"Stop making everything about race/gender, you're no fun"

[ola.]

Do you ever feel discouraged, perhaps even fearful, from pointing out the racism/sexism/classism/homophobia in other peoples' "jokes" or socially accepted attitudes?

I'm wondering because this is something I occasionally come across in usually non-white people at my workplace. I've noticed how one black coworker will keep his silence so as to avoid the "angry black man" stereotype or otherwise be told to "calm down, Malcolm X", or when my Muslim coworker laughs along with every joke just to show that "hey, I'm a Muslim that DOES have a sense of humor", or this one woman and friend who no longer points out the sexism in other people's behaviors towards her because she was constantly told "Well, no wonder you're single."

Some of you must have encountered such situations. What are your thoughts on this? My question isn't "how do you engage in social justice and still be invited to parties", fuck that, leave that to the liberals. I'm wondering how you even get people to critically think about their own behaviors and internalized racism/homophobia/sexism/classism when their only response is to "stop ruining their good time" or something along those lines, because you're only seen as "preachy" or someone annoyingly trying to stir up a debate out of nowhere.

But yeah, I also know we can't change everyone's minds and there are many instances where I decide I won't try because it appears useless.

Interested in your opinions.

[ArisVelouxiotis]

Yeah.I mean in the internet mostly when I point out the racism,sexism homophobia in a "joke" they tell me it's just a joke kid calm down.

[TheSocialistMetalhead]

I usually just sit down with them and explain how things like race and gender are really social constructs imposed on us by the dominant structures in society. It amazes me how many people think race and gender are invariable factors of society, while they're obviously not.

If you can get that out of the way without sounding too scholarly, it becomes much easier to show how racism and sexism are everywhere and are interwoven with society itself. You need to show them how they really haven't been thinking for themselves (they usually think they have) and have just been accepting society's norms.

Sexism especially is very deeply rooted in the structures of society. In reality, we're all a little sexist because of this. This needs to be fought and destroyed if we want a world of true equals.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

So, context: I'm a loud, sometimes-called-charasmatic, somewhat educated, white dude. When I have something to say, for a whole lot of shitty reasons (and hopefully a few good ones), people listen.

I think there's a sort of "dance" to these sort of situations. Nobody likes a hero, and the PC-version of White Man's Burden is still fucking fucked. If your racialized, gender-oppressed, etc. friends don't want you to say anything, want to let shit blow over, etc., then you need to let them pick their battles and keep yr mouth shut.
On the other hand, it's decently likely that they'd appreciate it if you tastefully intervened. I've been thanked many times simply for saying, "Hey, I get it, we're all here for the lolz, but that's kinda fucked up because x/y/z." Alternatively, if you're really on your game, turning a sexist/racist/whatever joke around into a joke about sexists/racists/etc. that makes them look like fucking foolz can be v. effective (and can make a strong point without making a situation tense, unless the person being sexist/racist/whatever is a real uptight tool).
Point being, have some honest talks with your friends. Know them well enough to know when/where/how they'd want you to speak up. Have their backs. I know that sounds obvious, but I feel like sometimes there's this weird thing people do where they act like, "You can either be my friend, or the subject of anti-racist/feminist/whatever political discourse." Shit's weird. Y'know, just like, do friendship, right?

[ola.]

So, context: I'm a loud, sometimes-called-charasmatic, somewhat educated, white dude. When I have something to say, for a whole lot of shitty reasons (and hopefully a few good ones), people listen.

I think there's a sort of "dance" to these sort of situations. Nobody likes a hero, and the PC-version of White Man's Burden is still fucking fucked. If your racialized, gender-oppressed, etc. friends don't want you to say anything, want to let shit blow over, etc., then you need to let them pick their battles and keep yr mouth shut.

Man, what the fuck

I brought up my non-white workers as examples specifically to convey how they are already dealing with it and that I leave them to it, I wasn't fucking asking "How should I rush to rescue my non-white friends as it is my White Humble Burden?" nor was I even asking for advice on how to deal in these types of situations. I simply asked how other people on this forum have already dealt with situations in which they are faced with socially-accepted racism/sexism/classism/homophobia. So drop the false conclusions that I'm trying to play some white savior here and that I'm just some "loud", "somewhat-educated" white dude.

[The Jay]

Pardon my intrusion but are you part of the Jay Continuum?

Anyway, I don't usually pay much attention unless it is a situation in which talking soberly is doable. I usually start with, "man this world if fucked up" or something of that nature to get them into a critical attitude towards the status quo. Then it is easier to point out the systemic nature of these phenomena.

Usually, it is discouraging though.

[ola.]

Pardon my intrusion but are you part of the Jay Continuum?

no problem and no I'm not.

[BIXX]

I usually don't talk to these people, and the few friends I have don't say this shit much if ever.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Yeah. If I think I can get anywhere by being the "buzzkill", even if it irks some people, I'll do it. If not, I won't.

It's hardly ever an issue around friends, though. If anything it's my family that says this shit, and family gatherings don't mix well with being "politically correct" or "preachy".

[Loony Le Fist]

How about we'll stop talking about race or gender when society stops making everything about race or gender through discrimination. But then again, I'm not sure we'll ever reach that point. Society made it about race and gender first, we're just talking about it to get it to stop.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Man, what the fuck

I brought up my non-white workers as examples specifically to convey how they are already dealing with it and that I leave them to it, I wasn't fucking asking "How should I rush to rescue my non-white friends as it is my White Humble Burden?" nor was I even asking for advice on how to deal in these types of situations. I simply asked how other people on this forum have already dealt with situations in which they are faced with socially-accepted racism/sexism/classism/homophobia. So drop the false conclusions that I'm trying to play some white savior here and that I'm just some "loud", "somewhat-educated" white dude.

I didn't reach any conclusions about you - I stated where I was coming from, to make it clear that my responses may or may not be useful to you depending on where you're coming from.

You asked how other people (in this case, me) deal with these situations, and I simply laid out the criteria and concerns I work through as part of engaging thoughtfully and usefully. Personally, I find general statements of that sort more useful than most particular examples, b/c these things are, well, particular.

To clarify - the "you" in question in my post was meant generally, and to refer to a theoretical individual (one who shares some of my positions, more-or-less), and not you, ola., individually.

[synthesis]

Man, what the fuck

I brought up my non-white workers as examples specifically to convey how they are already dealing with it and that I leave them to it, I wasn't fucking asking "How should I rush to rescue my non-white friends as it is my White Humble Burden?" nor was I even asking for advice on how to deal in these types of situations. I simply asked how other people on this forum have already dealt with situations in which they are faced with socially-accepted racism/sexism/classism/homophobia. So drop the false conclusions that I'm trying to play some white savior here and that I'm just some "loud", "somewhat-educated" white dude.

I think you misinterpreted his post. He was suggesting ways that people could challenge that sort of behavior without coming across as "humorless" or whatever. (edit: shit, ninja'd)

I've definitely been in positions where I felt I had to be the one to challenge that behavior because the people who were really being made uncomfortable by it didn't want to get a reputation as the sort of "angry [x]" person who "isn't fun to be around." I don't think that's a "white man's burden" thing, it's more that I know that I personally am not going to be stereotyped as "an angry [x]" and therefore I'm sometimes in a better position to take on behavior or remarks that are problematic.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

i rarely pass comment because i'm worried as coming across as some student-leftist type with a saviour complex. And obviously that throws me because really I should be speaking out against this because it's a shitty thing for people to do.

[Lily Briscoe]

I'm wondering because this is something I occasionally come across in usually non-white people at my workplace. I've noticed how one black coworker will keep his silence so as to avoid the "angry black man" stereotype or otherwise be told to "calm down, Malcolm X", or when my Muslim coworker laughs along with every joke just to show that "hey, I'm a Muslim that DOES have a sense of humor", or this one woman and friend who no longer points out the sexism in other people's behaviors towards her because she was constantly told "Well, no wonder you're single."

Do you really know that this is their motivation for doing this (I.e. For laughing at a joke or for not 'challenging' someone, etc.)? In all of the jobs that I've had, my coworkers have been overwhelmingly (and many times entirely) women, and constantly, constantly make all sorts of jokes that would get someone instantly banned from revleft as a "sexist" (in my last job, the women at one of the clinics even had a "caution: women working" sign :lol:). I don't really think people from 'socially oppressed groups' are particularly any less likely to find humor in that sort of stuff than people from the 'dominant group'.

[Lily Briscoe]

Just to elaborate... when the 'demographics' are different, e.g. in the context of a workplace with mostly males and a couple females (or one black guy and a lot of white people, etc.), these sorts of jokes can take on a different kind of significance. I'm just saying I don't necessarily think you should assume that someone from an 'oppressed group' would only laugh at jokes like that because they're trying to 'prove themselves' or whatever. There seems to be an assumption on revleft a lot that people from particular 'oppressed groups' automatically have 'correct politics' and are particularly sensitive to whatever form of discrimination, and honestly I think that's bullshit.

[Quail]

Depending on the situation I either give someone an unimpressed look that says, "Really?" Or I make either a jokey or snide comment explaining why it's not okay. But I must admit I do find it difficult sometimes to speak out at the time. A couple of times I have sent people facebook messages after a particular event explaining why what they said was offensive and upsetting to me.

[RedWorker]

No matter how insignificant it may seem, society will never progress without condemning anything which involves a reactionary attitude. Stick to your principles even if it's not "cool".

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

Depending on the situation I either give someone an unimpressed look that says, "Really?" Or I make either a jokey or snide comment explaining why it's not okay. But I must admit I do find it difficult sometimes to speak out at the time. A couple of times I have sent people facebook messages after a particular event explaining why what they said was offensive and upsetting to me.

I like looks, they can be so much more powerful than words. I go with a mixture of disdain and cold murderous hatred. It usually significantly quiets down the offensive joke maker, and if that person has the courage to ask about your reaction then they have given you an opportunity to explain why the joke or comment was wrong - without you sounding preachy (they asked you after all).

Of course this kind of strategy may lose you friends, and may not always be the best way of informing people of how they can be less offensive - but it will certainly urge them to think about what they might have done to deserve your intense displeasure, and how they can avoid it in the future.

[#FF0000]

My favorite thing to do is pretend to not get it and ask if they can explain the joke to me.

[#FF0000]

Make sure to never let go until they explain it in excruciating detail and ask them to explain and unpack their explanation until they are drowning in their own perspiration as they feel all of the eyes in the world on them.

[Ele'ill]

I don't really tolerate a lot and I call folks out pretty openly but in the most cutting and personal way that I can. I want it to be public and to hurt and come out of nowhere like a mugging so they know what it feels like to have some random person hurt someone so badly. This has happened mostly within the work environments especially at meetings and stuff. I wish I was the person who could tune it out because I don't like that I like to cut my teeth like that.

[IllumiNaughty]

OP sounds like a troll

[ola.]

I'm just saying I don't necessarily think you should assume that someone from an 'oppressed group' would only laugh at jokes like that because they're trying to 'prove themselves' or whatever. There seems to be an assumption on revleft a lot that people from particular 'oppressed groups' automatically have 'correct politics' and are particularly sensitive to whatever form of discrimination, and honestly I think that's bullshit.

I understand what you're saying but I didn't assume this, this is what they themselves have told me. I mean, we're friends and we talk. I don't even know how someone can just guess these things.

And I'm not here to make an opinion on their chosen ways of dealing with racism or sexism at work. We're all stuck in this really crappy job and their main concern is to try to get through the shitty day and I understand that.

[Quail]

My favorite thing to do is pretend to not get it and ask if they can explain the joke to me.

I may have to try this one.

Another thing which I do and I'm not sure how effective this is tbh but if someone uses something synonymous with gay as an insult I call them a "fucking hetero" or something to highlight how ridiculous it is to use gay as an insult. I think that comes more from a place of frustration than thoughtful challenging though.

[Nakidana]

My favorite thing to do is pretend to not get it and ask if they can explain the joke to me.

Dammit, I had an encounter recently where this approach would have been perfect. Will have to remember it til next time. :lol: