism?


What would cause there not to be murder under communism? I could see how there might be a significant reduction, but certainly not a complete cessation.

[Thirsty Crow]

Humanity will be free from capitalist alienation and exploitation, but it still will be humanity.Eh here it is again, that ugly and reactionary human nature argument, the stuff of conservatives' (wet) dreams.

How do you not see it? Must be your Proudhonist anti-liberation idealism.

[Naroc]

Of course, murders will still be there. To say that the existence of murder amongst humanity would vanish - as soon as communism has established itself - is quite utopic .

This would require that all kinds of murder are connected or caused by the current capitalist system. But history and common sense teach us that there are (sadly) LOTS of reasons why humans bump each other off.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Eh here it is again, that ugly and reactionary human nature argument, the stuff of conservatives' (wet) dreams.

How do you not see it? Must be your Proudhonist anti-liberation idealism.

So mental illness, jealousy, and anger will cease to exist under communism?

[RedWorker]

Fuck people who go on about the human condition, human nature is a nonsensical thing that is always changing

The fact is that human nature exists with certain innate things to all humans, like natural instincts (except in a very small minority of people with a mutation or what would be classified as a "disorder" or whatever). As an example, the point people who talk about "human nature" often make is: "Communism can't work because some people are selfish by nature." The correct counter-argument is: "they won't be able to stop communism because xyz", not "there will be no selfish people". (Yes, communism will drastically reduce the number of "selfish people" yadda yadda, this is not the point.)

Your recent posts are starting to border on insane.


There is no nation or state in communism, so there can be no nationalism. There is no race in communism, so there can be no racism. The capitalist, bourgeois family and religion that subjugates females will be abolished, so there can be no sexism. To abolish mental illness which leads one to commit heinous acts like murder, you would have to abolish humanity. While murders that are caused by poverty or hatred of race, ethnicity, sex or nationality will not happen, murders caused by the perpetrator's mental state will still occur and will have to be dealt with.

And what nonsense is this? If under communism there is a white person who hates black people and as a result starts to murder them would that not be racism? What if there is a small group of people which systematically mistreats women? That is not sexism?

What if there's a group of people who want to restore capitalism and the state and go around with state flags? That is not nationalism?

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Communism isn't some static time period and form of society, it's a revolutionary abolition of the general features of our current society. So basically, there will be murder 'in communism' (whatever the hell that means) communism starts from the moment we all change our way of thinking and doing enough to modify social relations and economic functions (like redistributing goods freely) and resides if pre-existing features of society re-assert themselves. So a constant tide of revolutionary change to keep the battle lines in our favour is the overall aim.

[QueerVanguard]

There is no nation or state in communism, so there can be no nationalism. There is no race in communism, so there can be no racism. The capitalist, bourgeois family and religion that subjugates females will be abolished, so there can be no sexism. To abolish mental illness which leads one to commit heinous acts like murder, you would have to abolish humanity. While murders that are caused by poverty or hatred of race, ethnicity, sex or nationality will not happen, murders caused by the perpetrator's mental state will still occur and will have to be dealt with.

Humanity will be free from capitalist alienation and exploitation, but it still will be humanity.

So nationalism, sexism, racism, LGBTQ phobia, etc. etc. are all social constructs that Communism will end but for whatever reason rape and murder are these forces of human nature that will always be with us? Materialism ends where aggression begins, is that it? Don't you see how completely arbitrary and non-historical that is? No human nature for these things, but human nature for those. Gimme a break.

[tachosomoza]

So nationalism, sexism, racism, LGBTQ phobia, etc. etc. are all social constructs that Communism will end

Yes, communism will abolish the state, money, race, nation and other constructs.



but for whatever reason rape and murder are these forces of human nature that will always be with us?

Some people will rape and murder regardless of how society is organized. Like I said, the abolition of abhorrent behaviors as a result of mental illness requires the abolition of humanity.

I'm not naive, that's all.

[QueerVanguard]

I'm not naive, that's all.

No you just subscribe to bullshit notions of bad genes/bad brains, human nature crap. Noted.

[tachosomoza]

No you just subscribe to bullshit notions of bad genes/bad brains, human nature crap. Noted.

Do you think people like Albert Fish, Charles Panzram, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffrey Dahmer could somehow be turned away or educated from killing, torturing and eating people? Some people enjoy killing for no reason other than killing, those people will exist under socialism, communism, capitalism, feudalism, and every other organization of society and means of production.

[QueerVanguard]

Do you think people like Albert Fish, Charles Panzram, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffrey Dahmer could somehow be turned away or educated from killing, torturing and eating people?

Yes, I do because I don't subscribe to ideas of people being born defectively -- relics of theism and conservatism. There is a material cause behind every action, to quote Marx, we are solely "ensembles of social relations".

[tachosomoza]

Yes, I do because I don't subscribe to ideas of people being born defectively -- relics of theism and conservatism. There is a material cause behind every action, to quote Marx, we are solely "ensembles of social relations".

What's the material cause of someone who lives an otherwise socially normal existence abducting a 12 year old girl, raping her, setting her body on fire, and leaving her in the woods? How would people be somehow dissuaded or educated against doing so in a communist mode of production?

Again, the reality is that some people, a miniscule segment of the population, will do things like that and feel no remorse or guilt after doing so. Communism will not end the presence of those people on Earth. It's extremely naive and unrealistic to think otherwise.

[QueerVanguard]

What's the material cause of someone abducting a 12 year old girl, raping her, setting her body on fire, and leaving her in the woods? How would people be somehow dissuaded or educated against doing so in a communist mode of production?

The causes are varied. It's alienation, exploitation, racism, sexism, oppression, all the forces of which act upon individuals in varying proportions and which are revealed in equally varied ways in their individual behavior. People will be dissuaded from behaving like that in Communism because the material forces driving them to do it now will be eliminated. This is like Marxism 101 stuff right here....


Again, the reality is that some people, a miniscule segment of the population, will do things like that and feel no remorse or guilt after doing so. Communism will not end the presence of those people on Earth. It's extremely naive and unrealistic to think otherwise.

No, it's extremely conservative to believe they will. You have given no sound reason for us to accept that murder or rape are more permanent than racism or sexism, sorry.

[tachosomoza]

I wish I could be so naive and detached from reality.

Yes, the factors that will lead someone to kill out of exploitation or hatred of race, religion and other constructs will be gone. That doesn't mean that mental illness also cease to exist under communism. This is common fucking sense 101.

Schizophrenia, bipolar disorder. Two mental illnesses that can lead one to kill or maim others. Instead of denying they exist or arguing over the material conditions of serial killers and rapists, we should treat and possibly look for ways to cure them.

[Mass Grave Aesthetics]

I wish I could be so naive and detached from reality.

Yes, the factors that will lead someone to kill out of exploitation or hatred of race, religion and other constructs will be gone. That doesn't mean that mental illness also cease to exist under communism. This is common fucking sense 101.

Schizophrenia, bipolar disorder. Two mental illnesses that can lead one to kill or maim others. Instead of denying they exist or arguing over the material conditions of serial killers and rapists, we should treat and possibly look for ways to cure them.
To be able to "cure them" you have to understand where they are coming from I think. I don´t get why you insist on mental illness being such a common cause of murder. I´m sure most murders aren´t comitted by mentally ill people. There is usually a reason for why a mental illness develops in a person, other than genetics.

As for the question of the poll/OP, I really don´t know what to think. I guess time will tell.

[RedWorker]

That doesn't mean that mental illness also cease to exist under communism.

Actually, I can see the amount of cases of depression and certain other "mental disorders" very easily falling under communism.


Schizophrenia, bipolar disorder. Two mental illnesses that can lead one to kill or maim others.

That can be an offensive statement. I've personally met people with schizophrenia and they were very nice and calm.

[tachosomoza]

That can be an offensive statement. I've personally met people with schizophrenia and they were very nice and calm.

People with schizophrenia suffer from delusions and hear disembodied voices that often tell them to hurt others or themselves. Without treatment, anything can happen.

Our study of the human brain and what makes it really tick is still relatively new, hopefully advancing technology and better understanding will enable us to determine exactly what causes things like this and how to cure them, if possible.

[Comrade Strong]

Murder will always be present in society. Hopefully the extent and number of reasons for the murder will fall in communism.

[tachosomoza]

To be able to "cure them" you have to understand where they are coming from I think. I don´t get why you insist on mental illness being such a common cause of murder. I´m sure most murders aren´t comitted by mentally ill people. There is usually a reason for why a mental illness develops in a person, other than genetics.

As for the question of the poll/OP, I really don´t know what to think. I guess time will tell.

I don't think that most murders are committed by mentally ill people, my point is that Communism in and of itself won't cure mental illnesses that could lead untreated people to possibly commit murder, which means that murder will still exist.

[Sea]

If we make it legal is it still murder? :unsure:
People with schizophrenia suffer from delusions and hear disembodied voices that often tell them to hurt others or themselves. Without treatment, anything can happen.

Our study of the human brain and what makes it really tick is still relatively new, hopefully advancing technology and better understanding will enable us to determine exactly what causes things like this and how to cure them, if possible.That's about as silly as saying that people who suffer from depression feel lousy all the time.

[blake 3:17]

Glad to see peeps are realistic. Murder was the case.

Great poll! I thought results would be much more naive.

[Sea]

Glad to see peeps are realistic. Murder was the case.

Great poll! I thought results would be much more naive.There's a difference between "will there still be people killing each other" and "will there still be murder". Murder is a legal concept, and obviously the legal system that defines what murder and manslaughter, etc are would no longer exist under communism, so there will be no murder under communism.

There will (obv. I can't say for sure, but still) be people killing each other.

[Remus Bleys]

blah blah blah muh individualism muh liberty
I don't know why don't you read some fucking marx? I mean Jesus christ. Marx has a quote somewhere (that I can't be assed to find) that says something along the lines of human nature constantly changing. What humans are - what they do, what they find - is all found in the complete economic order of a particular time in a particular place. This is the combination of all modes of production and previous modes of production, the ideologies and other remnants of previous modes of thoughts, and genetic coding.
Is it human nature to want to eat? Yes, but so what? Because, do you know what isn't human nature? The way in which we satisfy (if at all!) that need/want to eat.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

There's a difference between "will there still be people killing eachother" and "will there still be murder". Murder is a legal concept, and obviously the legal system that defines what murder and manslaughter, etc are would no longer exist under communism, so there will be no murder under communism.

But comrade! Do you not know that we need a red law to guide our red courts and their red juries in the communist society? Perhaps you still cling to outdated, dogmatic conceptions stemming from rascals like Engels and Lenin - you are not acquainted with the latest Marxist-Bakuninist-Zapatist-MST thought.

[RedWorker]

I don't know why don't you read some fucking marx? I mean Jesus christ

Dude, you forgot the quotation from Marxists Internet Archive, now people are gonna think you ain't smart. :laugh:

More serious response:

1. While I'm sure Marx argued that certain actions of humans depended on economic relations or whatever, I'm sure he never doubted that human nature, which includes for example instincts like self-preservation actually exists. (that he may have said a sentence like: "human nature depends on economic relations" does not go against what I say)

2. I'm a socialist, not an ass-licker. I don't worship nor have the same views as anyone else, be that Marx or whoever. Anyone who does is not a "Marxist", because that is the opposite of being a Marxist. To take another person's view for everything is the opposite of what Marx stood for: to think, rather than accepting what someone tells you.

This is especially funny because I'm a determinist and skeptical about whether humans have "free will" and stuff like that.

[Sea]

But comrade! Do you not know that we need a red law to guide our red courts and their red juries in the communist society? Perhaps you still cling to outdated, dogmatic conceptions stemming from rascals like Engels and Lenin - you are not acquainted with the latest Marxist-Bakuninist-Zapatist-MST thought.Stalinist revisionist ghoul! You're mixing up communism and socialism! Socialism is when I'm in power, communism is what we'll achieve in 20 years!

Now if you excuse me, I have to go call up my friend and collaborator Eisenhower to ask him if he's seen my shoe.

[Tim Cornelis]

Glad to see peeps are realistic. Murder was the case.

Great poll! I thought results would be much more naive.

You're suspiciously sounding like my sock puppet


There's a difference between "will there still be people killing each other" and "will there still be murder". Murder is a legal concept, and obviously the legal system that defines what murder and manslaughter, etc are would no longer exist under communism, so there will be no murder under communism.

There will (obv. I can't say for sure, but still) be people killing each other.

I didn't approach it from this angle, and do not consider murder or homicide to be legal terms. When I googled about hunter-gatherers, the term homicide was used.


But comrade! Do you not know that we need a red law to guide our red courts and their red juries in the communist society? Perhaps you still cling to outdated, dogmatic conceptions stemming from rascals like Engels and Lenin - you are not acquainted with the latest Marxist-Bakuninist-Zapatist-MST thought.

God you're obnoxious, with your fucking strawmen all the time. Familiarise with my actual positions instead of this bullshit. So far you've not accurately described my positions ever.

[Thirsty Crow]

I'm utterly appalled at the sheer numbers of Proudhonist idealist homophobic, sexist pigs here. This can't be left to stand, this place simply needs, nay it cries out for a comprehensive purge.

And comrades, we really ought to make it a restrictable - though I'm thinking outright ban worthy - offense to dare to hold such reactionary positions that a part of the mental disorder and pathology continuum has - gasp shock and horror - genetic and physical-chemical causes among others!

This is simply inexcusable for trained dialecticians.


No you just subscribe to bullshit notions of bad genes/bad brains, human nature crap. Noted.

And while we're at it, let's commit all the gospels to flame but also create a new one, the Gospel according to Karl. The whole idea of naturalism and even the existence of something that isn't the ensemble of social relations is quite clearly reactionary.

Here's the programme for the regeneration of this community. Take it or leave it, but we all know who's gonna leave it.

[Sinister Intents]

I'm utterly appalled at the sheer numbers of Proudhonist idealist homophobic, sexist pigs here. This can't be left to stand, this place simply needs, nay it cries out for a comprehensive purge.

Specifically what? If you could PM on facebook. I'm at school and really I shouldn't be onlins

[PhoenixAsh]

...there can be only one.




Anyways. Whatever happened to the Anarcho-monarchist Trotskyist Nazbol Utopian Liberal conspiracy we had going on around here?

[Thirsty Crow]

Specifically what? If you could PM on facebook. I'm at school and really I shouldn't be onlins
I'm making fun of the tool, nothing else.



Anyways. Whatever happened to the Anarcho-monarchist Trotskyist Nazbol Utopian Liberal conspiracy we had going on around here?
Shhh, you'll receive an physical letter explaining everything in matter of minutes. We still got pigeons flying above warp1.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I don't know why don't you read some fucking marx? I mean Jesus christ. Marx has a quote somewhere (that I can't be assed to find) that says something along the lines of human nature constantly changing. What humans are - what they do, what they find - is all found in the complete economic order of a particular time in a particular place. This is the combination of all modes of production and previous modes of production, the ideologies and other remnants of previous modes of thoughts, and genetic coding.
Is it human nature to want to eat? Yes, but so what? Because, do you know what isn't human nature? The way in which we satisfy (if at all!) that need/want to eat.

I think it is in the 1844 Mans. or perhaps in the German Ideology when he discusses how man creates man.


There's a difference between "will there still be people killing each other" and "will there still be murder". Murder is a legal concept, and obviously the legal system that defines what murder and manslaughter, etc are would no longer exist under communism, so there will be no murder under communism.

There will (obv. I can't say for sure, but still) be people killing each other.

I don't think murder is just a legal concept - it's just that it is determined using courts in our society. I would define murder as killing which is not socially sanctioned as self defense, military operation and so on. That's why we can speak of "pigs murdering innocent black kids" etc and not just sound incoherent.

Also the elimination of bourgeois courts doesn't mean that communities will necessarily want to just allow killers/murderers (or whatever we want to call them) walk away without any kind of social condemnation. Hopefully that won't entail sending them to industrial dungeons to incarcerate them indefinitely in conditions which just preserve or worsen the social conditions which lead to crime and dehumanization.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think random murders would nearly disappear - in a life with no alienation as we know it, one where people in communities know and care for eachother rather than compete over scraps either in the workforce or just trying to maintain daily life. Murder for financial gain - yeah probably zero.

But murder from passion, from interpersonal disputes, from drunken revelry... why not? I think it could also be delt with in communities (assuming full communist relations are long established) in an ad hoc way (standing courts would probably not be needed, there may be some kind of regular mechanism for interpersonal conflict resolution which might include extreeme cases such as murder).

Societies with much more egalitarian relations still had some murders, but possibly a lot less, excluding times of crisis. I don't think this implies a human-nature argument, just that humans are frail and have the capacity to harm eachother and so it's not out of the range of possibilities even with most of the social causes of contemporary conflicts and depression and hatred removed.

[MarcusJuniusBrutus]

Insufficient data to answer. Most likely yes because humans can be violent for purely emotional reasons. Contrary to popular belief, history does not repeat itself. It is too contingent to be that deterministic, so as a historian I decline any invitation to predict the future.

States that have described themselves as communistic certainly had murders, including those committed by the state.

[Dagoth Ur]

lol the State can't murder. It was given the power to kill so nothing it does is murder. Don't moralize.

[RedWorker]

States that have described themselves as communistic certainly had murders, including those committed by the state.

You mean state capitalist single-party states like the Soviet Union? I fail to see any "communism" (or even "socialism") there.

[Dagoth Ur]

Soviet Union wasn't state capitalist:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/grant/1949/cliff.htm

Capitalism, in any form, requires a bourgeoisie. The Nomenklatura became wealthy by salary not by possession of the MoP. The Soviet Union was not democratic, this is a given, but that is not state capitalism.

[BIXX]

lol the State can't murder. It was given the power to kill so nothing it does is murder. Don't moralize.


I don't think calling it murder is moralizing unless it is the same when you say "so and so murdered so and so". I can see why the word "murder" carries negative moral connotations though. But again, if it's moralizing when you refer to the state doing it, then it's moralizing when you refer to the average person doing it.

Of course there will be murder or killing or whatever in communism. As long as passion exists, so will murder. As long as there are sociopaths, there will be murder. And if there were no murder it would most likely mean that there were no problems anymore, which would kill everything that makes life worth living. So I hope there will be murder under communism.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Capitalism, in any form, requires a bourgeoisie. The Nomenklatura became wealthy by salary not by possession of the MoP. The Soviet Union was not democratic, this is a given, but that is not state capitalism.
As Engels pointed out in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, "the transformation...into State-ownership...does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces."

[Doctor Hilarius]

There is no nation or state in communism, so there can be no nationalism. There is no race in communism, so there can be no racism. The capitalist, bourgeois family and religion that subjugates females will be abolished, so there can be no sexism. To abolish mental illness which leads one to commit heinous acts like murder, you would have to abolish humanity. While murders that are caused by poverty or hatred of race, ethnicity, sex or nationality will not happen, murders caused by the perpetrator's mental state will still occur and will have to be dealt with.

Humanity will be free from capitalist alienation and exploitation, but it still will be humanity.

Just to correct you on this, mentally ill people are actually not more likely to commit acts of violence compared to the general population.

[MarcusJuniusBrutus]

lol the State can't murder. It was given the power to kill so nothing it does is murder. Don't moralize.

States are artificial constructs and, therefore, can't do anything. I meant state actors, the people who believed themselves to be doing the work of the state. I'm not going to quibble about legal definitions that exist to shield the actions of members of the elite power structure. While most formalized laws do exclude state action from the definition of murder, I decline to give them that out. I also decline to accept your advice about moralizing. Evolution has equipped our instincts with a real, if inexact, set of moral norms. Killing another person without a compelling reason is morally wrong.

[ComradeYakov]

As others have noted, murder doesn't seem to be a "systematic" part of capitalism like racism or sexism. So I'm sure that murder still would/could happen, but many of its social causes would disappear so it would likely decrease.

Communism will liberate mankind from the chains of capital. The "almighty dollar" commands people to do irrational, terrible things all the time. Murder through imperialism is responsible for countless deaths, but would not occur without the capricious capitalist drive for profit.

This reminds me something I saw a while ago, not sure where. Somebody asked whether car accidents would still happen in socialism, most likely in a cynical manner if memory serves me. This was a tactic to make socialism appear utopian.

But this is not the point. Socialism isn't a global movement against car crashes. It's against an outdated, destructive system that generates much larger "crashes" than what we might see on the highway.

[Sheepy]

Not en masse, I would presume.

[Thirsty Crow]

Socialism isn't a global movement against car crashes.
But it can become one. Personally, I think that would be awesome.

[TheMask]

If humanity was perfect then there would be no need for our revoloution at all. Unfortunatly this means that regardless of soceity murder will still exist because of the flaws of the human race and every human being. Will communism bring a decrase in murder rates? Some would say so but I dont think there is any reasson to believe that it would not happe at all.

"We can save humanity from capitalism but we cant save it from itself" - Fidell Castro