European Parliament election, 2014 (United Kingdom) Poll

[The Idler]

European Parliament election, 2014 (United Kingdom)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014_(United_Kingdom )
I'm aware of the other topic (http://www.revleft.com/vb/them-euro-elections-t188055/index.html) but not a poll where many of the parties are listed for voting on.
Please read any replies then cast your vote in the mock election straw poll here and explain below.
I've excluded some big ones like Conservatives and Ukip since this is revleft.
If you wish to include a party not included then please click Other and state it in your reply.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I would probably vote NHAP but I don't THINK they are standing candidates where I live.

So just won't vote.

I'll vote Labour in the local council election because the tories are literally killing my local area and labour councillors are actually kinda alright.

[robbo203]

Looks like an electoral landslide for the SPGB :grin:


Talking of which, here's Danny Lambert of the SPGB on the BBC's Daily Politics Programme

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mg_WdQl4Zk&feature=youtu.be

[Devrim]

Abstain: I am a communist. I don't vote in bourgeois elections.

Devrim

[exeexe]

I vote spoil ballot. We are gonna have a dictatorelection in Denmark too. Anyways the election for the EU parliament is almost futile. The movie the end of nations EU Takeover & the Lisbon Treaty will explain this in great detail.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I don't even know if spoil ballots are counted in EU elections

not sure if I can even be fucked to go in, I have an exam to revise for and the nearest polling station is half an hour's walk away

[The Idler]

I've not voted. SPGB aren't standing where I live and I don't fancy the others.

[BITW434]

I fall just 6 months short of being eligible to vote, but I think if I could vote I would be leaning towards No2EU.

I can't see the Liberal Democrats doing too well in this poll :laugh:

[GerrardWinstanley]

European elections are even more of a joke than national elections, but if I can contribute in any way to stopping some thick, racist piece of shit getting a plush €100,000pa post for flying to Brussels once a fortnight, then I might actually have to think about this.

[Futility Personified]

I'm voting Green. Every other party on the ballot is crazy. The Greens are merely disappointing and the only left group where I live.

[KurtFF8]

Abstain: I am a communist. I don't vote in bourgeois elections.

Devrim

I'm a Communist, so I vote for Communists.

(well... I'm also American so I don't vote in Euro elections)

[exeexe]

I don't even know if spoil ballots are counted in EU elections

Of course they dont count. You just ruined it so that it doesnt count.

[ed miliband]

I would probably vote NHAP but I don't THINK they are standing candidates where I live.

So just won't vote.

I'll vote Labour in the local council election because the tories are literally killing my local area and labour councillors are actually kinda alright.

labour councils across the country have been behaving in much the same way as tory councils. in my local labour council the tory councillors sometimes attack the labour councillors from the left of them. what makes you think it'll be any different where you are?

[robbo203]

labour councils across the country have been behaving in much the same way as tory councils. in my local labour council the tory councillors sometimes attack the labour councillors from the left of them. what makes you think it'll be any different where you are?

"Labour, Tory, same old story..."

Its the system that runs the politicians, not the other way round.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

labour councils across the country have been behaving in much the same way as tory councils. in my local labour council the tory councillors sometimes attack the labour councillors from the left of them. what makes you think it'll be any different where you are?

because the labour council where I am was actually alright. I know the same was true in at least 1 other North London council.

Whereas the Tory councillors voted to give themselves something like a 100% pay rise for working part-time in June 2010, knowing that people would forget about it 4-5 years later.

Plus a Tory candidate knocked on my door the other day and basically called me thick because I disagreed with him. Prick. Told him where to go.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

^^I'm not advocating people vote labour in local elections, btw. I'm just saying that there is a definite difference between the specific candidates of the labour and tory parties in my council ward/district.

[Red Economist]

I've just got back from voting (Green) and I was the first one there. I know it's horrible and democracy really sucks, but if we vote this time round we can get the right-wing press to shut up about Immigration and Europe and show that we have more important things to do. That's got to feel good somehow! :grin:

[Q]

Spoiled my ballot:

For a Democratic Republic of Europe!
http://communisme.nu

Recruiting the vote counters while at it :grin:

Edit:
By the way, for Dutch comrades, there is a commentary I wrote on this right here (http://communisme.nu/commentaar/2014/05/21/europese-verkiezingen-geen-stem-op-de-sp-voor-een-internationalistische-oppositie/).

[Celtanarchy]

No parties from N.I.?

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

I'll be going with my wife after work (think she'll be voting Green, I'm not 100% sure yet...want to spoil ballot but also want to take at least one vote away from Griffin or Nuttal))

[Red Economist]

I'm not 100% sure yet...want to spoil ballot but also want to take at least one vote away from Griffin or Nuttal.

The ballots already been spoiled by bourgeois democracy! go on, vote so it makes it a bit harder for them to keep screwing us over.

[Left Voice]

The BBC have produced a list of parties with a short summary. There's a fair few crackpot parties. The ironically-named Harmony Party, for example. It's like every xenophobe in the UK is forming their own party.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27218759

A fair few comrades are involved though.


Socialist Party of Great Britain
On its website, the party says it will be campaigning for common, democratic ownership of public services, the abolition of property rights and an end to inequality. Candidates: Fielding candidates in south-east England and Wales only.

Socialist Equality Party
The European Union should be replaced by a United Socialist States of Europe, the party says, with "workers' governments" and an end to the "age of austerity". On its party website, it says it is aligned with its sister party in Germany, Partei Für Soziale Gleichheit. Candidates: Fielding candidates in north-west England only.

Socialist Labour Party
The party, led by Arthur Scargill, advocates withdrawal from the EU so the UK can "regain control of its economy, sovereignty and political power". On its party website, Mr Scargill says British farmers are "being paid not to produce food" at a time of worldwide shortages. Candidates: Fielding candidates in Wales only.

I don't take part in bourgeoisie elections, but this demonstrates how divided the left is. I could never support the Socialist Labour Party based on such a nationalist line. SPGB are obviously impossiblists.
Is anybody here a member of the Socialist Equality Party?

[Sasha]

so far i resisted the urge to vote (which i most often do) if i suddenly get caught with a bout of insanity the only possible option i would vote for is the "partij voor de dieren" which is, contrary than their name suggests not only a animal rights party but a wider ecological party with some decent reformist ideas, its the only party i know that advocates a stop to economic growth because thats predatory on the earth and the 3th world.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

As Devrim said, I'm a communist and I don't vote. And I don't particularly care for the constant propaganda surrounding the elections. It makes a fellow want to burn some ballots.


Is anybody here a member of the Socialist Equality Party?

I think one of the members was a sympathiser, but as I recall it he hasn't posted in a while.

But, concerning the SEP. To cut a long story short: remember Gerry Healy? How he was a bit of a miserable bureaucratic tyrant with extremely backward views on women and gay people and a tendency to adapt himself to dodgy "Third World" despots? Well the SEP are the British affiliate of an organisation started by his erstwhile American viceroy, one David North nee Green.

This organisation is also notorious for functioning as an appendage of Mehring publishing, a non-union shop run by one... David Green. They are against unions, advance a semi-Kautskyist theory of "globalisation", have blocked with white segregationists in opposition to school busing etc.

[Left Voice]

I share your disdain for the propaganda surrounding the election, though this has the added concern of Ukip and the like potentially getting their own way regarding Europe. While I don't support the EU in its current form as such, withdrawal from the EU will affect the lives of workers who are currently living outside their home nation. It would be catastrophic not only for immigrants within the EU, but also British people in mainland Europe who will presumably have to return back to the UK. If Ukip (and indeed, the likes of No2EU) get their way, workers' families will be completely ripped apart. As somebody who lives in another country myself and constantly worry about being granted a visa (and with a non-EU wife whom does not speak English, so could never move to the UK), it is a fear I can relate with.

Completely opposed to bourgeois elections and won't be voting, but the electoral rise of the far right in the UK is greatly worrying.

[robbo203]

People here would do well to recall Engels' wise words on the matter...


"In France, where for more than a hundred years the ground has been undermined by one revolution after another, where there is not a single party which has not done its share in conspiracies, insurrections and all other revolutionary actions; in France, where, as a result, the government is by no means sure of the army and where the conditions for an insurrectionary coup de main are altogether far more favourable than in Germany — even in France the Socialists are realising more and more that no lasting victory is possible for them unless they first win over the great mass of the people, i.e. the peasants in this instance. Slow propaganda work and parliamentary activity are recognised here, too, as the immediate tasks of the party. ....

The irony of world history turns everything upside down. We, the "revolutionaries", the "overthrowers" — we are thriving far better on legal methods than on illegal methods and overthrow. The parties of order, as they call themselves, are perishing under the legal conditions created by themselves....

The franchise has been, in the words of the French Marxist programme, transformé de moyen de duperie qu'il a été jusquici en instrument d'emancipation — transformed by them from a means of deception, which it was before, into an instrument of emancipation. And if universal suffrage had offered no other advantage than that it allowed us to count our numbers every three years; that by the regularly established, unexpectedly rapid rise in our vote it increased in equal measure the workers’ certainty of victory and the dismay of their opponents, and so became our best means of propaganda; that it accurately informed us of our own strength and that of all opposing parties, and thereby provided us with a measure of proportion second to none for our actions, safeguarding us from untimely timidity as much as from untimely foolhardiness — if this had been the only advantage we gained from the suffrage, it would still have been much more than enough....

Does the reader now understand, why the ruling classes decidedly want to bring us to where the guns shoot and the sabers slash? Why they accuse us today of cowardice, because we do not betake ourselves without more ado into the street, where we are certain of defeat in advance? Why they so earnestly implore us to play for once the part of cannon fodder?

The gentlemen pour out their prayers and their challenges for nothing, for nothing at all. We are not so stupid. They might just as well demand from their enemy in the next war that he should take up his position in the line formation of old Fritz, or in the columns of whole divisions a la Wagram and Waterloo, and with the flintlock in his hands at that. If the conditions have changed in the case of war between nations, this is no less true in the case of the class struggle. The time of surprise attacks, of revolutions carried through by small conscious minorities at the head of unconscious masses, is past. Where it is a question of a complete transformation of the social organization, the masses themselves must also be in it, must themselves already have grasped what is at stake, what they are going in for [with body and soul]. The history of the last fifty years has taught us that. But in order that the masses may understand what is to be done, long, persistent work is required, and it is just this work which we are now pursuing, and with a success which drives the enemy to despair. " (my bold)

(1895 Introduction to Karl Marx’s The Class Struggles in France 1848 to 1850)

[Per Levy]

People here would do well to recall Engels' wise words on the matter...

and forget the entire 20th century? forget what happen 1914? the partys engels supportet in his last years all betrayed the working class. should that be forgotten too?

the parliament cant be a tool of emancipation and it proves it again and again and again. not to mention that, unlike to engels times, there arnt any mass working class partys anymore, the small left sects are all absoloute unimportent and play no role whatsoever.

[robbo203]

and forget the entire 20th century? forget what happen 1914? the partys engels supportet in his last years all betrayed the working class. should that be forgotten too?

the parliament cant be a tool of emancipation and it proves it again and again and again. not to mention that, unlike to engels times, there arnt any mass working class partys anymore, the small left sects are all absoloute unimportent and play no role whatsoever.

Yes the SPD proved a massive disappointment and gave up on socialism in the end but that does not disprove what Engels was saying in the least. (Actually Engels was becoming increasingly critical of the SPD and its growing authoritarianism/elitism/vanguardism in later years as his correspondence shows)

You are confusing two quite different things - parliament or the franchise as a tool and the ends to which that tool is used. It was not because the SPD used parliamentary methods that it "betrayed the working class". Thats just nonsense. It betrayed the working class because , along with the maximum or revolutionary programme, it adopted a minimum or reformist programme which inevitably over time crowded out the maximum programme through the efforts of people like Bernstein and so resulted finally in the party becoming a purely reformist and thus pro-capitalist party. Inevitably that meant betraying its working class supporters since there is only one way in which you can operate capitalism and that is in the interest of capital and against the interests of the exploited majority.

It astonishes me that so many on the Left continue to make this elementary blunder of confusing the method advocated with the purpose for which it is to be used - even to the point of dubbing electoralism as "reformism"

[Thirsty Crow]

You are confusing two quite different things - parliament or the franchise as a tool and the ends to which that tool is used. It was not because the SPD used parliamentary methods that it "betrayed the working class". Thats just nonsense. It betrayed the working class because , along with the maximum or revolutionary programme, it adopted a minimum or reformist programme which inevitably over time crowded out the maximum programme through the efforts of people like Bernstein and so resulted finally in the party becoming a purely reformist and thus pro-capitalist party. Inevitably that meant betraying its working class supporters since there is only one way in which you can operate capitalism and that is in the interest of capital and against the interests of the exploited majority.

The adoption and the functioning of the minimum programme cannot be separated from the parliamentary platform and what this brought on to the party in terms of tendencies it strengthened (along the whole host of other severe problems with historical social democracy).

This I believe is the most likely outcome of standing in elections (in terms of tendencies strengthened; not some "omg betrayal of the class omg") as an unreflected tactics, one which through tradition even becomes uncritically embraced.

You view this in the framework of the distinction between the tool and the end; I claim here that your tool is unfit for the end.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

voted labour in local elections and spoiled ballot in the european elections, would never vote for one of the bourgoeis parties at a national/european level.

[robbo203]

The adoption and the functioning of the minimum programme cannot be separated from the parliamentary platform and what this brought on to the party in terms of tendencies it strengthened (along the whole host of other severe problems with historical social democracy).
.

I dont agree. You might find this pamphlet which looks into the arguments for and against the revolutionary use of parliament, to be of interest.

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/pamphlets/whats-wrong-using-parliament

Realistically, if you propose to democratically capture state power there is no other option on the cards. That is not, of course, to preclude extra parliamentary forms of activity to supplement the parliamentary approach but not as an alternative to that approach

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I dont agree. You might find this pamphlet which looks into the arguments for and against the revolutionary use of parliament, to be of interest.

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/pamphlets/whats-wrong-using-parliament

Realistically, if you propose to democratically capture state power there is no other option on the cards. That is not, of course, to preclude extra parliamentary forms of activity to supplement the parliamentary approach but not as an alternative to that approach

I thought the SPGBs approach was not to capture state power but to have a majority of workers voting for socialism?

[Thirsty Crow]

I dont agree. You might find this pamphlet which looks into the arguments for and against the revolutionary use of parliament, to be of interest.
You're under the impression that all it takes to discuss this is post a didactic, if useful, pamphlet on the general platform of the SPGB when I'm putting forward an argument concerning the historical experience of social democracy. It doesn't work this way.


Realistically, if you propose to democratically capture state power there is no other option on the cards.You're completely right, but the thing is the democratic capture of state power is not what I advocate, and at the same time I sure as hell don't advocate a party-state dictatorship over the working class. You'd better resort to some other framework than this useless dichotomy.


That is not, of course, to preclude extra parliamentary forms of activity to supplement the parliamentary approach but not as an alternative to that approachOf course, thus we have the same old situation, that of independent working class struggles being channeled into voter support for a political party - with the difference that SPGB eliminates one of the perceived basis of degeneration, that of minimum programme, which on its own also poses serious problems and consequences.

[Sam_b]

I voted to stop (or try to stop) UKIP getting a seat in Scotland. Couldn't care otherwise.

Edit: you've put the Lib Dems on a poll in Revleft? lol

[robbo203]

I thought the SPGBs approach was not to capture state power but to have a majority of workers voting for socialism?


Yes the SPGB's view is that it sees itself simply as a tool for the working class to use with which to capture state power and abolish capitalism. Once that capture of state power has been effected the SPGB goes out of existence which makes it uniquely (probably) the only political party actively seeking its own demise

[PhoenixAsh]

Well....our "libdems" became the largest party right behind the Christians.

They said the Dutch population chose overwhelmingly for Europe. With a voter turnout of less than 33% this is a weird statement in itself. But he also meant they chose overwhelmingly for their party. With only 15,9% of the votes of the 13 million voters by the way. Which means far less than 700k voters elected their party. Which is only 4% of the Dutch population.

That said.

10% voted for the Socialist Party (Somewhat of left Social Democrats with a Marxist past) and the PVV got 12,3% and lost. But all in all that is 22,3% votes for the not so very pro-EU parties.

Which means an absolute minority of only 19,8% of the Dutch population voted for Europe. Which leaves only a very, very slim political mandate.

[robbo203]

You're under the impression that all it takes to discuss this is post a didactic, if useful, pamphlet on the general platform of the SPGB when I'm putting forward an argument concerning the historical experience of social democracy. It doesn't work this way.

But the historical experience of social democracy is not the historical experience of the SPGB and other impossibilists. The fatal error of social democracy was its embrace of a reformist minimum programme. That is what led - inevitably - to its abandoment of socialism , not its use of the parliamentary method as such



You're completely right, but the thing is the democratic capture of state power is not what I advocate, and at the same time I sure as hell don't advocate a party-state dictatorship over the working class. You'd better resort to some other framework than this useless dichotomy.

Well , though I am not a member I can tell you that the SPGB sure as hell does not advocate a "party-state dictatorship over the working class". either! It advocates the abolition of the working class (wage slavery), the abolition of capitalism and the abolition of the SPGB itself just as soon as the working using the SPGB as a tool, establishes socialism. But the point remains that the state has somehow to be captured in order to be eliminated along with the rule of capital. If you dont advocate the democratic capture of state power how are you going to capture state power in that case? Or dont you advocate the capture of state power at all? In which case how do you deal with the capitalist state? Its not going to disappear for your convenience



Of course, thus we have the same old situation, that of independent working class struggles being channeled into voter support for a political party - with the difference that SPGB eliminates one of the perceived basis of degeneration, that of minimum programme, which on its own also poses serious problems and consequences.


Now its you who is making the false dichotomy. Advocating the parliamentary or electoral approach does not mean forsaking independent working class struggles

[Left Voice]

The first results are trickling through, and they make pretty alarming reading for comrades. Most of our fears have been confirmed.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27531094

As expected, the anti-EA, anti-immigrant, 'they took our jobs' UKIP have won loads of seats. More worryingly, most of these seats are coming from working class areas, winning seats in Labour strongholds. I have no love for the Labour Party, but it's the implications that concern me - a shift to the right in the working class, in traditionally left/unionised regions of the country such as the north east.

I don't think that these are mere protest votes, I think that people are actually subscribing to the anti-immigrant rhetoric coming from UKIP. If this is the case, it represents a failure of the left at large.

Slightly more positive is the progress of comrades at Left Unity, who are reportedly coming third in some places, above the Conservatives. Not bad for a new party.
http://leftunity.org/local-election-results/
I have my own issues with Left Unity. The fact that the party is pretty much controlled by its right wing at the moment, and are destined to recreate old Labour rather than anything truly socialist. The only hope for Left Unity is the CPGB and its Communist Platform.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Yes the SPGB's view is that it sees itself simply as a tool for the working class to use with which to capture state power and abolish capitalism. Once that capture of state power has been effected the SPGB goes out of existence which makes it uniquely (probably) the only political party actively seeking its own demise

Do you not think it's a bit naive to put that much trust in a party that says once it achieves power it will just...give it all up?

Especially as the character of a party like the SPGB would be likely to be completely different if it was a genuine & powerful mass party, rather than a tiny grupuscule as it is now.

[Left Voice]

They would hardly be the first revolutionary socialist party to nominally seek their own demise after the working class takes power, only to then retain power in order to 'protect the revolution'.

Again, the 20th century tells us this.

[robbo203]

Do you not think it's a bit naive to put that much trust in a party that says once it achieves power it will just...give it all up?

Especially as the character of a party like the SPGB would be likely to be completely different if it was a genuine & powerful mass party, rather than a tiny grupuscule as it is now.


I think the one thing you have to give the SPGB credit is that it has stuck uncompromisingly to its own position for over a century. It has effectively institutionalised within itself the belief that the capture of state power will indeed signify the end of capitalism and the end of the SPGB itself and has recruited members on the basis of that understanding. It has never once argued that it exists in order to do something "for" the workers. It has consistently argued that the workers have to emancipate themselves and the SPGB is just a tool for that purpose.

Plus it remains probably the most democratic political organisation anywhere where the membership control the organisation and not some leadership - the same membership recruited on the basis of the kind of understanding indcated above

These two factors lead me to believe that we are probably talking about something that is relatively unique in historical terms and for which reason it is not legitimate to draw on the experience of other suppoisedly working class parties which have turned out to be reformist and leadership based parties

[brigadista]

Didn't vote for the same reasons as Devrim but I'm reading it was a35% voter turnout which means most people registered to vote didn't .....???

[Quail]

I didn't vote.

[Left Voice]

^Be curious to see how many people actually did vote in Sheffield this time after so many people were burned by fibber Clegg.

[Zukunftsmusik]

I'm a Communist, so I vote for Communists.

(well... I'm also American so I don't vote in Euro elections)

So what woud you vote for in a European Parliament election, if you could? I can understand (but don't support) the sentiment of your comment, but in this context it doesn't really make much sense and comes off as pretty uninformed. Which is fair, I guess, cause it's most likely a jab at Devrim, but I'd love to see a clear reasoning behind "[voting] for Communists" in the Euro election, which party you would have voted for and why.

[Zanthorus]

Didn't vote for the same reasons as Devrim but I'm reading it was a35% voter turnout which means most people registered to vote didn't .....???

Voter turnouts for Local and European elections are usually low because most people are either apathetic or don't really know what local councillors and MEP's actually do. My parents voted but they both admitted they didn't really know what it was they were actually voting for. I think even the big parties mostly saw these elections as a barometer of public feeling prior to the general election rather than important in themselves. A lot of the campaign videos talked about immigration and staying in or out of the EU, things that could only be affected by a national government.

I went along out of interest. It was fairly underwhelming, you just hand them your voter registration card, put a cross on a piece of paper and stuff it in a box. It's amazing how much mythos people have built up around the whole process.

[Q]

The exit poll (official results will be made public on Sunday) for the Netherlands are:

D66 (Liberals): 15,6% (up from 11,3% in 2009) - From 3 to 4 seats
CDA (Christian-Democrats): 15,2% (down from 20,1% in 2009) - From 5 to 4 seats
VVD (Conservatives): 12,3% (up from 11,4% in 2009) - Keeps 3 seats
PVV (Far right party of Geert Wilders): 12,2% (down from 17% in 2009) - From 5 to 3 seats :)
Socialist Party: 10% (up from 7,1% in 2009) - From 2 to 3 seats
PvdA (Social-Democracy): 9,4% (down from 12% in 2009) - Keeps 3 seats
ChristenUnie/SGP (Christian fundamentalists): 7,8% (up from 6,8% in 2009) - Keeps 2 seats
GroenLinks (Greens): 7,4% (down from 8,9% in 2009) - From 3 to 2 seats
Partij voor de Dieren (Animal rights party): 4,2% (up from 3,5% in 2009) - From 0 to 1 seat
50PLUS (party for elderly people): 4,2% (First time participant) - 1 seat
Other: 1,1% (down from 1,5% in 2009)
Pirate Party: 0,7% (? in 2009)

There are 26 Dutch MEP's. Turnout was 37% (http://nos.nl/artikel/651130-opkomst-toch-hoger-dan-in-2009.html).

Source (http://nos.nl/artikel/651449-de-definitieve-prognose-in-kaart.html).

[Rosa Partizan]

Voter turnouts for Local and European elections are usually low because most people are either apathetic or don't really know what local councillors and MEP's actually do. My parents voted but they both admitted they didn't really know what it was they were actually voting for. I think even the big parties mostly saw these elections as a barometer of public feeling prior to the general election rather than important in themselves. A lot of the campaign videos talked about immigration and staying in or out of the EU, things that could only be affected by a national government.

I went along out of interest. It was fairly underwhelming, you just hand them your voter registration card, put a cross on a piece of paper and stuff it in a box. It's amazing how much mythos people have built up around the whole process.

yeah, but did you expect something else? Last year, I voted at the government elections for the first time ever, since I hadn't had German citizenship before. I was rather euphoric, but still did know how this would proceed and that voting itself is no big deal.

[Leonid Brozhnev]

I didn't vote, I have no idea where my card is. I don't think I would even if I had it, the political situation in this country is pretty depressing.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The exit poll (official results will be made public on Sunday) for the Netherlands are:

D66 (Liberals): 15,6% (up from 11,3% in 2009) - From 3 to 4 seats
CDA (Christian-Democrats): 15,2% (down from 20,1% in 2009) - From 5 to 4 seats
VVD (Conservatives): 12,3% (up from 11,4% in 2009) - Keeps 3 seats
PVV (Far right party of Geert Wilders): 12,2% (down from 17% in 2009) - From 5 to 3 seats :)
Socialist Party: 10% (up from 7,1% in 2009) - From 2 to 3 seats
PvdA (Social-Democracy): 9,4% (down from 12% in 2009) - Keeps 3 seats
ChristenUnie/SGP (Christian fundamentalists): 7,8% (up from 6,8% in 2009) - Keeps 2 seats
GroenLinks (Greens): 7,4% (down from 8,9% in 2009) - From 3 to 2 seats
Partij voor de Dieren (Animal rights party): 4,2% (up from 3,5% in 2009) - From 0 to 1 seat
50PLUS (party for elderly people): 4,2% (First time participant) - 1 seat
Other: 1,1% (down from 1,5% in 2009)
Pirate Party: 0,7% (? in 2009)

There are 26 Dutch MEP's. Turnout was 37% (http://nos.nl/artikel/651130-opkomst-toch-hoger-dan-in-2009.html).

Source (http://nos.nl/artikel/651449-de-definitieve-prognose-in-kaart.html).

The Dutch SP went up, I suppose.

[Q]

The Dutch SP went up, I suppose.
How observant :p

While I called explicitly for not voting for the SP before the elections, due to their programme, I coupled that call with a call for waging a fight for a different kind of programme in the SP.

Yesterday I was invited to speak on a 'socialism day', an annual event to discuss politics organised by an SP branch, where I spoke about Europe and explained the context of my call for a non-vote. I also explained that we needed an opposition and the idea was very well received I think.

That said, this was just one branch (not my own) and the tricky part here is linking people up over the whole country. This will be our next hurdle regarding SP work for the next period to come.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I think the one thing you have to give the SPGB credit is that it has stuck uncompromisingly to its own position for over a century.

I would both praise and criticise this position.



It has effectively institutionalised within itself the belief that the capture of state power will indeed signify the end of capitalism and the end of the SPGB itself and has recruited members on the basis of that understanding. It has never once argued that it exists in order to do something "for" the workers. It has consistently argued that the workers have to emancipate themselves and the SPGB is just a tool for that purpose.

As noble as this is, the SPGB has never come close to holding any form of political power, let alone wielding the apparatus of a powerful national state, so we would really have to hold judgement on whether the SPGB would maintain such a principled stance were it to actually have a chance of wielding state power. The evidence is all there that when parties of all shades get a sniff of power, their principles tend to start to drift. They cannot escape the system within which they exist.


Plus it remains probably the most democratic political organisation anywhere where the membership control the organisation and not some leadership - the same membership recruited on the basis of the kind of understanding indcated above

You'll forgive me for repeating my criticisms from above - it remains unseen as to whether the SPGB would be able to hold onto its democratic structures were it to become a mass party, or even a party of 10,000 or 20,000 people.

[Devrim]

Didn't vote for the same reasons as Devrim but I'm reading it was a35% voter turnout which means most people registered to vote didn't .....???

I think that these figures make it quite clear that the left has more illusions in electorialism, and social democracy than the vast majority of the working class do. What might be an interesting figure that you rarely see in Europe is how many people who are eligible are actually registered to vote. I'm sure that there are actually quite a lot, which would make the turnout figures look even worse.

Another figure that we rarely see is the number of spoilt ballots, which makes those who actually go to the polls, and then don't vote look even more ridiculous. They figures for spoilt ballots may be available somewhere, but they are certainly not reported upon. It leaves them hidden somewhere alongside people like my mentally handicapped brother, who when instructed by my father who to vote for, came back and proudly announced to the old man that he couldn't read the form, so he voted for all of them, just to be sure he got the right one.

On reflection, this is probably where they belong.

Devrim

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Abstain: I am a communist. I don't vote in bourgeois elections.

Devrim

Lenin, Trotsky, Eugene Debs and Freddy Engels would beg to differ. Its true that its not possible to "elect" socialism, but on the other hand political campaigns can be an important tool for workers parties.The poor showing of Labour in the UK seems to show a rejection of social democratic parties.

[vijaya]

I didn't vote, I have no idea where my card is. I don't think I would even if I had it, the political situation in this country is pretty depressing.

You actually don't need your card, all you need is to say your name and have ID and they will look you up on the electoral roll :)

I voted for the Green Party, because in 2009 the BNP's Nick Griffin became on of my region's MEPs by winning over the Greens by 0.7%!! So I voted for Greens to oust Griffin and to get the only decently leftist party with a chance in.

[Left Voice]

Reports of the demise of the Labour Party would appear to be premature.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t1.0-9/p180x540/1969412_10152469909221122_8754009880785892369_n.jp g

Of course, that doesn't necessarily imply support for social democracy, or whatever New Labour are pretending to be these days.

[vijaya]

Reports of the demise of the Labour Party would appear to be premature.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t1.0-9/p180x540/1969412_10152469909221122_8754009880785892369_n.jp g

Of course, that doesn't necessarily imply support for social democracy, or whatever New Labour are pretending to be these days.

I can certainly see where some commentators are coming from when they give attention to UKIP because it does show, to some extent, a massive shift to the right in English politics (Scotland are p*ssing themselves laughing at the confused and reactionary attitude festering in the South of England at the minute). Let's just hope most of this UKIP madness is just people's disgruntlement with politics manifested in a populist rhetoric and NOT the dangerous precursor to a darker reactionary politics that echoes 1930s Europe.

[The Idler]

Do you not think it's a bit naive to put that much trust in a party that says once it achieves power it will just...give it all up?

Especially as the character of a party like the SPGB would be likely to be completely different if it was a genuine & powerful mass party, rather than a tiny grupuscule as it is now.
'Power' is not exclusively a parliamentary majority of a particular party. This is the parliamentarism fallacy. A small SPGB could try and hang on but workers in charge of society would likely give the party short shrift in these circumstances. The notion of the party holding power is substitutionist.

[Left Voice]

UKIP got the majority of the vote in the European elections - 28%, higher than both Labour and the Conservatives. This is seriously chilling news if people have no qualms with voting for a racist cyrypto-fascist party.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/may/26/ukip-european-elections-political-earthquake

Frustratingly, the SWP-run Unite Against Fascism have been so busy rejoicing the fact that Nick Griffin have lost his seat that they've overlooked the overall massive gains for the far right.

[freecommunist]

Didn't vote and capitalism won like every other election there has been.

[Devrim]

Lenin, Trotsky, Eugene Debs and Freddy Engels would beg to differ.

Of course, it would be absolutely horrifying for most self-professed communists to admit that perhaps they might have had it wrong. Leaving this terrible possibility aside for a moment though, the world has changed somewhat in the last century.


Its true that its not possible to "elect" socialism, but on the other hand political campaigns can be an important tool for workers parties.

Oh, so it is the campaign itself now. At least you are not arguing for Lenin's revolutionary parlimentarism. Anybody arguing that the European parliament could be used as a tribune for anything would be absurd.


The poor showing of Labour in the UK seems to show a rejection of social democratic parties.

I don't think that it is that a terrible showing for the Labour Party. First they have made gains. Second it is well known that Labour's voters have a tendency to stay away from European elections. Nobody except the UKIP themselves think that this vote will translate to even a single seat in the UK parliament in next years general elections.

People are not so much rejecting social democratic parties, but alienated from the whole political process.

Devrim

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

UKIP got the majority of the vote in the European elections - 28%, higher than both Labour and the Conservatives. This is seriously chilling news if people have no qualms with voting for a racist cyrypto-fascist party.

The UKIP are not crypto-fascist, and they're as racist as the Conservatives or Labour, although they're refreshingly open about it. And, of course, the European Parliament elections primarily attracted people who are passionate about staying in the EU (pretty much no one) or those who are opposed to it (including most of the UKIP's constituency).

Now can we please stop pretending this election makes any difference even in the context of bourgie politics?

[Hit The North]

Frustratingly, the SWP-run Unite Against Fascism have been so busy rejoicing the fact that Nick Griffin have lost his seat that they've overlooked the overall massive gains for the far right.

Why do you have to lie in order to score cheap party-political points? Both the Socialist Worker and the UAF website are carrying prominent stories highlighting the move to the right in Europe:

Socialist Worker (http://socialistworker.co.uk/)

UAF (http://uaf.org.uk/2014/05/nazi-nick-griffin-has-gonebut-europe-is-a-warning-to-all-of-us/)

Meanwhile, I note that a visit to the SPGB website (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/) or to the contents of the latest edition of Socialist Standard (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2014/no-1317-may-2014) has absolutely nothing to say to workers who are looking for an analysis of the right wing electoral surge.

[Hit The North]

It has consistently argued that the workers have to emancipate themselves and the SPGB is just a tool for that purpose.


Please explain how the chronically small and abstentionist SPGB is a tool for the workers to emancipate themselves.

What will be the SPGB's function during a revolutionary period?

[Црвена]

I can't vote obviously, but if I could I would either vote SPGB or abstain. I don't think real socialism/communism could be democratically elected, I think it will take real revolution, but at the same time I wouldn't want to throw away a voting opportunity.

And Labour are a load of petty-bourgeois liars. Just putting that out there :)

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Anybody arguing that the European parliament could be used as a tribune for anything would be absurd.


Paul Murphy, MEP from Ireland, has done important work




Paul is the Socialist Party MEP for Dublin, and a leading critic and active campaigner against the government and Troika’s austerity agenda and the undermining of democratic rights. He replaced Joe Higgins in 2011 after his election to the Dail. Paul will be supporting the Anti Austerity Alliance candidates in the 2014 local elections. He has used the platform of the European Parliament to expose the undemocratic austerity agenda being pushed through, challenging Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso and Taoiseach Enda Kenny. While the political and media establishment have accepted austerity as being a ‘necessary evil’, Paul has continually exposed how it is a weapon for the super-rich against working people. In the debate on the ‘Austerity Treaty’ in May 2012, Paul Murphy played a leading role on the No side. Described as “probably the most articulate advocate on the No side” by the Irish Times’ Deaglan De Breadun, through numerous media appearances, the production of his pamphlet and street campaigning, he exposed how this Treaty institutionalised austerity policies and undermined democratic rights. Paul is an active fighter against the austerity agenda – playing a leading role in the campaign against home taxes, such as the household tax, property tax and water charges. He has highlighted the harsh impact of austerity policies on people with disabilities and assisted them in their struggles, participating in protests and initiating a debate in the European Parliament in order to highlight that reality. He has also brought the fight for abortion rights in Ireland into the European Parliament


Its possible that Paul Murphy has saved lives by campaigning against and publiciozing brutal regimes in Sri Lanka and Kazakhstan.

http://www.paulmurphymep.eu/about-paul/

Unfortunately it looks like he will be defeated by SWP sectarianism. Good one Cliffites!

Yes the EU parliament is toothless but I don;t agree that participation in the elections is useless.


People are not so much rejecting social democratic parties, but alienated from the whole political process.

I don't disagree with this. The problem is the failure (or small size) of the forces of the left.

[ProletariatPower]

Where I live there were basically no Left Wing parties standing apart from the Green Party. The only other remotely reasonable options were the Lib Dems and Labour, I despise all of them. There were about 4 or 5 Far Right parties which was extremely depressing to see, particularly when it's your first ever vote. Now we know the results, it's hardly lifted my mood at all...

[Devrim]

Paul Murphy, MEP from Ireland, has done important work

Please forgive me for taking so much time to reply whilst I was laughing. Let us just see what Paul Murphy has done in the European parliament:


He has used the platform of the European Parliament to expose the undemocratic austerity agenda being pushed through, challenging Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso and Taoiseach Enda Kenny... He has highlighted the harsh impact of austerity policies on people with disabilities and assisted them in their struggles, participating in protests and initiating a debate in the European Parliament in order to highlight that reality. He has also brought the fight for abortion rights in Ireland into the European Parliament.

Now as you are a North American, you may not know how much influence the European Parliament actually has. The answer is very simple; None whatsoever. It has no legislative powers at all, and is rarely even heard about. I'd presume that very few people actually heard about this 'important' work he did in the European Parliament except those that read about it in 'The Socialist'.


I don't disagree with this. The problem is the failure (or small size) of the forces of the left.

No it is not. The problem is the weakness of the working class.

Devrim

[Per Levy]

Yes the EU parliament is toothless but I don;t agree that participation in the elections is useless.

its not that the eu parliament is toothless, wich it is, the point is it is completly unimportent and no one gives a shit about it or all that much about the elections themselfs wich are widly more seen as a political barometer more then anything. devrim is right, nothing gets reported out of the eu parliament, and it plays no role until the next elections.

also i think the participation in elections is a failed and useless tactic.

[The Idler]

Why do you have to lie in order to score cheap party-political points? Both the Socialist Worker and the UAF website are carrying prominent stories highlighting the move to the right in Europe:

Socialist Worker (http://socialistworker.co.uk/)

UAF (http://uaf.org.uk/2014/05/nazi-nick-griffin-has-gonebut-europe-is-a-warning-to-all-of-us/)

Meanwhile, I note that a visit to the SPGB website (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/) or to the contents of the latest edition of Socialist Standard (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2014/no-1317-may-2014) has absolutely nothing to say to workers who are looking for an analysis of the right wing electoral surge.
Its been one day since the results came out.

Please explain how the chronically small and abstentionist SPGB is a tool for the workers to emancipate themselves.

What will be the SPGB's function during a revolutionary period?
What is a 'revolutionary period', is it street demos that get 'messy'?

[Hit The North]

Its been one day since the results came out.


And yet the SWP and UAF, who you accuse of ignoring the shift to the right because they're too busy celebrating the demise of Griffin, have managed to post articles on their websites dealing with this very thing!

How long does the SPGB need before it can muster its forces and deploy an opinion? I guess the working class willl have to wait for next month's Socialist Standard. Can't wait :bored:

What is a 'revolutionary period', is it street demos that get 'messy'?


No it's holding polite elections in Wandsworth or whatever. "A vote for the SPGB is a vote for yourself." Meh.

[Scheveningen]

Now as you are a North American, you may not know how much influence the European Parliament actually has. The answer is very simple; None whatsoever. Notwithstanding the fact that parliamentary 'struggles' are (mostly) useless, saying that the European Parliament has no power is just wrong. Jointly with the Council of the EU, it has exclusive legislative authority on a number of matters, and can pass regulations which are immediately enforceable in all Member States. I'd say that, in some policy areas, it's at least as 'influential' as national parliaments.

[Rottenfruit]

And yet the SWP and UAF, who you accuse of ignoring the shift to the right because they're too busy celebrating the demise of Griffin, have managed to post articles on their websites dealing with this very thing!

How long does the SPGB need before it can muster its forces and deploy an opinion? I guess the working class willl have to wait for next month's Socialist Standard. Can't wait :bored:


No it's holding polite elections in Wandsworth or whatever. "A vote for the SPGB is a vote for yourself." Meh.
fuck the swp, scumbag sexists who support rape

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Notwithstanding the fact that parliamentary 'struggles' are (mostly) useless, saying that the European Parliament has no power is just wrong. Jointly with the Council of the EU, it has exclusive legislative authority on a number of matters, and can pass regulations which are immediately enforceable in all Member States. I'd say that, in some policy areas, it's at least as 'influential' as national parliaments.

Bah, time in Brussel's just a tremendously well-paid holiday where they can get bribes by all the sassy lobbyists. It's very... American. The parliament has some power, but it does not originate in the election either way (and that notwithstanding that elections are always wrong).

[Scheveningen]

Bah, time in Brussel's just a tremendously well-paid holiday where they can get bribes by all the sassy lobbyists. It's very... American. Very parliamentary, more like.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Very parliamentary, more like.

The EU can be a lot of things, but "very parliamentary" is not it.

[The Idler]

And yet the SWP and UAF, who you accuse of ignoring the shift to the right because they're too busy celebrating the demise of Griffin, have managed to post articles on their websites dealing with this very thing!

I haven't accused the SWP and UAF of any such thing here.

[Hit The North]

I haven't accused the SWP and UAF of any such thing here.

Apologies, it was Left Voice who made the comment :o

[Comrade Jacob]

Well UKIP won FPP.

[Left Voice]

I was going by the fact the SWP/UAF on their Facebook pages have been continuously posting about Griffin losing his seat - who was always going to lose his seat and the BNP only held 3 seats anyway, when I felt they should have paid more attention to the 157 seat gain for UKIP. Farage is more of a threat than Griffin because the public don't see Farage as the racist he is.

Sorry if you see that as factionalist cheap shots.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I'd vote for Wallace and Grommet. Because that is the immediate thing that comes to my American mind when I think of England.