Are bars/pubs parasites on the working class?

[MarxSchmarx]

Of course not just classic wateringholes, but any number of venues incl. places like starbucks that profit off of the anxieties or dissatisfaction of working people.

[tallguy]

Of course not just classic wateringholes, but any number of venues incl. places like starbucks that profit off of the anxieties or dissatisfaction of working people.
What?

fuck me

:lol:

This place

[Jimmie Higgins]

I wouldn't really put it that way. Rich people have fancy places to hang out, social clubs, eliete resturants, etc. Why not us?

IMO it's more that our free-time and public space have been comodified. So, for example, when I was in high school, there was no place young people could hang out except the mall and the only place at night were Denneys or coffee shops. Anywhere else (aside from someone's parent's home... and what 16 year old wants to stay there?) and the cops would come and tell you to move on.

Anyway, I'd rather live in a culture where people go hang out at a pub or even a coffee shop* than one where everyone has odd hours, multiple part-time jobs, and is too busy working to hang out so people just socialize on facebook/twitter while commuting or whatnot.



*there are few good neighborhood bars in California, IMO - driving-culture makes a pub culture hard... and most neighborhood working class bars have been replaced by obnoxious sports bars.

[tallguy]

We have a similar problem of small working class pubs being pushed out by big, national, soulless chains here in the UK. Largely to do with onerous regulations that means only those with an economy of scale can afford to stay afloat. Further excascerbated by insane real estate price that have grown off the back of all the funny money lent into existence over the last 2 or 3 decades.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Everytime I meet a middle aged communist or anarchist from the UK, they're like: "You had your meetings in a bookstore or church or community center? Fucking hell, that's shit innit. We always held our meetings at the pub!":lol:

[tallguy]

Everytime I meet a middle aged communist or anarchist from the UK, they're like: "You had your meetings in a bookstore or church or community center? Fucking hell, that's shit innit. We always held our meetings at the pub!":lol:
Exactly! The ban on cigs made things even worse. However, the e-cigs are taking off big time over here and a lot of pubs where I come from don't mind folks using them. Of course, the government is trying to get them banned cos they cant raise any tax off them.

Nice.

[Dagoth Ur]

So many American leftists can be downright puritanical about the working class. Booze and drugs can be great revolutionary elements or they can be a set of blinds that numb you to the world. Only a fool would leave such tools to our enemies. Plus how can you really celebrate the fraternity of workers and the solidarity between comrades without being toasted beyond sensible boundaries?

[Jimmie Higgins]

So many American leftists can be downright puritanical about the working class. Booze and drugs can be great revolutionary elements or they can be a set of blinds that numb you to the world. Only a fool would leave such tools to our enemies. Plus how can you really celebrate the fraternity of workers and the solidarity between comrades without being toasted beyond sensible boundaries?

I agree although I think there are sometimes practical considerations. I've had comrades who are ex-alcoholics and I've had pleanty of allies who are not 21 yet... so this makes meeting at a bar for general outreach purposes a little tricky in the US. Also before I was a revolutionary and was just getting into politics, a friend of mine was arrested at a protest and had some drugs on him at the time (he forgot it was in his jacket). So some common sense and a little bit of practical security are important.

But yeah, I want socialism in part just so we all have more free-time and enjoyment. Capitalism really gets in the way of my recreational substances.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

FREE WEED IN THE PARK.

Only acceptably revolutionary gathering.

[Quail]

I wouldn't really put it that way. Rich people have fancy places to hang out, social clubs, eliete resturants, etc. Why not us?

IMO it's more that our free-time and public space have been comodified. So, for example, when I was in high school, there was no place young people could hang out except the mall and the only place at night were Denneys or coffee shops. Anywhere else (aside from someone's parent's home... and what 16 year old wants to stay there?) and the cops would come and tell you to move on.

Anyway, I'd rather live in a culture where people go hang out at a pub or even a coffee shop* than one where everyone has odd hours, multiple part-time jobs, and is too busy working to hang out so people just socialize on facebook/twitter while commuting or whatnot.



*there are few good neighborhood bars in California, IMO - driving-culture makes a pub culture hard... and most neighborhood working class bars have been replaced by obnoxious sports bars.
I think the bolded bit really hits the nail on the head. It would be nice if there were places for young people to just go and play pool or whatever. When I was old enough to pass as 18 I just hung out in pubs with my friends because there was literally nowhere else to go, apart from wandering around on the street, but people don't seem to like groups of teenagers hanging out in the street.


Everytime I meet a middle aged communist or anarchist from the UK, they're like: "You had your meetings in a bookstore or church or community center? Fucking hell, that's shit innit. We always held our meetings at the pub!":lol:

Yeah... I had to change where Sheffield AFed held meetings to accomodate my bringing a baby/child. Pubs are great if everyone is over 18 with no kids but otherwise it's not ideal.

[Redistribute the Rep]

My history teacher said part of the reason the KKK supported the prohibition of alcohol was because immigrants would get together and form communities at bars and stuff. So no, I think they are good places for the working class to meet and organize.

[Queen Mab]

The pub was the embryo of working class politics. So not really.

[Os Cangaceiros]

My history teacher said part of the reason the KKK supported the prohibition of alcohol was because immigrants would get together and form communities at bars and stuff. So no, I think they are good places for the working class to meet and organize.

Prohibition was supported by wide swathes of society, from the KKK to the NAACP, from the IWW to the bosses.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Eh...I've slowly been dragging myself out of the "puritanical" state of mind but the sociologist in me thinks there's something to this.

There's nothing wrong with going to a bar or coffee shop or wherever and having a couple of cups.

That said, do I personally feel a nagging, "lifestylist" guilt somewhere in my mind when I'm letting loose? Sure. That's not something I could impose on others even if I tried, though.

Also I suppose you could make some kind of comparison between those who sell alcohol for profit and the parasitic scumfucks of cigarette companies.

Aside from that, if I'm tempted to agree it's just the grumpy social misfit in me. I think there's a certain degree of social interaction in all these places that's awkward if you're one of those hyperaware, driven types who's never "off" in terms of realizing how differently you probably perceive the world than most of the people you'll see.

Also, that Starbucks stuff is good, but pricey. From what I've seen, if you're a worker, it's usually all about Tim Hortons here. :P

[Jimmie Higgins]

My history teacher said part of the reason the KKK supported the prohibition of alcohol was because immigrants would get together and form communities at bars and stuff. So no, I think they are good places for the working class to meet and organize.

I'm not familiar with this specifically, but in general, yeah pre-prohibition alcohol restriction was often directed at specific groups of laborers. In some places in the US midwest I think German or "Dutch" immigrants were specifically banned from drinking alcohol. And even more generally, the idea that the masses have to be managed (which is practical for the ruling class for a number of obvious reasons, but also always supported by the middle class who by default tend to see unskilled workers as a threat in need of social control) has been tied to scares about alcohol and drugs. People probably know, but a lot of pre-Drug war anti-drug propaganda was basically arguments about unruly undesireable groups (of laborers) and that it would cause immigrants or blacks or beatniks to rape middle class daughters. So a KKK connection makes sense since "protecting white women's honor" was also their excuse in that era.

[Luís Henrique]

As the great British socialist O. Wilde remarkably puts it,


Work is the curse of the drinking classes.

Luís Henrique

[Futility Personified]

Tricky one. There are pubs that do BOGOF before 1pm so as to get the alcoholics in there early and guarantee a stream of revenue all day. You always hear that drug dealers do that to ensure a clientele, that this is legal (or some people are pretty ballsy being that blatant) is exploitative and should be condemned.

Really, it's down to the fact that someone owns these buildings and is legally responsible for what occurs within. We all need places to gather and unwind, that we choose these places is largely because strangers will go there so we can meet new people, that they are licensed to play loud music late and they are places where you can get intoxicated. I guess you could call the owners parasites in the sense that most owners of what should be socialized property are parasites.

A venue is just a place for people to be. If all these places were socialised, would this question still stand?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

people don't seem to like groups of teenagers hanging out in the street.


Especially in London, and after the riots, there's a lot of invective about 'youths' and 'groups of youths', even when it's something as innocent as a group of teenage kids hanging around after school. The result is that kids are discouraged from 'hanging around', even in the local park, or just having a drink outside their school's local shop.

I wonder, have there been any attempts to actually engage with communities on this? I don't mean in a patronising, Labour MP + leaflets + adults in a debate sort of thing, but people - kids, students etc. - trying to turn this scenario on its head and show that kids are fundamentally good, willing and creative bodies who, given somewhere to properly express themselves, will flourish. As opposed to, as you say, being chased off by the cops.

[tallguy]

I wouldn't frequent a "Starbucks" et al, if I was paid to. Quite apart from the piss take that is the price of the coffee, it's the manufactured chumminess of the staff that does my head in. I'm not having a go at them, poor bastards. They are probably indoctrinated into a certain style of Yankee-fied service when they join. It's just doesn't sit well with my cynical, grumpy Northern English cultural sensibilities, though. I like my retails assistants to have a bit of bad attitude. I know I would.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I wouldn't frequent a "Starbucks" et al, if I was paid to. Quite apart from the piss take that is the price of the coffee, it's the manufactured chumminess of the staff that does my head in. I'm not having a go at them, poor bastards. They are probably indoctrinated into a certain style of Yankee-fied service when they join. It's just doesn't sit well with my cynical, grumpy Northern English cultural sensibilities, though. I like my retails assistants to have a bit of bad attitude. I know I would.

I agree, especially when that "chumminess" has a flirty edge to it. It just feels so awkward, and I hate the idea that women are expected to be that way in retail positions.

[Lily Briscoe]

I wouldn't frequent a "Starbucks" et al, if I was paid to. Quite apart from the piss take that is the price of the coffee, it's the manufactured chumminess of the staff that does my head in. I'm not having a go at them, poor bastards. They are probably indoctrinated into a certain style of Yankee-fied service when they join. It's just doesn't sit well with my cynical, grumpy Northern English cultural sensibilities, though. I like my retails assistants to have a bit of bad attitude. I know I would.

"Chumminess"? :confused: You should go to a Starbucks in Seattle some time...

The coffee definitely sucks, though, no doubt about that.

[Comrade Jacob]

Marx used to get smashed with Engels.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Marx used to get smashed with Engels.

There's a great story somewhere about them going on an epic bar crawl and somewhere along the crawl between pubs in the streets Marx documenting the great amount of damage they were doing.

I can't remember where the story is though, can anybody help out?

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

There's a great story somewhere about them going on an epic bar crawl and somewhere along the crawl between pubs in the streets Marx documenting the great amount of damage they were doing.

I can't remember where the story is though, can anybody help out?

I don't remember the source, but I DO remember that during that crawl they ended up busting about five or six street lights with bricks before the police started to pay any attention to them. Then they took off running down the street. :laugh:

[motion denied]

Oh please find the source, I need to read it.

[Queen Mab]

http://libcom.org/history/marx-piss-london-pub-crawl-karl-marx-late-1850s-wilhelm-liebknecht

[GiantMonkeyMan]

To be honest, I'm not so certain pubs are decent meeting places for political organising except in an informal manner. Not only do you exclude young people who might not be the legal age to drink and people with families who might need to bring a kid along, but there's enough connotations between alcohol and aggro-masculinity that it might make certain people feel uncomfortable. Drinking with comrades is fine but it's also important to include people who don't/can't drink as well.

Pubs in general come in two shades. There's this pub that I frequent that all the anti-EDL demos are general organised within, there's also a pub that a comrade of mine is a manager/co-operative owner that gives space for local community organising and stuff and pays the living wage and sells only worker-friendly beers. In comparison, you've got the Wetherspoons-type pub that seem to sap the soul of the community wherever they set root.

[motion denied]

http://libcom.org/history/marx-piss-london-pub-crawl-karl-marx-late-1850s-wilhelm-liebknecht

That's awesome.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

^^So good.

Also, I still can't get behind the premise of this question. I don't think everyone has to 'like' going to the pub, i'm not that much of a workerist, but there is such a detachment behind the thought process that leads to the asking of such a question.

It naturally leads to a solution which is inherently dictatorial and culturally fascist.

[Dagoth Ur]

It should be noted that you don't have to drink just because you're in a bar. A bar is a social zone that people already go to. We aim to seize energy not create a new energy from scratch.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It should be noted that you don't have to drink just because you're in a bar. A bar is a social zone that people already go to. We aim to seize energy not create a new energy from scratch.

Drunks are absolutely intolerable to be around if you're not also drunk, in my opinion.

That's not to say that bars are populated exclusively by drunks, of course, but you'll find your fair share in 'em. I find it very hard to be in a bar and not drink.

[Dagoth Ur]

You're not there for the drunks. If you had a purpose, as in a meeting, you'd be easily distracted.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I can think of a lot better places to hold a meeting than at a bar. If by "meeting" you mean a fundraiser or public event, then yeah, a bar is probably a pretty good place.