Marxist view of abortion

[Comrade Jaraxxus]

I always see a lot of "pro-choice" arguments framed in terms of rights discourse and a left-liberal analysis of abortion, but how about from a Marxist perspective?

[RedWorker]

Is it just me or do these "Marxist analysis of" sound like a glorified version of "the personal opinion of radical leftists on this subject"? :D

Someone should be able to decide whether he has a child or not. That's very important because of many reasons, and abortion can be very good for parents, and even save the child suffering (aborting a fetus with serious genetical defects, or who would be born into misery, etc...). And nobody is hurt or suffers when a fetus is aborted, anybody who argues otherwise is full of shit. So where's the problem? Any argument against abortion is just stuff like "all life is precious" bullshit. So mass murdering millions of animals who actually have experienced life violently every day because "meat tastes good" is fine by most people, yet some human stopped from being formed painlessly is terrible. :D Is this post going to make someone uncomfortable? ;)

[Tenka]

I always see a lot of "pro-choice" arguments framed in terms of rights discourse and a left-liberal analysis of abortion, but how about from a Marxist perspective?

What is a "left-liberal analysis of abortion"? Could you provide an example so we know what you've seen?

This isn't necessarily Marxist, but if a woman doesn't want to carry a pregnancy to term there's no reason she should. She is a person with thoughts, aspirations, preferences, etcetera. A fetus functions as a literal parasite, and the only reason anyone would want to put up with letting one grow inside her is that she wants a child (which it is yet far from being). Abortion on demand is necessary because women are people and not incubators, IMO. (Maybe yours is different. Oh dear...)

[QueerVanguard]

My .02 Marxist cents: raising a couple of little brats in today's capitalism is no fun. The TV brainwashes them to want every fucking toy churned out by Toys R US or whoever the hell is manufacturing them and the kids won't stop whining until you acquiesce and buy them, you lose your whole personal life, it'll drive you to the poor house real quick and so on and so forth. If I had a womb and got knocked up for whatever reason you can bet your bottom dollar that I would flush it out real quick. You breeders can knock yourselves out.

Maybe when we make it to Communism and can have them raised communally and all that, then and only then it might be a good idea to start reproducing. The bottom line is this: we should have the right to do whatever the hell we want with our bodies and to live however we please.

[The Intransigent Faction]

What is a "left-liberal analysis of abortion"? Could you provide an example so we know what you've seen?

It seems as though that probably refers to the idea that abortion should be the woman's choice because of some idealist liberal abstraction of "natural rights" rooted in an individualist notion of "bodily autonomy", rather than because women choosing for themselves materially advances the cause of their liberation from patriarchal social structures. In other words, for liberals it comes down to personal choice as if it were in a vacuum. For the radical left, the choice to get an abortion or not will be recognizably influenced by patriarchal institutions which must be struggled against materially.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It seems as though that probably refers to the idea that abortion should be the woman's choice because of some idealist liberal abstraction of "natural rights" rooted in an individualist notion of "bodily autonomy", rather than because women choosing for themselves materially advances the cause of their liberation from patriarchal social structures. In other words, for liberals it comes down to personal choice as if it were in a vacuum. For the radical left, the choice to get an abortion or not will be recognizably influenced by patriarchal institutions which must be struggled against materially.
I don't think the concept of "bodily autonomy" can be dismissed as mere liberal individualism, even if liberals invoke it. Instead, I think it's a radical idea, but one that can only be fully realized through the struggle to abolish society as it exists now.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I don't think the concept of "bodily autonomy" can be dismissed as mere liberal individualism, even if liberals invoke it. Instead, I think it's a radical idea, but one that can only be fully realized through the struggle to abolish society as it exists now.

Definitely. Bodily autonomy is essential for socialism. I didn't mean to dismiss the concept itself as liberal individualism---just to suggest the (I would think uncontroversial) point that the liberal idealist basis for it differs from a socialist understanding of what it is and why it is important, and that naturally would work into attitudes about abortion. Liberals will say it's a woman's choice to go to an abortion clinic, but will conveniently forget the institutionalized sexist pressures against doing so outside of that clinic's walls.

[QueerVanguard]

I don't think the concept of "bodily autonomy" can be dismissed as mere liberal individualism, even if liberals invoke it. Instead, I think it's a radical idea, but one that can only be fully realized through the struggle to abolish society as it exists now.

I hear "body autonomy" and Libertarian shit like self-ownership comes to mind. I really don't think we need these abstract concepts.

[RedWorker]

Yeah, stop using all English words too, lest you sound like a liberal. Like everyone knows communists want to remove the concept of individuals and now also remove "body autonomy", they also want to steal your shoes too. /sarcasm

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I hear "body autonomy" and Libertarian shit like self-ownership comes to mind. I really don't think we need these abstract concepts.
What's abstract about it?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Capitalism is impossible if the proletariat is not reproduced as a class, which necessitates fairly stringent control of the reproductive labour of women (both pregnancy/birth and taking care of the child, which is tied to the other source of oppression of women, the necessity of maintaining a reservoir of unpaid domestic labour). Abortion controls, which are inherently odious to socialists because of their effects on women, who make up more than half of the proletariat, are part of this control - if abortion were truly free, which means that both formal and informal obstacles to a women deciding whether to be pregnant or not have been removed - capitalism could not function as efficiently as it does today.

[QueerVanguard]

What's abstract about it?

Gee, I dunno, maybe its the idea we have any control over our behavior when really we're reflections of the social relations we live with.

[Anarcho-Crackhead]

I think abortion is morally wrong, as you are murdering an innocent being who has done no harm. But if the woman cannot afford to financially sustain the child, or even give birth to it, then it'd be best to just abort the child...

Besides, masturbating is technically a form of a abortion too. Heck, when you get a woman pregnant, only one sperm (sometimes two;twins) gets to the egg, which is kind of a form of baby murder.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I think abortion is morally wrong, as you are murdering an innocent being who has done no harm. But if the woman cannot afford to financially sustain the child, or even give birth to it, then it'd be best to just abort the child...

Besides, masturbating is technically a form of a abortion too. Heck, when you get a woman pregnant, only one sperm (sometimes two;twins) gets to the egg, which is kind of a form of baby murder.

I hope you are a troll, otherwise you're bloody stupid. Those sperm aren't life, nor is that egg, or the zygote; unless you mean to say that every time a woman is menstruating she's killing a baby.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Gee, I dunno, maybe its the idea we have any control over our behavior when really we're reflections of the social relations we live with.
So you believe humans are merely programmed automatons?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I think abortion is morally wrong, as you are murdering an innocent being who has done no harm. But if the woman cannot afford to financially sustain the child, or even give birth to it, then it'd be best to just abort the child...
So you think it's murder, but murder is acceptable for financial reasons? At least the "no abortion under any circumstances" crowd is consistent.

[Anarcho-Crackhead]

So you think it's murder, but murder is acceptable for financial reasons? At least the "no abortion under any circumstances" crowd is consistent.
The thing is like barely alive, c'mon now.
Besides, what if that fetus is a future Fascist and the mother is also a Fascist, better off dead if you ask me.

[bropasaran]

Marxist view of abortion? Something like "There is no morality, no justice, human nature and rights are bullshit, but bodily autonomy is a must, unrestricted access to abortions at any point is a moral imperative, why- because fuck you, that's why." :grin:

I can understand when anarchists defend bodily autonomy, we at least have an ideology whose main thinkers didn't shy from using ethical discourse, but it's interesting to see professed amoralists trying to do mental back-flips to try and fit their vehement pro-choice view into that.

[synthesis]

A fetus functions as a literal parasite

Oh God, I thought this argument had been put out of its misery years ago. Just for starters, a parasite by definition is a different species from the host. I really cringe whenever I hear (or see) anyone saying that a fetus is a parasite. I think just saying that "a woman's body is her own" is quite sufficient - if you disagree with that, you're not going to be convinced by someone telling you this fetus, that you ignorantly think has some sort of "soul" that needs to be protected, is actually a parasite, biologically speaking.


Marxist view of abortion? Something like "There is no morality, no justice, human nature and rights are bullshit, but bodily autonomy is a must, unrestricted access to abortions at any point is a moral imperative, why- because fuck you, that's why." :grin:

I can understand when anarchists defend bodily autonomy, we at least have an ideology whose main thinkers didn't shy from using ethical discourse, but it's interesting to see professed amoralists trying to do mental back-flips to try and fit their vehement pro-choice view into that.

Careful, Sotionov - you're getting into the same territory that got your former account restricted in the first place.

[Comrade #138672]

Pro-choice follows from our support for the self-determination of workers, which includes the self-determination of women.

[Skyhilist]

Does there have to be a "Marxist" view of everything? I mean I think the opposite of what Marx wanted was people to listen to his every idea - he wanted people to think for themselves. One's ideas about abortion can be Marxian insofar as they are influenced by Marx's process of analyzing struggle and viewing the world (historical materialism, etc.) - however, any idea about abortion that one arrives at using these methods isn't automatically Marxist, because it's your idea, not Marx's. And anyone trying to probe Marx's texts for something he may have written somewhere in some passage about abortion instead of actually thinking about the issue is a dogmatic fool.

Long story short: It's dumb to label views on issues like abortion to be "Marxist" or "un-Marxist" - lets worry about the content of the ideas rather than what label we can put on them.

Of course, like all others here I am fully in support of abortion, and coincidentally I suppose somewhat influenced by some of Marx's writing and by more libertarian strands of Marxism, although I don't consider myself a Marxist.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Marxist view of abortion? Something like "There is no morality, no justice, human nature and rights are bullshit, but bodily autonomy is a must, unrestricted access to abortions at any point is a moral imperative, why- because fuck you, that's why." :grin:.

The leader of Canada's Federal Liberal Party, Justin Trudeau, just recently put a ban on any so-called "pro-life" (anti-choice) candidates running for office as a Liberal. Some are calling it an "ethical lobotomy" (lol). http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/05/16/on_abortion_justin_trudeau_imposes_ethical_lobotom y_on_liberals.html

We, as leftists, must stand behind him and lend our support to this leftist's morally righteous cause! This election, vote Liberal!

Yeah...so all bullshit aside, as I've said before, there are distinct differences from a Liberal's reasoning for opposing abortion and a Marxist/communist/whatever-the-fuck-term's. Even Ayn Rand was pro-choice. It's important to distinguish between the pro-choice reasoning of Marxists (even if you dislike the term) and Liberals or Social Democrats, not out of ideological dogmatism, but because pro-choice Liberals, however pro-choice they are, leave oppressive patriarchal institutions intact. You don't have to take Marx as gospel to understand that point, but it is why understanding abortion from a leftist/Marxist/whatever-the-fuck-term perspective is important.

I'm iffy on amoralism, but morality doesn't need to be injected into politics in this way. Even if you want to use the language of rights, human rights aren't something that fall from the sky to be documented in bourgeois state constitutions which act as some kind of moral code for humanity.

One can oppose anti-choice positions for both moral and amoral reasons yet still base their positions on amoral (or not overtly moral in the pure idealist sense) reasoning. Liberal feminism leaves patriarchal institutions intact, while a more "holistic" feminism that realizes the abortion issue cannot be isolated from other aspects of patriarchy in capitalism is more likely to effectively overcome patriarchy. Again, I don't think amoral reasons for supporting x preclude there also being moral reasons, it's just that moral ones taken alone are prone to liberal idealism. The point is, it's important to understand the "Marxist" position insofar as we MUST distinguish between a pro-choice Liberal like Trudeau and someone who understands the issue in its broader context of patriarchal/heteronormative-gender-role-promoting capitalist institutions.