Utopian socialism

[Kill all the fetuses!]

From my experience, all the conversations with people who aren't familiar with radical politics generally go through 2 stages:

1. Communism is bad, because Stalin killed like a gazilion of people.
2. Communism is just a utopia.

I generally find it easy to get over the first one, but the second one is rather difficult, partly because people are disillusioned and think that it's impossible to change anything.

But regardless of the reasons for that, how do you or would you deal with the second objection?

[Loony Le Fist]

...
But regardless of the reasons for that, how do you or would you deal with the second objection?

I would disagree with the idea that communism is necessarily a utopian system. You are going to have free-riders in any economic system. It isn't a challenge unique to any particular solution to the basic economic problem. It's something you simply must accept as a reality.

So let's take Honest Tea as an example. They set up a stand in many different cities and had tea left out for anyone to take, and a kiosk to accept payments. What they found was that 93% of the time, people were honest and payed for the tea. A 7% shrink level isn't bad. Panera did something like that with a pay-what-you-can restaurant concept and got similar results.

It is a fact that most people are honest. That is why capitalism works and is so successful at concentrating wealth. It rewards those most cunning and willing to deceive the majority of honest hardworking people. When you look at the free-rider problem that way, it's clear capitalism creates the far bigger free-rider problem. So why have a system set up to reward dishonesty when you don't have to?

I see communism/socialism as practical solutions to the problem of immoral behavior being rewarded, not as utopian fantasies.

[Christian Insurrectionist]

If it was me, I'd point to groups that might not have been communists as such, but rather had communistic tendencies and start the conversation that way. When I talk to other Christians about communism, I usually use the Diggers as a go to example because they don't have the fat heresy sticker that other Christian communist groups had.

But honestly? If it's a hard-headed person, they might not be open to changing their minds in the first place - my right-wing uncle is utterly convinced that liberalism is communism for example. It's better to lead by example and show these concepts in your everyday life than to argue with people who aren't open to changing their mind on communism.

[Comrade Jacob]

1. Pretending that that's true that would mean Stalin was bad not an ideology of justice.
2. It could be called a 'utopia' in by some in some definition of the word, but Engels talked about this brah.

[ckaihatsu]

2. Communism is just a utopia.


This is a very real stereotype that even affects revolutionary leftists, almost as much as the general public -- while non-communists will invoke 'utopia' in a *dismissive* way, revolutionaries tend to internalize 'utopia' as a kind of 'beyond-the-finish-line', to where the achievement of communism would be like walking through the gates of heaven, with everyone living happily ever after.

I mean to say that because of the 'utopia' internalization many become unable to think *materialistically* about a post-capitalist society -- like the physical laws of the universe would just break down at that point, melting into a lump of wax or something.

It's at *this* point where we're at, that we should be able to describe what is *needed*, as specifically and as clearly as possible, so that we actually make sense, to *cut against* the knee-jerk fairyland conception of 'utopia' associated with communism.

[Tim Cornelis]

Use real examples, even though this is flawed (as none of them are communist examples, but if all these features are combined it is).

Marinaleda: proves direct democracy in politics and economics can be effective and efficient (Marinaleda, lowest unemployment rate, about 3% versus 30% in Andalusia, and one of the few municipalities without deficit).
Objection: it's small scale. (also, supposedly sustained by EU subsidies)
Counter-argument: Landless Workers' Movement; Mondragon Corporation

Mondragon Corporation: shows workers can run production themselves on a large scale. Hundreds of workers' cooperatives corroborate this as well (though they're often small-scale).

Landless Workers' Movement: proves decentralised egalitarian decision-making can work on a large-scale (1.5 million members). The MST operates quite effectively and has organised a network of basic healthcare and education and local sports events, despite most members being poor and lowly educated.
Objection: the MST is a movement, not a society, it exists within the context of a bourgeois state.
Counter argument: Zapatista Councils of Good Government

Zapatista Councils of Good Government: proves decentralised egalitarian decision-making can work on a relatively large scale (circa 200,000 people) despite numerous obstacles: different languages, dialects, crushing poverty, drug smuggling, a hostile government, underdeveloped (communication) infrastructure, etc.

Nanjie village: shows money is not necessary in a modern industrialised society.
Objection: crushing debt, exploited migrant labour to sustain it, social hierarchy and a class system.
Counter-argument: this wouldn't exist if the whole world was moneyless. Vertical collectivism is not required (see examples above).

Cuban wage system of the 1970s-80s: shows egalitarian distribution of income is not detrimental to people wanting to become doctors, teachers, etc., in fact there was a shortage of manual labourers despite wage disparity being virtually non-existent.

[tuwix]

From my experience, all the conversations with people who aren't familiar with radical politics generally go through 2 stages:

1. Communism is bad, because Stalin killed like a gazilion of people.
2. Communism is just a utopia.

I generally find it easy to get over the first one, but the second one is rather difficult, partly because people are disillusioned and think that it's impossible to change anything.

But regardless of the reasons for that, how do you or would you deal with the second objection?

I'd show them such movie with English subtitle which are available:

E88gOuI3XJQ

Besides I'd sat about Kibutz system in Israel. There are some cooperatives where people for dozens years don't see money, but cooperatives are working perfectly.