Let's have a Leftist Pro-Gun Rally -- Northeast Florida

[Loony Le Fist]

Is there anyone here in northeast Florida or southern Georgia that would like to get together and have a leftist pro-gun rally? I think it would be great for awareness and media attention. And I would love to see the hypocrisy of the right here in the US. Keep in mind, I'm against the NRA and the violence culture. I'm just an advocate of worker's self-defense. Since open carry is illegal in Florida, I suggest airsoft guns. :grin:

[Comrade Jacob]

I would be surprised if the police don't shoot at you.

[Loony Le Fist]

I would be surprised if the police don't shoot at you.

Possibly. Better bring the smartphones and the body armor. :grin:

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

With due respect, I would be surprised if the police don't piss themselves laughing. I mean, it's not that I'm opposed to the democratic right to bear arms, far from it, but airsoft guns are one step away from dressing like someone from Red Alert.

Now, to make a constructive comment, what slogans and demands would be raised at the rally? I think it doesn't make much sense to invite people to a "pro-gun" rally without specifying things like that.

[motion denied]

With due respect, I would be surprised if the police don't piss themselves laughing. I mean, it's not that I'm opposed to the democratic right to bear arms, far from it, but airsoft guns are one step away from dressing like someone from Red Alert.


I'm imagining it... lol

[Hrafn]

I'm going to completely disregard the gun-angle, and say that "rallies" are utterly pointless without an ongoing, local struggle/movement.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

I think the point of having the rally is not necessarily to even send much of a message other than "hey, leftists are NOT liberals. Stop associating us with liberals, just because we are pro gun rights does not mean we are conservative."

I think that message is honestly good enough with so much fucking ignorance in this country. I'm sick of being called a liberal. I'm sick of being associated with conservatives too when I mention I am against gun control. So I think that's more of the point, since pro gun rallies are always held by conservatives. People would be like, "they're leftists wtf asdjgasjhdgjahsd"

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I think the point of having the rally is not necessarily to even send much of a message other than "hey, leftists are NOT liberals. Stop associating us with liberals, just because we are pro gun rights does not mean we are conservative."

I think that message is honestly good enough with so much fucking ignorance in this country. I'm sick of being called a liberal. I'm sick of being associated with conservatives too when I mention I am against gun control. So I think that's more of the point, since pro gun rallies are always held by conservatives. People would be like, "they're leftists wtf asdjgasjhdgjahsd"

But that sounds like a publicity stunt rather than a political rally - usually political rallies are organised in opposition to some aspect of bourgeois society or in support for some form of workers' struggle, and the parties involved raise definite demands. I.e. you don't go to a pro-abortion rally with a sign that says "leftists are alright with abortion", you go with a sign saying "Defend abortion! Free abortion on demand! *". So you need to find something concrete to base your slogans around - e.g. new attacks on the right to bear arms etc.

* "Spartacist/ICL"

[Loony Le Fist]

With due respect, I would be surprised if the police don't piss themselves laughing. I mean, it's not that I'm opposed to the democratic right to bear arms, far from it, but airsoft guns are one step away from dressing like someone from Red Alert.

That was more meant as a joke about open carry laws in Florida. Hence the smiley face. :grin:

[Loony Le Fist]

But that sounds like a publicity stunt rather than a political rally -

And what is wrong with getting publicity for the left? Anything is better than the vacuum of representation in the public sphere we have now.

[Loony Le Fist]

I'm going to completely disregard the gun-angle, and say that "rallies" are utterly pointless without an ongoing, local struggle/movement.

And how do you mobilize an ongoing, local struggle/movement without some kind of publicity? That is the whole point.

[Thirsty Crow]

Now, to make a constructive comment, what slogans and demands would be raised at the rally? I think it doesn't make much sense to invite people to a "pro-gun" rally without specifying things like that.
I don't think that it even makes sense to entertain the idea of a pro-gun rally with explicitly pro-working class platform (workers' self-defense) when it's really not the case that fascist gangs are on the verge of terrorizing militant workers and smashing their orgs (this is obviously an oversimplification; but the point I think stands, about the absence of any conditions making that idea either useful or coherent).

A better question than that of slogans would be, how does the working class in the region relate to gun rights? As part of the overall and specifically American populism concerning the myth of rugged individualism (whereby isolated individuals out in the frontier obviously need to rely on themselves and their gun), the criminality scare (one aspect that actually does try to relate this to present day conditions; and one that is most blatantly a part of the ruling class ideology no less), and possibly vigilantism targeting "illegals", connected to the militia ideology? Or is it that the self-defense of the class is the foremost framework through which this problem is hashed out?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

And what is wrong with getting publicity for the left? Anything is better than the vacuum of representation in the public sphere we have now.

It's bad politics - you're using the resources that could go into principled political activity, particularly organising the workers and minorities, to get noticed by the bourgeois media. But the revolution won't be brought on by media exposure, but class-conscious workers forged into a revolutionary party. I think the "gun angle" is fine - but don't just stand there begging for attention from the media. Make explicit the connection to the oppression of blacks, for example, to the recent Alexander case, raise principled, communist slogans, and if that is noticed by the local workers, that's better than a weak, reformist slogan, or simply publicity stunt, being noticed by the media.

[Loony Le Fist]

...
Now, to make a constructive comment, what slogans and demands would be raised at the rally? I think it doesn't make much sense to invite people to a "pro-gun" rally without specifying things like that.

That is exactly what this thread is about, o smug one. :laugh:

As far as I'm concerned the slogans are basically: workplace democracy, worker ownership and the right to bear arms. If you have any suggestions, I welcome them.

[Loony Le Fist]

It's bad politics - you're using the resources that could go into principled political activity, particularly organising the workers and minorities, to get noticed by the bourgeois media. But the revolution won't be brought on by media exposure, but class-conscious workers forged into a revolutionary party. I think the "gun angle" is fine - but don't just stand there begging for attention from the media.


Again, attention must be there first. People have to be aware that there is a movement to begin with. One of the purposes would be to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the right when it comes to gun rights. I have pointed out others in previous posts. It would be to undermine the idea that the right actually cares about gun-rights for workers. To demonstrate the NRA is on the side of gun manufacturers, not advocates of self-defense.



Make explicit the connection to the oppression of blacks, for example, to the recent Alexander case, raise principled, communist slogans, and if that is noticed by the local workers, that's better than a weak, reformist slogan, or simply publicity stunt, being noticed by the media.

Good, a suggestion. Ty for the input. That is what this thread is supposed to be about.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Again, attention must be there first. People have to be aware that there is a movement to begin with.

And when you say people, you mean workers i'm presuming? But if your movement or issue is rooted in working class communities, then said workers (i.e. 'people') will already be aware that there is a movement.

If you have to rely on the bourgeois media to tell the working class that there is some movement that they should be interested in (oh the parochialism of it all!), then that tells me a great deal about the divorce of said movement from

[Loony Le Fist]

And when you say people, you mean workers i'm presuming? But if your movement or issue is rooted in working class communities, then said workers (i.e. 'people') will already be aware that there is a movement.


That's a good point. But things have to start somewhere. I just don't know where else to go but here, and my local occupy group. Do you have any suggestions for building mass movements?



If you have to rely on the bourgeois media to tell the working class that there is some movement that they should be interested in (oh the parochialism of it all!), then that tells me a great deal about the divorce of said movement from

Well, I'm starting out here. But the media attention is just to bring awareness to all that there is an opposition of some kind. Frankly, it's frustrating that there is no opposition even being discussed at all.

[Ele'ill]

"Breaking news: this year at the 2015 Anarchist Gun-Fair, everyone shot to death by everyone else! All 50 people completely killed after a dispute about a word usage in that one zine with hand drawings of people with backpacks and pretty words escalated."

[Althusser]

Conservative and leftist "pro-gun" sentiment are qualitatively different things, and are treated as such by the state. While an NRA gun rally promotes the bourgeois individualist right to own a gun for the sake of owning a gun (protecting yourself, hunting, etc.), a leftist rally for the proliferation of firearms among the masses would be met with great hostility because its purpose would be the acquisition of state power through violent means.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

That's a good point. But things have to start somewhere. I just don't know where else to go but here, and my local occupy group. Do you have any suggestions for building mass movements?

It depends. I would normally think that a mass movement is comprised of lots of little communities. For example, in London, a mass workers' movement (for example, towards a general strike), would comprise people from the black communities, from sectors of the student community, from the trades unions, from sections of the unemployed and from the growing groupings of feminist workers (which would probably arise from student communities on campuses at the University of London, for example). Add in to this some already organised concious political groupings such as remnants of occupy, some local protest groups (all the anti-austerity groups such as Left Unity, Coalition of Resistance), and you'd have a large cross-section of the working class.

But if you're looking to talk about a single issue such as gun control, then i'd suggest your aim of building a mass workers' movement is premature. You may want to target a community that you are in, be it school, a campus, or a social centre that you're involved in, and start a conversation about it there. If you're at school, start a discussion there (naturally being very careful and considered about it, given that reckless talk about guns at schools can have pretty awful un-intended consequences a la Columbine), and try to hook up with other schools, local colleges etc.

That's what we did when it came to protesting tuition fee rises here, and with hindsight what we should have done when we started out with the no more page 3 campaign. We lost the vote on the NMP3 vote, yet you can see now as the campaign has grown and cross-university interaction and support has grown, more and more universities have started to vote positively in favour of the campaign.


Well, I'm starting out here. But the media attention is just to bring awareness to all that there is an opposition of some kind. Frankly, it's frustrating that there is no opposition even being discussed at all.

I'm afraid that although i've given you advice above, I don't really support there being a pro-gun workers' grouping. It would be best if nobody had guns. I think the consequences of workers with small arms trying to take on a properly armed, efficient army of the bourgeoisie would be tragic. For me it's a terrible idea to introduce more arms into the world. When the working class truly rebels in numbers that include their ranks in the army, the bourgeoisie will have no choice but to surrender, or at least won't be able to utilise the workers in the army any more, saving much bloodshed and avoiding some sort of civil war.

[Hrafn]

And how do you mobilize an ongoing, local struggle/movement without some kind of publicity? That is the whole point.

Movements aren't created. They arise out of actual conflict.

[jake williams]

Jokes aside, I listen to a lot of Alex Jones (I find it entertaining, but occasionally meaningfully informative). Realistically if you did this, the police probably wouldn't just shoot you, but the right wing pro-gun movement wouldn't support you (unless you put forward a vague enough message that they could claim that it was part of their own movement for "freedom", which they actually do a lot, in the same way that some liberals have tried to co-opt sentiments expressed by the Tea Party for being "anti-establishment"). They'd probably argue that you'd been cooked up by the federal government/George Soros, as a hypocritical and/or false flag operation to confuse the people and/or initiate the armed struggle.

Like, if you staged an "anarchist gun rally", Alex Jones would say that he's on your side in standing up to the federal government. If you staged a "communist gun rally" he would say that Obama has initiated the mobilization of paramilitary forces against the American people. Unless some wingnut showed up and started shooting at people, probably nothing would happen; but it's not obvious whom you would be able to communicate a message to, or what message.

[tachosomoza]

I suggest airsoft guns. :grin:

This sounds like something you'd do to satisfy your lifestylist fetish for guns without making any actual political statement.

[Lily Briscoe]

Probably the only thing in this thread more hilarious than the notion that the police would open fire on a handful of leftists for trying to organize a "pro-gun rally", is the idea that 'defending gun rights' is something the working class and the left need to mobilize around in a place with comparatively very lax gun laws and a deeply reactionary gun culture, where the politics around this stuff serves to highlight and reinforce all of the divisions among workers.

Also funny how most of the left here doesn't seem to feel the same urgent need to differentiate themselves from liberals when it comes to things like elections and legislative reform campaigns. On the contrary, they seem to take a very proactive approach to blurring that line.

But yeah,

No to the KKKapitali$t Government Takin Our Gun Collections!

Defend the Workers' Democratic Right to Tote AKs in Public!

We Promise We're Not Pussies Like Liberals--See, We're Pro-Gun!

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

But that sounds like a publicity stunt rather than a political rally - usually political rallies are organised in opposition to some aspect of bourgeois society or in support for some form of workers' struggle, and the parties involved raise definite demands. I.e. you don't go to a pro-abortion rally with a sign that says "leftists are alright with abortion", you go with a sign saying "Defend abortion! Free abortion on demand! *". So you need to find something concrete to base your slogans around - e.g. new attacks on the right to bear arms etc.

* "Spartacist/ICL"

If I may make a half serious half sarcastic suggestion, perhaps the appropriate would be "Defend the Right to bear Arms, Free Guns On Demand!!"

It wouldn't be the worst demand the left ever made

[Loony Le Fist]

This sounds like something you'd do to satisfy your lifestylist fetish for guns without making any actual political statement.

Joke brah. Hence the smiley. ---> :grin: <---

[Skyhilist]

Keep in mind, I'm against the NRA and the violence culture.

If you do hold a rally, I hope that this is emphasized. Arguably a lot of gun-related deaths and violence stem from the fetishism of weapons not just by the NRA but by American culture in general. It seems it'd be very easy for a "pro-gun" rally to very quickly turn to fetishizing weapons even if that wasn't the intent. During any revolution workers will need to take arms to protect themselves, but it's essential that that isn't misconstrued as "yeah own as many fuckin' guns as you can and worship them every day, what things of beauty these fine weapons are" or something along those lines like what the NRA spews from a much more right-wing perspective.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Rather than a rally, it might make sense to organize anarchist/communist firearms safety workshops, women's feminist gun clubs, etc.

It seems to me that a rally is an occasion for putting one's organizing achievements on display - gotta do some organizing first.

Interestingly, RAAN used to do this sort of work.

Youth everywhere have been offered a choice between RAANISMO O MUERTE; everywhere they have chosen muerte.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

If I might ask who is RAAN? they are always referenced on here but don't pop up on google.

[BIXX]

If I might ask who is RAAN? they are always referenced on here but don't pop up on google.


I think it's the red and anarchist action network.

Edit: @sinister: I beat ya to it ;)

[Sinister Intents]

If I might ask who is RAAN? they are always referenced on here but don't pop up on google.

I believe RAAN stands for Red and Anarchist Action Network or something like that, I researched them in the beginning when I was getting into communism and I found them pretty good, but I don't remember a whole lot about them, I think they've a main site which I'll find shortly...
edit: Here is a blogspot page.... http://raanismo.blogspot.com/

[iPhone Communist]

I think the point of having the rally is not necessarily to even send much of a message other than "hey, leftists are NOT liberals. Stop associating us with liberals, just because we are pro gun rights does not mean we are conservative."

I think that message is honestly good enough with so much fucking ignorance in this country. I'm sick of being called a liberal. I'm sick of being associated with conservatives too when I mention I am against gun control. So I think that's more of the point, since pro gun rallies are always held by conservatives. People would be like, "they're leftists wtf asdjgasjhdgjahsd"
No, leftists aren't "liberal" either. While it is safe to say that most RevLeft users are culturally liberal, we are not economically liberal. Because (classic) liberalism entails laissez-faire economic policies, and the suppression of the state (for the good of big business).

[Luís Henrique]

A better question than that of slogans would be, how does the working class in the region relate to gun rights? As part of the overall and specifically American populism concerning the myth of rugged individualism (whereby isolated individuals out in the frontier obviously need to rely on themselves and their gun), the criminality scare (one aspect that actually does try to relate this to present day conditions; and one that is most blatantly a part of the ruling class ideology no less), and possibly vigilantism targeting "illegals", connected to the militia ideology? Or is it that the self-defense of the class is the foremost framework through which this problem is hashed out?

This.

I find it difficult to even entertain the idea of a pro-gun rally in the United States centered on the idea of working-class self defense, when the American working class doesn't know who are its enemies (and, frankly, seems to not even know itself, or even to realise there are classes in the US).

Call a pro-gun rally, and it will be a rally against immigration, against social insurance bums, against petty criminality, against blacks, latinos, gays, or some other silly scare popular among Americans. What it won't be, is a rally about taking arms against our bosses or employers, bankers, landlords, hucksters, the police or the army, or, in general, against any actual class enemy we might think of.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Youth everywhere have been offered a choice between RAANISMO O MUERTE; everywhere they have chosen muerte.

And, what is worse, it can't be decried as an unwise choice...

Luís Henrique

[Rosa Partizan]

so almost everyone here is pro-guns for self-defense purposes?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

A better question than that of slogans would be, how does the working class in the region relate to gun rights? As part of the overall and specifically American populism concerning the myth of rugged individualism (whereby isolated individuals out in the frontier obviously need to rely on themselves and their gun), the criminality scare (one aspect that actually does try to relate this to present day conditions; and one that is most blatantly a part of the ruling class ideology no less), and possibly vigilantism targeting "illegals", connected to the militia ideology? Or is it that the self-defense of the class is the foremost framework through which this problem is hashed out?


This.

I find it difficult to even entertain the idea of a pro-gun rally in the United States centered on the idea of working-class self defense, when the American working class doesn't know who are its enemies (and, frankly, seems to not even know itself, or even to realise there are classes in the US).

Call a pro-gun rally, and it will be a rally against immigration, against social insurance bums, against petty criminality, against blacks, latinos, gays, or some other silly scare popular among Americans. What it won't be, is a rally about taking arms against our bosses or employers, bankers, landlords, hucksters, the police or the army, or, in general, against any actual class enemy we might think of.

It doesn't need to be - I certainly don't think a lack of state oversight of small arms will make the insurrection more likely to happen, or to succeed. As I said, the right to bear arms is a bourgeois-democratic right that the present, degenerated bourgeoisie is forced to trample over in its attempt to maintain the social peace. In this respect, the right to bear arms is comparable to the right to full and secret participation in the ballot (for American blacks etc.)

Nonetheless, it is connected to the struggles of workers, and particularly of oppressed minorities. You are worried that a "pro-gun" (I think that is horribly vague, which is why I wanted to see some concrete slogans) rally would turn into a rally against black people etc. - but it won't if the organisers make an effort to include black workers, and raise slogans that attack the oppression the black communities undergo as the result of gun laws (searches and raids by the police, weapons being taken from black people stereotyped as "thugs" but remaining in the possession of racist vigilantes, black self-defence being attacked as gangsterism, thuggery etc.) Not every rally needs to be attended primarily by white people.

As for the supposed American gun culture, I think this is a terrible reason to oppose the right to bear arms. We could say similar things about e.g. gay marriage - that most people that support it (in America) are wishy-washy, pro-Obama, imperialist, "change we can believe in" liberals and their left tails, but this doesn't mean that things like adoption and visitation rights are unimportant.

[DOOM]

so almost everyone here is pro-guns for self-defense purposes?
Yeah, they pretty much believe that the bourgeoise government has no right to exclude the working class masses from their right of self-defense. I don't care about pistols and non-automatic weapons, but why the fuck would someone need a rifle in his house?
It's ridiculous in my eyes.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Yeah, they pretty much believe that the bourgeoise government has no right to exclude the working class masses from their right of self-defense.

It is a very strange socialist that thinks the bourgeoisie and their administrative committee, the government, has the right to take weapons away from the workers, surely.


I don't care about pistols and non-automatic weapons, but why the fuck would someone need a rifle in his house?
It's ridiculous in my eyes.

(1) Most rifles are not automatic; and
(2) why do people who keep rifles need to justify themselves to you?

[DOOM]

It is a very strange socialist that thinks the bourgeoisie and their administrative committee, the government, has the right to take weapons away from the workers, surely.


(1) Most rifles are not automatic; and
(2) why do people who keep rifles need to justify themselves to you?

As I said, I don't really care about it. It really doesn't bother me if someone wants to have guns, for whatever reason.
For the sake of definiton, I'm talking about full (or semi) automatic rifles like an M16 or other aussault rifles. I really don't see any reason to have one, besides showing off. It's a thing we europeans don't understand about you americans.
Uh where did I mention that one needs to justifiy himself to me? I just commented that it's nonsense, for me personally.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

For the sake of definiton, I'm talking about full (or semi) automatic rifles like an M16 or other aussault rifles. I really don't see any reason to have one, besides showing off. It's a thing we europeans don't understand about you americans.

Er, I live in Croatia. Unfortunately. Ostensibly, Croatia is in Europe and not in the Americas.


Uh where did I mention that one needs to justifiy himself to me? I just commented that it's nonsense, for me personally.

Well, you happened to mention it right in the middle of a political discussion concerning the right to bear arms, so it's only natural to assume you thought this has some sort of political relevance.

[DOOM]

Er, I live in Croatia. Unfortunately. Ostensibly, Croatia is in Europe and not in the Americas.



Oh, my fault, izvini :D



Well, you happened to mention it right in the middle of a political discussion concerning the right to bear arms, so it's only natural to assume you thought this has some sort of political relevance.

Yeah, but I really don't care. We here in switzerland have really 'advanced' gun rights, compared to the rest of Europe, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I just don't understand why someone would have an aussault rifle in his attic.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

For the sake of definiton, I'm talking about full (or semi) automatic rifles like an M16 or other aussault rifles. I really don't see any reason to have one, besides showing off. It's a thing we europeans don't understand about you americans.


from my perspective at least it often comes off as a sort of 'collector' type thing, like a lot of people (afaik) who own these really high-powered guns simply enjoy collecting or/and firing these weapons. It's not a cheap hobby by any means, as far as i understand guns aren't exactly cheap anyway and the more cartoonishly overpowered they are the more expensive they get. It's something I can understand, at least from the perspective of enjoying something well-made and (to some eyes) pleasing to look at and use.

[mindsword]

Id go there.

[mindsword]

I just don't understand why someone would have an aussault rifle in his attic.

You havent seen what we've seen............................

[MarcusJuniusBrutus]

I'd rather see a Black Panthers' gun rally. Lefties with guns = so what? Blacks with guns = urine-stained white robes.:lol: