turning on castro

[bubbrubb]

of the many people who fought along with castro during the revolution why is it that so many leave cuba because of him and are anti castro now. is it because they do not like how he has become the dictator is it because of communism

[Ortega]

Many of the people who fought with Castro weren't Communist, as Castro himself was not until taught by Raul and Fidel of its benefits. Therefore, when Castro declared that Cuba was a Communist Republic, many of the people who had fought by Fidel's side became angry and disillusioned, eventually leaving the country.

...That pretty much sums it all up.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 11:39 PM
Many of the people who fought with Castro weren't Communist, as Castro himself was not until taught by Raul and Fidel of its benefits. Therefore, when Castro declared that Cuba was a Communist Republic, many of the people who had fought by Fidel's side became angry and disillusioned, eventually leaving the country.

...That pretty much sums it all up.
Castro didn't do that because he turned Communist, he did it so he could ensure aid from the Soviet Union.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by LuZhiming+Jan 28 2004, 06:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LuZhiming @ Jan 28 2004, 06:55 PM)
[email protected] 28 2004, 11:39 PM
Many of the people who fought with Castro weren&#39;t Communist, as Castro himself was not until taught by Raul and Fidel of its benefits. Therefore, when Castro declared that Cuba was a Communist Republic, many of the people who had fought by Fidel&#39;s side became angry and disillusioned, eventually leaving the country.

...That pretty much sums it all up.
Castro didn&#39;t do that because he turned Communist, he did it so he could ensure aid from the Soviet Union. [/b]
That as well. But a large part of Fidel&#39;s change in ideology was due to the influences of Raul and Che&#39;s political viewpoints.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

So that would make me think that after fidel dies and raul takes over Cuba will be better under Raul&#39;s charge?

[Ortega]

Raul also happens to be a bit of a radical "Stalinist." <_<

...meaning that Cuba will undoubtedly not be better under Raul.

[Jesus Sanchez]

Well would you rather have Raul lead Cuba or a "Cuban" who just happens to have a Texan accent and make frequent month long business trips to the white house.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 12:09 AM
That as well. But a large part of Fidel&#39;s change in ideology was due to the influences of Raul and Che&#39;s political viewpoints.
Whether the matter was Cuba and Fidel&#39;s change in ideology or just Cuba&#39;s change in ideology is something to consider. And I must say, the things Raul might do in Cuba frighten me.

[Fidelbrand]

Originally posted by LuZhiming+Jan 29 2004, 07:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LuZhiming @ Jan 29 2004, 07:41 AM)
[email protected] 29 2004, 12:09 AM
That as well. But a large part of Fidel&#39;s change in ideology was due to the influences of Raul and Che&#39;s political viewpoints.
Whether the matter was Cuba and Fidel&#39;s change in ideology or just Cuba&#39;s change in ideology is something to consider. And I must say, the things Raul might do in Cuba frighten me. [/b]
In your opnion, what would be the scenario of Raul&#39;s cuba? (I know quite little about Raul :D )

[Ortega]

Originally posted by LuZhiming+Jan 29 2004, 02:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LuZhiming @ Jan 29 2004, 02:41 AM)
[email protected] 29 2004, 12:09 AM
That as well. But a large part of Fidel&#39;s change in ideology was due to the influences of Raul and Che&#39;s political viewpoints.
Whether the matter was Cuba and Fidel&#39;s change in ideology or just Cuba&#39;s change in ideology is something to consider. And I must say, the things Raul might do in Cuba frighten me. [/b]
They scare me as well. :blink:

Fidelbrand, I don&#39;t have much definitive information on Raul except for my own knowledge. I&#39;ll do some research for you now.


Well would you rather have Raul lead Cuba or a "Cuban" who just happens to have a Texan accent and make frequent month long business trips to the white house.

Preferably, I&#39;d choose Fidel. But beggars can&#39;t be choosers, so out of those two it would most certainly be Raul.

[Ortega]

Here&#39;s a little history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raul_Castro) on Raul.

A quote from http://wais.stanford.edu/Cuba/cuba_fidelra...castro9402.html (http://wais.stanford.edu/Cuba/cuba_fidelraulcastro9402.html)...


Raul is Fidel&#39;s designated successor, thus making the Castros the only remaining family dynasty in Latin America. Someone suggested Raul may establish a military dictatorship, if he survives Fidel, which he may not for bad health reasons. My independent judgment, as well as that of my coauthor of a study of the Cuban Interior Ministry, is that that is unlikely. My co-author, one of its founding members of the ministry, who worked directly with Fidel and Raul, describes Raul is a lot more "Cuban" (joking, smiling, speaking in a low voice, going on an occasional drinking binge with friends or a woman) than aristocratic Fidel. He is not as doctrinaire and stupid as he often seems to foreigners. This impression comes partly from his public subservience to Fidel. A Nicaraguan co-author of another book, who with Sandinista Defense Minister Humberto Ortega met with the Castros in 1985, reports Raul&#39;s actions during the many-hour meeting. Fidel would talk on and on without interruption until Raul would (occasionally) raise his hand. "Chief, may I be permitted to speak," he would petition, and Fidel would reply, "Please, tell me what you think, Raul." Then Raul would second what Fidel had just said. But in fact Raul is more pragmatic than Fidel, contrary to the image many hold abroad. He also has a lot less power than Fidel. Most likely if he survives Fidel he will set up a cooperative government with three or four of the current top leaders, who will subsequently make him a decoration, and go in the direction of more comprehensive Chinese-style economic reforms, thus maintaining power for themselves while somewhat improving the current dreadful economic condition of the country. Fidel has said no such reforms, and last year in a long interview with Ricardo Alarcon, this top civilian in the government today said the post-Fidel government will continue with Fidel&#39;s revolution in its present form, but that is extremely unlikely.
And this final article (http://ciponline.org/cuba/cubainthenews/newsarchives/july2000/rt071400raul.htm) which is, I think, the best source for information about Raul and his politics.

[capone]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 11:39 PM
Many of the people who fought with Castro weren&#39;t Communist, as Castro himself was not until taught by Raul and Fidel of its benefits. Therefore, when Castro declared that Cuba was a Communist Republic, many of the people who had fought by Fidel&#39;s side became angry and disillusioned, eventually leaving the country.

...That pretty much sums it all up.
This is so true i agree cuba would be the richest communist country if the usa would not have put an embargo on them fuck usa

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 06:34 PM
In your opnion, what would be the scenario of Raul&#39;s cuba? (I know quite little about Raul :D )
Sorry, I didn&#39;t notice your post until right now. I don&#39;t claim to know a lot about Raul. It&#39;s just the fact that he is labeled as more a hard-liner than Fidel, and also that he has two cronies he plans to increase in rank once he gets control. Fidel&#39;s rationality and intelligence have been keeping the Revolution alive. Similarly, Maurice Bishop was a much more rational person that the idiotic Stalinists who killed him. Somehow, I think Raul will ruin many of Castro&#39;s plans trying to make Cuba closer to Stalinism. He doesn&#39;t seem to have the rationality of Fidel, which scares me. Oh yes, and the fact that he was in the corrupt Communist Party during Batista&#39;s reign, and joined Fidel shortly before the beginning of the rebellion doesn&#39;t exactly better my view of Raul. I hope this is just paranoia on my part.

[JasonR]

in the Showtime movie "Fidel&#33;" I saw a few weeks ago it seems Che Guevara and Fidel&#39;s brother (Raul) saw eye to eye. It seems Raul and Che were much more Soviet style communist (stalinist) than Fidel, although Fidel has been labeled a Stalinist by many.

Although in the film atleast, Raul was right on many issues. For example he called for the execution of a man who resigned from his post in the guerrilla army (a Christian who fought for the revolution but hated cmommunism) because he and Che warned he would run off to Miami, but Fidel spared his life, and guess waht? He did exactly waht Che and raul said he would do.

I donno, Raul seems ok. Less homophobic and machoist than Fidel i hear.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 05:15 PM
I donno, Raul seems ok. Less homophobic and machoist than Fidel i hear.
I&#39;ve heard exactly the opposite of that, but maybe it&#39;s just me.

Yes, Raul and Che were very good friends and saw eye-to-eye on a lot of issues. Raul, overall, was still the more Stalinist authoritarian one.

[JasonR]

I don&#39;t kno much about Cuban Revolution (still learning), so I&#39;m judging completely by the movie, but it seems "Che" was more of a "trigger happy" fellow. In one scene he walks up to a soldier that surrenders and shoots him point blank. Don&#39;t if this happened.

Che seemd pretty authoritarian to me.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 05:24 PM
I don&#39;t kno much about Cuban Revolution (still learning), so I&#39;m judging completely by the movie, but it seems "Che" was more of a "trigger happy" fellow. In one scene he walks up to a soldier that surrenders and shoots him point blank. Don&#39;t if this happened.

Che seemd pretty authoritarian to me.
Che was most certainly "trigger happy," and most certainly authoritarian in his discipline.

But if you&#39;re talking about political views, Raul was, and still is quite a bit more authoritarian than Che.

[BuyOurEverything]

It seems Raul and Che were much more Soviet style communist (stalinist) than Fidel, although Fidel has been labeled a Stalinist by many.


Actually Che leaned much more to Chinese style socialism than Soviet style. However, he did respect Stalin. And you are right, Raul and Che did share very similar ideologies. Much more so than Che and Fidel. I think that as far as leadership and charisma goes, Raul (or any other succesor for that matter) will fall quite short of Fidel, and overall that will be a bad thing for Cuba. However, I think Raul could make many positive changes in Cuba.

[bad-juju]

"I donno, Raul seems ok. Less homophobic and machoist than Fidel i hear."

Haha. That&#39;s really funny.

Raul following Fidel in the "presidency?" Wow, that sound a lot more like a dynasty than a democracy.

And in response the original question, when I lived in Cuba, all of my relatives told me that Castro had many loyal followers, within his ranks, as well as among a lot of the people. But, when they saw that he really didn&#39;t want a revolution, but rather, his own country to play with, they abandoned him.

Bad Juju

[JasonR]

Youre probably a right winger bad juju. George W. Bush stole the election, does that make america a dynasty?

Raul seems to be very capable for the job, and he probably has some of the most experience with the Cuban revolution, since he was there from day one fighting for freedom from yankee imperialism.

There are many Cuban American folks here on campus that are not the stereotypical Miamite mobster, they seem to lean on the pro-Fidel side nd don&#39;t blame him for the current situation in Cuba.

Although there are some worms out there like Gloria Stefan and Celia Crus who supported the fascist state and left at an age where they couldn&#39;t even talk (stefan left Cuba at the age of 2).

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 11:24 PM
Raul following Fidel in the "presidency?" Wow, that sound a lot more like a dynasty than a democracy.
It was the decision of the National Assembly of Peoples Power.

[BuyOurEverything]

Youre probably a right winger bad juju. George W. Bush stole the election, does that make america a dynasty?


No, it makes America an extremely corrupt pseudo-democracy. A dynasty is a ruling family. I agree with bad-juju that it certainly appears to be as such, however, I also believe that Raul is probably the best possible choice for a successor though. Should they chose someone else so it will look better?


"I donno, Raul seems ok. Less homophobic and machoist than Fidel i hear."

Haha. That&#39;s really funny.

I assume you disagree with that. I don&#39;t claim to know, and I&#39;d like to see some evidence either way.


And in response the original question, when I lived in Cuba, all of my relatives told me that Castro had many loyal followers, within his ranks, as well as among a lot of the people. But, when they saw that he really didn&#39;t want a revolution, but rather, his own country to play with, they abandoned him.


How did they come to this conclusion? Also, Castro still has many loyal followers within his ranks as well as the people. And did they prefer living under Batista?

[bad-juju]

Dear Mr. Jason R:

I&#39;m not a right-winger, as you say. I probably hate Bush as much as you do, and the thought of seeing march into my country makes me sick. I&#39;m also pretty sickened by the people that surround me here in Miami. They only fight Castro because they lost their borgoise life styles. As far as I am concerned, they have the right to that, this not being a Nazi estate. I, on the other hand, care about the ones who are dying in Cuba, the ones I saw with my own eyes as a child. I care about the blood-stained walls I saw as a seven year-old in a field trip. And remember, Bush is not the only bad man in the world. You treat it as if it was a choice between Bush or Castro, and I think you are mistaken there. Some of us are in between. Cuban-Americans who support Castro never lived through what I lived through. And unless you grew up in Cuba, like I did, I suggest you don&#39;t speak about what you don&#39;t know.

And I know I can&#39;t make you understand, because I dont&#39; have a device that will allow you to see the kind of childhood I had in Cuba. I wish I did. I bet you would be on my side.

Ps. I don&#39;t have any wings.

Bad Juju.

[Ortega]

Tell us a bit more, Juju... where did you see this "blood on the walls"?

[bad-juju]

"How did they come to this conclusion? Also, Castro still has many loyal followers within his ranks as well as the people. And did they prefer living under Batista?


They came to the conclusion that Castro wanted his own country to play with because he was killing anyone who disagreed with his ideas. Camilo Cienfuegos, for instance. How come you don&#39;t hear his name as often as you hear Che&#39;s? Jose Antonio Echavarria? Frank Pais? All these men fought for the revolution, and were a threat to Castro. My father and grandfather saw these men killed. And they are not right-wingers, as you say. And they both hate Bush. Unless you say my father is lying, and then we have something else to talk about. Both my father and grandfater suported the revolution when if first started. My grandad was a captain in Castro&#39;s army. And they both told me of the attrocities that Castro commited against people who disagreed with him. They saw them with their own eyes. And the reason they were disillusioned was that, no, they didn&#39;t like to live under Batista...because, let&#39;s face it, it sucked. They wanted something better. But why should they trust a rich kid with an ego problem?

Bad Juju

[JasonR]

Tell us ahbout your childhood then, and then we can decide if it true or not.

[bad-juju]

Dear Mr. Ortega:

The blood-stained walls are found unde the dugeons of the fortress of La Cabaña. I saw them on a field trip, and the tour guide told us that it was the blood of our enemies. It took two years of therapy to make it go away.

Thank you

Bad Juju

[bad-juju]

What about my childhood do you want to know, Jason R? About the time my first-grade teacher held me back in school and beat me up with her very own pink flip flops because my grandma took me to church? Or about the time I lost an academic recognition medal for being Jewish? Or about the time I had a spinal tap done without anesthetics because there are none in Cuban hospitals? I have piles of stories.

Bad Juju

[Deniz Gezmis]

I&#39;d like to hear them all, Or atleast most of them. Please post some.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 07:08 PM
Dear Mr. Ortega:

The blood-stained walls are found unde the dugeons of the fortress of La Cabaña. I saw them on a field trip, and the tour guide told us that it was the blood of our enemies. It took two years of therapy to make it go away.

Thank you

Bad Juju
Are you sure it wasn&#39;t blood left over from Batista&#39;s time?

Both sides used La Cabaña as a fortress. I suppose it would depend on how long ago this was... any time recently it would be rather unrealistic, I know.

[TC]

Raul and Che are/where basically stalinists. Castro is basically a pragmatic revisionist Marxist. Camillo was basically a non-communist leftist.

People who fell into the later catagory felt alienated. Oh well.

[JasonR]

Atleast in Cuba you have hospitals. What do we have in the rest of the third world?

Face it , if you were in any other capitalist third world nation, and were ofa poor backround, you would&#39;ve died rather than have a spinal tap. I also find this story a bit odd, due to the fact that medicine shortages are something that has happened recently in the 90&#39;s.

Anyway, I find it a little weird that a Jewish person will go to church. I also don&#39;t see what the big deal is with you being hit in school, this happened in all countries until recently.

Cuba is a third world country. You ought to be grateful that you were born there rather than another third world capitalist country. If it wasn&#39;t for the revolution, you wouldve had nothing with batista.

[Deniz Gezmis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 12:20 AM
Anyway, I find it a little weird that a Jewish person will go to church. I also don&#39;t see what the big deal is with you being hit in school, this happened in all countries until recently.
But being hit for being Jewish? Man, You&#39;re taking the wrong fucking approach here.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 07:04 PM
Camilo Cienfuegos, for instance. How come you don&#39;t hear his name as often as you hear Che&#39;s? Jose Antonio Echavarria? Frank Pais? All these men fought for the revolution, and were a threat to Castro.
There&#39;s one thing I can completely agree with you on - particularly Camilo Cienfuegos. Camilo seems like quite a hero to me... strange that his name has dissapeared while Che, with some promotion from Fidel, has become a worldwide icon.

If you ask me, Camilo seems a whole lot more admirable than Che.

And the same goes for Frank Pais, from what I know about him. Echavarria I&#39;m not familiar with...

[TC]

Che was hot, Camillo was not, Che was a martyr, Camillo died in an accident, thats why.

Really if you think about it Che accomplished less than Raul Castro and far less than Fidel Castro, his political and military career was short and not particular significant.

Che is important primarily as a symbol, a symbol for Cuba and the Revolution. This is why you have anarchists who identify with Che even though Che was about as far from an Anarchist as you could get. They don&#39;t identify with the man, they identify with the face in the photo.

[ChaosMonkey]

Originally posted by Death+Jan 31 2004, 07:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Death @ Jan 31 2004, 07:22 PM)
[email protected] 1 2004, 12:20 AM
Anyway, I find it a little weird that a Jewish person will go to church. I also don&#39;t see what the big deal is with you being hit in school, this happened in all countries until recently.
But being hit for being Jewish? Man, You&#39;re taking the wrong fucking approach here. [/b]
Practicing Judaism is separate from actually being of Jewish descent. Many people are like Bad-juju here, in that they are Jewish but do not practice the religion. Surely you&#39;re aware of that, JasonR? People are persecuted for being Jewish regardless of their status as a practicing Jew.

That&#39;s also not to mention all the Catholics in Cuba (and over all of Latin America), again despite "ethnic" concerns like being "Jewish" or "black."

[BuyOurEverything]

About the time my first-grade teacher held me back in school and beat me up with her very own pink flip flops because my grandma took me to church?

Why? Cuba, and Castro, is not really anti-religious. That sucks that your teacher did that but I don&#39;t really know what you&#39;re getting at.


Or about the time I lost an academic recognition medal for being Jewish?

A practicing Jew? I&#39;ve never heard anyone, even the most vehement anti-Castroists mention anything about anti-semitism. How long ago was this?


Or about the time I had a spinal tap done without anesthetics because there are none in Cuban hospitals?

There are no anesthetics in Cuban hospitals? That&#39;s a ridiculous claim. I&#39;ll take your word that there was none at the perticular time of your operation at that perticular hospital, and that is most unfortunate, but I seriously doubt that this is the case everywhere in Cuba now. When was this?



There&#39;s one thing I can completely agree with you on - particularly Camilo Cienfuegos. Camilo seems like quite a hero to me... strange that his name has dissapeared while Che, with some promotion from Fidel, has become a worldwide icon.


I would disagree that his name has disappeared. From what I&#39;ve heard, he&#39;s still considered quite the hero in Cuba. Che is different though. He wasn&#39;t even Cuban and he fought for the liberation of all Latin America. Not to mention that he died leading a guerilla war, unlike Camilo.


If you ask me, Camilo seems a whole lot more admirable than Che.

How so?


Practicing Judaism is separate from actually being of Jewish descent. Many people are like Bad-juju here, in that they are Jewish but do not practice the religion. Surely you&#39;re aware of that, JasonR? People are persecuted for being Jewish regardless of their status as a practicing Jew.

Ya anti-semitism was, and still is, quite common everywhere. I&#39;ve even experienced it in Canada. And I&#39;m an atheist.


That&#39;s also not to mention all the Catholics in Cuba (and over all of Latin America), again despite "ethnic" concerns like being "Jewish" or "black."

What about them?

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 07:52 PM

If you ask me, Camilo seems a whole lot more admirable than Che.

How so?

He seemed to be a very kind-hearted man - one not afraid to give his life for his cause. He was a revolutionary, and a liberator of the people. He was a leftist, but didn&#39;t let politics interfere in his wish to liberate the peoples of Cuba.
Unfortunately, Che and Raul brought politics into the whole thing, albeit good ones. Camilo disagreed with them, but Fidel joined Che and Raul. Camilo was basically forced out of the spotlight, and pushed into a corner because of his less radical political views.
Che, by his own admission and by the admission of many others, was rather cold and calculating. Fidel had an ideological void, which was filled by Che and Raul&#39;s ideas. Camilo, meanwhile, was just a liberator, just one who cared for the welfare of the people first and foremost.

I don&#39;t know, read a little bit about him. He seems like a very admirable revolutionary and human being.

He undoubtedly does enjoy icon status in Cuba, but compared to Che his legacy amounts to absolutely nothing.

[JasonR]

I believe there is a city in Cuba named "Cienfuegos". he is very popular in Cuba.

[Ortega]

Camilo&#39;s last name came from the name of the city, not vice-versa. That city has been around since Spanish Colonial times.

[ChaosMonkey]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 07:52 PM

That&#39;s also not to mention all the Catholics in Cuba (and over all of Latin America), again despite "ethnic" concerns like being "Jewish" or "black."

What about them?
Nothing, really. Just that there are lots of them, as I said, despite their ethnic makeup. Which means it&#39;s not so far-fetched that Bad-Juju, a brilliant and lovely young lady of Jewish descent, attened a Catholic church service with her grandmother, and was therefore refused recognition from a government-run institution.

[JasonR]

Oh I see friend. I like Camilo as well as Che, but I agere with Che more politics wise (except for maybe executing dissidents) .

[BuyOurEverything]

He seemed to be a very kind-hearted man - one not afraid to give his life for his cause. He was a revolutionary, and a liberator of the people.

So was Che, as I&#39;m sure you know.


He was a leftist, but didn&#39;t let politics interfere in his wish to liberate the peoples of Cuba. Unfortunately, Che and Raul brought politics into the whole thing, albeit good ones.

Wow, that&#39;s certainly one of the stranger things I&#39;ve heard anyone say. It seems you have a very twisted view of what &#39;politics&#39; are. It&#39;s naive in the extreme to think that you can &#39;liberate&#39; a country without any politics. Leftism is all about liberation. How would you propose Fidel should have run the country without &#39;politics?&#39;


Camilo disagreed with them, but Fidel joined Che and Raul. Camilo was basically forced out of the spotlight, and pushed into a corner because of his less radical political views.


And...?


Che, by his own admission and by the admission of many others, was rather cold and calculating.

Yes, well that&#39;s neccessary in a revolution. It&#39;s either that or defeat, which is far worse.


had an ideological void, which was filled by Che and Raul&#39;s ideas.

This is true.


Camilo, meanwhile, was just a liberator, just one who cared for the welfare of the people first and foremost.

As did Che and Raul. They however, viewed leftism as the best way to protect the welfare of the people, and rightly so. I don&#39;t claim to know alot about Camilo, but if what you say is true, he was extremely naive and most likely incapable oif running a country.


I don&#39;t know, read a little bit about him. He seems like a very admirable revolutionary and human being.


I&#39;m sure he was, I don&#39;t think anyone&#39;s denying that.


He undoubtedly does enjoy icon status in Cuba, but compared to Che his legacy amounts to absolutely nothing.

True but there is a reason for this. As I said before,
Che is different though. He wasn&#39;t even Cuban and he fought for the liberation of all Latin America. Not to mention that he died leading a guerilla war, unlike Camilo.



Nothing, really. Just that there are lots of them, as I said, despite their ethnic makeup. Which means it&#39;s not so far-fetched that Bad-Juju, a brilliant and lovely young lady of Jewish descent, attened a Catholic church service with her grandmother, and was therefore refused recognition from a government-run institution.

OK, I just assumed that when he said he was Jewish, he meant he practiced Judaism. Do you have any evidence that Cuba persecuted Catholics though?


Oh I see friend. I like Camilo as well as Che, but I agere with Che more politics wise

I agree.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 08:22 PM

He was a leftist, but didn&#39;t let politics interfere in his wish to liberate the peoples of Cuba. Unfortunately, Che and Raul brought politics into the whole thing, albeit good ones.

Wow, that&#39;s certainly one of the stranger things I&#39;ve heard anyone say. It seems you have a very twisted view of what &#39;politics&#39; are. It&#39;s naive in the extreme to think that you can &#39;liberate&#39; a country without any politics. Leftism is all about liberation. How would you propose Fidel should have run the country without &#39;politics?&#39;...

...As did Che and Raul. They however, viewed leftism as the best way to protect the welfare of the people, and rightly so. I don&#39;t claim to know alot about Camilo, but if what you say is true, he was extremely naive and most likely incapable oif running a country.


But the thing is, Camilo never meant to run a country. He was but a liberator. After the revolution, he stepped aside a bit, rather than trying to become President (which was most certainly an option, a president supported by Fidel officially ran Cuba until 1970).

Fidel started off wishing only to liberate, without any political views, and he certainly succeeded. He didn&#39;t decide on his political views until after the revolution.

Freeing a country and running it are two very different things, Comrade...

[BuyOurEverything]

But the thing is, Camilo never meant to run a country. He was but a liberator. After the revolution, he stepped aside a bit, rather than trying to become President (which was most certainly an option, a president supported by Fidel officially ran Cuba until 1970).

Fidel started off wishing only to liberate, without any political views, and he certainly succeeded. He didn&#39;t decide on his political views until after the revolution.

Freeing a country and running it are two very different things, Comrade...

To &#39;liberate&#39; a country without any plans for running it will do far more harm than good. Regardless of one&#39;s good intentions, it will undoubtadly result in abject poverty and a power vacume which will be filled by the next person who can scrape together a couple guns. If that was truly Camilo&#39;s intent, I&#39;d have to say he was pretty stupid. To lead an armed insurection without ambitions to run the country oneself is one thing, and and admirable thing, but to lead an armed insurection without any plans of running the country once victory is acheived is an entirely other thing, and and incredibly stupid thing too.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2004, 08:38 PM

But the thing is, Camilo never meant to run a country. He was but a liberator. After the revolution, he stepped aside a bit, rather than trying to become President (which was most certainly an option, a president supported by Fidel officially ran Cuba until 1970).

Fidel started off wishing only to liberate, without any political views, and he certainly succeeded. He didn&#39;t decide on his political views until after the revolution.

Freeing a country and running it are two very different things, Comrade...

To &#39;liberate&#39; a country without any plans for running it will do far more harm than good. Regardless of one&#39;s good intentions, it will undoubtadly result in abject poverty and a power vacume which will be filled by the next person who can scrape together a couple guns. If that was truly Camilo&#39;s intent, I&#39;d have to say he was pretty stupid. To lead an armed insurection without ambitions to run the country oneself is one thing, and and admirable thing, but to lead an armed insurection without any plans of running the country once victory is acheived is an entirely other thing, and and incredibly stupid thing too.
Ah, probably, but keep in mind that Fidel was of the same mindset as Camilo at the beginning and during most of the Revolution. They were both leftists, but not highly political. They just wanted to liberate Cuba from Batista.

[BuyOurEverything]

Ah, probably, but keep in mind that Fidel was of the same mindset as Camilo at the beginning and during most of the Revolution. They were both leftists, but not highly political. They just wanted to liberate Cuba from Batista.

Yes, but Castro matured, did he not?

Also, I respect Che more than I do Fidel.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 12:20 AM
People who fell into the later catagory felt alienated. Oh well.
Castro was a member of the later category.

The claim that Castro killed Camilo has not an iota of proof or an implication of to it.

[bad-juju]

"Are you sure it wasn&#39;t blood left over from Batista&#39;s time?

Both sides used La Cabaña as a fortress. I suppose it would depend on how long ago this was... any time recently it would be rather unrealistic, I know."

La Cabaña is pretty old, so I&#39;m sure there is blood drying in those walls that is 200 years old. :( But this was a pretty dark stain. That&#39;s what the tour guide said. She said "the blood of our enemies" and she went to explain how this was the place were the people who stood agains the revolution were tried and killed for many years. My high school Spanish teacher was in line for those excutions. He was sent to live in Chicago at the last minute. He still cries when he talks about it. You should speak to him sometime. He told me all about it. And excutions still happen in Cuba, just like they happen here and everywhere else where there&#39;s no real freedom. It&#39;s something I remember vividly because I trusted Castro and the revolution as a little girl.

[bad-juju]

"Atleast in Cuba you have hospitals. What do we have in the rest of the third world?

Face it , if you were in any other capitalist third world nation, and were ofa poor backround, you would&#39;ve died rather than have a spinal tap. I also find this story a bit odd, due to the fact that medicine shortages are something that has happened recently in the 90&#39;s.

Anyway, I find it a little weird that a Jewish person will go to church. I also don&#39;t see what the big deal is with you being hit in school, this happened in all countries until recently.

Cuba is a third world country. You ought to be grateful that you were born there rather than another third world capitalist country. If it wasn&#39;t for the revolution, you wouldve had nothing with batista. "

Darling, I was of a poor background. Still am, as a matter of fact, as an unemployed writer/english major. Medicine shortages have been around in Cuba since the 60s. My classmate&#39;s father died of minor burns for lack of antibiotics. My father&#39;s cousin died of dehydration in a Cuba hospital in 1986. So I suppose you are right. I was lucky. That&#39;s easy to say when you haven&#39;t gone through it, though. And just because it happens in other places, that it&#39;s no excuse, especially in a place that boasts of the best health care in the world. It shouldn&#39;t happen anywhere. What kind of heartless thing to say is that? So, everyone in Cuba should have to accept pain because it&#39;s morally sound to you?

Uh...Jews go to synagogue...that&#39;s what I meant. That&#39;s not accepted in Cuba.

It is a third world country&#33; Thank you&#33; So a revolution that boast to have brought salvation to the masses from capitalism is a third world country? My father got tuberculosis when in 1956, and a black doctor cured him for the equivalent of four dollars today. His dad was abandoned him when he was a kid, and his mom, my grandma, rolled tobacco at a little factory, so they weren&#39;t exactly swimming in dough.

Ps. I want to know what you think about foreigners going to my country and getting medical treatment, free of charge, and with all the safety and advancements of an American private hospital. Even plastic surgery. Do you think Fidel Castro goes to the same hospital I went to? Have you seen the private hospital his close associates use? I have. It&#39;s shameful. It&#39;s just as bad as Bush going to Bethesda, when millions of people in his country have no medical insurance.

[bad-juju]

"QUOTE
About the time my first-grade teacher held me back in school and beat me up with her very own pink flip flops because my grandma took me to church?


Why? Cuba, and Castro, is not really anti-religious. That sucks that your teacher did that but I don&#39;t really know what you&#39;re getting at.

QUOTE
Or about the time I lost an academic recognition medal for being Jewish?


A practicing Jew? I&#39;ve never heard anyone, even the most vehement anti-Castroists mention anything about anti-semitism. How long ago was this?

QUOTE
Or about the time I had a spinal tap done without anesthetics because there are none in Cuban hospitals?


There are no anesthetics in Cuban hospitals? That&#39;s a ridiculous claim. I&#39;ll take your word that there was none at the perticular time of your operation at that perticular hospital, and that is most unfortunate, but I seriously doubt that this is the case everywhere in Cuba now. When was this?"

Castro is not anti-religious? Religion was never outlawed, but always persecuted. It was the first question they asked in the psychological profiling test we took in first grade. If you went to church, you would have to go to the school principal and be brainwashed on how stupid your family was for telling you lies. Oh, and my teacher beating me? That was part of her government-mandated school curriculum. They would show us the papers that said that children had to be discipline by "mental and physical indoctrination" in order to make them sound Cuban citizens. Teachers were expected to beat children who didn&#39;t follow the mandates of the revolution. And if you got a particularly sadistic teacher, mandates of the revolution could be a pretty wide term. Children were beaten in the name of the revolution just about every day. :( My friend Michel got his hair cut in front of the school assembly for wearing it too long. Castro&#39;s children were supposed to have short hair, and there were public announcement on tv denouncing long hair. This kid was beaten up by the school principal, and his hair was cut with a straight razor. I wish I could document all of this, because proof would be better than just words, but these are just memories. And I really don&#39;t understand this "it happens everywhere excuse." That&#39;s shameful.

Cuba has a long history of anti-simetism. Do you know about the St. Louis. http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust...st/stlouis.html (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/stlouis.html) It had nothing to do with the economy. My great-nana Sidrah was in Cuba at the time, and she told me that lots of people called her a dirty Jew when the St. Louis came to Havana. Castro was a high middle class child, and of white descent. He&#39;s a product of that society. I didn&#39;t know about the holocaust until I got here. Oh, and I lost my medal in 1988.

I had a spinal tap done because of a meningitis outbreak in elementary schools. This was 1985. I will never forget it. Four other children had it the same day, and none of them received anesthetics. And of course you wouldn&#39;t know that there has been a shortage of medicine in Cuba for a long time. The government doesn&#39;t publish that. Is that so hard to believe? C&#39;mon&#33; You live in the US&#33; ;). I have countless stories to tell you about people dying waiting for anesthetics. This message board would have to close. But I can tell you that my mother&#39;s sister had a hysterctomy because my mother bought the anesthetics here and took them to Cuba. She was lucky. Most people are not so lucky. And I know this happens everywhere in the world. I probably read about world poverty more than any person on this board. I put up with two years of snobby physics teachers so I could solve world poverty. The difference is that Castro claims there is no poverty in Cuba.


And by the way, I don&#39;t take offense at anything said in this board. If you haven&#39;t lived in Cuba, like I&#39;ve had, you can&#39;t know. And you probably will never know. Unless you kids want to take the old field trip. We can all stay at my aunts bat-infested house, eat maggot-infested rice, and I can show you the real Cuba.

Bad Juju

[bad-juju]

"It was the decision of the National Assembly of Peoples Power."

You so do not live in Cuba&#33; Do you think this works in any way like a Congress? Not that the American Congress is great shakes...I suppose they both suck. Cubans don&#39;t get to make decisions. All decisions are made by Castro. And most Cubans don&#39;t question this, because it&#39;s all they know. And because being alive is really nice. I suppose people everywhere do that. But, seriously, the National Assembly of the People&#39;s Power is just window dressing. Do you really think Cubans would vote against illegal internet access and The Beatles?

Bad Juju

[bad-juju]

"There&#39;s one thing I can completely agree with you on - particularly Camilo Cienfuegos. Camilo seems like quite a hero to me... strange that his name has dissapeared while Che, with some promotion from Fidel, has become a worldwide icon.

If you ask me, Camilo seems a whole lot more admirable than Che.

And the same goes for Frank Pais, from what I know about him. Echavarria I&#39;m not familiar with..."

Dear Mr. Ortega:

Your Camilo avatar is really cool. He was an incredibly charismatic guy. If you see and hear the Camilo tapes I saw as a child, you would know why he died in an "accident." And this is common knowledge. Not among the CIA or the American government, but among Cubans in Cuba, not in Miami, that were close to both Castro and Camilo. It was not an accident.

Jose Antonio Echevarria was a student who participated in the March 13 attack on the Presidential Palace. He&#39;s the one who took over the radio station. He was killed that same day. I have an awesome book about him. I could tell you more...but I&#39;m so damned tired&#33; Maybe, tomorrow.

Bad Juju

[Ortega]

Dear Mr. Ortega:

Your Camilo avatar is really cool. He was an incredibly charismatic guy. If you see and hear the Camilo tapes I saw as a child, you would know why he died in an "accident." And this is common knowledge. Not among the CIA or the American government, but among Cubans in Cuba, not in Miami, that were close to both Castro and Camilo. It was not an accident.

Jose Antonio Echevarria was a student who participated in the March 13 attack on the Presidential Palace. He&#39;s the one who took over the radio station. He was killed that same day. I have an awesome book about him. I could tell you more...but I&#39;m so damned tired&#33; Maybe, tomorrow.

Bad Juju
Thanks for the response, Bad Juju. It&#39;s always been my opinion that Camilo&#39;s death was no "accident," but there&#39;s not much evidence that I&#39;ve seen proving it either way. The interesting thing, however, is that according to the official government report Camilo&#39;s plane crashed in "stormy weather." According to official weather records from the day, and even the week Camilo dissapeared, there were no storms in Cuba at that time.
When Castro "heroically" went searching for Camilo, those with him at the time say that he was laughing and smiling and seemed completely unaffected by his good friend&#39;s dissapearance. One must keep in mind that Camilo was of the same rank, and as close to Fidel as Che. At the time of Che&#39;s death, Fidel was most certainly not laughing or smiling.
Another interesting, and mostly unknown thing is the fact that partway through Fidel&#39;s search for Camilo&#39;s plane, it was announced on the official government radio station that Camilo had been found alive and well and was on his way back to Havana. Camilo was very well liked, and Cubans "poured out of their houses" and danced in the streets upon hearing the news.
Nothing ever came of it, however. The radio never even took back their statement. Some days later, they merely announced that the search was over and nothing had been found, without even mentioning their first broadcast.
Some Castro insiders say to this day that the first announcement was an attempt to gauge the people&#39;s feelings about Camilo. After the people reacted so happily and showed that Camilo was still a hero in Cuba, Fidel continued with the search.
Had there not been such a happy reaction, what could Fidel have been planning on announcing, eh? That Camilo&#39;s death wasn&#39;t exactly an "accident," or at least that it could have been prevented?

Who knows.

I&#39;d really like to hear more about what you have to say about Camilo, Bad Juju. I think that you can shed more light on the situation than any of us, having been raised in Cuba.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 02:01 AM
Jose Antonio Echevarria was a student who participated in the March 13 attack on the Presidential Palace. He&#39;s the one who took over the radio station. He was killed that same day. I have an awesome book about him. I could tell you more...but I&#39;m so damned tired&#33; Maybe, tomorrow.
Now that you mention it, I do remember him. I&#39;ve read about him in one or two of my books about Fidel. I&#39;d be glad to know more about him, I knew only what you have just said.

[Ortega]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2004, 12:31 AM
She said "the blood of our enemies" and she went to explain how this was the place were the people who stood agains the revolution were tried and killed for many years. My high school Spanish teacher was in line for those excutions. He was sent to live in Chicago at the last minute. He still cries when he talks about it. You should speak to him sometime. He told me all about it. And excutions still happen in Cuba, just like they happen here and everywhere else where there&#39;s no real freedom. It&#39;s something I remember vividly because I trusted Castro and the revolution as a little girl.
These things are sad, very sad. Unlike some of the other members on this board, I undoubtedly admit that these things happen in Cuba. I support Castro in many ways, but in other ways I despise him. I support his politics (for the most part), his leadership, his improvement of Cuba since Batista&#39;s time. And that&#39;s about it.

I&#39;d be glad to talk to your high school Spanish teacher, or for that matter go to Cuba and visit your aunt&#39;s "bat-infested house, eat maggot-infested rice," and see "the real Cuba." I am not afraid to face the facts. I&#39;m always looking for the truth. Personally, I&#39;d be glad to talk to anyone who&#39;s ever faced execution at Castro&#39;s hands. I think that I&#39;d get a lot out of the experience, as would many other people on this board (willingly or not). I&#39;d love to visit your Cuba, the Cuba where people starve and the revolution crumbles.

I want to see things how they are, not how I want them to be.

[JasonR]

Bad-Juju,

You didn&#39;t answer me, do you think your hardships would&#39;ve been better in the capitalist third world countries? No. In Cuba the poor have it much better than the poor in capitalist third world. They are guaranteed a meal, they are guaranteed a home, they are guaranteed employment, fine education (in fact there recently was a large group of poor black students from New York, America that got scholarships to study in Cuba medicine).

Of course there are hardships. There is no poverty in Cuba compared to the poverty in the rest of Latin America. My mom used to be a volunteer in a group that worked with the poor in Latin Amerca and central America, she tells me horrible stories. One time she said that once a group of news reporters from the local Tv station brought toys to a poor neighborhood, the toys were simple stuff like plastic yoyos, rag dolls, etc, and when the TV people got into the neighborhood literally hundreds of children were desperate to get toys&#33; in the end, 5 children died because they were trampeled&#33;

In Cuba children live much better than all the homeless children. My mom even has pictures of all the homeless children she saw, there are hundreds of millions in the tihrd world capitalist countries, none in Cuba.

Cuba has better living standards than the rest of the neo-liberal latin american countries.

[bad-juju]

"In Cuba the poor have it much better than the poor in capitalist third world. They are guaranteed a meal, they are guaranteed a home, they are guaranteed employment, fine education (in fact there recently was a large group of poor black students from New York, America that got scholarships to study in Cuba medicine). "

Are you sure about all these things? Have you seen them with your own eyes, repeatedly, throught the years. Or have you seen some documentary produced by the government? Oh, and American students in Cuba are gonna have a great time&#33; I&#39;m sure they&#39;ll get a first class education and access to every basic comfort every human being deserves. And you want to know why? They&#39;re not Cuban.

And once again, you excuse poverty by saying that it excists in other places. That&#39;s pretty half-assed. Poverty shouldn&#39;t excist anywhere&#33; Especially in Cuba, a country that claims it has a stable economy. What kind of excuse it that? That&#39;s the same thing as saying it&#39;s okay for Mexican workers in California to be mistreated by Americans, because Chinese factory workers are mistreated worse. Plus, you never have lived in Cuba. How do you know there is no poverty in Cuba? How do you know there is no slave labor? How do you know young medical students don&#39;t have turn into hookers to feed their newborn babies? I can show you pictures of the building that used to be my house. I bet you wouldn&#39;t want to live in it. Oh, and to answer your very important question, people in poor Capitalist countries that allow democratic elections have a choice. People in Cuba don&#39;t have that. You have the choice to embrace a socialist doctrine in a country that doesn&#39;t sponsor your beliefs. Do you know how rich you are? Do you know how important that choice is? Have you read A Clockwork Orange? Besides, just in case you didn&#39;t know, all of these countries claim poverty, because they don&#39;t need to keep some facade of a working communist system. Castro claims the economy works, and sometimes I didn&#39;t eat anything but a glass of water and sugar for the whole day, and my parents were doing pretty okay, compared to the old people that have to beg at the back doors of restaurants where you would be allowed to eat, being a foreigner&#33; Have you ever spent a whole school day on a glass of water and sugar, Jason R?

[bad-juju]

Oh, and Jason R, don&#39;t speak to me about poverty in other places. I&#39;ve worked with people who live in the most marginal human conditions, and not because I have some sort of guilt eating me up inside. I know what it&#39;s like to be poor. Have you ever been poor? So poor, you have to wait for other people to finish eating so you can get something? It&#39;s the only thing I care about, and the one thing about this world I want to fix. Let&#39;s go to Cuba, you and I, and since you seem to think it&#39;s such a great place, I&#39;m gonna take you to a place were people make their houses with the boxes that foreigners throw away. Don&#39;t talk to me about poverty until you spend three days picking up oranges on a freezing field with no food in your stomach&#33;

Bad Juju

[dannie]

is it possible to upload these pictures of your house?
i think it&#39;s choking to see havana how it is now, how the houses look, half cars in the streets, etc.

have you experienced tourist apartheid?

[heynow]

JasonR... this is to you...

I&#39;ve been on this board for, like, five minutes and I&#39;m immediately impressed with your ability to combine grammatical imprecision, factual misrepresentation, and ad hominem personal attacks into a nice creamy melange of doltery.

I mean, are you serious with this? Are you stalking bad-juju, or do you two know each other and I&#39;m just missing the joke?

What?

Without commenting on bad-juju&#39;s opinions/posts, and whether or not I specifically agree or disagree with them, it seems to me that s/he is rational.

[bad-juju]

Jannez:

I have some pictures from my mom&#39;s recent trip. I do have to scan them, though. That might take a bit. I have experienced tourist apartheid. If you PM me, I can tell you the story. It&#39;s very private, very painful and I don&#39;t want everyone to know.

Bad Juju

[Ortega]

...and about Camilo, Juju?

I&#39;m just curious to hear what you have to say.

And by all means, upload those pictures of your house when and if you get a chance. I&#39;d be very interested in seeing those, and they may help to prove your point...

[Ortega]

-BUMP-

...Hello?