69 years ago today, the Soviet Union liberated Berlin.

[M-L-C-F]

In 3 days it's VE Day + 69 years. 4 days until Victory Day in the former Soviet Union. So happy Victory Day everyone. May we celebrate the death of Nazi Germany. :hammersickle:

[Sea]

Joyous day, comrade! The establishment of Socialism in Germany is one of the most heartwarming historical moments ever. EVER!!!! Let us thank the Russians and their brave and generous leaders for having done that, and let us thank the Adolf "Heil" Hitler for creating the context for it. But let us thank, most of all, Comrade Wilhelm "Wet Willy" Pieck and his freedom-giving plan for the glorious working class!

Honest question:
Would "oh, fuck off, man" be considered an infraction-worthy thing if it were posted on its own?

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Yes, they liberated Berlin....and then conducted one of the most horrific mass rapes in the history of warfare.

[BIXX]

Two things:

1. Hahaha 69 years ago
2. Seriously, "liberated Berlin"? That is a huge crock of shit.

[Remus Bleys]

If by liberated you mean rape and then divide it up in half sure

[M-L-C-F]

I figured that making this topic would bring these sorta responses. Ah Rev-Left, it's so typically cliched and expected. :laugh:

The point was more about Victory Day... But whatever, I'm done in this topic. :rolleyes:

So I'm taking all bets on how long till this turns into yet another inane debate topic! Between the Stalin kiddies, the arrogant Trots, the liberal pretenders, the whiny libertarian leftists, and the ultra-left twats. Like we've seen here so many times before. Equal opportunity bullshit, I call it. ;)

Though maybe I'm just bitter? Cause I've dealt with and seen it all before, in the past 11 years of coming here on and off. :p

Yes, I'm being a jackass. No, don't take it seriously. :grin:

[tachosomoza]

If the Americans had gotten there first, they would have "liberated" it. It really doesn't matter, it's just nationalistic chest beating. The Soviets liberated concentration camps, as did the British and Americans. The Brits, Americans and Resistance liberated dozens of cities in France, Belgium, Holland and Western Germany. It really doesn't matter, every Allied power contributed to winning the war.

This is awesome though:

YrFKDXuQYh0

[DOOM]

Well liberated is actually quite a good term do describe that event. However, what followed wasn't that liberating, huh?
Fucking Soviets

[Alexios]

So I'm taking all bets on how long till this turns into yet another inane debate topic! Between the Stalin kiddies, the arrogant Trots, the liberal pretenders, the whiny libertarian leftists, and the ultra-left twats. Like we've seen here so many times before. Equal opportunity bullshit, I call it. ;)lol so in response to people condemning mass rape by the Red Army you call everyone "whiny twats." well done. nothing like using gendered insults in an argument about rape.

[Sea]

I figured that making this topic would bring these sorta responses. Ah Rev-Left, it's so typically cliched and expected. :laugh:

The point was more about Victory Day... But whatever, I'm done in this topic. :rolleyes:

So I'm taking all bets on how long till this turns into yet another inane debate topic! Between the Stalin kiddies, the arrogant Trots, the liberal pretenders, the whiny libertarian leftists, and the ultra-left twats. Like we've seen here so many times before. Equal opportunity bullshit, I call it. ;)

Though maybe I'm just bitter? Cause I've dealt with and seen it all before, in the past 11 years of coming here on and off. :p

Yes, I'm being a jackass. No, don't take it seriously. :grin:Why be done with the topic? If you're correct, and you have indeed considered this question time and time again, please enlighten us. We're wrong and we want to know why! Knowledge shouldn't be a secret, comrade! Share it!

(somebody ban this sexist fuckwit)

edit: I just realized your post has more smilies than mine, so here :laugh::laugh:;):grin::(:rolleyes:

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Wait, what is sexist about the post? OP never tried to justify rape. This wasn't even meant to be a debate topic anyway, it's a "this day in history" fact. Since the Soviet Union is relevant to Marxism, it's relevant to post it. But where's the sexism exactly?

[BIXX]

Wait, what is sexist about the post? OP never tried to justify rape. This wasn't even meant to be a debate topic anyway, it's a "this day in history" fact. Since the Soviet Union is relevant to Marxism, it's relevant to post it. But where's the sexism exactly?


When he used gendered insults to dismiss our discussion of the mass rapes in Germany.

[Prometeo liberado]

Yes, they liberated Berlin....and then conducted one of the most horrific mass rapes in the history of warfare.

Worse than the rape of Nanking?

[Alexios]

Worse than the rape of Nanking?

He said "one of the most" so I don't even get what the point of this question is.

[Prometeo liberado]

He said "one of the most" so I don't even get what the point of this question is.

Im trying to raise rank them. By his statement x amount of rapes is worse to y amount of rapes. By the way what number gets you into this notorious category? 1, 8, 1,000,000?

[Alexios]

Im trying to raise rank them. By his statement x amount of rapes is worse to y amount of rapes. By the way what number gets you into this notorious category? 1, 8, 1,000,000?

It's a figure of speech, get over it.

[Invader Zim]

Worse than the rape of Nanking?

"Worse" in which sense? The Rape of Nanking was also a bloody massacre of 100,000 to 200,000 people, some estimates go even higher. The number of rape victims is usually estimated at around 30,000.

The occupation/liberation (whatever you want to call it) of Berlin by the Red Army, while not including the same degree of mass murder on the same scale as Nanking, did however, according to some estimates, involve the rape of up to 100,000 women and children with 10,000 deaths.

Furthermore, I'm not sure that one-up-manship when it comes to mass human carnage is at all appropriate.

[exeexe]

So the Soviet Union liberated the berliners from liberalism*. How funny

*Americans were coming too

[RedMaterialist]

How many rapes did the German (and others such as Hungarian) Army commit in Russia between 1941-1945? How many rapes were committed by U.S., French, Canadian and British men? How many rapes were committed by Americans against native Americans and slaves? How many rapes were committed by the Spanish against Central and South American natives? How many rapes were committed by the British against Indian women? How many rapes were committed by Americans in Vietnam?

In spite of centuries of war rape it wasn't until recently that war rape was even considered a war crime or even taken very seriously. Even in the U.S. military today there still is an acceptance of rape as a kind of sport. It's possible men still see women as property belonging to another man, even unconsciously, and therefore see rape as a kind of theft instead of an act of sexual violence.

[Hermes]

How many rapes did the German (and others such as Hungarian) Army commit in Russia between 1941-1945? How many rapes were committed by U.S., French, Canadian and British men? How many rapes were committed by Americans against native Americans and slaves? How many rapes were committed by the Spanish against Central and South American natives? How many rapes were committed by the British against Indian women? How many rapes were committed by Americans in Vietnam?

In spite of centuries of war rape it wasn't until recently that war rape was even considered a war crime or even taken very seriously. Even in the U.S. military today there still is an acceptance of rape as a kind of sport. It's possible men still see women as property belonging to another man, even unconsciously, and therefore see rape as a kind of theft instead of an act of sexual violence.

are you seriously attempting to justify rape 'because the germans did it too!'?

maybe if this happened... iunno, in the 12th century, and attempting an explanation rather than a justification, but claiming that rape wasn't seen as a terrible thing, even 'war rape', in the 1940's, seems really sketch to me.

if you're really so keen on supporting the ussr, why not just accept the blame instead of trying to justify it and looking like... garbage?

[RedMaterialist]

are you seriously attempting to justify rape 'because the germans did it too!'?

maybe if this happened... iunno, in the 12th century, and attempting an explanation rather than a justification, but claiming that rape wasn't seen as a terrible thing, even 'war rape', in the 1940's, seems really sketch to me.

if you're really so keen on supporting the ussr, why not just accept the blame instead of trying to justify it and looking like... garbage?

Why is the rape of Russian women by German soldiers less criminal than the rape of German women by Russian soldiers?

[Raquin]

I have never read much literature on this mass rape in Berlin business. Is there any solid evidence for this theory? It's very suspicious, considering the severe penalty for rape that the Red Army enforced in 1945.

[Hermes]

Why is the rape of Russian women by German soldiers less criminal than the rape of German women by Russian soldiers?

except no one's implying that it was, I'm not sure where you're attempting to go with this question

[RedMaterialist]

except no one's implying that it was, I'm not sure where you're attempting to go with this question

You just implied it when you said I was attempting to justify the rape of German women by saying that German soldiers raped Russian women.

Rape wasn't originally considered a crime against the woman. It was a property crime against the owner of the woman. That idea of the woman as property of a man obviously still lingers on, just look at Nigeria.

[#FF0000]

You just implied it when you said I was attempting to justify the rape of German women by saying that German soldiers raped Russian women.

How does what you say not imply that what the Russians did was not as bad as what the Germans did, though? Like, it's insane that you can try to use that line on someone else but not apply it to what you said.

Maybe it isn't what you meant but it's somewhat easy to look at what you said and get some kind of implicit acceptance for what happened in Berlin from it.


Rape wasn't originally considered a crime against the woman. It was a property crime against the owner of the woman. That idea of the woman as property of a man obviously still lingers on, just look at Nigeria.

Except that the penalty for rape in all of these armies was execution, and hundreds of American GIs were tried for rape in France. Rape was seen as a serious crime, at least from a legal standpoint. However, enforcement was extremely selective and was still encouraged by officers on the ground on all sides.

[#FF0000]

I have never read much literature on this mass rape in Berlin business. Is there any solid evidence for this theory? It's very suspicious, considering the severe penalty for rape that the Red Army enforced in 1945.

Uh, it's pretty well documented. And every side in the war had severe penalties for rape -- but they were selectively enforced or not at all. The Germans as well as (I believe) the Americans had the death penalty for rape. However, that didn't do a damn thing to stop the Germans in Poland and Russia, or the Americans in Germany and even in France.

What you red-alert kiddies need to understand is that war isn't glorious and this isn't an action movie. Rape and war have gone hand in hand for as long as human history, no matter how much one wants to go on and on and on about how just and right and good one side or the other is. No one has a halo in war and it's disgusting and pathetic how ideologically blinkered some of you people are.

[synthesis]

I have never read much literature on this mass rape in Berlin business. Is there any solid evidence for this theory? It's very suspicious, considering the severe penalty for rape that the Red Army enforced in 1945.

Glad to hear you'll be banned soon.

[RedMaterialist]

You might be surprised to know that most prosecutions of U.S. soldiers for rape in Europe were against black soldiers. It was assumed that they would commit a brutality like rape, esp against white German women. Some of the same racism applied to the mongrel Russians.

[RedMaterialist]

How does what you say not imply that what the Russians did was not as bad as what the Germans did, though? Like, it's insane that you can try to use that line on someone else but not apply it to what you said.



This thread started with a comment about mass rape of German women by Russian troops. It was a horrific war crime. I then asked what the OP thought about the rape of Russian women by German troops. The OP said something to the effect that I shouldn't try to compare the two. I was pointing out the hypocrisy.

[Raquin]

Uh, it's pretty well documented. And every side in the war had severe penalties for rape -- but they were selectively enforced or not at all. The Germans as well as (I believe) the Americans had the death penalty for rape. However, that didn't do a damn thing to stop the Germans in Poland and Russia, or the Americans in Germany and even in France.

What you red-alert kiddies need to understand is that war isn't glorious and this isn't an action movie. Rape and war have gone hand in hand for as long as human history, no matter how much one wants to go on and on and on about how just and right and good one side or the other is. No one has a halo in war and it's disgusting and pathetic how ideologically blinkered some of you people are.
If it's so well documented can I see some of these documents? Surely a few must be available online. Red Army and Soviet occupational authority reports on the rape pandemic, medical records of women being treated after gang rapes, anything? I asked a serious fucking question, I didn't invite some edgy neckbeard on revleft to sanctimoniously rant about some video game or whatever the fuck it is you are so hysterical about. Jesus Christ man, get your shit together.


Glad to hear you'll be banned soon.
You burned me good sir. Any other clever remarks?

[ComradeOm]

If it's so well documented can I see some of these documents? Surely a few must be available onlineWhy would they be online? Only a tiny, tiny percentage of historical documents currently held in archives have been digitised and made freely available. Unless there's a website out there called www.redarmymedicalreports.com then you'll have to rely on the historians who have trawled through the archives. Or fly to Berlin/Moscow and do the research yourself.

Alternatively: read a book

[Raquin]

Why would they be online? Only a tiny, tiny percentage of historical documents currently held in archives have been digitised and made freely available. Unless there's a website out there called www.redarmymedicalreports.com (http://www.redarmymedicalreports.com) then you'll have to rely on the historians who have trawled through the archives. Or fly to Berlin/Moscow and do the research yourself.

Good sir,

Hello, as a student of history, I have asked a serious question; is there any documentary evidence, from say, Soviet archives or Berlin hospitals, to support the theory that the Red Army committed mass rape in Berlin? Since so many women were allegedly raped, and half of them were allegedly group raped, a large fraction of them must have suffered physical injuries that required immediate medical attention(Russian soldiers are said to have mutilated the vaginas of their victims in Berlin with bayonets on massive scale, for example). And since rape decreases unit cohesion and discipline, it surely would have caught the attention of the Red Army, and there would be official reports and records in Soviet archives. Since I can only assume that you are implying that historians have, as you said, trawled through archives, and found evidence of mass rape, and you have read their research, could you name a couple of these historians and summarise their findings for me please? That's my first question for you.


Alternatively: read a book
It never hurts to read, aye? But what exactly are you asking me to read? Give me a title and the name of the author and I will gladly read your book.

[Left Voice]

The reasons that so many comrades cite for denying the rapes committed by the Red Army are chillingly similar to those used to deny the Rape of Nanking.

People need to come to terms with the fact that horrific crimes were indeed committed, lest it continue to be a elephant in the room for communists. Why do people find it so much harder to believe that soldiers under one flag are just as capable of rape as those under another?

[Tim Cornelis]

You might be surprised to know that most prosecutions of U.S. soldiers for rape in Europe were against black soldiers. It was assumed that they would commit a brutality like rape, esp against white German women. Some of the same racism applied to the mongrel Russians.

Are you seriously suggesting that the denunciation of mass rape by Red Army soldiers here is due to us upholding some archaic racial inferiority theory of the (non-existent) Turko-Mongolic races?

[ComradeOm]

Hello, as a student of history, I have asked a serious question; is there any documentary evidence, from say, Soviet archives or Berlin hospitals, to support the theory that the Red Army committed mass rape in Berlin?Yes. It's present in every account of the invasion of Germany that I've read. It's touched on in Bellamy's 'Absolute War' and I recall Naimark's 'History of the Soviet Zone' presenting a broader picture than just Germany. But Beevor's 'Berlin' is probably the most detailed of recent mainstream works and I'd recommend this as an introduction to the Berlin offensive.

This issue of the mass rapes is not and never has been a secret. Nor is it something that has recently come to light. That anyone here would even think of denying or excusing this is disgraceful.

[synthesis]

That anyone here would even think of denying or excusing this is disgraceful.

I don't think it's quite on the level of Holocaust denial, ethically speaking, but you do see a lot of the same tactics - a sort of pseudo-intellectual solipsism that rejects all evidence before it's even presented. (I don't think it should be any more acceptable than Holocaust denialism, though - it looks really, really bad, potentially to an extent that I would argue has a non-negligible effect on the appeal of communism as an ideology to interested parties.)

[Geiseric]

How many rapes did the German (and others such as Hungarian) Army commit in Russia between 1941-1945? How many rapes were committed by U.S., French, Canadian and British men? How many rapes were committed by Americans against native Americans and slaves? How many rapes were committed by the Spanish against Central and South American natives? How many rapes were committed by the British against Indian women? How many rapes were committed by Americans in Vietnam?

In spite of centuries of war rape it wasn't until recently that war rape was even considered a war crime or even taken very seriously. Even in the U.S. military today there still is an acceptance of rape as a kind of sport. It's possible men still see women as property belonging to another man, even unconsciously, and therefore see rape as a kind of theft instead of an act of sexual violence.

Lol you're such an idiot, I can't even stand to argue with you. The Soviet Union under Trotsky executed on the spot anybody guilty of rape or looting.

[RedMaterialist]

Lol you're such an idiot, I can't even stand to argue with you. The Soviet Union under Trotsky executed on the spot anybody guilty of rape or looting.

As I recall, Trotsky was dead in 1945. The Soviet Union under Trotsky was a revolutionary, workers' state, and unlike previous states, did not tolerate rape and looting. Ok, idiot, moron, fool, stupid jerk, what was your point? That your delicate socialist soul is offended that horrific war crimes are committed during war?

Does anybody seriously deny that Russian troops committed mass rape of
German women? There is supposed to be a statue in Berlin of the tomb of the unknown Russian soldier. German women call it the tomb of the unknown rapist.

Imagine that Japan had invaded the US in 1941, murdered 20 million men, women and children, destroyed the US economy forcing Americans into starvation. And that the US, after four years of brutal war, had driven the Japanese out. Would Japan still even exist as a country? Or would it be a radioactive wasteland. How many Japanese males would be alive today? What would have happened to any Japanese female between the ages of 8-80 (which is what one Soviet female reporter said was the age of raped Germans?)

A communist is not the Lamb of the Christian God who forgives his enemies for rape, slavery, torture, starvation, murder and war. There is never any "justification" for rape or for any of this. But that is not the point. Sorry to offend your Christian heart.

[Kaoxic]

Yeah and raped half of the women. :rolleyes:

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Cue Putin waving at a mass of missiles and tanks on parade, hooray for the Motherland, blah blah blah.
The defeat of Nazism is worth remembering and being thankful for. But Berliners and Eastern Europe did not find it was all plain sailing after the Wehrmacht were sent packing. Not getting into any USSR = not that great stuff now but for those that were liberated by the Soviets (from Berlin to Hungary et al) there was a cost and any joy of liberation was short-lived.

[Geiseric]

As I recall, Trotsky was dead in 1945. The Soviet Union under Trotsky was a revolutionary, workers' state, and unlike previous states, did not tolerate rape and looting. Ok, idiot, moron, fool, stupid jerk, what was your point? That your delicate socialist soul is offended that horrific war crimes are committed during war?

Does anybody seriously deny that Russian troops committed mass rape of
German women? There is supposed to be a statue in Berlin of the tomb of the unknown Russian soldier. German women call it the tomb of the unknown rapist.

Imagine that Japan had invaded the US in 1941, murdered 20 million men, women and children, destroyed the US economy forcing Americans into starvation. And that the US, after four years of brutal war, had driven the Japanese out. Would Japan still even exist as a country? Or would it be a radioactive wasteland. How many Japanese males would be alive today? What would have happened to any Japanese female between the ages of 8-80 (which is what one Soviet female reporter said was the age of raped Germans?)

A communist is not the Lamb of the Christian God who forgives his enemies for rape, slavery, torture, starvation, murder and war. There is never any "justification" for rape or for any of this. But that is not the point. Sorry to offend your Christian heart.

Troll harder seriously. This is getting old.

[SensibleLuxemburgist]

70 years ago, on May 20, 1944 a group of Polish workers stole and hide an entire German V-2 rocket after it had fell to Earth during German V-2 testing before the Germans could recover it. Imagine the hilarity of the "glorious Aryan race" being unable to keep track of a 14 meter long rocket, about the height of a three-story house.

[erupt]

70 years ago, on May 20, 1944 a group of Polish workers stole and hide an entire German V-2 rocket after it had fell to Earth during German V-2 testing before the Germans could recover it. Imagine the hilarity of the "glorious Aryan race" being unable to keep track of a 14 meter long rocket, about the height of a three-story house.

I've been interested in World War II even longer than I've been a socialist, so this is more interesting to me than most.

New stories are always great, and when they have decent endings like this, rather then Heydrich's assassination ending with Lidice, Czechoslovakia being wiped off the planet, it's all the better.

[Max]

They liberated part of Berlin, but in the process murdered and raped 1000s of german citizens. It isn't a very joyous day, especially as I have family members who lived through the "liberation" of Berlin. They are anti capitalist, and even they dislike the soviets for how they treated the German people in the months following the war.