Is it possible to be anarchist/communist yet still be in the military

[Rain]

I'm suffering from some cognitive dissonance because I've been exploring the communist, anarchist, socialist scenes in my state and agree wholeheartedly with them, yet I still really want to join the U.S. Navy and become a corpsman (which also seems to be a contradiction to the philosophies). What do you think about this? Can I still be a part of this movement and serve in the military?

[Lily Briscoe]

I still really want to join the U.S. Navy and become a corpsman

Why?

[Rain]

Why?

I really want to work on the hospital ships, but even if that doesn't happen, I want to be a medic in the military…mostly for personal reasons but also because I come from a military family.

[Fourth Internationalist]

You cannot claim to fight capitalism and willingly be a soldier for a capitalist state, let alone being one for an imperialist power like the United States.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The question that must be asked is - why do you want to join the US military? Culture? Tradition? Paying for education? The desire to get revenge on others for September 11th? As far as I am concerned it depends on your motives. And no, it doesn't mean you can't be a leftist, but some rationales for joining the military would require a level of cognitive dissonance with any leftist discourse you endorse.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

Yeah, willingly becoming an agent of imperialism doesn't seem like the most revolutionary move :)

I think I can understand where you are coming from (maybe)
There was a time too where I was very interested in an alternative to office work or other mundane labour, and craved the opportunity to die before having to think about what to do with my life.

Unfortunately there don't seem to be any decent socialist militias around (otherwise I'd be there)

[Slavic]

I'm in the Air National Guard, one year left on my contract. Joined so that I could continue going to college.

Ever think about working the civilian version of a corpsman; some sort of paramedic/EMT.

@ Nakidana;

Military training actually put me more at odds with the military culture.

[Nakidana]

You would have to participate in waging imperialist wars on behalf of the US. IMO this doesn't square with anarchist/communist beliefs, but I'm sure you'd be able to make up an excuse for yourself. Shit, we've had people on here who participated in the war in Iraq, and found it perfectly acceptable to throw stones at Iraqi children to "keep them away".

Either that or your military training would soon turn you away from communism.

The good news is that if shit really hits the fan you'll probably be right back with us as a VAW.


Military training actually put me more at odds with the military culture.

I'm happy to hear that, but not everyone is so resilient. Military training carries with it a certain mindset and culture, if you don't resist it you become susceptible to it. I'm not against learning military skills btw (use of weaponry, squad tactics, combat medicine, fitness etc etc), in fact many of those are very very useful. If I'd been conscripted I would have accepted just to acquire some of those skills. But military culture and the dehumanization of the enemy that comes along with it is bullshit, and I could never bring myself to join the army if there was the risk of actively participating in an imperialist war.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

I'm in the Air National Guard, one year left on my contract. Joined so that I could continue going to college.

Ever think about working the civilian version of a corpsman; some sort of paramedic/EMT.

@ Nakidana;

Military training actually put me more at odds with the military culture.

Wow, I'm not sure I could deal with that - idiots telling you to march around and play dress up.

Would you ditch them if they wanted to you to go to war?

[Queen Mab]

I wouldn't consider you a comrade, but if you believe in anarchist/communist principles then you are an anarchist/communist by definition.

[Slavic]

Wow, I'm not sure I could deal with that - idiots telling you to march around and play dress up.

Would you ditch them if they wanted to you to go to war?


I pretty much have.

We've had two deployments which I volunteered not to go on. They usually have no problems with their manning so they as for volunteers first. I'm usualy one of the few that doesn't go. I get shit for maybe a month or two then it drops.

The guard base is actually very casual. More like civilians with a part-time military job then military with a part-time civilian job.

I managed to get $20000, monthly paycheck, and a 4 year degree with no loans for basically showing up one weekend a month and not doing anything. I think I made out pretty well.

[Nakidana]

We've had two deployments which I volunteered not to go on.

Good on you.

[Slavic]

But military culture and the dehumanization of the enemy that comes along with it is bullshit, and I could never bring myself to join the army if there was the risk of actively participating in an imperialist war.

Precisely why I joined an Air Guard base. My risk for hostile deployments are minimal.

As you stated, I actually enjoyed the fitness and the discipline aspects of the training. Put me in a mindset to work on myself physically and mentally. The culture aspect while I was in training was what you would expect. Machismo and xenophobic.

[tallguy]

I'm suffering from some cognitive dissonance because I've been exploring the communist, anarchist, socialist scenes in my state and agree wholeheartedly with them, yet I still really want to join the U.S. Navy and become a corpsman (which also seems to be a contradiction to the philosophies). What do you think about this? Can I still be a part of this movement and serve in the military?
I understand your dillema mate. I come from a family that has some military connections. I know it's hard to hear, but, at the end of the day, an army in a capitalist system is there to protect the interests of the capitalist elites. There's just no way round that. If you come from an economically deprived area, as I did, then the forces represent a real way to break out of the poverty of your peers and that's understandable. Some of my mates went in, did their three years, got a trade and got out. They'd say they didn't have the luxury of political ideals, they just had to do what they had to do to get on. I fundamentally can't agree with that justification, but I was lucky enough/bright enough (or daft enough) to get myself a degree. For a variety of reasons, they weren't and so I didn't have to walk in their shoes or face their choices. Well, actually, that's not quite true, I did join the Scot's Guards when I was sixteen, but got chucked out after three months with a "services no longer required" order. But that's another story.

It's a tough one and I hope you make the best decision for yourself. One you can reconcile to you broader political beliefs. Good luck.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

I pretty much have.

We've had two deployments which I volunteered not to go on. They usually have no problems with their manning so they as for volunteers first. I'm usualy one of the few that doesn't go. I get shit for maybe a month or two then it drops.

The guard base is actually very casual. More like civilians with a part-time military job then military with a part-time civilian job.

I managed to get $20000, monthly paycheck, and a 4 year degree with no loans for basically showing up one weekend a month and not doing anything. I think I made out pretty well.

I hadn't expected such huge rewards. Especially considering just how astronomical higher education fees are out there. It saddens me that for some people the military is a financial necessity when there is nowhere else to turn (especially troubled young folk).

For a long time a year or two ago I considered joint the French foreign legion - apparently you can rack up about €200,000 in the 5 years if you are savvy - not to mention French citizenship under an assumed identity :)

The massive amount of monotonous cleaning, the atmosphere, and most of all the continued colonial-style suppressing of African people decided it for me.

Expanding on what I said earlier does anyone know of (or can link me to a thread of) left wing militias around the world, the 'drug dealing on the side' of FARC somewhat put me off...

[Slavic]

@Xena

My case was more the exception, not the rule. Only the Air Guard was offering those kinds of deals, and my state provided the most benefits.

Free tuition at any state school, $20,000 was a signing bonus because the job i picked was undermanned.

Not many other states provided even half of what I managed to make out with.

I honesty wish I could have gone a different route. Me and my parents only had enough money to pay for a 1 1/2 years community college. Wasn't able to get tuition or scholarships, and I'd be damned if I was going to take on $30,000+ in loans.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

I pretty much have.

We've had two deployments which I volunteered not to go on. They usually have no problems with their manning so they as for volunteers first. I'm usualy one of the few that doesn't go. I get shit for maybe a month or two then it drops.

The guard base is actually very casual. More like civilians with a part-time military job then military with a part-time civilian job.

I managed to get $20000, monthly paycheck, and a 4 year degree with no loans for basically showing up one weekend a month and not doing anything. I think I made out pretty well.

20 THOUSAND A MONTH? I'm guessing there's some kind of misunderstand, did you mean two thousand??

Either way, that sounds…. Huh, that sounds pretty fucking great actually….

EDIT: Sorry didn't see your above post. That's all in student loans?

[BIXX]

I would be interested in some of the kind of more intense training that the military provides, but that level of rigidness, the constant following of orders... Bleh. It's gross.

If it weren't for that I'd prolly use the military to train then just get out at my first opportunity as to not have to fight for the imperialist powers of the world.

[workers of the]

im israel civil and i must join the army.
im very left in my opinions but i want to be combat because i rather that i (as a humanist) would be in front Instead of someone who is right-wing that would do same function but in a less humane way.
you can call it Influence from within.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

im israel civil and i must join the army.
im very left in my opinions but i want to be combat because i rather that i (as a humanist) would be in front Instead of someone who is right-wing that would do same function but in a less humane way.
you can call it Influence from within.

You don't have to join the army. (http://peaceoptions.blogspot.ca/2014/03/50-israeli-draft-resisters-we-refuse-to.html)
You absolutely can and should refuse service.

I'm sorry, but I have precisely zero respect for trying to "influence" ethnic cleansing from within.

[Thirsty Crow]

im israel civil and i must join the army.
im very left in my opinions but i want to be combat because i rather that i (as a humanist) would be in front Instead of someone who is right-wing that would do same function but in a less humane way.
you can call it Influence from within.
So you want to kill and maim people in a more humane way.

Holy schmoly.

[The Jay]

I'm suffering from some cognitive dissonance because I've been exploring the communist, anarchist, socialist scenes in my state and agree wholeheartedly with them, yet I still really want to join the U.S. Navy and become a corpsman (which also seems to be a contradiction to the philosophies). What do you think about this? Can I still be a part of this movement and serve in the military?

Unfortunately, no. You cannot be consistent with yourself if you join the military. It will fuck with your mind pretty hard, especially after you take part in killing someone for the bourgeoisie's business interests. I wanted to join when I was younger and every single person that I know that did doesn't recommend it with about half being radicals. Take their advice and don't do it.

[tallguy]

So you want to kill and maim people in a more humane way.

Holy schmoly.No he did not say that, as you well understand. He may be wrong and even deluding himself as to what he can achieve. But, he is simply trying to square a circle that, in truth, can't be squared. Why is he doing that? Because he is presumably a good man caught in a bad system and is looking for a moral way out.

This place is full of folks ever ready with the kind of supercilious bullshit of which your post is an exemplar.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I knew a leftist who joined the US military. She turned into a conservative.

[Thirsty Crow]

No he did not say that, as you well understand. He may be wrong and even deluding himself as to what he can achieve. But, he is simply trying to square a circle that, in truth can't be squared. Why is he doing that? Because he is presumably a good man caught in a bad system and is looking for a moral way out.

This place is full of folks ever ready with the kind of supercilious bullshit of which your post is an exemplar.
Really? Maybe you have a problem with reading comprehension:


im very left in my opinions but i want to be combat



because i rather that i (as a humanist) would be in front Instead of someone who is right-wing that would do same function but in a less humane way

Now tell me again how this does not imply that a left wing soldier would not do the same thing ("the same function") but in a more humane way?

Maybe you have a problem with my blatant identification of "combat" with killing and maiming? Well that's great, it must mean that combat troops are actually humanitarian peacekeepers. Especially in the Gaza strip and surrounding areas.

[tallguy]

Really? Maybe you have a problem with reading comprehension:






Now tell me again how this does not imply that a left wing soldier would not do the same thing ("the same function") but in a more humane way?

Maybe you have a problem with my blatant identification of "combat" with killing and maiming? Well that's great, it must mean that combat troops are actually humanitarian peacekeepers. Especially in the Gaza strip and surrounding areas.
I already know what unspeakable horrors the Israeli state is responsible for, so enough with the continuance of the superciliousness. You fuckers just can't help yourselves can you.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

I'm interested, what happens to young Israelis who refuse the conscription draft?

I think Anarchists would certainly have a problem with anyone proclaiming themselves a comrade of theirs and being part of the military.

[Thirsty Crow]

I already know what unspeakable horrors the Israeli state is responsible for, so enough with the continuance of the superciliousness. You fuckers just can't help yourselves can you.
How about refuting my interpretation of that really straightforward statement instead of meaningless words?

Though, to be clear, nowhere did I say the user in question is a bad person; that's your own problem with reading stuff into my statements.

But on the other hand, only a proper fool would want to be in combat while not realizing what this entails (killing and maiming); therefore, I'm assuming the user isn't a fool and understands this. Apart from this, the post speaks for itself - it is clear in assuming that a right wing person would be inhumane in what they call the same function (I mean for fuck's sake, do you realize this?), which implies that they think of themselves as doing the very same thing more humanely.

And to top it off, we have the idea of influence from within; which is laughable on its own.

Now do tell me how the hell I misrepresent their views.

[tallguy]

I'm interested, what happens to young Israelis who refuse the conscription draft?For the most part, their refual is ignored and/or they are sent to jail. All the context of a broader culture which will make their lives extremely difficult in any event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusal_to_serve_in_the_Israeli_military

For young and impressionable minds, all of the above makes it extremely difficult to resist.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

For the most part, their refual is ignored and/or they are sent to jail. All the context of a broader culture which will make their lives extremely difficult in any event.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusal_to_serve_in_the_Israeli_military

For young and impressionable minds, all of the above makes it extremely difficult to resist.

Yet, as indicated by the article you've linked, the Refuseniks' movement does exist, and, it seems to me, any principled communist should absolutely refuse to serve in the occupied territories. For that matter, they should actively work to undermine the occupation, and failing to do so constitutes a moral failing.

To clarify - I'm not singling out Israel in this regard - I would feel the same way about any RCMP Officer, or Canadian who doesn't take seriously anti-colonial solidarity.

[Rain]

Unfortunately, no. You cannot be consistent with yourself if you join the military. It will fuck with your mind pretty hard, especially after you take part in killing someone for the bourgeoisie's business interests. I wanted to join when I was younger and every single person that I know that did doesn't recommend it with about half being radicals. Take their advice and don't do it.

I'm most likely going to be working at clinics and aboard ships attending to medical duties…I'm not joining the Marines. Most corpsmen I know have never even seen combat. Idk, I just can't decide.

[tallguy]

Yet, as indicated by the article you've linked, the Refuseniks' movement does exist, and, it seems to me, any principled communist should absolutely refuse to serve in the occupied territories. For that matter, they should actively work to undermine the occupation, and failing to do so constitutes a moral failing.

To clarify - I'm not singling out Israel in this regard - I would feel the same way about any RCMP Officer, or Canadian who doesn't take seriously anti-colonial solidarity.
Yes, it does exist and I agree, at the end of the day, about the need for refusal. However, we must also recognise, I would argue, that young people who find the cultural as well as personal courage to refuse will be doing so at the extremely vulnerable age of 18 and so need all the help they can get. Given that, I would suggest that a far better degree of success in enabling and empowering them to do so, will be achieved by encouragement and not by supercilious, dismissive, smart-arsed criticism of their moral/cultural dilemma by some on this forum and elsewhere.

To understand the actions of others and persuade them to change, we must walk in their shoes.

[The Jay]

Even if you would just be on board a clinic you are still supporting the ones that actually murder civilians for business's benefit.

[BIXX]

I'm most likely going to be working at clinics and aboard ships attending to medical duties…I'm not joining the Marines. Most corpsmen I know have never even seen combat. Idk, I just can't decide.

Unfortunately for you it is common that the US does not actually have people doing what they thought they'd be doing or even worse they lie their asses off, tell you that you'll do this or that, then put you in some really fucked up situation that is not at all what they promised you.

[Slavic]

Even if you would just be on board a clinic you are still supporting the ones that actually murder civilians for business's benefit.

O shut up. With that kind of logic I can state that if you pay taxes then you are supporting the state war machine. He is going to be a corpsman. He will never see combat and will actually learn a trade that is valuable to society.

@Echo
it all depends on your contract. Most who join the military do so with out being able to choose what job they want. If you pass the requirements and the job you want is: understaffed, you can out that job in your contract when you enlist.

Also @ OP. Have you thought about navy reserves? You can get trained as a corpsman while also getting money to go to school.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

O shut up. With that kind of logic I can state that if you pay taxes then you are supporting the state war machine. He is going to be a corpsman. He will never see combat and will actually learn a trade that is valuable to society.

I thought about that too for a second, but it's fairly obvious that there is a massive difference between paying taxes (as the law demands) and voluntarily joining the largest imperial war machine on earth.

Even the mechanics on the Death Star got what they deserved...

[tallguy]

I thought about that too for a second, but it's fairly obvious that there is a massive difference between paying taxes (as the law demands) and voluntarily joining the largest imperial war machine on earth.

Even the mechanics on the Death Star got what they deserved...Except, of course, in places like Israel it's not voluntary and in places like the USA, a person's freedom to "choose" occurs in the inescapable context of very real economic/educational/cultural/political power differentials.

I'm not saying it's okay, Far from it. I'm saying, however, that moral responsibility is a relative function of power and is not some absolute metric by which we can acontextually judge the actions of others.

[The Jay]

O shut up. With that kind of logic I can state that if you pay taxes then you are supporting the state war machine. He is going to be a corpsman. He will never see combat and will actually learn a trade that is valuable to society.

You don't get thrown in jail if you refuse to join the military with only a few exceptions. Taxes are completely different from military service in a country with a volunteer military. You sign a pledge to protect the bourgeois state through its constitution when entering the military but if you skip your taxes you are penalized by people that did take that pledge or a similar one: be they cops or others like that. Try explaining the difference between what soldiers do and cops. Let us take a look at the similarities: similar oath, similar bosses, similar structure, increasingly similar tactics, and many vets join the police. Sure, being a medic isn't the worst thing to choose out of the many MOSs but without medics the military wouldn't be able to function. This isn't just a question of "did that person pull the trigger". It is a question of enabling as well.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Expanding on what I said earlier does anyone know of (or can link me to a thread of) left wing militias around the world, the 'drug dealing on the side' of FARC somewhat put me off...

Not to be rude but I don't think it's possible to just fly to some country and join the FARC or the Naxalites. At the least they'd probably be really suspicious.

[Comrade Jacob]

Sure you can still be a communist...just not a great one.
Good Communist: Fights against capitalist state
Bad Communist: Fights for capitalist state.

[Red Economist]

I'm suffering from some cognitive dissonance because I've been exploring the communist, anarchist, socialist scenes in my state and agree wholeheartedly with them, yet I still really want to join the U.S. Navy and become a corpsman (which also seems to be a contradiction to the philosophies). What do you think about this? Can I still be a part of this movement and serve in the military?

...I really want to work on the hospital ships, but even if that doesn't happen, I want to be a medic in the military…mostly for personal reasons but also because I come from a military family.


I have been a pacifist most of my life. To be honest, my pacifist sentiments strongly conflict with my own communist beliefs on revolution, dictatorship and most especially the legitimacy of revolutionary terror and it's an on-going thought process.

The only time I've been close to this in real-life was last year, when my best friend and long-time gay-straight crush became an arms dealer. After a very drawn out, complicated and messy exchange where I tried to talk him out of it, we are no longer friends. it took me a while, but I had to accept I couldn't physically do anything for the people he was hurting (sorry, killing) beyond talk him out of it nor could I stop him because it was entirely legal.

In theory being on the far left and being in the military (in a capitalist society) are things which strongly conflict with one another- though not impossible.

The argument among Socialists/Communists in World War one was that the proletariat of all countries was fighting for their respective bourgeoisie and this split the Second International between those who supported the war (the overwhelming majority) who became the 'socialists' and those who were against the war who (eventually) became the communists.

For the 'Socialists' it depends on the degree to which they are humanist-pacifist or nationalist/patriotic. The more humanist will emphasize universal human morality as a basis for peace, whilst the Nationalist will go for national differences and conflict of interests as the basis for war.

Communism is a bit of a paradox as it has a class based attitude towards violence. it depends on whether the violence serves a class interest. I.e. "Capitalist War bad, Worker's Revolution good".

The status of "revolutionary wars" by 'Worker's States' was debated around the time of the Soviet-Polish War in the early 20's and it caused problems over the obvious self-contradiction of whether you could force another nation to be free. This was unexpected problem because Lenin, Trotsky etc, thought they were on the verge of a world revolution that would destroy nation states, form a world government and economic system and make war unnecessary.
Exporting revolution by military conquest/'liberation' by the Soviet Military was accepted as a doctorine for occupying/Sovietising eastern Europe (and North Korea) and establishing people's republics across this area in the wake of World war II.

Anarchists are going to be unequivocally against (in theory) because your associating with a 'state', but have had 'armies' in both Ukraine in the Russian Civil War and (I think) Catalonia in the Spanish Civil War. Some Anarchists are also Pacifists because violence equals coercion and loss of individual liberty.

So intellectually, 'yes' their is probably a way to be in the Far left and be in the Military.

But in truth, it really comes down to a very simple question: Are you prepared to kill another person?

The truth is that ideology- of any kind- is but a way of putting a nice shop window on political violence to get you in. even pacificism in it's absolute sense is a willingness to accept your own death, rather than kill another person. How you rationalize it, doesn't change what you are doing. Once you're in a war zone- the only way you're going to get out is by killing other people. There is a great deal of stuff in our Media, whether it is Film, Television or Gaming that casualizes, trivializes and abstracts it so that people don't think about it and warfare becomes an accepted part of the political landscape or the 'real world'.
The hero just walks around the building killing all the 'bad guys' and the bad guys just go about killing the defenceless innocent civilians who need to be saved (by the state). And then the good guys wins and he walks away fine. This is bollocks. In real life, there is very little difference between the good guys and the bad guys (except when your dealing with 'fanatics', but they are on BOTH sides, not one or the other). Often, the 'bad guys' win too.

History books are not simply written by the 'victors' but by the leaders as well. The ruling class sees a war from the rear, sitting in big open rooms with large maps, moving arrows around and thinking in terms of strategy and tactics. This is why it is so easy for them to make decisions, including bad ones. But each of these arrows represents 'people' who are risking their lives by taking someone else's. The generals cliam victory, but in all probability to the people on the front line, having to fight the war was a defeat in itself. IF they survive, they will lose friends and possibly limbs or faculties. IF they die, first, their dead, and second their relatives will lose someone they love. These are the people who you would be treating on a hospital ship.

The most common reason for being attracted to the Far Left is the desire to rebel. And if your family is in the military- it's more than likely you've got a lot to rebel against. Psychologically- that should be ringing a few alarm bells as if in your attraction to the far left means in your heart you want to rebel against your parents-now is the time before you get involved in something you can't walk away from and to chose to be free to make your own decision- what ever that may be.

[BIXX]

@Echo
it all depends on your contract. Most who join the military do so with out being able to choose what job they want. If you pass the requirements and the job you want is: understaffed, you can out that job in your contract when you enlist.

I know people who were trained (by the military) to do medical work at a base in the US, but then were shipped to Iraq for combat which they were not prepared for in any way. That is my point- it's not worth the risk IMO.

[cyu]

The world is a better place because people of honor like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning joined the military, than let it be overrun by certain duplicitous scum listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Director_of_the_National_Security_Agency

[Rain]

I thought about that too for a second, but it's fairly obvious that there is a massive difference between paying taxes (as the law demands) and voluntarily joining the largest imperial war machine on earth.

Even the mechanics on the Death Star got what they deserved...

Most people don't join the military to kill people and go to war in my opinion. Aren't there a lot of other things people do in day to day life that supports the imperial effort just as much?

[Left Voice]

^I would say the difference is that joining the army is a conscious choice. The United States does not have the draft - people choose to join the army. There may be certain special circumstances where the army is the only place some can turn to when in need (paying for tuition fees, for example), but this is usually not the case.

By comparison, earning a wage within the capitalist system (which I assume is your implication when you say "Aren't there a lot of other things people do in day to day life that supports the imperial effort just as much?") is actually not a choice. That's precisely the point - workers having to sell their labour is not a choice, it is a necessity in order to be able to feed themselves and their families. I don't think a parallel can be drawn between choosing to join the army, and the many other ways that workers have to survive within the capitalist system.

You've provided many of the explanations yourself - you come from a military background, so that has shaped your perception of the military in a certain way. Much of this experience probably needs to be unlearned. I'd say there are quite a few squares that you're trying to circle, and you should probably do that before giving your life away to the military.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Generally speaking...
Of course it is possible to be a leftist and be in the military. Many people have been duped into joining the military during an impressionable point and only after being sucked into it realize the implications of what they signed up for. There are plenty of working class kids who get sucked into that due to lack of opportunity and options combined with the lies military recruiters tell about opportunities offered by "joining up" and shit.

If you're someone who is thinking about joining the military, I strongly recommend against it.

[Hrafn]

I thought about that too for a second, but it's fairly obvious that there is a massive difference between paying taxes (as the law demands) and voluntarily joining the largest imperial war machine on earth.

Even the mechanics on the Death Star got what they deserved...

If you had read that novel, it'd be quite clear that they did not.

[workers of the]

so I read all of your comments and i really wants you be in my shoes.
if i wouldent go to the army i will be in jail for 3 years and all my friends and Accumulator including my grandfather would cut off contact.
you need to understand that i thought about this long time and the way you comment it isnt nice.
what you think would make more positive effect-
sitting in jail fo 3 years while somebody would do the exact role that i chosen for or
-
make the change from the inside. you can check a house of palastins in diffrent ways, wouldnt it make diffrance if will do it in humane way and convince my teamates to act human as well?
take from example Edward Snowden he got into the system to try change it.
think about it this way and i hope your next comments would be more nice and show more understand of my situation.

(sorry for my english, i wrote it with Enthusiasm)

[human strike]

All work reproduces capitalism. Arguably housework does more to maintain capitalism than military work. Housewives generally don't go around murdering brown people though. Swings and roundabouts, comrade.

[Left Voice]

The difference is though, that wage labour is mandatory in a capitalist system. People generally choose to join the military. Massive difference.

[tallguy]

The difference is though, that wage labour is mandatory in a capitalist system. People generally choose to join the military. Massive difference.
For some, who have little or no education and who have been brought up in economically depressed environments, "choosing" to join the military and mandatory wage labour can be, for all practical purposes, synonymous.

[mindsword]

Depends. Are you planning on taking pictures of secret prisons / top level kill-order lists and posting them on revleft? ;) In that case i salute you on your new job.

(If they tell you to kill somebody we like, just run. Or quit. Or blast em with your brand new m-16. and dont tell em we said it.)

[tallguy]

Depends. Are you planning on taking pictures of secret prisons / top level kill-order lists and posting them on revleft? ;) In that case i salute you on your new job.

(If they tell you to kill somebody we like, just run. Or quit. Or blast em with your brand new m-16. and dont tell em we said it.)
Too late, I'm afraid. I was fired three months into the job for having the "wrong attitude". Long story and a long time ago.

Still haven't managed to shake the"wrong attitude", however.

Edit to add:

Ahh...You may have been replying to the OP, in which case please disregard the above post.

[human strike]

The difference is though, that wage labour is mandatory in a capitalist system. People generally choose to join the military. Massive difference.

The military is wage labour. Perhaps there is a difference, but I don't think it's a massive one, at least not in the sense you suggest.

Anyway, @OP don't join the military, it's fucking grim.

[tallguy]

......Anyway, @OP don't join the military, it's fucking grim.yep

[mindsword]

Too late, I'm afraid. I was fired three months into the job for having the "wrong attitude". Long story and a long time ago.

Still haven't managed to shake the"wrong attitude", however.

Edit to add:

Ahh...You may have been replying to the OP, in which case please disregard the above post.

it was a reply to the OP :P

[Slavic]

Depends. Are you planning on taking pictures of secret prisons / top level kill-order lists and posting them on revleft? ;) In that case i salute you on your new job.

(If they tell you to kill somebody we like, just run. Or quit. Or blast em with your brand new m-16. and dont tell em we said it.)

Thats a good way to get yourself killed/throw in prison and not accomplish anything meaningful.

A good deal of us joined because it is a steady paycheck. Granted I am a Guardsman so I still hold a civilian job, but while I was in boot camp a good deal of the active duty folks there joined because they needed work and couldn't go to school. There are always the people that join for ideological reasons but they are not always in the majority.

This is Air Force mind you, I am not sure how the breakdown of attitudes run along the different services.

[consuming negativity]

If you're in the United States, our armed forces will make the decision for you. If they catch you being affiliated with anti-government anarchist/communist groups, you'll eventually get canned.


Yet, as indicated by the article you've linked, the Refuseniks' movement does exist, and, it seems to me, any principled communist should absolutely refuse to serve in the occupied territories. For that matter, they should actively work to undermine the occupation, and failing to do so constitutes a moral failing.

To clarify - I'm not singling out Israel in this regard - I would feel the same way about any RCMP Officer, or Canadian who doesn't take seriously anti-colonial solidarity.

Morality without severe sacrifice is not an option for many people. Moreover, there's not much point in becoming another name that gets thrown in jail one day whom we never hear from again. I would say that an intelligent, successful undermining of the occupation is moral and to be lauded, but to judge each and every person with their own individual situations as immoral for not actively working against the occupation is absurd and alienating for many good people.

[MarxSchmarx]

so I read all of your comments and i really wants you be in my shoes.
if i wouldent go to the army i will be in jail for 3 years and all my friends and Accumulator including my grandfather would cut off contact.
you need to understand that i thought about this long time and the way you comment it isnt nice.
what you think would make more positive effect-
sitting in jail fo 3 years while somebody would do the exact role that i chosen for or
-
make the change from the inside. you can check a house of palastins in diffrent ways, wouldnt it make diffrance if will do it in humane way and convince my teamates to act human as well?
take from example Edward Snowden he got into the system to try change it.
think about it this way and i hope your next comments would be more nice and show more understand of my situation.

(sorry for my english, i wrote it with Enthusiasm)

It's simply too easy for those of us who don't have to face this choice to tell you to "stand up for what you believe in" and suffer so heavily for it.

Many admire those who do things the hard way. We had a poster here who was sent to jail for several months recently for refusing conscription. But several months is different from several years. If you'd like to get in touch with them, ask them their perspective, I could try to dig up their info for you.

One thing you should consider in your situation is whether you can get an exemption as a pacifist. From what I understand, under Israeli law people who are committed pacifists can be exempt from military service, although it seems the requirements for proving one's pacifism are quite steep:

http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/4/9/6/5/9/p496594_index.html?phpsessid=43vojt2qdabth6cfj5fs2 3c816

This wouldn't solve the issues with your family and this would make your subsequent life more difficult.

Understand that the OP asked about the US Navy, which is at present voluntary, so don't take the arguments raised in this thread too seriously for your situation. Conscription is a whole other can of worms.

[DasFapital]

I have a cousin who is a recruiter. Some of the strategies I have heard him talk about using to ensure potential recruits are basically straight up manipulation and bribery. I really wanted to join the military when I graduated high school and met with many dipshit recruiters. Nothing sadder than a uniformed tool in his early 30s referring to you as "bro". Anyway my family convinced me to wait a while and think about it. Eventually, after seeing how the Afghan war fucked up some people I knew and just becoming more alienated from the bro culture in general I changed my mind.