Every Cuban I know hates Cuba

[orihara]

I live in Miami, where the majority of the population is Cuban. All the Cubans I know here hate Cube, they tell me these stories how everyone was poor, houses were pitiful, no freedom, etc. One man even told me a story of how there was nothing for children, and how a store only let him have one roller skate because another kid could use the other (so he could only skate on one foot), and how he almost tried with joy where he got one stick of gum that his father smuggled. From this, life sounds horrible there. I am a Communist, but I don't know how to refute these stories.
Any help on clarifying this topic?

[jake williams]

I live in Miami, where the majority of the population is Cuban. All the Cubans I know here hate Cube, they tell me these stories how everyone was poor, houses were pitiful, no freedom, etc.
Lol.


One man even told me a story of how there was nothing for children, and how a store only let him have one roller skate because another kid could use the other (so he could only skate on one foot)
That sounds made up.

[ArisVelouxiotis]

Being a communist doesn't mean you should support opressive states like Cuba.Cuba doesn't have anything to do with communism as I am sure a lot of people on this forum agree.

[motion denied]

It's not like gusanos will have positive things to say about Cuba.

Call their bullshit. It surely sounds made up.

[Sinister Intents]

I've heard plenty of positives about Cuba on RevLeft, and it sounds like a happier place than the bullshit and propaganda states.

[consuming negativity]

All of the Cubans in Miami are people who actually made an effort to move out of Cuba to another country. Many of them are probably political dissidents. Of course they aren't going to have nice things to say about Cuba. That would be like getting all of our information on North Korea from people who fled the country.

Hmm....

That isn't to say that either group of people are lying. But you have to understand that you're only getting to read the hate mail, and that some things may be exaggerated or fabricated, or may not tell the full story. But, yes, there are certainly negatives to living in Cuba, and you shouldn't completely discount that thousands of people are willing to risk their lives to leave the island and go to Miami. But then, if most of them are capitalist supporters of the old even-shittier-than-Castro Batista dictatorship, do you really think that their experiences are those of the majority of Cubans? Probably not. Don't be an apologist for bullshit, but don't believe everything you hear, either. It's a hard balance to find.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

There are many reasons to not advocate the political system in Cuba, but there are equally many reasons to not believe bullshit that comes out the mouths of Cuban-Americans.

They are normally the people, or the offspring of people, who fled Cuba in 1959 after the revolution because their wealth was under threat.

Of all the reasons to critique Cuba, I would think that a lack of roller skates, and that eponymous vacuity of a word 'freedom', which everyone supports but nobody defines, are pretty piss poor reasons. Of all the reasons for hating Cuba, perhaps people in glass houses should not throw rocks towards 'poor housing', poverty, and lack of freedom. Look at the poverty that pervades the USA.

[ArisVelouxiotis]

All of the Cubans in Miami are people who actually made an effort to move out of Cuba to another country. Many of them are probably political dissidents. Of course they aren't going to have nice things to say about Cuba. That would be like getting all of our information on North Korea from people who fled the country.

Hmm....

That isn't to say that either group of people are lying. But you have to understand that you're only getting to read the hate mail, and that some things may be exaggerated or fabricated, or may not tell the full story. But, yes, there are certainly negatives to living in Cuba, and you shouldn't completely discount that thousands of people are willing to risk their lives to leave the island and go to Miami. But then, if most of them are capitalist supporters of the old even-shittier-than-Castro Batista dictatorship, do you really think that their experiences are those of the majority of Cubans? Probably not. Don't be an apologist for bullshit, but don't believe everything you hear, either. It's a hard balance to find.

The answer is on the last paragraph.It is indeed a hard balance to find.

[tachosomoza]

I've met black Cubans who've said that they preferred Castro because he ended segregation, got rid of the mob, and actually treated them like human beings. Of course rich white Cubans who benefited from Batista's rule hate Castro, they have no reason to like him. Fuck them. They're not the people we fight for and seek to organize, they're the people whose large tracts of land we expropriate and whose workers we free.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Sure, they hate Cuba, but for most of them it is for all the wrong reasons. Their parent's and grandparent's upper-class privelages were taken away by the new Stalinist ruling class after Castro and Co. took over. They were replaced, and that makes them and their children and grand children angry to this day.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I've heard plenty of positives about Cuba on RevLeft, and it sounds like a happier place than the bullshit and propaganda states.

Replace "Cuba" with any other psuedo-socialist state capitalist country, like North Korea, and you'll see this sounds ridiculous. Unfortunately, Cuba and other countries like Venezuela are so loved and adored by the confused left. The populist rhetoric touted by these countries is so convincing to many leftists, and it's quite sad to think rhetoric like that has managed to convince many that those countries are "socialist," or at least that those countries are something revolutionaries should support, as if they can be reformed to a "true" or "correct path" to socialism without a full-blown, state-smashing workers' revolution that entails the destruction of Castro's or Chavez's "socialism."

[Lensky]

Cuba and Venezuela are providing models of what needs to be done in the third world to resist American coups and their neoliberal imperialist policies. They must always be supported, except in the case of privatization.

The dissidents may be correct in their grievances and analysis, but they are representing the ideologies of the class they represent, that being the bourgeois or petite-bourgeois. We do not support revolutions because they are more humanitarian than the current status quo, that is a weak humanist argument and too grounded with liberalism.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

There are many reasons to not advocate the political system in Cuba, but there are equally many reasons to not believe bullshit that comes out the mouths of Cuban-Americans.

They are normally the people, or the offspring of people, who fled Cuba in 1959 after the revolution because their wealth was under threat.

Of all the reasons to critique Cuba, I would think that a lack of roller skates, and that eponymous vacuity of a word 'freedom', which everyone supports but nobody defines, are pretty piss poor reasons. Of all the reasons for hating Cuba, perhaps people in glass houses should not throw rocks towards 'poor housing', poverty, and lack of freedom. Look at the poverty that pervades the USA.

That was really well written.

[Sinister Intents]

Replace "Cuba" with any other psuedo-socialist state capitalist country, like North Korea, and you'll see this sounds ridiculous. Unfortunately, Cuba and other countries like Venezuela are so loved and adored by the confused left. The populist rhetoric touted by these countries is so convincing to many leftists, and it's quite sad to think rhetoric like that has managed to convince many that those countries are "socialist," or at least that those countries are something revolutionaries should support, as if they can be reformed to a "true" or "correct path" to socialism without a full-blown, state-smashing workers' revolution that entails the destruction of Castro's or Chavez's "socialism."

Indeed comrade, but still Cuba sounds better than the other pseudosocialist nations, and I know fully well there are no socialist countries and that socialist country or similar phrases are oxymorons. Still though I'd say Cuba is better than the DPRK

[adipocere]

I live in Miami, where the majority of the population is Cuban. All the Cubans I know here hate Cube, they tell me these stories how everyone was poor, houses were pitiful, no freedom, etc. One man even told me a story of how there was nothing for children, and how a store only let him have one roller skate because another kid could use the other (so he could only skate on one foot), and how he almost tried with joy where he got one stick of gum that his father smuggled. From this, life sounds horrible there. I am a Communist, but I don't know how to refute these stories.
Any help on clarifying this topic?


Emotional, anecdotal pleas are a bullwark of reactionary thought. I am assuming that when you say you don't know how to refute these anti-communist folk tales, you mean it would literally be rude to belittle/question peoples experiences, real or imagined. That's the beauty of reactionary thought isn't it? Any discussion of fact or wider politics becomes a personal attack.
There is probably no elegant way around this sort of manipulation, unless you are exceptionally charming and witty.

[Comrade Jacob]

In short: It's cos they were kicked out or wanted to play capitalist.

[synthesis]

That's the beauty of reactionary thought isn't it? Any discussion of fact or wider politics becomes a personal attack.

To be fair, that's not exactly limited to one side of the political spectrum.

[motion denied]

Replace "Cuba" with any other psuedo-socialist state capitalist country, like North Korea, and you'll see this sounds ridiculous. Unfortunately, Cuba and other countries like Venezuela are so loved and adored by the confused left. The populist rhetoric touted by these countries is so convincing to many leftists, and it's quite sad to think rhetoric like that has managed to convince many that those countries are "socialist," or at least that those countries are something revolutionaries should support, as if they can be reformed to a "true" or "correct path" to socialism without a full-blown, state-smashing workers' revolution that entails the destruction of Castro's or Chavez's "socialism."

How horrifying. You start very well comparing Cuba to North Korea, props!

I, for one, am not convinced by rhetoric, but rather by the increase of the working class quality of life as well as more liberty towards political organisation. These countries, mainly Venezuela, may be laying the foundations of its own overcome. As an wise old man once told me: "class struggle starts with three meals a day".

Of course none of these states are on the way of socialism. That's why I don't support these states (or any state for that matter), but their working class; which means, rather than ramble about the sacred revolutionary party, defend the small achievements.

On the other hand, none anti-working-class policy should be overlooked.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Replace "Cuba" with any other psuedo-socialist state capitalist country, like North Korea, and you'll see this sounds ridiculous. Unfortunately, Cuba and other countries like Venezuela are so loved and adored by the confused left. The populist rhetoric touted by these countries is so convincing to many leftists, and it's quite sad to think rhetoric like that has managed to convince many that those countries are "socialist," or at least that those countries are something revolutionaries should support, as if they can be reformed to a "true" or "correct path" to socialism without a full-blown, state-smashing workers' revolution that entails the destruction of Castro's or Chavez's "socialism."

I don't think it particularly helps to generalise countries by pigeon-holing them. Just as capitalist countries may 'be capitalist', but still have wildly different living standards, levels of social liberalism, social and cultural norms and traditions etc. which make for a varied living experience (compare living in downtown Detroit to living in North-West London to living in the 'burbs in Munich to living in the centre of Moscow), so is the same for other capitalist countries that choose to fly red flags.

Cuba, Venezuela and North Korea probably are as varied in terms of living experiences as anywhere on the planet. Respectively, they would seem to involve stability but quite a lot of poverty and lack of infrastructure, welfare but with horrific violence, and total isolation/submission to a brutal dictatorship.

It is indeed sad that the meaning of socialism (and indeed communism) has gotten lost as countries such as the above three (not to mention China, the former USSR, the former GDR etc.) have hijacked the name and the symbolism of the communist philosophy, but let's also not just generalise and pigeon-hole these countries together, it doesn't really help our analysis of their respective societies.

[Red Commissar]

Most of the Cuban community that lives in Florida are going to be against the Cuban government- that's a primary reason why they would leave the country in the first place. This is especially the case with first and second-generation Cubans (I mean this by what wave they came in) who originally left following the revolution and had among other things political differences with the government and were adversely affected by nationalizations or the end of American domination in the economy they were involved with in some capacity. There was the same overtones with those who took up the offer on the boat airlift. Cubans who came later are less political, 90s and onwards and typically left feeling they'd have better opportunities abroad, the US being a natural destination since there was an established Cuban community they could start in, but do not prioritize their political beef as much as the early emigrants. However, the political discourse in the community is dominated by the first-generation Cubans (you can see this in spanish-speaking media... univision and galavision are pretty nasty as far as news coverage goes) and accordingly is all they will hear and incorporate if they care.

Take in consideration two teabaggers in the US Senate, Marco Rubio of Florida and Ted Cruz of Texas, whose parents had fled to the United States from Cuba, and got recognition with the tea party's obsession of fighting Obama's "socialism" since they- but really their parents- had been victims of communism! Both of them make it a point to stress how minor social programs that teabaggers don't like are but a slippery slope to Cuba. They spend most of their time appealing to insecure whites rather than their community (much less other Hispanics, who don't have a good image of them anyways and this is reciprocated), but they had their image to uphold among the first-generation Cubans, especially those who managed to become influential businessmen, politicians, and the like. In this case, Marco Rubio had to establish his anti-Castro credentials since his father had in fact originally left Cuba as an opponent of the Batista regime rather than the Castro one later, and this was enough for him to stress later that his dad was an opponent of Castro too to avoid being torn down by the power-brokers in the Miami area.

We're seeing the same thing occurring now with Venezuelans abroad. In the past ten years we've seen a growth in the expat communities in Florida and elsewhere, the main figures of the community styling themselves as political refugees and accordingly do not have many kind words to say about Chavismo, much less about socialism in principle even if you're going to try and argue that *insert country* really ain't socialist.

I will say though as far as Cuba's living standards are concerned they are on the whole lower than the US's but it's pretty comparable to other nations in the Caribbean and Central America. So they aren't unique to this problem, countries with presumably liberal democracies face similar problems. I don't think that this is an accomplishment but it is a simplification to say that Cuba is the way it is because of its current system.

[Loony Le Fist]

I am a second generation Cuban-American. I have been to Cuba a handful of times, but did not live through the revolution. A large portion of my family left Cuba for the US, and they were certainly not bourgeois. So I feel compelled to comment here.


Replace "Cuba" with any other psuedo-socialist state capitalist country, like North Korea, and you'll see this sounds ridiculous. Unfortunately, Cuba and other countries like Venezuela are so loved and adored by the confused left. The populist rhetoric touted by these countries is so convincing to many leftists, and it's quite sad to think rhetoric like that has managed to convince many that those countries are "socialist," or at least that those countries are something revolutionaries should support, as if they can be reformed to a "true" or "correct path" to socialism without a full-blown, state-smashing workers' revolution that entails the destruction of Castro's or Chavez's "socialism."

This is a great comment.


I've met black Cubans who've said that they preferred Castro because he ended segregation, got rid of the mob, and actually treated them like human beings.


At first perhaps. But then things changed. Batista was a scumbag who supported things that were even more oppressive. It's just a shame you hear more negative about Fidel Castro. But that's probably because he was in charge of the island more recently when Mariel occurred.



Of course rich white Cubans who benefited from Batista's rule hate Castro, they have no reason to like him. Fuck them. They're not the people we fight for and seek to organize, they're the people whose large tracts of land we expropriate and whose workers we free.

None of Cubans I know have any love for Batista either. He was pretty much a corporatist. He allowed American corporations and mobsters into Cuba so they could use the Cuban people as slave labor.


All of the Cubans in Miami are people who actually made an effort to move out of Cuba to another country. Many of them are probably political dissidents. Of course they aren't going to have nice things to say about Cuba. That would be like getting all of our information on North Korea from people who fled the country.


But I think you have to ask the reasons why they fled. While some are political dissidents, many more saw the deterioration of their lives and made the choice to attempt to improve their conditions.



That isn't to say that either group of people are lying. But you have to understand that you're only getting to read the hate mail, and that some things may be exaggerated or fabricated, or may not tell the full story.


One of my family members worked at a meat packaging facility. Because the meat rations became so bad, he could barely feed his family. So he had to steal meat from the factory. He was eventually caught and treated as a political dissident. Trying to feed your family in hard times because of poor economic management is not an act of sedition. It is an act of compassion.



But, yes, there are certainly negatives to living in Cuba, and you shouldn't completely discount that thousands of people are willing to risk their lives to leave the island and go to Miami. But then, if most of them are capitalist supporters of the old even-shittier-than-Castro Batista dictatorship, do you really think that their experiences are those of the majority of Cubans? Probably not. Don't be an apologist for bullshit, but don't believe everything you hear, either. It's a hard balance to find.

It is an experience for a large portion of them. Having been to Cuba, the island is poor. About the only thing good is the medical care, but that's only in the major cities and for some groups of people.


I've heard plenty of positives about Cuba on RevLeft, and it sounds like a happier place than the bullshit and propaganda states.

It isn't a very happy place for many people. A large majority of where I visited was decimated. I wouldn't want to live there myself.


Being a communist doesn't mean you should support opressive states like Cuba.Cuba doesn't have anything to do with communism as I am sure a lot of people on this forum agree.

Here, here. It is an oppressive state. It is certainly not quite as bad as the DPRK, but it is bad.



I live in Miami, where the majority of the population is Cuban. All the Cubans I know here hate Cube, they tell me these stories how everyone was poor, houses were pitiful, no freedom, etc. One man even told me a story of how there was nothing for children, and how a store only let him have one roller skate because another kid could use the other (so he could only skate on one foot),

Life is bad there, and despite the rhetoric from the state there is very little freedom. I don't know if I would believe the roller skate story.



and how he almost tried with joy where he got one stick of gum that his father smuggled. From this, life sounds horrible there. I am a Communist, but I don't know how to refute these stories.
Any help on clarifying this topic?

The story about the gum I can believe.

Life is horrible there. But you don't have to refute Cuba to be a communist. Cuba is a dictatorship. Communism without democracy ceases to be communism, as is communism in a single country. Again, those people's experiences with what they consider communism is different from what the term actually means.

[ArisVelouxiotis]

Here, here. It is an oppressive state. It is certainly not quite as bad as the DPRK, but it is bad.

Where did I compare it with the n.k?

[Loony Le Fist]

Where did I compare it with the n.k?

You didn't. I did. :grin:

[Fourth Internationalist]

I don't think it particularly helps to generalise countries by pigeon-holing them. Just as capitalist countries may 'be capitalist', but still have wildly different living standards, levels of social liberalism, social and cultural norms and traditions etc. which make for a varied living experience (compare living in downtown Detroit to living in North-West London to living in the 'burbs in Munich to living in the centre of Moscow), so is the same for other capitalist countries that choose to fly red flags.

Cuba, Venezuela and North Korea probably are as varied in terms of living experiences as anywhere on the planet. Respectively, they would seem to involve stability but quite a lot of poverty and lack of infrastructure, welfare but with horrific violence, and total isolation/submission to a brutal dictatorship.

It is indeed sad that the meaning of socialism (and indeed communism) has gotten lost as countries such as the above three (not to mention China, the former USSR, the former GDR etc.) have hijacked the name and the symbolism of the communist philosophy, but let's also not just generalise and pigeon-hole these countries together, it doesn't really help our analysis of their respective societies.

When combatting the illusions that much of the left has for Cuba and Venezuela, it does do good to point out that those places still remain capitalist, just like North Korea is. It is a good idea, I agree, to talk about the reforms that make Cuba and Venezuela better for workers than North Korea, but only in the context of defending those reforms from state attacks and pointing out the need for a revolutionary overthrow of capitalism in those countries.

[Loony Le Fist]

Just to add a thought. It is a shame that nearly all my family are very vocal about criticizing Fidel and Raul. But what I find interesting is that slips their mind that Batista was just as bad if not worse. It is a shame the island has never experienced the democracy of other places. It has had a history of tyrants.

Back when my politics were different and I didn't know better, I always wondered by the US would go thousands of miles to free people from tyrants. Yet they couldn't travel 90 miles to free the Cuban people. I would always bring that up when my Republican Cuban family would cheer on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Please forgive my naivety. :laugh: Then I read, watched, and listened to Noam Chomsky and understood the reasons.

[Redistribute the Rep]

Of course if you only ask people who moved out of Cuba they will tell you Cuba sucks. That would be like asking the right wingers who threaten to move out of the country if ObamaCare is implemented, what they think of ObamaCare. Not that I'm an Obama supporter, but you're going to a skewed set of responses compared to what you would get if you took your sample from the general population.

[tachosomoza]

But what I find interesting is that slips their mind that Batista was just as bad if not worse.

For some people, like white bourgeois Cubans, white America, and La Cosa Nostra, Batista was awesome. He let them do whatever they wanted as long as he got a cut, he maintained the old Spanish system of segregation and the racist caste system that would make an old white Southerner blush, and he was incompetent/didn't keep an eye on anything pertaining to the welfare of the people as a whole. In addition to being an American puppet.

[RedWorker]

That's because Cuba is a state capitalist Soviet-style single-party state, which many leftists would agree is not a true form of socialism, and which definitely has nothing to do with communism.

Either way, although nobody can say that there is "freedom" there, Cuba is not a North Korea, and Castro is definitely not a Stalin. Since the Cuban Revolution, there have been great improvements done in the quality of life. Education and healthcare in Cuba at all levels is completely free and they are of the highest quality in the entire world. They are the only country in their region to have eradicated malnutrition, says UNICEF. And many other great achievements.

[Ocean Seal]

I live in Miami, where the majority of the population is Cuban. All the Cubans I know here hate Cube, they tell me these stories how everyone was poor, houses were pitiful, no freedom, etc. One man even told me a story of how there was nothing for children, and how a store only let him have one roller skate because another kid could use the other (so he could only skate on one foot), and how he almost tried with joy where he got one stick of gum that his father smuggled. From this, life sounds horrible there. I am a Communist, but I don't know how to refute these stories.
Any help on clarifying this topic?
Congratulations you found out that emigrants who left as a result of a political loss, hate the victorious administration. Cuba isn't socialist, never has been, and is getting progressively more capitalist, but that doesn't mean you should believe the sob story of exploiting bourgeois pricks. And also, why does poverty surprise everyone. The vast majority of the world is the "third world," "socialism" nor capitalism will cure that.

[Five Year Plan]

As others have pointed out, the problem with the OP can be summarized in two words: "convenience sample."

[Rss]

I'm not defending nature of current Cuban state, but gUSAnos bashing Cuba is nothing new, nor should it be paid any serious attention.

[Delenda Carthago]

Just a litle supm about the "boo-hoo, no freedoooooom:crying::crying::crying:" bs.


http://www.cuba-solidarity.org.uk/faqdocs/Cuban-political-system-facts.pdf


Can be found with 30'' searching btw. Just imagine the amount of stupidity of people who take a stance on the subject without even searching about it. AND, mostly those that call themselves "communists" and cry because the Cuba never had democracy like us.:crying::crying::crying::crying:

[Tim Cornelis]

Just a litle supm about the "boo-hoo, no freedoooooom:crying::crying::crying:" bs.


http://www.cuba-solidarity.org.uk/faqdocs/Cuban-political-system-facts.pdf


Can be found with 30'' searching btw. Just imagine the amount of stupidity of people who take a stance on the subject without even searching about it. AND, mostly those that call themselves "communists" and cry because the Cuba never had democracy like us.:crying::crying::crying::crying:

God you're so obnoxious. And apparently quite gullible if you think there's a functional democracy, and think what exists on paper exists in society.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Just a litle supm about the "boo-hoo, no freedoooooom:crying::crying::crying:" bs.


http://www.cuba-solidarity.org.uk/faqdocs/Cuban-political-system-facts.pdf


Can be found with 30'' searching btw. Just imagine the amount of stupidity of people who take a stance on the subject without even searching about it. AND, mostly those that call themselves "communists" and cry because the Cuba never had democracy like us.:crying::crying::crying::crying:

The poster above is right, you are hugely obnoxious, and ignorant yourself if you believe everything in that document you've linked.

Granted, I think there are elements of grassroots democracy in the Cuban system, but my suspicion is that there is also a network of secret informants within the CDRs that mean supposed 'democracy' is a bit of a sham on the local level, although it certainly has the beginnings of something more fruitful than other countries.

I think it is widely accepted that democracy at a national level is non-existent. Just as in bourgeois democracies money, incumbency and economic muscle buy political power, so in the Cuban system incumbency and the patronage of Fidel, Raul et al. buys political power.

It's not necessarily the worst system in the world relative to the bourgeois democracies of western capitalist countries, but you display a huge arrogance, combined with naivety, in your attitude towards others. I would suggest that arrogance and naivety are two attributes you don't really want all at once. :rolleyes:

[Delenda Carthago]

God, you are fuckin annoying idiots.

So, we are talking about a situation that the Constitution of the country is violated. And you are sure that this is a reality. I mean you are calling me naive for posting the State's rules, while you suppose that these rules dont apply, because. To make it even simplier so people like you can understand, I post facts, you say what you suspect, while never been there, or have any real proof to prove me wrong.

Nice.

So now, everything I can also post to prove my point, you can just shut it down and just keep on your original claim. What a productive way to have a conversation...

[Delenda Carthago]

Btw, to anyone out there with brain cells still functioning, I will give an example.

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Democratic_Socialist_Current)exists. That party, that believes that "1959 freezes the social debate. The Cuban Revolution with its attendant double expectations and frustration seized the anxious questions and monopolized all possible answers to the needs of cultural activity, political and social." and want to return to the rational basis of the discussion of ideas.", can have its people elected to state institutions.



Oh, my god. The reppresion. The totalitarianism. The Horror....The Horror...:crying:

[consuming negativity]

God, you are fuckin annoying idiots.

So, we are talking about a situation that the Constitution of the country is violated. And you are sure that this is a reality. I mean you are calling me naive for posting the State's rules, while you suppose that these rules dont apply, because. To make it even simplier so people like you can understand, I post facts, you say what you suspect, while never been there, or have any real proof to prove me wrong.

Nice.

So now, everything I can also post to prove my point, you can just shut it down and just keep on your original claim. What a productive way to have a conversation...

I don't agree with the name-calling and other disrespect, but the .pdf you posted is hardly a sheet of facts. It is sourced only to a website whose URL is "cuba solidarity", without any sources for any of the information beyond that. Much of it reads like an opinion piece, and it makes very bold claims such as 95% election turnout which is almost, if not impossible to achieve in any population so large. Everyone in this thread is right to scrutinize this source of yours, as it's essentially an unsubstantiated propaganda piece.

[Tim Cornelis]

God, you are fuckin annoying idiots.

So, we are talking about a situation that the Constitution of the country is violated. And you are sure that this is a reality. I mean you are calling me naive for posting the State's rules, while you suppose that these rules dont apply, because. To make it even simplier so people like you can understand, I post facts, you say what you suspect, while never been there, or have any real proof to prove me wrong.

Nice.

No, not really, that's just assumptions you're making. You take these things at face value while they do not correspond to reality. I can post the state's rules of Portugal's New State, the para-fascist regime, and point out (much like your 'facts') that elections were regularly held. Between 1933 and 1975, 11 elections were held in Portugal -- one every 4 years (more than Cuba). I can then say that Portugal was a democratic country under the Estado Novo regime and that the para-fascist National Union enjoyed massive popular support as evidenced by the election results. These are all 'facts' as well. And then, if you criticise these preposterous notions, I can use the preposterous argument that "you've never been there". As if having been somewhere makes you knowledgeable on the politics of that area, or, for that matter, as if not having been somewhere disallows you from judging it.

Here are some facts:


The authorities continued to severely restrict the freedom of expression, assembly, and association of political dissidents, journalists and human rights activists. They were subjected to arbitrary house arrest and other restrictions on their movements by the authorities and government supporters which prevented them from carrying out legitimate and peaceful activities. All media remained under the control of the Cuban government.


Although the authorities say that candidates were chosen by the people and
that membership of the Communist Party was not an important factor for
election, in reality the system established by the Electoral Law of 1992
does not make it genuinely possible for persons opposed to the Government
and not looked on favourably by the authorities to compete freely. One of
the provisions of the Law is that lists of candidates are drawn up by the
Candidature Commissions, made up of representatives of the Cuban Workers'
Federation, the Committees for the Defence of the Revolution, the Federation
of Cuban Women, the National Small Farmers' Association, the University
Students' Federation and the Federation of Secondary School Students. In
proposing candidates, the Commissions must seek the views of any
institutions, organizations and labour federations that it deems necessary,
as well as of delegates to the Municipal Assemblies. These Assemblies can
approve or reject one or all of the proposed candidates, in which case the
Candidature Commissions must submit others. The nomination of candidates for
election to the Municipal Assemblies is done by nominating assemblies, in
which all voters are entitled to propose candidates. In practice, however,
these district assemblies are usually organized by the Committees for the
Defence of the Revolution or the Communist Party, which makes the selection
of an opponent of the regime most unlikely.
...
Furthermore, all the voters know about the
candidates is what is contained in the biographical notes distributed by the
government press, and candidates are not able to present their own electoral
platform.
...
All in all, the electoral process is so tightly controlled that
the final phase, i.e. the voting itself, could be dispensed with without the
final result being substantially affected.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/iachr_cuba_elections.htm

Under these conditions, where critics are subject to harassment, repression, detention, and arrest, participatory democracy on a local level, especially with a massive presence of secret services, cannot function properly. At best, local participation in Cuba is consultative, a means of empowerment that exists in Cambodia, India, the Netherlands, and all kinds of bourgeois society. It's not worth supporting, and it's certainly not revolutionary.

(note: I suspect that you will critice my source. Amnesty International disproportionally criticises the USA, so it's not a US tool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty_International#Country_focus )

Insisting that Cuba is a functioning democracy, by any standard, is ridiculous. It is not, and thinking it is is delusional, and it puts you on a wrong path of repeating the same mistakes again and again (namely Marxism-Leninism and bourgeois dictatorships under the guise of socialism). How about focusing instead on abolishing capital (and not say communists who do are not real "communists" for not supporting a regime where capital has not been abolished).

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Gusanos...

[mindsword]

THATS PROLLY WHY THEY LEFT

OHH!!! badum pish

anyways cuba has great projects going on. they feed everyone, they have free healthcare, and free housing, free education, almost everyone grows food and USA hates em. and che guevara is my idol.

im sure some will disagree. cuba is not perfect but its (was, at least) on the right track. US sanctions has had its toll on the small island. david vs goliath. you cant rly do much with the worlds largest bully living next door. all kudos for cuba.

[HellaGoose]

I am the son of Cuban immigrants...and visited Cuba for the first time a couple years ago. Things are surely not as bad as folks here in Miami say they are...but I will also say that even my hardcore pro-Castro relatives in Cuba, some of which still work for the government to this day, are disappointed in how things have turned out there, and not particularly happy with their lives.

Whether it is the fault of the Cuban government, US government, or a mix of both (my personal opinion), is another debate...but from my experience, most Cubans appreciate certain things the 'revolution' has given the country, but most Cubans also believe big changes are way overdue.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I'm no fan of the current Cuban government, personally, but I'm sure there's a ton of garbage out there to be taken with a grain of salt. Someone was claiming to me just the other day that Christianity is illegal there, but judging by what I've heard of Catholicism in Cuba I'm not so sure that's true...

Of course, one can dislike the current government without endorsing what came before it, and without endorsing privatization. It depends on the alternatives these people are suggesting.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Gusanos...

A lot of Cuban Americans left Cuba in the 90's during the economic downturn there.

[Bala Perdida]

What are the thoughts here on the Movimiento Libertario Cubano? Exiled Cuban anarchists/Cuban decendants. I also personally think it's okay to criticise these regimes and denounce them for the tragedies they are, but I hate when capitalists do it because they're just exploiting and exaggarating the situation for their own means. Also, when the moderates follow them, being misinformed and calling for regime change. Like installing a puppet regime is gonna be much better.
I saw a Nobel award winner on TV today say Venezuela made a mistake with Chavez like Germany with Hitler. He then said Venezuela was heading down the path to becoming North Korea or Cuba. All I thought was "f*ck you" he has no right to criticize them being so fucking ignorant and obviously blinded be crude anti-socialism.

[Prometeo liberado]

And every Frenchman I know that lives here hates America, but agrees with the majority of us that though Marissa Thome is a living goddess she should never have won an Oscar for "My cousin Vinnie".

[A Revolutionary Tool]

It's funny to hear people complain about how Cuba has some poor housing while living in a country like the U.S. where thousands upon thousands don't even have a home to complain about it being shitty. Especially considering we're the richest country on Earth. What's that saying about a plank in your eye?

[Prometeo liberado]

It's funny to hear people complain about how Cuba has some poor housing while living in a country like the U.S. where thousands upon thousands don't even have a home to complain about it being shitty. Especially considering we're the richest country on Earth. What's that saying about a plank in your eye?

Spend a day in Tijuana.

[Sea]

Americans usually do hate Cube [sic]. You have been talking to Americans. Cubans live in Cuba. If you want to know what Cubans think, you have to talk to Cubans.
It's funny to hear people complain about how Cuba has some poor housing while living in a country like the U.S. where thousands upon thousands don't even have a home to complain about it being shitty. Especially considering we're the richest country on Earth. What's that saying about a plank in your eye?You can't just say that a country is "rich". That's stupid. Lichtenstein is the real richest country on earth!!!

[Loony Le Fist]

Just an aside, I find the Cuban National Anthem to be very beautiful and revolutionary sounding. The lyrics and music are very moving. There are more verses, but I've only included the ones that are sung. It is called La Bayamesa or more formally, El Himno de Bayamo (The Anthem of Bayamo).



El Himno de Bayamo, Espanol
¡Al combate, corred, Bayameses!,
Que la patria os contempla orgullosa;
No temáis una muerte gloriosa,
Que morir por la patria es vivir.

En cadenas vivir es vivir
en afrenta y oprobio sumido,
Del clarín escuchad el sonido;
¡A las armas, valientes, corred!




The Anthem of Bayamo
Hasten to battle, men of Bayamo!
The motherland looks proudly to you;
Do not fear a glorious death,
Because to die for the motherland is to live.

To live in chains is to live,
In dishonour and ignominy,
Hear the call of the bugle;
Hasten, brave ones, to arms!


I understand that the words are nationalistic. While I'm not a nationalist, I can understand how standing up for your emancipation as a nation against the force of tyranny can be a force for liberation.

[KurtFF8]

I live in Miami

Well that explains what you're hearing. Miami has a very strong history of anti-Communism because the former ruling class of Cuba pretty much "set up shop" in Miami after the revolution. The political climate in Miami has been significantly anti-Communist ever since, although it has begun to moderate in recent years.

I am a Communist, but I don't know how to refute these stories.[/quote]

Go to Cuba yourself, learn from Cubans who aren't anti-Communist. Read more about Cuba.


Being a communist doesn't mean you should support opressive states like Cuba.Cuba doesn't have anything to do with communism as I am sure a lot of people on this forum agree.

If you're a Communist and you oppose Cuba, you are quite confused in my opinion.


It's funny to hear people complain about how Cuba has some poor housing while living in a country like the U.S. where thousands upon thousands don't even have a home to complain about it being shitty. Especially considering we're the richest country on Earth. What's that saying about a plank in your eye?

Exactly, and you don't have to look further than Miami itself to see that kind of poverty and homelessness.

This documentary is a few years old now but the point I think stands:

Q5Yn_u1V-D4