I don't know how to react to this.

[Einkarl]

First off, I am not gay and therefore do not claim to speak for anyone who is gay. It's not my place and that is the way it should be. I say this to cover my ass and not to give false impressions.

However, even though I myself am not gay, I thought that it's ok for me to call out when someone is being a blantant, homophobic asshole. There is this guy I know (friend of a friend) that was saying to me and other people on the Facebooks that even though he doesn't "hate" gay men per se, he feels that same-sex relationships are wrong, "disgusting", and an "abomination". He says that he hopes that in due time homosexual men will see the error in their ways (BTW he only has a problem with men being gay. He's okay with women being sexually attracted to other women because apperantly thats "hot" to him).

I decide to call him out for being a homophobic prick and we get in a bit of an argument online (btw i do know this dude in person). He says typical homophobic shit about it being unatural or a mental ailment while occasionally remind me that he isn't being homophobic, just "telling it like it is".

But something happend that really caught me off guard. His friend, who I didn't know and claims to be gay (he enjoys dressing in womens clothing and his PI says hes into men so believe him), dropped in and started defending him on the basis of him having the right to hold that opinion. This friend of his then tells me to "step off my high horse" and that I shouldn't mess with his friend.

Was I wrong to call this dude out? Why would someone who is gay defend a homophobe? How should I react?

Thanks a bundle guys.

(Sorry if this isn't the right board to post this thread. Also, sorry if "gay" isn't a PC term, I didn't want to use the word "homosexual" because i thought it sounded too sterill an i thought that might be worse.)

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

Gay is fine as a word. As a bisexual guy I would say that I would want anyone and everyone to attack backward harmful and hurtful views WHENEVER they come up. That his friend is gay makes no difference.

[Decolonize The Left]

You were not wrong to call this dude out. That bigoted asshole needs to be told when he's being such and I know a massive amount of LGBTQ folks who would be thankful that you did so.

We don't really know the whole situation regarding the other person in this discussion so I'd venture a guess that they feel greatly threatened by this person and his bigoted views and so they attempted to seek some sort of shelter in confirming his right to say what he said. There is safety in doing so as it places them in a position of support, perhaps to be viewed as 'despicable but at least they have a sound head on their shoulders' because they supported my rights.

Just my thoughts.

[Rosa Partizan]

you did just fine. I see nothing wrong in calling out those dickheads. As to this gay guy...hard to say why he reacted this way. I don't think that freedom of speech involves hate speech against certain groups. But there are people who think it does. I know gays who vote for conservative Christian parties, or immigrants who support nationalist stances.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Sometimes, an oppressed person is simply an Uncle Tom, getting a sort of relative privilege by loudly echoing the oppressive views of the wider society, particularly their circle of "friends" etc. Don't let it bother you.

[Quail]

No, you weren't wrong to call the dude out. He needs to be called out.

The person who defended his "right" to hold and express his opinion is a liberal idiot, regardless of his sexual orientation. The "right to free speech" ends when it becomes hate speech.

Also this

(BTW he only has a problem with men being gay. He's okay with women being sexually attracted to other women because apperantly thats "hot" to him)
is something about homophobes that pisses me off a lot, because it's also deeply sexist. It basically translates to "homosexuality is gross and wrong... unless it's two women who are sexy objects for me to wank over."

[motion denied]

he only has a problem with men being gay. He's okay with women being sexually attracted to other women because apperantly thats "hot" to him

What a fucking idiot. That's classic homophobic idiocy.

EDIT: Oops, Quail already pointed that out.

[Einkarl]

The thing that really bothers me is that I see this type of shit all the time, and not exclusively about sexuality. I once knew this middle eastern guy back in highschool who would let other people make "hurr hurr terrorist" jokes at his expense and would never protest. I had a class with him in which we were put in groups and had to organize skits within a minute (often with some theme) and I remember that in his group his role was to say "death to america" and blow the other studets up. I asked this other kid who knew him better and was also in his group if he was okay with him playing a pretty racist caricature, and the response he gave me was along the lines of "no not really, but he just smiles and doesn't say anything about it".

I've also heard women being really fucking sexist towards other women. Especially when it comes to "slut" shaming. That is by far the WORST in regard to how prevalent it is. I used to have this girlfriend who used to do it all the time and really fucking confused me.

[Rosa Partizan]

The thing that really bothers me is that I see this type of shit all the time, and not exclusively about sexuality. I once knew this middle eastern guy back in highschool who would let other people make "hurr hurr terrorist" jokes at his expense and would never protest. I had a class with him in which we were put in groups and had to organize skits within a minute (often with some theme) and I remember that in his group his role was to say "death to america" and blow the other studets up. I asked this other kid who knew him better and was also in his group if he was okay with him playing a pretty racist caricature, and the response he gave me was along the lines of "no not really, but he just smiles and doesn't say anything about it".

I've also heard women being really fucking sexist towards other women. Especially when it comes to "slut" shaming. That is by far the WORST in regard to how prevalent it is. I used to have this girlfriend who used to do it all the time and really fucking confused me.

that's a bit different, though, becauce women doing this REALLY believe that it's just fine dividing women in categories like good girl/the girl you'd like to marry and slut/***** only to have fun with. But yeah, it's totally awful seeing this over and over again, especially because women tend to be their own worst enemies.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Also this

[...]

is something about homophobes that pisses me off a lot, because it's also deeply sexist. It basically translates to "homosexuality is gross and wrong... unless it's two women who are sexy objects for me to wank over."

Let's not forget that lesbians don't actually exist and only make out etc. with other women to draw male attention to themselves.

[Rosa Partizan]

that's a bit different, though, becauce women doing this REALLY believe that it's just fine dividing women in categories like good girl/the girl you'd like to marry and slut/***** only to have fun with. But yeah, it's totally awful seeing this over and over again, especially because women tend to be their own worst enemies.

oh man I forgot that they censor bi.tch :laugh:

[Rugged Collectivist]

Him having the right to hold the opinion doesn't make it any less idiotic. Tell his friend that you can say whatever you want because you "have the right to hold that opinion". You weren't wrong to call this guy out. He's objectively wrong. There's nothing "unnatural" about being gay, homosexuality is quite common in other animal species, and if it were unnatural, humans wouldn't do it. Mental health is a big grey area but the general consensus among psychologists/psychiatrists is that homosexuality isn't a mental illness.

[RedWorker]

Saying that gay relationships are an "abomination" is pretty fucking rude. Did you unleash a disproportionate shitstorm of insults on that person? Otherwise, I cannot see why that gay person would back him up, other than some variant of Stockholm syndrome. Does not mean that you are in the wrong at all, people who belong to an oppressed group defend their oppressors all the time, best example being the people who defend capitalism even though it is obviously fucking them up, or women who go on about how men are "stronger" and "more intelligent" and shit like that.

[Redistribute the Rep]

He has the right to hold his opinion, you have the right to hold your opinion that he's a homophobic fuckbag. I'm really tired of these people who say something idiotic and get called out on it, and then they just yell "freedom of speech!" Huh? Freedom of speech also means you can criticize people for what they say, it does not mean people can say stupid shit unchallenged.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Was I wrong to call this dude out?
It's never wrong to call someone out for their bigotry.


Why would someone who is gay defend a homophobe?
Maybe he has a thing for the homophobe. Who knows. As someone who's bi and trans, I certainly wouldn't defend a 'phobe, and that would make me end my friendship with them not defend them.


How should I react?
Call them both out. Also, tell the gay guy that if his friend has a "right" to hate speech, you have a right to criticize it.

[Thanatos]

No, you weren't wrong to call the dude out. He needs to be called out.

The person who defended his "right" to hold and express his opinion is a liberal idiot, regardless of his sexual orientation. The "right to free speech" ends when it becomes hate speech.

Also this

is something about homophobes that pisses me off a lot, because it's also deeply sexist. It basically translates to "homosexuality is gross and wrong... unless it's two women who are sexy objects for me to wank over."

I admit I am aroused by this, but I am not a homophobe.

[Nakidana]

The thing that really bothers me is that I see this type of shit all the time, and not exclusively about sexuality. I once knew this middle eastern guy back in highschool who would let other people make "hurr hurr terrorist" jokes at his expense and would never protest. I had a class with him in which we were put in groups and had to organize skits within a minute (often with some theme) and I remember that in his group his role was to say "death to america" and blow the other studets up. I asked this other kid who knew him better and was also in his group if he was okay with him playing a pretty racist caricature, and the response he gave me was along the lines of "no not really, but he just smiles and doesn't say anything about it".

Of course he wasn't okay with it, but it can be pretty tough speaking out against these things when you're alone and everyone is laughing at your expense.

This is exactly why everyone should call this shit out when they see it, friends be damned. Who the fuck wants to be friends with racist assholes anyway.

[Slavic]

He has the right to hold his opinion, you have the right to hold your opinion that he's a homophobic fuckbag. I'm really tired of these people who say something idiotic and get called out on it, and then they just yell "freedom of speech!" Huh? Freedom of speech also means you can criticize people for what they say, it does not mean people can say stupid shit unchallenged.

He doesn't have a right to hold that opinion, it is never acceptable. No human right legalistic grounds should ever be used to legitimize his opinion. Hate speech is not speech, it is just terror.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

First off, I am gonna respond piece by piece because there is a lot here.


First off, I am not gay and therefore do not claim to speak for anyone who is gay. It's not my place and that is the way it should be. I say this to cover my ass and not to give false impressions.
Okay, cool, I'm not a fan of mushrooms. lol I do not speak for people who like eating mushrooms.


However, even though I myself am not gay, I thought that it's ok for me to call out when someone is being a blantant, homophobic asshole. There is this guy I know (friend of a friend) that was saying to me and other people on the Facebooks that even though he doesn't "hate" gay men per se, he feels that same-sex relationships are wrong, "disgusting", and an "abomination". He says that he hopes that in due time homosexual men will see the error in their ways (BTW he only has a problem with men being gay. He's okay with women being sexually attracted to other women because apperantly thats "hot" to him).
It still is okay to call a motherfucker out.



I decide to call him out for being a homophobic prick and we get in a bit of an argument online (btw i do know this dude in person). He says typical homophobic shit about it being unatural or a mental ailment while occasionally remind me that he isn't being homophobic, just "telling it like it is".
Homosexuality was taken out of the DSM, did he not get the memo?



But something happend that really caught me off guard. His friend, who I didn't know and claims to be gay (he enjoys dressing in womens clothing and his PI says hes into men so believe him), dropped in and started defending him on the basis of him having the right to hold that opinion. This friend of his then tells me to "step off my high horse" and that I shouldn't mess with his friend.

He has a right to his shitty opinion, that is true, and those of us with at least a third of a brain also have a right to our opinion that the guy is a bigot and an asshole.



Was I wrong to call this dude out?

Ummmm...

... no, you weren't wrong to do so...


Why would someone who is gay defend a homophobe?

Betrayal of queer culture and maybe some internalized homophobia, such things happen to some within any oppressed community.


How should I react?

Just as you did.


Thanks a bundle guys.

uh, no problem.


(Sorry if this isn't the right board to post this thread. Also, sorry if "gay" isn't a PC term, I didn't want to use the word "homosexual" because i thought it sounded too sterill an i thought that might be worse.)

Gay is a perfectly okay word, though I don't buy into PC shit myself. Political correctness comes off too whiney to me, but that doesn't mean I don't think people shouldn't be decent fucking people.

But gay is an okay term and even cry baby PC punx would most likely agree on that.

[Nakidana]

Gay is a perfectly okay word, though I don't buy into PC shit myself. Political correctness comes off too whiney to me, but that doesn't mean I don't think people shouldn't be decent fucking people.

But gay is an okay term and even cry baby PC punx would most likely agree on that.

Political correctness/PC is one of those shitty buzzwords used by the right which sets my internal alarm-clocks off. Whenever some white guy is prevented from saying discriminatory shit in public it's always "Political correctness gone maaaaaid" and cue a row about how poor privileged white people aren't allowed to call black people niggers anymore.

Einkarl and the rest of us would probably be accused of being "cry baby PC punx". That's one of the things that happen when you don't just passively accept the abuse people spew. You get called whiny, humorless or weak. As if being offended is a sign of weakness. In fact real weakness is avoiding conflict and putting up with shit that you shouldn't, letting racists, homophobes and sexists get away with bullying and oppressing people. Fuck that. :mad:

bmsV1TuESrc

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Political correctness/PC is one of those shitty buzzwords used by the right which sets my internal alarm-clocks off. Whenever some white guy is prevented from saying discriminatory shit in public it's always "Political correctness gone maaaaaid" and cue a row about how poor privileged white people aren't allowed to call black people niggers anymore.

Einkarl and the rest of us would probably be accused of being "cry baby PC punx". That's one of the things that happen when you don't just passively accept the abuse people spew. You get called whiny, humorless or weak. As if being offended is a sign of weakness. In fact real weakness is avoiding conflict and putting up with shit that you shouldn't, letting racists, homophobes and sexists get away with bullying and oppressing people. Fuck that. :mad:

bmsV1TuESrc

Yes, because all that was soooo what I was implying, right? It is funny that you took that portion of what I said and tried to make it sound like the opposite of what the totality of my post was. Letting racists and homophobes and sexists get away with shit is not what I'm known for. I've just seen too many PC punx whine about it but not do shit about it. I don't complain about fascists, I stab them up on the train tracks with broken bottles. I don't complain about misogynists I face plant them into the concrete. I don't cry about homophobes I give 'em boot parties. That is why I'm guttertrash and not a PC punk, because talk and theory are cheap.

[Nakidana]

Yes, because all that was soooo what I was implying, right?

No, I was trying to explain to you why I think PC is a right-wing term and why we shouldn't use it or waste our time complaining about it. I've only ever heard it used by people who miss the "good 'ol days" when they could go around saying or doing discriminatory shit in public.


It is funny that you took that portion of what I said and tried to make it sound like the opposite of what the totality of my post was.

The reason I only quoted that portion of your post is because that's the only part I had issue with and wanted to discuss.


Letting racists and homophobes and sexists get away with shit is not what I'm known for. I've just seen too many PC punx whine about it but not do shit about it.

Excuse me, but what exactly is a "PC punx"? Somebody who verbally calls out discrimination when they see it, but don't react with physical violence? If so then I dare say most of us are PC punx. E.g. I've verbally reprimanded abusive friends and colleagues numerous times without stomping them in the nuts afterwards. There is a time and place for everything. Everyday racism and sexism cannot always be met with violence, it all depends on circumstances, the situation, who you're dealing with.


I don't complain about fascists, I stab them up on the train tracks with broken bottles. I don't complain about misogynists I face plant them into the concrete. I don't cry about homophobes I give 'em boot parties. That is why I'm guttertrash and not a PC punk, because talk and theory are cheap.

I see... :rolleyes:

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

No, I was trying to explain to you why I think PC is a right-wing term and why we shouldn't use it or waste our time complaining about it. I've only ever heard it used by people who miss the "good 'ol days" when they could go around saying or doing discriminatory shit in public.

Fair enough. I can agree with that. I'm just so used to a lot of the people I hang around using the term differently. Though they are usually not intellectual and in and out of the pen and can't get political beyond fuck the pigs, actually getting into fights and shit with the police and drawing chaos stars and shit and diy stuff too. Basically sums up the men I hang around (I have odd taste, I know) but most of them use the term PC punx to describe those who talk about that shit but don't back it up when it comes to fighting a crew of boneheads and shit like that.

Amongst them, I'm the political one.


The reason I only quoted that portion of your post is because that's the only part I had issue with and wanted to discuss.
Point taken.




Excuse me, but what exactly is a "PC punx"? Somebody who verbally calls out discrimination when they see it, but don't react with physical violence? If so then I dare say most of us are PC punx. E.g. I've verbally reprimanded abusive friends and colleagues numerous times without stomping them in the nuts afterwards. There is a time and place for everything. Everyday racism and sexism cannot always be met with violence, it all depends on circumstances, the situation, who you're dealing with.
There are times where words are enough, it is those other times when words aren't enough that answer the question of "how far will you go for your convictions?" as a matter of whether you will fight and assume the risks involved or back down. I always think of my fiancé's words: "I ain't gonna be no chump"

I reckon his being all agro and shit wore off on me. I used to be so much more articulate. I don't know which me I hate more. :(

Fuck the world! :mad:

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

Fair enough. I can agree with that. I'm just so used to a lot of the people I hang around using the term differently. Though they are usually not intellectual and in and out of the pen and can't get political beyond fuck the pigs, actually getting into fights and shit with the police and drawing chaos stars and shit and diy stuff too. Basically sums up the men I hang around (I have odd taste, I know) but most of them use the term PC punx to describe those who talk about that shit but don't back it up when it comes to fighting a crew of boneheads and shit like that.

There are times where words are enough, it is those other times when words aren't enough that answer the question of "how far will you go for your convictions?" as a matter of whether you will fight and assume the risks involved or back down. I always think of my fiancé's words: "I ain't gonna be no chump"

I reckon his being all agro and shit wore off on me. I used to be so much more articulate. I don't know which me I hate more. :(

Fuck the world! :mad:

You surely are both Bad Grrrl and Agro. :)

I think there's a time and place for both. For those that could potentially be persuaded, words and reason are probably best. But I like to fight, and there's a beautiful nobility in getting beaten up for your principles (you get beaten for them everyday all but physically anyway).

'Don't hate, only the unloved hate...' and the best way to fight homophobia (et all) is with militant love and kisses

[SmirkerOfTheWorld]

He has the right to hold his opinion, you have the right to hold your opinion that he's a homophobic fuckbag. I'm really tired of these people who say something idiotic and get called out on it, and then they just yell "freedom of speech!" Huh? Freedom of speech also means you can criticize people for what they say, it does not mean people can say stupid shit unchallenged.

This. Very much this. Freedom of speech goes both ways.

[Slavic]

This. Very much this. Freedom of speech goes both ways.

I don't understand why a lot of people on here are supporting his ability to express his hate opinion.

I thought that leftists were against fascists and bigots expressing their opinions in the public sphere. Since when was it ok to say, "Well, the fascists does have a right to march and speak his mind."

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I don't understand why a lot of people on here are supporting his ability to express his hate opinion.

I thought that leftists were against fascists and bigots expressing their opinions in the public sphere. Since when was it ok to say, "Well, the fascists does have a right to march and speak his mind."

I feel he should have the right to talk his hate speech and people like me should be perfectly fine taking matters into our own hands and delivering a boot party accordingly.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I don't understand why a lot of people on here are supporting his ability to express his hate opinion.

I thought that leftists were against fascists and bigots expressing their opinions in the public sphere. Since when was it ok to say, "Well, the fascists does have a right to march and speak his mind."

I think it's a false dichotomy - either supporting the bourgeois state against the fascists or adopting an "anything goes" attitude. As far as I'm concerned, communists shouldn't protest the suppression of fascists, but neither should they call on the bourgeois state to "do something". Only the proletariat can stop reactionaries - the bourgeoisie, even if they wanted to, can't.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

I feel he should have the right to talk his hate speech and people like me should be perfectly fine taking matters into our own hands and delivering a boot party accordingly.

But the problem I have been having recently is that these two are contradictory. He isn't free to speak his mind if he is going to get a boot up his arse for doing so. Obviously the boot doesn't seem so harmful, but if we extrapolate to the boots of all of us in the thread, then we get a situation where he is ostensibly 'free' to speak, but he can expect to be kicked to death afterwards. I have been experiencing some cognitive dissonance regarding Luxemburg's "freedom is always the freedom of dissent' - and not wanting to just let fascists/racists/sexists preach their hatred.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

But the problem I have been having recently is that these two are contradictory. He isn't free to speak his mind if he is going to get a boot up his arse for doing so. Obviously the boot doesn't seem so harmful, but if we extrapolate to the boots of all of us in the thread, then we get a situation where he is ostensibly 'free' to speak, but he can expect to be kicked to death afterwards. I have been experiencing some cognitive dissonance regarding Luxemburg's "freedom is always the freedom of dissent' - and not wanting to just let fascists/racists/sexists preach their hatred.

I believe in street justice. I don't believe in putting up with hate speech but I don't believe in relying on a power structure to take care of that for us.

Also the word arse makes me giggle. I can't understand why, but it sounds cute and funny to me.

[Iakovsko]

I have no problems, ever, with calling out homophobia, or any form of "phobia" for that matter. Good job! Always happy to have straight supporters!

In Solidarity,

Iakovsko