China and capitalism

[Bombay]

Capitalists use China as an example of capitalism being superior to socialism because there are rising standards of living in China now that it is more capitalist. How should one respond to that?

[Blake's Baby]

By pointing out that China was never 'socialist'. All that has happened is that China is organising the exploitation of its working class more efficiently.

[exeexe]

Capitalism steal from workers
Socialism doesn't steal from workers

If some workers see that their living conditions is climbing under capitalism it just means
1) The workers came from a really poor living conditions from the initial outset
2) The capitalist class receive much more wealth than any worker can dream of

[motion denied]

Capitalists use China as an example of capitalism being superior to socialism because there are rising standards of living in China now that it is more capitalist. How should one respond to that?

Whoever says that is absolutely full of shit. Respond with reality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

And as Blake's Baby noted above, China has never been socialist.

[ralfy]

Such a system is not sustainable because of peak oil and global warming.

[ashtonh]

China never was socialist. I do support some of mao theory his implementation did succumb to capitalist interest.

[Redistribute the Rep]

Tell them to look at Beijing on Google World


Oh yea, you can't even see it because of all the pollution.

[Redistribute the Rep]

In addition, I remember Noam Chomsky once responding to someone who said standards of living rise during capitalism by pointing out that living standards also rose while slavery was around. An eighteenth century slave was better off than a seventeenth century slave, but is that an argument for slavery?

[The Intransigent Faction]

I've heard nothing about rising standards of living, at least not for the vast majority in China. Does that mean migrant workers are making ten cents an hour instead of three? That's still exploitation, and it would remain so even if they made the equivalent what temporary foreign workers are being paid in Canada, let alone a more average Canadian or American wage.

At least this person has the sense to recognize that modern China isn't socialist. Progress!

[Killer Enigma]

You can do what everyone else says and shit on China, or you can use the facts at your disposal and destroy their arguments tooth and nail, making a good case for socialism while you do it. Check out this essay (http://return2source.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/china-market-socialism-a-question-of-state-revolution/), this editorial (http://mltoday.com/china-capitalist-or-socialist) and this study on Communist Party-led trade unions in China and Vietnam (http://viet-studies.info/kinhte/CanPartyLedRepresent.pdf) for more info.

[RedWorker]

1. China was never socialist. It pretended and pretends to be socialist. Nothing has changed other than the implementation of the free market.
.
2. China's GDP has been multiplied by 14.7 in the last 10 years, yet about 71% of their people live on less than $5 a day according to the World Bank. What does this tell us? What good is a massive increase in a state's wealth if it all goes to a privileged set of people rather than to the masses?

3. All wealth in capitalism is created for the 1% at the expense of the 99%. All the countries in the world are under capitalism - yet some are extremely rich (though actually even in these countries stuff like poverty is endemic, for example 50 million people in the U.S. are poor despite having the largest economy in the world) while others are extremely poor. Some privileged countries may get a lot of investment in them and become rich - but that will be a minority case and will necessarily involve the majority's economy being behind. How well is capitalism working for Africa? What happened when the Soviet Union switched from their system to free-market capitalism? Massive poverty, totally destroyed economy, decrease of 10 years in life expectancy, you name it.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

As Russian Red said, first show them a picture of any large cities in China. Then, while they are appalled at the amount of pollution show them the statistics such as how living in Beijing is equivalent to smoking over a pack of cigarettes a day.

Then, offer them statistics on life expectancy, literacy, and number of women in the workforce from like 1950-1965 or so. Then point out that even though these are major major improvements and obviously leftist economic models, that a huge number of leftists claim that China was never socialist. But point out that many leftist economic policies worked out.

Then point out that just because pretty skyscrapers are going up with neon lights everywhere doesn't really mean shit for the average person's quality of life. Oh, and inevitably the person you're debating with will be concerned with "human rights." So point out that under China's capitalist model, their government has committed atrocities such as the torture of members of certain religions and the massive surveillance network and censorship that occurs in capitalist China.

[RedWorker]

Oh, and inevitably the person you're debating with will be concerned with "human rights." So point out that under China's capitalist model, their government has committed atrocities such as the torture of members of certain religions and the massive surveillance network and censorship that occurs in capitalist China.

It's funny how they'll say "capitalism improved China so much" then quickly point out it's ruled by a "communist" party on the topic of human right abuses.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

It's funny how they'll say "capitalism improved China so much" then quickly point out it's ruled by a "communist" party on the topic of human right abuses.

I know, right? They generally work with whatever definition fits the situation. That's actually one thing I…huh…"like" about China. They still call themselves the Communist Party in a blatantly capitalist nation, so it forces people to question whether countries that historically called themselves communist might just not actually have been communist. It forces a cognitive dissonance.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I mean, socialist construction WAS underway for roughly twenty years until cold war politicking brought Mao and Nixon to embrace each other. Not like the fSU was a shining example in the period either in that regard either.

[cassiane]

After Mao's died when China reform their economy and made it as state capitalism. Wherein the means of productions are owned by private but the state have considerable control over the credit and investment. Moreover, their wage salary is depend on grade and industries.