Conspiracy theories

[RedScorpion97]

Not sure if this is a right place to post this question but, anyone here believe in conspiracy theories (like the one-world totalitarian govt, elitist families controlling the economy, etc.)? If so, do you think they're happening right now, and also, how come not many people are aware of them?

[Quail]

I don't think you'll find many people here into "conspiracy theories" - I would say that most people who believe in something like the illuminati have correctly identified that there is something wrong with the world, but then come to the incorrect conclusion that it's a "conspiracy" rather than capitalism is itself a fucked up system and that's what's really wrong with the world.

[Wonton Carter]

Nothing besides the really obvious almost non-theory rich folk rule indirectly.

When I was like 12, I thought the government was hiding aliens in Area 51, though.

[Rosso]

Just like Quail said. Just want to add a link (but I still can't :cursing: ). Search for 'overthrowing the illuminati' on google and click the first hit.

It is a pamphlet about the whole idiocracy of the illuminati-conspiracy.

[Sasha]

Here you go;
https://libcom.org/library/how-overthrow-illuminati
A very good and essential piece indeed.

[Red Economist]

Not sure if this is a right place to post this question but, anyone here believe in conspiracy theories (like the one-world totalitarian govt, elitist families controlling the economy, etc.)? If so, do you think they're happening right now, and also, how come not many people are aware of them?

it is almost certain that there are conspiracies happening right now. The most basic problem is that we won't know about it for sure, until either someone from the government admits the conspiracy exists, or unless your holding concrete evidence of conspiracy (i.e. Voice recording or papers etc.). usually, it's going to be both for it to stick in the public record.

it is therefore best just to 'let it go' as conspiracies are just part of the structure of the ruling class and in practice, we can do very little about it- [unless, for example, it is something low-level and so illegal that media exposure can get authorities higher up to do something about it.]

[Sinister Intents]

Nothing besides the really obvious almost non-theory rich folk rule indirectly.

When I was like 12, I thought the government was hiding aliens in Area 51, though.

Who didn't believe that when they were 12? I sure did, and I completely agree with Quail. I used to believe in several conspiracy theories years ago, and I belive there is truth to some of them, like with the 9/11 conspiracy theories, I see it as a false flag attack, I'd probaly make a better post if I wasn't so stoned

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

i've usually gone by Alan Moore's words:

'Yes, there is a conspiracy, indeed there are a great number of conspiracies, all tripping each other up… the main thing that I learned about conspiracy theories is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy, or the grey aliens, or the twelve-foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control, the truth is far more frightening; no-one is in control, the world is rudderless.'

[Loony Le Fist]

Not sure if this is a right place to post this question but, anyone here believe in conspiracy theories (like the one-world totalitarian govt, elitist families controlling the economy, etc.)? If so, do you think they're happening right now, and also, how come not many people are aware of them?

I would say the closest thing to a conspiracy theory that I subscribe to is that I have a gut feeling (though I admit there is no strong evidence for this) that the US government was aware that both Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were going to happen and did nothing to stop them in order to get the masses in the US to support large scale military responses.

I think people in the US are more anti-war than they are given credit for. It takes dead Americans to motivate them to commit troops to be put in harms way. Of course, having a volunteer army makes this a lot less of an issue, so I think in many cases this isn't true. Take for instance with Reagan in South America.


...I would say that most people who believe in something like the illuminati have correctly identified that there is something wrong with the world, but then come to the incorrect conclusion that it's a "conspiracy" rather than capitalism...

I think that's the money quote right there, Quail. That pretty much sums up nearly all that Bilderberg, Illuminati, and 9/11 inside job stuff.

[willwinall]

If it`s not taught in schools or if the government doesn`t say it`s true then it is not true. That`s how things more or less work.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I think the main issue with most contemporary conspiracy theories - in a very general and crude way - is that in their assumptions and form they tend to be counter to building class consiousness.

Usually they imply that most people are passive sheep, aside from the select few enlightened who know the truth. The emphasize mass powerlessness in the face of shaddowy manipulators, not class empowerment and self-organization and militancy.

This is why they tend to work better for right wingers and demagauges generally: listen to me and do what I say, I'm the only one who knows the depths of the conspiracy!!!

[Kill all the fetuses!]

I would say the closest thing to a conspiracy theory that I subscribe to is that I have a gut feeling (though I admit there is no strong evidence for this) that the US government was aware that both Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were going to happen and did nothing to stop them in order to get the masses in the US to support large scale military responses.

I always thought was was sort of established to be true? Just recently I recall watching a talk by Howard Zinn where he cited some evidence that something like this was true.

[Slavic]

Not sure if this is considered a conspiray, but I may or may not know of a secret weapons program at us airbases. Its SAP and hidden from most other military personneland is black budgeted. I am going to assume that there are other programs besides this.

[AmilcarCabral]

The most powerful conspiracies I see in America is the conspiracy of denial and the conspiracy of silence in most american people, these 2 conspiracies are the main cause of why the communist parties of USA are so weak and why most americans keep voting for the democratic party and the republican party in every elections !!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder#Signs_and_symptoms

Hell man *conspiracy of denial* and conspiracy of silence*, that's one of the worst things I hate about the whole United States, that the USA is almost at the edge of an economic apocalypse, in the middle of an inflationary meltdown, the country is going down. The roads, highways interstate highways are full of cracks and holes, bridges are falling. The Obamacare is a capitalist neoliberalism, fascist scam, Republicans are hissing and motivating the White House and US government into invading Venezuela and Russia. Food and gas prices are going up every day, and yet most people in America we see every day at supermarkets, at banks and in public places are totally silent, mute, and living in a conspiracy of silence and in a conspiracy of denial. What a weird nation with avoidant personality disorders.

From my own point of view, the most powerful conspiracy I see in America is the conspiracy of denial and the conspiracy of silence by every single US citizen. I think all americans suffer from avoidant personality disorders (The mental disorder that promotes and forces all americans into living in a permanent mental state of conspiracy of denying the USA reality and in a conspiracy of negating the USA reality:

Here is a short definition and signs of the avoidant personality disorder, a disorder suffered by most americans which leads them to live in a conspiracy of denial and in a conspiracy of being silent all the time (even in the middle of the worst economic and social crisis):

People with avoidant personality disorder are preoccupied with their own shortcomings and form relationships with others only if they believe they will not be rejected. Loss and rejection are so painful that these individuals will choose to be lonely rather than risk trying to connect with others. They often view themselves with contempt, while showing an increased inability to identify traits within themselves which are generally considered as positive within their societies. Childhood emotional neglect—in particular, the rejection of a child by one or both parents—has been associated with an increased risk for the development of AvPD, as well as rejection by peers.

Hypersensitivity to rejection/criticism

Self-imposed social isolation

Extreme shyness or anxiety in social situations, though the person feels a strong desire for close relationships

Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus

Feelings of inadequacy

Severe low self-esteem

Self-loathing

Mistrust of others

Emotional distancing related to intimacy

Highly self-conscious

Self-critical about their problems relating to others

Problems in occupational functioning

Lonely self-perception, although others may find the relationship with them meaningful

Feeling inferior to others

In some extreme cases, agoraphobia (Americans hate open spaces, and love hiding in their SUVs, and caves (houses)

Uses fantasy as a form of escapism and to interrupt painful thoughts


.






Not sure if this is a right place to post this question but, anyone here believe in conspiracy theories (like the one-world totalitarian govt, elitist families controlling the economy, etc.)? If so, do you think they're happening right now, and also, how come not many people are aware of them?

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

^ there's no mystery that many diagnosable psychological 'defects' are a result of the socioeconomic order; the ideological state apparatus which keeps people not just in a state of denial but also passive and functional within their socioeconomic position.

althusser said it (ideological state apparatus), foucault's main body of work was built around this idea (madness and civilization), chomsky said it less eloquently (manufacturing consent), marx was one of the first to hypothesize it (alienation). there are a wealth of other valuable texts and studies on the matter.

my main criticism of what you said would be that you didn't point out that the kind of personality disorders found in the DSM criteria are actually discourses that are a part of the ideological state apparatus itself and are as much about controlling people as cops and cameras are.

the psychology of individuals is largely socially symptomatic - there have been hugely profitable industries that have been built around containing these people in some way, or at least strategically marginalizing them (if they can't function as labourers, put them on welfare or in psychiatric wards, feed them copious drugs which make pharm companies a lot of money, for example).

on the original point, there is no conspiracy. perhaps certain strategies and organizational groups/methodologies are largely hidden (wealthy international people of influence meeting up at certain events to chat business, get drunk and play stupid old rituals), but the social processes behind capitalism and its hugely negative social symptoms are as clear as day after even a simple objective analysis. sometimes it is easier to construct a narrative so 'out-there' that it perhaps allows people to escape from reality/deny it, even though the right answer is in many cases the most obvious one - there are no trick-questions when it comes to the capitalist social order, its right there in front of us (or over/around us).

here's a conspiracy for conspiracy types to have a think on: perhaps conspiracy theories were constructed by right-wing polemicists and political strategists to distract working people from their immediate conditions? oh, and they all had green, scaly skin as well.

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

The most powerful conspiracies I see in America is the conspiracy of denial and the conspiracy of silence in most american people, these 2 conspiracies are the main cause of why the communist parties of USA are so weak and why most americans keep voting for the democratic party and the republican party in every elections !!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder#Signs_and_symptoms

Hell man *conspiracy of denial* and conspiracy of silence*, that's one of the worst things I hate about the whole United States, that the USA is almost at the edge of an economic apocalypse, in the middle of an inflationary meltdown, the country is going down. The roads, highways interstate highways are full of cracks and holes, bridges are falling. The Obamacare is a capitalist neoliberalism, fascist scam, Republicans are hissing and motivating the White House and US government into invading Venezuela and Russia. Food and gas prices are going up every day, and yet most people in America we see every day at supermarkets, at banks and in public places are totally silent, mute, and living in a conspiracy of silence and in a conspiracy of denial. What a weird nation with avoidant personality disorders.

From my own point of view, the most powerful conspiracy I see in America is the conspiracy of denial and the conspiracy of silence by every single US citizen. I think all americans suffer from avoidant personality disorders (The mental disorder that promotes and forces all americans into living in a permanent mental state of conspiracy of denying the USA reality and in a conspiracy of negating the USA reality:

Here is a short definition and signs of the avoidant personality disorder, a disorder suffered by most americans which leads them to live in a conspiracy of denial and in a conspiracy of being silent all the time (even in the middle of the worst economic and social crisis):

People with avoidant personality disorder are preoccupied with their own shortcomings and form relationships with others only if they believe they will not be rejected. Loss and rejection are so painful that these individuals will choose to be lonely rather than risk trying to connect with others. They often view themselves with contempt, while showing an increased inability to identify traits within themselves which are generally considered as positive within their societies. Childhood emotional neglect—in particular, the rejection of a child by one or both parents—has been associated with an increased risk for the development of AvPD, as well as rejection by peers.

Hypersensitivity to rejection/criticism

Self-imposed social isolation

Extreme shyness or anxiety in social situations, though the person feels a strong desire for close relationships

Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus

Feelings of inadequacy

Severe low self-esteem

Self-loathing

Mistrust of others

Emotional distancing related to intimacy

Highly self-conscious

Self-critical about their problems relating to others

Problems in occupational functioning

Lonely self-perception, although others may find the relationship with them meaningful

Feeling inferior to others

In some extreme cases, agoraphobia (Americans hate open spaces, and love hiding in their SUVs, and caves (houses)

Uses fantasy as a form of escapism and to interrupt painful thoughts


.


Dude, as someone who has AvPD (although that very phrase is contentious) and has extensively researched personality disorders, I can tell you that they cannot be extended to entire populations. It is very dangerous to individuals who legitimately suffer with these kinds of problems to generalise them so. I could go on and on explaining it but I haven't the time or energy, and you haven't the experience to fully comprehend.

Please don't do it.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Dude, as someone who has AvPD (although that very phrase is contentious) and has extensively researched personality disorders, I can tell you that they cannot be extended to entire populations. It is very dangerous to individuals who legitimately suffer with these kinds of problems to generalise them so. I could go on and on explaining it but I haven't the time or energy, and you haven't the experience to fully comprehend.

Please don't do it.
he does have a point about the socio-economic elements behind certain disorders, but he just worded it wrongly.

i say this as bipolar with narcissistic personality disorder.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Proven conspiracies:

MKULTRA, Project Mockingbird, Project Midnight Climax, Iran/Contra, Operation Paperclip, Tuskegee Syphilis study, hundreds of plots to install right wing governments (Chile, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Iran, Cuba)… The list goes on.

Bullshit theories that are completely false:

The Illuminati, Jewish stuff, everything right wing libertarian extremists say, lizard people, moon landing fake, etc…

Here's the thing. Nobody knows what the fuck goes on in the government. They participate in conspiracies every single day. Why is that even shocking to people? Just don't believe in insane stupid shit and you'll be ok.

[synthesis]

One thing I've been thinking about recently is that people debating with conspiracy theorists have a little catch-22 that might be a little unfair, even if the whole theory is bullshit.

Basically, people will say something to the effect of, "This conspiracy would have to involve so many people that it's inevitable that mistakes would be made that would expose it." When such supposed "mistakes" are pointed out by the conspiracist, they are told, "Sure, a huge global conspiracy is just going to spill the beans on its own project."

Not that this has any bearing on whether or not the Illuminatus conspiracy theorist is correct or not - they aren't - but it's something I've noticed as a tendency in these discussions. You should challenge the conspiracist's assumptions, not respond with further assumptions.

[Slavic]

One thing I've been thinking about recently is that people debating with conspiracy theorists have a little catch-22 that might be a little unfair, even if the whole theory is bullshit.

Basically, people will say something to the effect of, "This conspiracy would have to involve so many people that it's inevitable that mistakes would be made that would expose it." When such supposed "mistakes" are pointed out by the conspiracist, they are told, "Sure, a huge global conspiracy is just going to spill the beans on its own project."

Not that this has any bearing on whether or not the Illuminatus conspiracy theorist is correct or not - they aren't - but it's something I've noticed as a tendency in these discussions. You should challenge the conspiracist's assumptions, not respond with further assumptions.

This is why if such conspiracies existed in which they are airtight on leaks, it would be pointless to even care about them.

If the world's markets were controlled by lizard men from Planet X, and it is impossible to confirm such a conspiracy, then its pointless to even bother caring about it. Hence why I think conspiratists are stupid.

[AmilcarCabral]

Hi Xena: Well I didn't mean that every single citizen in United States, Europe and many other capitalist countries of this world suffer from avoidant disorders, and other mental disorders that unables them to join together with other people in order to talk about economic problems.

And not everybody lives in a conspiracy of denial and in a conspiracy of silence like I said in my former comment. However the movies The Matrix are related to what I am talking about here, about how most people in USA might be awake, might hate Democrats, Republicans and capitalism, but they evade and avoid communicating with other people about the need of a political revolution in America.

Not everybody lives in a state of silence and denial in USA, but I think that a large percentage of the population of USA lives in denial and silence, maybe because they are too physically tired from too much physical work all day, and stressed.


.



Dude, as someone who has AvPD (although that very phrase is contentious) and has extensively researched personality disorders, I can tell you that they cannot be extended to entire populations. It is very dangerous to individuals who legitimately suffer with these kinds of problems to generalise them so. I could go on and on explaining it but I haven't the time or energy, and you haven't the experience to fully comprehend.

Please don't do it.

[The Intransigent Faction]

George Carlin hit the nail on the head:

VAFd4FdbJxs

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

A lot of things are called 'conspiracies' or 'extremist' when their ideas or accusations are in their infancy and not supported by evidence.

What separates a 'conspiracy' from a genuine position is that conspiracies tend to be based on assumptions that have been dis-proved, are easily dis-provable, or are not falsifiable (sorry to borrow Popper language).

For example, whereas people might once have raised an eyebrow at the idea of Reagan funding the installation of right-wing dictatorships in South America to test out Friedmanite economic policies, or at the existence of COINTELPRO, both of these 'conspiracies' are now pretty much accepted as fact because there is genuine evidence to prove their existence without resorting to conjecture or wild assumptions.

The idea that we are descended from lizards, or that there is some shadowy cabal that rules the world, or the jewish banking conspiracies, are based on crazy assumptions, and cannot be proven with evidence. No evidence = it's a bullshit, consciousness-numbing conspiracy by some 'listen to me i'm god' loon.

[Hexen]

Well all I can say that small scale conspiracies do happen (Watergate, Iran Contra, etc) but however the larger the conspiracy is (NWO, ZOG, etc) the more implausible it becomes.

Another fact too that the groups who are propitiating these large scale Conspiracy Theories are the extreme right wing (NWO = right wing libertarians, populists, paleoconservatives, / ZOG = neo-nazis, fascists, etc).

[Xena Warrior Proletarian]

Hi Xena: Well I didn't mean that every single citizen in United States, Europe and many other capitalist countries of this world suffer from avoidant disorders, and other mental disorders that unables them to join together with other people in order to talk about economic problems.

And not everybody lives in a conspiracy of denial and in a conspiracy of silence like I said in my former comment. However the movies The Matrix are related to what I am talking about here, about how most people in USA might be awake, might hate Democrats, Republicans and capitalism, but they evade and avoid communicating with other people about the need of a political revolution in America.

Not everybody lives in a state of silence and denial in USA, but I think that a large percentage of the population of USA lives in denial and silence, maybe because they are too physically tired from too much physical work all day, and stressed.


.

I'm sure that you meant no harm, but you have taken these symptoms as abstract concepts when if you could feel them (as I do) you would understand that they are not throwaway lines. The relationship between even the populace of the matrix as a whole and AvPD is equatable to your comment that Americans could be classified as agoraphobic on account of spending large amounts of time in their SUVs.

It is an easy mistake to make, but you are working backwards - trying to find evidence for your theory (as opposed to the other way around). If you could feel the extent of extreme social anxiety, and all the rest then you would know that an entire population afflicted in such a way would not be the worlds largest economic superpower, and would probably be incapable of surviving beyond a week or two.

It would be silent carnage.

[bropasaran]

If someone really believes in some insane conspiracy theory, there is no way to convince them that it isn't true. If someone believes the reptilian story or something like that, it's likely that he's a candidate for institutionalization.

If someone's into some illuminati / rotary club / templars / freemasons conspiracy, I sometimes engage them and just turn the story around. Not so long a guy was like- "Your anarchism is the work of the devil- communism, anarchism, liberalism, those are all devils inventions through the masons who serve the devil, and the devil also invented heresies, islam and cults", I was like- "No, no, no, you got it all wrong, the freemasons were founded by God during king Solomon to promote what is true and good, and actually the devil founded the Church, they worship the devil in the Vatican, all churches and religious communities are founded by the devil and their leaders secretly worship him".. He then went to give "arguments" for his conspiracy theory, so I just countered with "arguments" for MY conspiracy theory. I've actually done something like this multiple times, it's fun for a while :grin: when I get bored I'm just like "yeah, believe what you want, but you're serving the devil, I'm not going to waste any more time on your obstinate damned soul."

One time this bible-thumper was doing the above story about the masons making liberalism and communism and he kept calling me out on USSR communism, and I really wasn't going to waste my time and energy to explain my anti-ussr views to a nut job, or any of my view for that matter, so I countered with my conspiracy theory but added a little flavor to it- Jesus was actually an incarnate demon and mocking the real Crucifixion, which was the crucifixion of Spartacus, and Spartacus was actually the real Son of God, God sent him to lead the slave rebellion and to show to the world his opposition to slavery as the grates evil; and in more modern time God used his true church of the freemasons to invent liberalism so that people can combat feudalism, and then lastly God sent Marx as his prophet so that people could use his ideas and combat capitalism, and Marx gave the final prophesy of the arrival of kingdom of God on earth when real communism is established. That story was pretty great, I was real proud of all the ideas that I had in that discussion :lol:

[AnaRchic]

Conspiracies do indeed happen, and others in this thread have listed some of the ones that have been proven. Given that this is the case, I don't dismiss conspiracy theories out of hand, but we must approach them with a high degree of skepticism.

These New World Order ideas are reactionary right-wing neo-fascist nonsense for the most part. Nevertheless, they contain a kernal of truth. The ruling class is consolidating their power on a global scale, and a global bourgeois state power is a wet dream of many capitalists world-wide. Indeed there seems to be a great demarcation within ruling class circles, for example in the US, between the Nationalists (Republicans) and the Globalists (Democrats). One faction wants to cling to the traditional nation state as the best means to protect their own bourgeois affluence, while the other faction seeks to consolidate their power, class-wide, on a global scale. This understanding is, however, far removed from the typical New World Order shit you hear of in conspiracy circles.

On one final note, and I may be controversial on this, I think the JFK assassination is a prime candidate for a conspiracy theory that may actually be true. There are a great many anomalies, and a great deal of at least circumstantial evidence to suggest that there was a wider conspiracy behind that assassination. But lacking any hard evidence I cannot come to a firm conclusion. But I do suspect involvement from certain high-up, black-budget elements of the US government.

[tallguy]

I've got a conspiracy theory for you;

I think it highly likely that our elites deliberately covertly promote dumb-ass conspiracy theories in the dumber end of the culture in order to discredit the idea in the wider culture that our elites engage in conspiracies at all. In turn, providing useful cultural camouflage for actual conspiracies, when they occur.

[Slavic]

I've got a conspiracy theory for you;

I think it highly likely that our elites deliberately covertly promote dumb-ass conspiracy theories in the dumber end of the culture in order to discredit the idea in the wider culture that our elites engage in conspiracies at all. In turn, providing useful cultural camouflage for actual conspiracies, when they occur.

The government conspiracy... is a government conspiracy.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The government conspiracy... is a government conspiracy.

http://troll.me/images/boromir/stop-watching-prison-break.jpg

[synthesis]

Actually, that was the premise of an entire episode of South Park.

[DOOM]

Oh, like the lizard/zionist ones? They're complete, antisemitic rubbish. Everyone who's seriously influenced by leftist anti-capitalist ideas should ignore them.

[mindsword]

i've usually gone by Alan Moore's words:

'Yes, there is a conspiracy, indeed there are a great number of conspiracies, all tripping each other up… the main thing that I learned about conspiracy theories is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is, that it is not the Jewish banking conspiracy, or the grey aliens, or the twelve-foot reptiloids from another dimension that are in control, the truth is far more frightening; no-one is in control, the world is rudderless.'
I prefer Illuminati :grin: less scary, more handy. you know who to blame. :P

They did it!

[Rosa Partizan]

Here in Germany, we got some guy (I talked about him to BIAZED several times) called Ken Jebsen who makes a radio show called KenFM. He's kind of the German leader of all those conspiracy theorists. Of course, there's some jewish twist to it, most conspiracy theorists can't do without that. A mail of his was revealed, titled "I know who invented the holocaust as PR". He denied being an antisemite, but did not deny having written this mail. Moreover he's like "hurrdurr Jews control everything and there is no freedom of speech." Yeah, right. He's also one of the initiators of the "Monday demonstrations" that are taking place here recently. Their top message is "The world's mightiest banks are altogether controlled by one Jewish family". Cool story bro. Cry me a river.

[DOOM]

Proletarian anti-semitism at it's finest. It's really horrible to see, how he gets more likes on Facebook everyday and how the germans actually discuss these bullshit conspiracy theories, like they're some kind of fact.

[74joff]

If someone really believes in some insane conspiracy theory, there is no way to convince them that it isn't true. If someone believes the reptilian story or something like that, it's likely that he's a candidate for institutionalization.

If someone's into some illuminati / rotary club / templars / freemasons conspiracy, I sometimes engage them and just turn the story around. Not so long a guy was like- "Your anarchism is the work of the devil- communism, anarchism, liberalism, those are all devils inventions through the masons who serve the devil, and the devil also invented heresies, islam and cults", I was like- "No, no, no, you got it all wrong, the freemasons were founded by God during king Solomon to promote what is true and good, and actually the devil founded the Church, they worship the devil in the Vatican, all churches and religious communities are founded by the devil and their leaders secretly worship him".. He then went to give "arguments" for his conspiracy theory, so I just countered with "arguments" for MY conspiracy theory. I've actually done something like this multiple times, it's fun for a while when I get bored I'm just like "yeah, believe what you want, but you're serving the devil, I'm not going to waste any more time on your obstinate damned soul."

You can disbelieve all you want however the power of Secret Societies is real. For example Skull & Bones are linked closely with a select group of US east coast Ivy league Yale Uni graduates. One has to come from the wealthiest families just to attend Unis like this.
This is not like attending most Universities in Australia for example where virtually anyone can get accepted at present.
Skull &Bones is masonic like group that is indeed real so to Freemasons themselves.
Then there are the numerous variety of Fraternal student societies of various types on US college campuses.Skull & Bones is simply the most elite of these fraternal student groups, if you've ever seen the movie "The Good Shepherd" Matt Damon movie, it explains exactly what they are like and how they network to help each other into the most elite positions in the US bureaucracy in washington or into various top US pentagon or security agencies like the CIA,NSA or Council on Foreign relations which controls US foreign policy.
This is why voting for one party or the other never gets you any where because they control the political games. The US will go to war on their whim no matter whom is in the white house i don't know how over the past 15 years if you have been around and alert how you could fail to notice this.

[74joff]

These New World Order ideas are reactionary right-wing neo-fascist nonsense for the most part. Nevertheless, they contain a kernal of truth. The ruling class is consolidating their power on a global scale, and a global bourgeois state power is a wet dream of many capitalists world-wide. Indeed there seems to be a great demarcation within ruling class circles, for example in the US, between the Nationalists (Republicans) and the Globalists (Democrats). One faction wants to cling to the traditional nation state as the best means to protect their own bourgeois affluence, while the other faction seeks to consolidate their power, class-wide, on a global scale. This understanding is, however, far removed from the typical New World Order shit you hear of in conspiracy circles.

All in agreement accept for one point you made.That is I doubt GOP are Nationalists anymore than Dems are commies, This simply a wrong ideological/political label.
Both parties would be equally Internationalist/Globalist. As for nwo i believe this is simply the US right wingers name for Globalisation i note this because they never like to use the term Globalisation in my net experience dealing with them they will however use the term Globalism occasionally apart from that its all NWO except nwo is already here however they keep talking about it as though it is some future plan that as not yet happened when in reality it is already here and has been for 20 plus years.

[74joff]

Proletarian anti-semitism at it's finest. It's really horrible to see, how he gets more likes on Facebook everyday and how the germans actually discuss these bullshit conspiracy theories, like they're some kind of fact.

bullshit You claim! What you have to ask yourself is this;
Is your part of the world any better off now that you are not behind the Iron curtain or since the Yugoslavian civil wars in the 90s. I doubt it thats when you have to ask if neither side has made a difference then whats really going on. Havent you asked yourself that question?

[Thirsty Crow]

You can disbelieve all you want however the power of Secret Societies is real. For example Skull & Bones are linked closely with a select group of US east coast Ivy league Yale Uni graduates. One has to come from the wealthiest families just to attend Unis like this.
This is not like attending most Universities in Australia for example where virtually anyone can get accepted at present.
Skull &Bones is masonic like group that is indeed real so to Freemasons themselves.
Skull and Bones doesn't wield any kind of power at all; it's a social club with some rituals probably (those are always good for community spirit) for rich kids and their rich ancestors. It's a consciously elite social club, and so what? What conclusions do we draw from here? That the fate of the world is decided at Skull and Bones meetings? Do you imagine this elite as a tightly knit and homogenous group that makes problems deliberately just in order to pose their own solutions, as kind of saviors?

Contemporary Freemasons, especially the heterodox lodge founded on a split from the Scottish Rite, is also a social club with some vaguely philosophical practices of self-betterment and humanitarian actions, but very far from a club for the wealthy and privileged.

[ProletariatPower]

Conspiracy theories are like religions, people focus on them instead of what is right before there eyes. The conspiracy exists, it is a conspiracy of the Neoliberal "New World Order" who regiment our lives, they are not hiding their identity or intent though, because they don't have to...they've already won and already dominate the world, so focus on fighting that, not some paranoid fantasy that is clearly constructed to boost one's own ego (the idea that only one person ora few others could realise a conspiracy is basically a grandiose delusion of self-importance).

[74joff]

Skull and Bones doesn't wield any kind of power at all; it's a social club with some rituals probably (those are always good for community spirit) for rich kids and their rich ancestors. It's a consciously elite social club, and so what? What conclusions do we draw from here? That the fate of the world is decided at Skull and Bones meetings? Do you imagine this elite as a tightly knit and homogenous group that makes problems deliberately just in order to pose their own solutions, as kind of saviors?

Believe what you want I am not here to change your tunnel vision.However there are several sources that show you are far wrong.
Alexandra Robbins a young women Journalist whom was an ex Yale student in another fraternal society at Yale wrote book on it "Inside the Tomb" plus then writers like Jim Marrs whom many truther americans are familiar whom has claimed the same in "Rule by Secrecy" then there is the movie mentioned above the "Good Shepherd" is very much based on the same facts. You can try to deny or disagree but don't try to pretend you know better than me i ve been into this stuff for years and still am your naive or serving an agenda to be so blatantly dismissive i guess as mod if you try to censor this post that will prove my point even more.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

No, and if you do mention anything even possibly differing from mainstream narratives it's obviously reactionary, stupid, insane and you will be berated and have your words twisted repeatedly and even if you report a post completely it order it doesn't matter, fuck it, you're just a stupid girl with stupid opinions who apparently should be summary executed for a bunch of off hand, informal assertions. :rolleyes: for example, say 9/11 was inside job and you will have people swear it's comparable to ancient aliens or flat earth theory or what you. How you might ask? Fuck it, it doesn't have to make sense, no, "its a conspiracy!" and thus insensitive and socially irresponsible terms are thrown around like 'tinfoil hats' because obviously mocking mental illness is totally cool. That's a very socially responsible attitude for everyone here to hold, isn't it?

Hooray

[74joff]

The conspiracy exists, it is a conspiracy of the Neoliberal "New World Order" who regiment our lives, they are not hiding their identity or intent though, because they don't have to...they've already won and already dominate the world, so focus on fighting that, not some paranoid fantasy that is clearly constructed to boost one's own ego (the idea that only one person ora few others could realise a conspiracy is basically a grandiose delusion of self-importance).

You know there difference between me and most american or even english conspiracy types its the fact that I am left of centre and still believe in conspiracies.
If anything it has helped me to realise more than ever that all secret groups have chosen neo liberalism as their trojan horse for globalised values not communism or even socialism as many Indie Libertarians all claim. So as you see my ideas are my own I am not following the truther script because i am not an indie libertarian.
I think many left wingers are instantly dismissive of such ideas simply because they think the postmodern left has to stick to some kind of manufactured discourse rather than pple actually thinking for themselves. In this way the left wing is not better than religion.
People need to be able to think outside the typical discourse on the left if the left hopes to gain any relevance in future it will continue to slide note what is happening in america and many anglo nations where radical left has been in decline since the 60s.

[Thirsty Crow]

You can try to deny or disagree but don't try to pretend you know better than me i ve been into this stuff or years your naive or serving an agenda to be so blatantly dismissive i guess as mod if you try to censor this post that will prove my point even more.

What can I deny? You're not even ranting coherently and didn't respond to any of the questions I asked.

And you won't get far with this persecution complex. I don't really care whether you've been into this stuff for years or no - a plausible analysis of how things work will be easily followed by evidence. And of course, the perennial truther dig at anyone disagreeing - it must be part of that shadowy secret agenda.



Believe what you want I am not here to change your tunnel vision.This is funny. It seems you don't know how forums work.
You got a particular topic or a set of topics; then you have people with similar yet divergent views engaging in debate. Now, one reasonable goal here is to enhance your knowledge; that works through rationally persuading the person whom you're debating, through evidence, of your position.


But it would seem you have an agenda of your own if you're not interested in this. What would that agenda be?


However there are several sources claim the you are far wrong.Alexandra Robbins a young women Journalist whom was was an ex Yale student in another fraternal society at Yale wrote book on it "Inside the Tomb" plus then writers like Jim Marrs whom many truther americans are familiar whom has claimed the same in "Rule by Secrecy" then there is the movie mentioned above the "Good Shepherd" is very much based on the same facts. That's nice and cute. However, you should be able and willing summarize the basic argument and point facts out; it's completely disingenuous to expect people first to swallow some books (whx would they even do that if they don't know what kind of an argument and evidence procedure is used there; free time is only finite), which amounts to saying "you gotta believe so you might understand".

About that buzzword globalism/globalization, I won't send you off on a hunt for a couple of books; here's an article you can read in an hour or less: https://www.marxists.org/archive/harman/1996/xx/global.htm

EDIT: and about the book Rule by Secrecy:


Marrs then probes the history of the 20th Century -- the Wars in Vietnam, Korea, World War I and World War II, explaining how Wall Street and City of London bankers have financed not only the Nazi War Machine, but the Russian Revolution and the Rise of Communism as well. http://www.conspiracydigest.com/bookrule.html

You can pretty much forget about any shred of rationality here. The pattern is all too familiar; the bankers, maybe even a codeword for Jews, have set up both regimes with their diabolical plans. Utter junk.

[74joff]

And you won't get far with this persecution complex. I don't really care whether you've been into this stuff for years or no - a plausible analysis of how things work will be easily followed by evidence. And of course, the perennial truther dig at anyone disagreeing - it must be part of that shadowy secret agenda.
And you dont have one i suppose. If you dont want to accept different opinions why even allow this subject on the forum!
As the power relationship is clearly unequal you look just like an authoritarian puppet master throwing your weight around.
Treat me like a fool all you want & keep your links i've done my time at university plus other places on ideologies and politics.

[Thirsty Crow]

And you dont have one i suppose. If you dont want to accept different opinions why even allow this subject on the forum! Why would I "accept" opinions I find unsubstantiated and wrong?

What's up with this posing as some kind of a victim?


As the power relationship is clearly unequal you look just like a authoritarian puppet master throwing your weight around I am done with you. Treat me like a fool all you want i dont need your links ive done my time at university plus other places on ideologies and politics.
What power relationship? Do you tend to see shadowy behind-the-doors operations in every aspect of life?

[74joff]

What's up with this posing as some kind of a victim?

Ofcause i feel persecuted why is this attitude wrong here. I wouldn't be on revleft or other anti status quo forums berating the status quo if i wasnt. Why do you think this is something i should be ashamed to admit?

Some of us really do have little $ and very little control over our own lives this not a cliche however as you sound quite sheltered maybe you wont understand this.

You sound like comfortable$ guy for someone claiming to lead the banner for the oppressed i doubt you have ever been oppressed and if you have will you even admit it because right now you seem to be on some kind of self aggrandizing ego trip making you no better than a capitalist ceo in effect your attitude seems just as arrogant completely lacking in empathy.

btw:
You can pretty much forget about any shred of rationality here. The pattern is all too familiar; the bankers, maybe even a codeword for Jews, have set up both regimes with their diabolical plans. Utter junk.

This is not a marxist only forum there are many even on the left at least among left anarchists where i live at least that believe marxism is an elite conspiracy after all did it work in practice?? I have read the guidelines of this forum revleft is NOT a marxist only forum you do not monopolise it or the global left

[a_wild_MAGIKARP]

The way I see it, we already know the ruling class are assholes, so even if they really were all part of some secret club, why would it really matter? They're assholes either way.

There is one thing conspiracy nutjobs often mention that actually seems true and I'm not quite sure how to explain. It seems many famous musicians and celebrities really do use weird "illuminati" symbols.

[Sasha]

There is one thing conspiracy nutjobs often mention that actually seems true and I'm not quite sure how to explain. It seems many famous musicians and celebrities really do use weird "illuminati" symbols.

what are illuminati symbols? because all those supposed illuminati symbols i always hear off are really just originally christian or other religious imagery. there are a lot more christian rock bands using "illuminati" symbols out there than normal pop artists.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I think it's pretty evident that capitalists don't need to be a part of a secret society in order to organise secretive business deals that are detrimental to the working class. 'Secret' societies, more like subcultures with an element of exclusivity, might exist (and if everyone knows about them, are they 'secret'?) but they're only one forum amongst many in which capitalists could interact without any working class intervention. Class struggle doesn't need to be conspiratorial.

[Thirsty Crow]

Ofcause i feel persecuted why is this attitude wrong here. I wouldn't be on revleft or other anti status quo forums berating the status quo if i wasnt. Why do you think this is something i should be ashamed to admit?You're constantly putting words into my mouth.

I'm not saying you should be ashamed of anything. I'm not persecuting you in any way. I'm not questioning whether it's right for you to be here.
What I am doing is completely disagreeing with you on certain points. This goes on every day here with myriads of different points and arguments being vehemently contested.


Some of us really do have little $ and very little control over our own lives this not a cliche however as you sound quite sheltered maybe you wont understand this.Now I sound as sheltered. Probably that's why I argue against your shabby views, because I'm a part of that cabal and doing what I can.

At first I thought to simply refute your silly assumptions but nah, I won't do any such thing as my financial and social situation is irrelevant for this debate.


You sound like comfortable$ guy for someone claiming to lead the banner for the oppressed i doubt you have ever been oppressed and if you have will you even admit it because right now you seem to be on some kind of self aggrandizing ego trip making you no better than a capitalist ceo in effect your attitude seems just as arrogant completely lacking in empathy.

And here's another not so charitable assumption. Being on some kind of an ego trip.

To spell it out in clear terms, I think that secret society conspiracy theories are nothing but poison for people aiming at a clear understanding of exploitation and oppression - and consequently, the ways to fight it.


This is not a marxist only forum there are many even on the left at least among left anarchists where i live at least that believe marxism is an elite conspiracy after all did it work in practice??

Of course, every deficiency, every failure, every problem is due to elite conspiracies.
I couldn't care less for what those anarcho kids believe, apart from being familiar with it enough to demonstrate what is wrong with such a stance.

And of course, Marxism itself has been twisted and used as a ruling class ideology; this ideology worked in practice for the Soviet ruling class of course, but that's not what I'm advocating.


I have read the guidelines of this forum revleft is NOT a marxist only forum you do not monopolise it or the global leftDid I say it was a Marxist only forum?

No, I did not. On the other hand, you're more interested in stifling debate which revolves around points which can be demonstrated as false. This is the well known strategy of whining that someone wants to take away your freedom of speech by merely saying you're dead wrong.

[BolshevikBabe]

Marxists should oppose conspiracy theorists for a number of reasons.

First of all, many of them (at least, the 'grand conspiracy' types) tend to see conspiracies as the main mechanism of historical change - effectively, they're extreme voluntarists who see everything as evidence of a small group of conspirators willing something into existence. This is grossly anti-materialist - it replicates the bourgeois "Great Man" theory of history almost perfectly, except in an inverted form, while ignoring the economic basis for actual exploitation and division between classes. It also suggests the masses are somehow stupid enough to be duped over and over again and are incapable of any actual change, which tends to be a conclusion which serves reactionary purposes. Finally, depending on the conspiracy theory in question, it can have racist ends - the Illuminati/reptilian conspiracy theories which are so popular now are little different from the old anti-Semitic and anti-Masonic conspiracy theories that used to be popular in the West (and still are on 4chan, I guess).

Expanding more on the economic front, conspiracy theories tend to have a petit-bourgeois class background, which is why they so often lean towards producerist conclusions - look at someone like Alex Jones, who aside from his frequent volleys against the "New World Order" (who want to install communism... for some reason) also sees society as under attack from the "unwashed masses" from below. The heroic class to conspiracy theorists are the "squeezed middle", the petit-bourgeoisie and small business who are the real productive force in society, as opposed to two parasitic classes on either side.

The reasons people believe in conspiracy theories, I think, is a lot because while they realize there's something profoundly wrong with the world around them, they hold onto a more exciting and enticing vision of what's wrong. It's much more fun to believe that there's a secret society that runs everything and you're the only one who's onto them than to believe that in fact the "conspiracy" is right in front of your eyes and is conducted by a visible capitalist class who aren't particularly demonic or "reptilian" but do serve ends which exploit and oppress the working class. At the same time, they've been led to believe the usual anti-communist arguments, i.e. "works in theory, not in practice", "human nature", etc. etc.

[Philosophos]

I used to believe all these conspiracy things, because I come from a religious and mostly uneducated family, so that was their way of explaining things. After I actually started using my brains I understood that these things were pretty much bullshit. Also all these conspiracy theories tend to talk about families or certain ethnicities that gather lots of money and they control the world and they take advantage of the poor... I don't know lots of things, but that sounds pretty much like capitalism...

+ A very interesting fact that I learned (don't take it for granted because I don't have the source I just heard it from a guy that I mostly trust about these issues) the other day is that people tend to believe all these theories of people controling in secrecy humanity or aliens etc etc because of evolution or sth like that. Humans that managed to survive (our ancestors) were the people that had the habbit/were able see things that were hidden (aka predators in the bushes). So today's people which originate from these folks, also have this habbit of imaging things or threats.
I repeat, don't take it for granted it's just something I heard from a guy that I trust and sorry for the poor explanation hope you could get the main idea. Also if this is false or true, please let me know :grin:

[ComradeOm]

The way I see it, we already know the ruling class are assholes, so even if they really were all part of some secret club, why would it really matter? They're assholes either wayBecause sometimes it's useful to have an analysis that goes beyond "they're assholes". Not directed at you personally, Magikarp, but that's just a very reductionist and facile way of looking at things.

For example, any half-decent analysis of the Sept 11 attacks would cover the role of US foreign policy, the weakening/collapse of Arab nationalism, the concurrent rise of Islamism, changing patterns of imperialism, etc, etc. To boil all this down to 'the US government did it' not only ignores all these factors but subsequently informs the wrong conclusions.

Similarly, arguing that the US government is directed by 'secret societies' (or that there is a shadowy cabal of 'international bourgeoisie' behind all world events) just glosses over the complexities and realities of class struggle. The result is that the latter are relegated in favour of 'anti-Mason' drives and the like - activities entirely more suited to right-wing nutjobs than those looking to build a mass socialist movement.

[Vladmir Lenin]

That MKULTRA shit is really interesting. If you have the time to look into it, I highly recommend it - very intriguing.

[74joff]

I'm not saying you should be ashamed of anything. I'm not persecuting you in any way. I'm not questioning whether it's right for you to be here.
I wasnt referring to the banter here on the forum when i said persecuted I am talking about my everyday life as i said this is not a cliche for me.
Everyday i live a life where my personal government and corporate records have put my reputation in the mud.
This makes it hard for me to advance with a normal life due to the way many corporate and government organisation now screen people out during recruitment screening I am presently working to clear my name after i only recently gained evidence these records were being used against me by corporate scum!
Naturally i have become a big believer in civil liberties and privacy issues. If any of you are serious activists for your cause you will know that slightest things can get s into trouble these days with the law due to the police state globalisation is creating in just about every nation.
This not to say under certain left wing governments there would not be a zero tolerance police state however clearly the left are not the ones with power balance right now corporate neo liberals have and they are acting every bit like any fascist authoritarian regime there has ever been in which ever country they set up shop in business thus government.


Now I sound as sheltered. Probably that's why I argue against your shabby views, because I'm a part of that cabal and doing what I can.

Could be!There have been plenty of scorpions that have lead movements or political parties/groups in the past down the wrong path take Stalin for example in regards to marxism!
I have no doubt a large majority of political movements on both sides of the spectrum are infiltrated by intel agencies or secret societies its an historical plus present hidden fact. For all i know you could be in one these groups your blanket dismissal makes me suspicious for sure.


At first I thought to simply refute your silly assumptions but nah, I won't do any such thing as my financial and social situation is irrelevant for this debate.

Perhaps you have something to hide then your not helping yourself! I have told you a little about myself in regards to my reason for persecution complex, yet you have no intention of returning the favour looks pretty one sided to me.


To spell it out in clear terms, I think that secret society conspiracy theories are nothing but poison for people aiming at a clear understanding of exploitation and oppression - and consequently, the ways to fight it.

Not at all politics only gives black and white answers at best, most people in the world are moving on from purely ideological/political explanations for things.
The Metaphysical realm is getting far more credence than before this is due to the internet some due to better education on these issues.
I am sure most people in the world today know more about spiritual issues these days than most ordinary folks would have in say the 1920s or 30s when most socialist ideologies where in their heyday and more likely swallowed whole without question.
It would be crude to consider everyone with these beliefs simple thats insulting to the long tradition of western & eastern esotericism in metaphysics not everything is politics or even rational or empirical. I am sure many secret societies themselves would agree with me on this point, that you cannot just put esotericism into the dust bin just because its not based on your neo platonic or socratic method assumptions on how all things should be judged.

It goes without saying marxism is based on large amount of neo classical (ancient greek) assumptions in philosophical foundations these are the very ones you are attempting to us to disrespect my argument.Try seeing the coloured areas life.Life is not so black and white i for one dont fit well into the borg so your centralising over rationalising, authoritarian approach wont work well on me.

btw: When i talk about his stuff I am not linking my self to shameless US libertarian snake skin salesman like Alex Jones I do not get my info from them infact one of most favourite books in my collection is Judith Starr Millers(aka lady Queensboroughs "Occult Theocracy" written well over 50 years ago so no I am not on this US truther bandwagon I developed my own interest over time.

[74joff]

First of all, many of them (at least, the 'grand conspiracy' types) tend to see conspiracies as the main mechanism of historical change - effectively, they're extreme voluntarists who see everything as evidence of a small group of conspirators willing something into existence. This is grossly anti-materialist - it replicates the bourgeois "Great Man" theory of history almost perfectly, except in an inverted form, while ignoring the economic basis for actual exploitation and division between classes. It also suggests the masses are somehow stupid enough to be duped over and over again and are incapable of any actual change, which tends to be a conclusion which serves reactionary purposes. Finally, depending on the conspiracy theory in question, it can have racist ends - the Illuminati/reptilian conspiracy theories which are so popular now are little different from the old anti-Semitic and anti-Masonic conspiracy theories that used to be popular in the West (and still are on 4chan, I guess).

Expanding more on the economic front, conspiracy theories tend to have a petit-bourgeois class background, which is why they so often lean towards producerist conclusions - look at someone like Alex Jones, who aside from his frequent volleys against the "New World Order" (who want to install communism... for some reason) also sees society as under attack from the "unwashed masses" from below. The heroic class to conspiracy theorists are the "squeezed middle", the petit-bourgeoisie and small business who are the real productive force in society, as opposed to two parasitic classes on either side.

&

I used to believe all these conspiracy things, because I come from a religious and mostly uneducated family, so that was their way of explaining things. After I actually started using my brains I understood that these things were pretty much bullshit. Also all these conspiracy theories tend to talk about families or certain ethnicities that gather lots of money and they control the world and they take advantage of the poor... I don't know lots of things, but that sounds pretty much like capitalism...


I was going to respond to both of you however i have given my detailed reason for refutation above in my response to LinksRadical your posts cover the same territory.
May i suggest though both of you start thinking of the matter in more metaphysical or esoteric terms than merely thinking of it all as conspirotainment consumed by some hillbilly libertarian crackpot in texas listening to Alex Jones. Increasingly they are british now also which must be big blow to the no nonsense approach educated english were stereotypically perceived to have.

[74joff]

Because sometimes it's useful to have an analysis that goes beyond "they're assholes". Not directed at you personally, Magikarp, but that's just a very reductionist and facile way of looking at things.
Any esoteric expose that is reductionist or facile is merely conspirotaiment not worth much! Your judging it all by the lowest common denominator there are better sources for this material than you know. I will leave it to you to research them if you have any sincere interest what so ever.

[74joff]

what are illuminati symbols? because all those supposed illuminati symbols i always hear off are really just originally christian or other religious imagery. there are a lot more christian rock bands using "illuminati" symbols out there than normal pop artists.
Where did you get this idea? The Third Eye of eastern/western esoteric tradition which conspiracy types claim is used by the Illuminati right or wrong, is definitely NOT a christian symbol!! Why not punch third eye in to google or wikipedia find out what it s all about try to at least educate yourself away from disinfo.

[Ritzy Cat]

I don't "BELIEVE" in the African Illuminati Conspiracy theory.

I KNOW it is true.

http://africanilluminati.webs.com

Don't donate money to the countries of Africa - they are actually a single evil empire whose residents live miles beneath the surface of Africa developing nuclear weapons with your charity money.

[74joff]

I KNOW it is true.

http://africanilluminati.webs.com

Don't donate money to the countries of Africa - they are actually a single evil empire whose residents live miles beneath the surface of Africa developing nuclear weapons with your charity money.
This your idea of a jest I suppose? This is a perfect example of conspirotainment if there was one.
If your dumb enough to like this stuff i dont think your mature or smart enough to understand ideology either!.

[74joff]

I assume many here are also overly sensitive about the anti semitic thing some as bad about it as fundie US evangelical christians why bother falling over yourselfs to defend the hypocrisy of Israeli fascism against arabs.
I doubt the jews care any more for the left. They have shown their true character and shown more than clearly what its like when they have the chance to run their own state of Israel the facts speak for themselves. They certainly no longer deserve to be put on any pedestal as an honourable culture or religion to emulate.
Of Cause if you are one you will disagree but will be easy for me to spot.However that would be consenting to Israeli fascism and the inhumanity towards the palestinian people.
The age of jewish exceptionalism is over in mass public consciousness as much as US exceptionalism of course they go hand in glove anyway. Jews only have themselves to blame for this of cause they will always pull out the anti semite card which is getting more shrill & hollow as every years goes by.

[Sasha]

Nope, in fact people like you (who can't differentiate between Israeli's and "the Jews") are the reason the anti-Semitism card is still as valid as ever. Bye, banned...

[Sasha]

Where did you get this idea? The Third Eye of eastern/western esoteric tradition which conspiracy types claim is used by the Illuminati right or wrong, is definitely NOT a christian symbol!! Why not punch third eye in to google or wikipedia find out what it s all about try to at least educate yourself away from disinfo.

Sure, the eye in the triangle is in no way an evolution of the god-architect symbolism, you know from this;
http://guiddoo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Sistine-Chapel.jpg
Through this;
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-WREFK5-BXvQ/UAnsvfNP76I/AAAAAAAAAm0/tOWd3nvxTlM/s640/blake_ancient_of_days.jpg
To this:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lxHkFGQPc90/TJATYzcDz7I/AAAAAAAABHc/V7RoishZuKo/s400/all_seeing_eye_gifneri7o.png
Nope, no connection what so ever.

Also, the triangle is not a reference to the holy trinity, nope, silly me.