Game of Thrones -trigger alert and spoilers

[Hrafn]

This thread is basically a walking spoiler, and a trigger warning for sexual violence is heavily needed. Take heed.

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This week's episode of Game of Thrones featured a scene in which Jaime Lannister rather nastily rapes his sister Cersei in front of their dead son's corpse. This has rapidly gotten quite a bit of controversy, from what I can see.

I personally did not see this coming, as my interpretation of the events in the books led me to believe it was consensual if creepy. However, I must admit, I read the scene very quickly, and never paid much attention to the details back then, years ago.

Here (http://jezebel.com/the-game-of-thrones-rape-scene-was-unnecessary-and-desp-1565671570?utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_faceboo k&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow) is some input into the debate, that posits that the scene in the book was indeed consensual, and argues that the same thing was done to Khal Drogo - a character that (well, in Drogo's case he was a rapist, but you know) acted consensually is unnecessarily turned into a sexual assaulter just for the sake of having some "fun" screen time rape.

In the comments section, George R. R. Martin's opinion on the matter can be found, and that adds more complexity. The scene in the original book was written from Jaime's point of view, and thus the consensuality of it all it is challenged. As said, I glossed over much of the book, so I missed such indications, which if I re-read the book I'd hopefully find.

Personally, I'm very disappointed. Not only because rape seems to be inserted for the sake of rape, but also because Jaime is one of my absolute favourite characters... I have a hard time finding rapists overly sympathetic, to put it mildly. Keep in mind, several other scenarios in the series where outright rape is actually featured in the books have been left out, such as the episode before this one where Ramsay Snow is "on the hunt" so to speak.

Sorry for the unstructured rambling. Opinions?

[Sasha]

here is george r martins reply; http://io9.com/george-r-r-martin-responds-to-that-controversial-game-1565762209
but yeah, if they use this to accelerate character development in the series it might be a defensible change, and indeed it was already a creepy and hardly consensual scene in the books, but if it turns out an unnecessary change i will be dissapointed.

[PhoenixAsh]

The director stated that his intent was to bring Jamies character development towards the brave sympathetic and chivalous individual. Which utterly failed in this scene and the scene makes no sense in this light.

"Jaime is still trying to believe as hard as he possibly can that he's in love with Cersei. He can't admit that he is traumatized by his family and he's been forced his whole life to be something he doesn't want to be. What he is — but has to deny — is he is actually the good knight, like Brienne."

http://jezebel.com/the-game-of-thrones-rape-scene-was-unnecessary-and-desp-1565671570

[~Spectre]

Not only because rape seems to be inserted for the sake of rape

I don't understand the false dichotomy of: "rape as character development vs. rape for the sake of rape."

This WAS character development. Jamie raped his sister. Regardless of anything else, this definitively gives you a different take on his character.

[~Spectre]

The director stated that his intent was to bring Jamies character development towards the brave sympathetic and chivalous individual.

That's not what he said (at least not in that excerpt). He's saying he was trying to make Jamie seem conflicted with his previous turn. This is certainly in conflict with that.

I'd also add that it's bizarre to interrogate and cast aspersions on the director for this when:

1) It's a show based on the dark ages featuring mass murder. Obviously depiction is not endorsement.

2) He didn't write the scene...

[~Spectre]

Update, apparently the scene was meant to be consensual:



Q: The reason I ask is because many of the people who have read the books are questioning why the scene was changed. As described in the book, told from Jaime’s point of view, Cersei initially resists but quickly gives her consent.

A: I see, I see. What was talked about was that it was not consensual as it began, but Jaime and Cersei, their entire sexual relationship has been based on and interwoven with risk. And Jaime is very much ready to have sex with her because he hasn’t made love to her since he got back, and she’s sort of cajoled into it, and it is consensual. Ultimately, it was meant to be consensual. [The writers] tried to complicate it a little more with her rejecting his new hand and the state of things.

http://www.vulture.com/2014/04/game-of-thrones-director-on-the-rape-sex-scene.html

[~Spectre]

Outside of the controversy, here's a really good bit of images from the sept scene, when Cersei realizes she's the only one who cares about Joffrey:

http://i.imgur.com/Em7N3rX.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wj1RkKa.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/y8OOSDg.jpg


http://imgur.com/a/bAgrQ

[~Spectre]

Podrick's last glance at Tyrion was really good too:

http://i.imgur.com/JF0TSaH.gif

[PhoenixAsh]

you bring up some good points.

From the perspective of the books the scene is a deviation. If we expect the series to be as close as possible to the book...the scene would break with the internal struggle of Jaime the Kingslayer and the blemish on his reputation for striking down his own king, eventhough that act was morally justified, and actually being a very brave and at times even noble character. In that line the rape scene was non sensical and even contradictory without seving a real purpose because it is a sharp contrast with Jaime's personality. His relationship with his sister is based on mutual consent.

If we do expect the seies to be losely based on the book and only roughly follow its plots and twists but actually being a diffeent story all together...then...well...we just have to accept that Jaime is an entirely different character and has an entirely different character development. As such the scene does probably serve some alternate character development point.

The scene, in whatever way you view it, is problematic. It will change the course of the story entirely.

So I think it is more likely the scene itself was flawed.

[~Spectre]

His relationship with his sister is based on mutual consent.


I think the director tries to make the argument that Jamie and Cersei used to do these sorts of high risk stunts all the time (sex at Winterfell with a high chance of discovery), and Jamie (still reeling from several traumatic experiences), has a hard time understanding that everything has changed (they even had this argument earlier on).

He's still not sure what path he wants to go in (re: his doubts on what to do when Brienne confronts him about his promises to Catlyn Stark), so it's not so much that his character has abandoned the righteous path, as much as it is that now that he's back in his old circumstances, he's having an identity crisis.

Of course, part of this may be a failure of execution in the editing of the scene, with the director stating that it was meant be be "consensual in the end", or at least something slightly more "gray".

Another thing might be political orientation too. I wonder how much of this goes totally unnoticed by the overall general viewership. A few of my apolitical friends didn't think it was a rape scene at all and were surprised when they saw online controversy. They took it more as "oh those depraved Lannisters being depraved again."

I think there's also a descent into madness thing going on with it meant to parallel a similar scene with Jamie and Cersei standing over Jon Arryn in a similar position in season 1, and this shows how crazy things have gotten since then.

Ultimately, I don't think this is a break from Jamie's character. He's not entirely righteous yet. And to be consistent with time period standards, it's not unreasonable to suggest that even a "moral" (mass murderer) like Jamie, would not recognize the concept of spousal rape, especially given that he would have interpreted certain signals from Cersei as a sign to go ahead.

Jamie's arc can still work IMO.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I thought the scene was really strange too. I saw it Sunday and thought for sure is was clearly rape and meant to be a depiction of rape. After reading people saying it was consensual I rewatched the episode (was gonna do it anyway) and where I thought Cerci was saying "No, no" she was actually saying "Not here" or something like that. Still the camera work, the blocking and physical cues all read "Rape" to me and she's clearly saying not now, which is still rape.

In terms of Jamie's character on the show, I think it is confusing. In the books we see more how loyal and how much he deeply cares for Cersi - everything he does out of his sense of honor is seen as a huge breech by the rest of society (kingslayer and queenlayer) and he does it all to protect his family (not killing his father, providing respect and care for his sister who gets none of that) which is what he was raised to do. I guess the show wanted to show his internal frustration and growing anger with Cerci, but this scene was too over the top for me if that was the intent.

The only way I could see it working is if they make it more about Cerci and it becomes part of her rejection of Jamie... the scene felt to me a lot like how she described King Robert drunkenly raping her in their marriage. I think that could be interesting for her character and her growing isolation - and it would make the rape-y tone of that scene actually meaningful in regards to the story, rather than a way to create extra drama and tension for one part of an episode that maybe the producers thought was too slow without it.

[Sasha]

I think that the writers of the tv series are accelerating the collaps of the Lanister might
Spoilers ahead;
I expect the marriage of joffreys kid brother/the new king to happen sooner (which will transfer a lot of power to the Tyrells) and also the death of tywin and the escape of Tyrone,
A sped up collaps of the relationship between Jaime and cersi fits in that as its needed to motivate Jaime to go against the wishes of his sister and let Tyrone escape