"If you don't like capitalism, why do you own a computer/TV/phone/whatever??"

[ola.]

I can't be the only one that regularly gets these idiotic questions and be told to go live in a cave somewhere, or to go to Cuba or whatever.

Just wondering, do you ever get similar questions thrown at you when you begin to criticize capitalism? How do you personally respond to them?

[Kill all the fetuses!]

Yes, the likes of "Why do you live in the U.S. if Cuba is so great" is like asking would you rather be rapist or rape-victim. And that's ignoring the confusion about the sort of regime Cuba lives under.

But when it comes to that specific question, there's usually massive confusion where computer or anything else come from. It's not capitalism in itself that produces these things or makes them possible, it's technology. Like it's not capitalism that created steam engine, but it's actually steam engine that made capitalism possible. And needless to say, technology is not exclusive to capitalism.

Furthermore, you can respond by saying that the computer, the Internet among many other things weren't invented within the structures of private capitalism, loosely speaking. It was developed by the government so it's actually you who should ask them why they are using computers and the Internet if they don't like the State...

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

"If you don't like slavery why do you wear clothes given to you by your master."

[#FF0000]

"If you don't like feudalism why do you eat the bounty of the lord's fields!?" - the most annoying guy at the ren faire

[DOOM]

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/7/_/4/Job-Creators-Feudalism.jpg

[Jimmie Higgins]

I can't be the only one that regularly gets these idiotic questions and be told to go live in a cave somewhere, or to go to Cuba or whatever.

Just wondering, do you ever get similar questions thrown at you when you begin to criticize capitalism? How do you personally respond to them?

If you don't like worker's then who do you think made your TV and phone and car? Who mined the resources, etc?

People have been making things and producing things long before capitalism, but capitalism can't produce or make anything without workers. All the TVs and so on are built by workers, shipped by workers, made possible by human labor. As a socialist, I don't want people to have austerity (capitalism does that just fine) I want them to enjoy the fruits of our own labor - we should have better stuff, easier stuff, more useful stuff.

Capitalism doesn't do anything but concentrate wealth. Capitalists don't invent, they hire scientists to do research - they tell them what to research and if their research doesn't go to increasing profits, then that research ends or is shelved and they are sent to look into developing something else. Capitalists don't produce, they hire labor to turn the tech and research and raw materials from other workers into commodities.

[bropasaran]

When you get that you just say- why don't you build your own roads, send your own post, hire private fireman and policeman, provide your own electricity and tap water, test food and medicine on your own, get out of that cycle of dependency you socialistic parasite, if you're against "socialism" so much why do YOU use the cell phone, computer, internet, or digital cameras- those were all developed in the state sector, virtually all modern technological innovation came out of r&d cost of which was socialized.

The first step for people who believe consevative propaganda, I give them to read this: http://raikoth.net/libertarian.html

After they read it and get a little in touch with reality by accepting the facts given there, then we can talk further.

[Always Curious J]

I hear this all the time. Typically I will bring up that rather than some mystical capitalism, it was workers who created the product. Not to mention it would be near impossible not to use something "made by capitalism", considering it is the dominant economic system of the day.. I also usually say something along the lines of, "if you were fighting a war, and you found a stockpile of the enemies weapons, would you leave them there based on principle? Or would you use them to fight the enemy? Exactly, you'd use them to fight the enemy" I can quite recall where I heard that, but I use it all the time.

[Comrade Jacob]

Why did the bourgeois revolutionaries like Cromwell use feudalist-made weapons if he loved capitalism so much?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

If you hate dictatorship so much, why do you wear clothes made in China?

[RedMaterialist]

I can't be the only one that regularly gets these idiotic questions and be told to go live in a cave somewhere, or to go to Cuba or whatever.

Just wondering, do you ever get similar questions thrown at you when you begin to criticize capitalism? How do you personally respond to them?

I own a computer so that I can work to destroy the capitalist class. Just as I would own a shovel to dig their graves.

[Redistribute the Rep]

"If you don't like communism, why do you like AK-47s (invented in the Soviet Union)?"

[Ele'ill]

"there are worse jobs than this"

"look, if you want to have a discussion about this then let's have a discussion but saying a less-than-one-second phrase isn't really going to cut it just as an example if I stabbed you in the stomach right now I could say that there are probably worse stab wounds in the world but you can obviously immediately imagine why that isn't really an end-all statement"

[Thirsty Crow]

I can't be the only one that regularly gets these idiotic questions and be told to go live in a cave somewhere, or to go to Cuba or whatever.

Just wondering, do you ever get similar questions thrown at you when you begin to criticize capitalism? How do you personally respond to them?By laughing out loud and ironically commenting on the fact that I'm not advocating asceticism and actually like stuff.

[mindsword]

If you dislike something, why dont you move to a mountaintop and eat moss for the rest of your life where you can ignore everything until you dislike it so much you commit suicide?

or simplified

if you dislike something, why dont you commit suicide? because something will always exist

our main job is not to avoid stuff, but to change stuff. avoiding stuff can be done if they are not neccesary to complete a task or if they are so evil they have to be avoided. a pc will not exploit workers. or any other inanimate object for that matter.

eating meat is different. meat exploits animals directly. there are however slaughterhouses that dont do it as badly as others. i try to avoid eating meat and animal products all together, but im not perfect and i tend to fall into temptation of the occasional cheezburger, which im ashamed to admit. im still working on that.

[Prometeo liberado]

"If you don't like feudalism why do you eat the bounty of the lord's fields!?" - the most annoying guy at the ren faire

WHAT in the hell are you doing at a renaissance fair to begin with!?
Totally ruined my day and derailed this thread I'll have you know.
Now go apologize to the OP so we can shut this down, you've done enough don't you think?

[adipocre]

I remember when I considered myself a libertarian hippie and I got questions like those. although I have never gotten these questions about my communist beliefs.

I think owning electronics puts up a big middle finger to rightists who say all communist countries outlaw the internet and phones.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Evil Stalinist Overlord]

Because I'm not a hermit and can't help but live in the system I was born into.
Plus, Candy Crush is fun.

[Comrade #138672]

"[W]hy do you own a computer/TV/phone/whatever?"Because it is useful.

You do not have to answer their flawed question completely, because it is based on false assumptions. This will probably provoke them into slowly revealing their hidden assumptions. Then you can destroy those false assumptions one by one. Do not go with something that has not been proven by them. Let them do the work.

[Црвена]

Communism is about sharing, not needless self-denial, and phones and computers can be used to make yourself heard. With that being said, I don't actually watch my family's TV, I see it as useless fluff verging on propaganda.

[exeexe]

Because there is no alternative. He can then say even if there was an alternative the socialist products would cost a lot more because workers would get higher wages, but then i can say in a socialist society i would also have more money to spend because im a worker.

[exeexe]

You could also ask him if he like robberies then ask him why does he like capitalism since property is robbery

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I don't, I'm a primitivist and support re-wilding.

[Rafiq]

Isn't that the same as saying "If you don't like the existing circumstances of life, why not kill yourself"?

The point is not that we wish to depart form this world. The point is that we want this world for ourselves. We do not oppose capitalism for the vast and excessive technological, social and even political advances it has brought forth. We oppose capitalism first from the circumstances presented by capitalism.

[4thInter]

i can tell you one of those kind of people
http://www.revleft.com/vb/picture.php?albumid=1456&pictureid=11765

[exeexe]

Why does capitalists who are opposing workers sell products produced by workers?

[goalkeeper]

Personal consumption habits should not be confused with politics.

I wonder though, with the rise of 'ethical consumer products etc. in recent times, and the linking of consumption and identity, is this a new argument that arose with this? I couldn't imagine someone asking Marx why he wore that big black coat that was presumably produced in a factory.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Yeah, the appropriate response to this really depends on who's making the comment and why. Every now and then, there are people who genuinely want an answer to this. In that case, a patient exposition is often worthwhile: Communism is about collectively deciding what to produce and how - and the struggle over those decisions. By-and-large, it's not about short-term consumer choices, except in specific tactical contexts (eg Boycotting Sabra Hummous to draw attention to Israeli apartheid, as part of a broader strategy).

The other more common context is some arsehole being "smart" - in this case it's best to speak for the benefit of third parties who might not be total assholes: if possible, make an example without coming off as a self-rightous prick. Starting with, "Do you support child labour?" Follow up by asking about their shoes, or the food they eat. Point being generally, at this juncture, we have very little choice but to have some sort of relationship to objects produced under the capitalist organization of production - because "duh" - but that any humane or caring individual no doubt aspires to a different organization of production.

Best case scenario, they say they do support child labour, then they look like a real jerk.

[cyu]

If you don't like unions, why do you own a computer/TV/phone/whatever??

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/30343740.jpg

[jookyle]

1. Marxism seeks to overthrow capitalism, not escape it.

2. We are not primitivists. We do not hate the objects or technology itself but the system under which our relation to the product is defined.

3. "The capitalists will sell us the rope we hang them with" By having certain objects not only do advance the way we are able to communicate and organize, but being some weird hermit on the outside of society is not going to put you into a position to build a movement. The average working class worker is going to be swayed by someone weird guy who lives on the outside of town denouncing modern technology.

[Sinister Intents]

Going based off of the title: I usually just point out that to be a communist/anarchist isn't a lifestyle but a specific belief set, and having possessions doesn't contradict being a communist/anarchist. Under communism/anarchism I highly doubt these things will stop being produced, but things will probably be fixed up, recycled, reused, et cetera, so that everyone can have a television, telephone, computer, or whichever product another worker, or yourself helped to produce or refurbish.

[BolshevikBabe]

The basic idea behind this question is actually so daft it's unbelievable that people still use it. If we're to take this seriously, this means that technology has an essence bestowed upon it by a mode of production which cannot be properly separated from it, a conclusion so idealist even Hegel would cringe at it.

I also wonder if capitalists are prepared to give up using any technology made prior to capitalism, or reliant on artificial satellites, since uh...

[exeexe]

Would a capitalist refuse to buy products after a socialist revolution?

[Sinister Intents]

Would a capitalist refuse to buy products after a socialist revolution?

Well, I wouldn't be petit-bourgeois anymore after communism is achieved, I'd just be another person, and one that prefers to do construction work :)

So... Um... I guess yes I'd refuse to buy things, There would exist no reason to by that which is provided according to one's ability and according to one's need. Right?

[exeexe]

...

After a socialist revolution there would be socialism and no longer be capitalism

After a communist revolution there would be communism and no longer be markets

[Sinister Intents]

...

After a socialist revolution there would be socialism and no longer be capitalism

After a communist revolution there would be communism and no longer be markets

Indeed, though I consider socialism and communism synonymous. There would exist neither markets, nor capitalism.

[exeexe]

You shouldnt automatically assume that:

On distribution of output there have been two proposals, one which is based on the principle of to each according to his contribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_each_according_to_his_contribution) and another on the principle of from each according to his ability, to each according to his need (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_each_according_to_his_ability,_to_each_accord ing_to_his_need). The advisability, feasibility and exact methods of resource allocation and valuation are the subject of the socialist calculation debate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_calculation_debate).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

[Sinister Intents]

Okay... I'm not making assumptions, I'm going off of what I already know. As well as from my own personal readings and my own personal interpretations. Also I hate being a business owner, it's utter bullshit. Also I prefer "to each according to their ability, to each according to their need."

[exeexe]

Yes but socialism is one word and communism is another word, and their meanings is not exactly the same.

[Sinister Intents]

Very true, it's also equally daft of me (this was in the past) to have lumped Marxism and anarchism in the same boat, I used to consider them just the same but utilizing different semantical means. I used to think that in anarchism a DotP with a Vanguard party was possible, yet I discovered that this is cognitive dissonance

[Sinred]

If you are pro-capitalism, then why do you use public roads, public services and download shareware!!
MOVE TO RWANDA IF YOU DONT LIKE SOCIALISM!

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

If you are pro-capitalism, then why do you use public roads, public services and download shareware!!
MOVE TO RWANDA IF YOU DONT LIKE SOCIALISM!

Public roads and public services in bourgeois states are, at best, state capitalism.

[Sinred]

Public roads and public services in bourgeois states are, at best, state capitalism.

Yea ofc, but try telling that to the person using that kind of argument.

[[email protected]]

"If you don't like communism, why do you like AK-47s (invented in the Soviet Union)?"

By a man who's since repented ever inventing the thing in the first place, I might add.

[USAneedsCommunism]

Hi, the music artist John Cougar said that we must stay away from negative, toxic and very ignorant people, because if you try to help them, if you try to educate them. What would happen is that they will drag you to their toxic self-destructive negative thinking. And the tenth law of the book "The 48 Laws of Power" says that we should stay from negative toxic people.

LAW # 10

Infection: Avoid the Unhappy and Unlucky

You can die from someone else’s misery. Emotional states are as infectious as disease. You may feel you are helping the drowning man but you are only precipitating your own disaster. The unfortunate sometimes draw misfortune on themselves; they will also draw it on you. Associate with the happy and fortunate instead.

That's why it is real hard, for radical leftists, communists and anarchists to show workers and the oppressed that capitalism most of the time only benefits people who own businesses and high wage workers. While increasing poverty in the majority of people who are neither business owners nor high wage workers. And that their only realist possible safe solution for poor people in this world, without having to get into drug smugglinge, stealing, and dangerous activities is joining a leftist labor party.

Because desperate poor people most of the time are either too busy or too stressed, or too physically tired to get into the internet and read about how abusive capitalism is and how the only solution is joining radical leftist parties

However I would like to add, that we as compassionate leftists must love, support and understand all poor oppressed people who offend communists and must love them. Because most poor oppressed people are not really to blame for their lack of understanding of political systems and for how the world really works. If we insult, offend and hate poor people who vote for capitalist parties we will alienate them and scare them away from communism

.


.




I can't be the only one that regularly gets these idiotic questions and be told to go live in a cave somewhere, or to go to Cuba or whatever.

Just wondering, do you ever get similar questions thrown at you when you begin to criticize capitalism? How do you personally respond to them?