The Uninfinite Universe

[STI]

I just finished my High School philosophy course, so tell me what you think.

The Universe couldn't be infinite, because, if it were, everything within it would be infinite, since everything occupies a fraction of the universe (this could be applied to mass, volume, etc). To show that everything would be infinite, we could use the simple equation:

1/x * infinity
= 1/x * infinity/1
= infinity/x
= infinity

(x=the fraction of the universe which a given object occupies)

Since gravity states that objects are attracted to each other, and, the higher the mass of an object, the stronger its pull, all objects cannot have the same mass (infinity). If they did, all objects would have an equal gravitational pull, and the solar system (all of space, really), wouldn't function as it does now.

Also, the universe is expanding. If the universe were infinite, it wouldn't possibly be able to increase in size, since its size would be infinite. Therefore, the universe is finite.

Let me know what you think

Thanks.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Just a quick though, Kant would say that we cannot imagine the boundaries of space, we can always imagine that there is more. Just a quick thought as I have a branch meeting in a while so I'm just browsing.

[Individual]

If x=a fraction of the universe, why do you have it equaling 1?

The only number that could divide into the infinite universe and still make it infinite would be one.

However you do not know what the fraction would be. The problem with this fraction, is that it doesn't prove anything. And if there is something I have missed, please explain clearly your equation, without just posting it as proof.

[STI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 06:22 PM
If x=a fraction of the universe, why do you have it equaling 1?

The only number that could divide into the infinite universe and still make it infinite would be one.

However you do not know what the fraction would be. The problem with this fraction, is that it doesn't prove anything. And if there is something I have missed, please explain clearly your equation, without just posting it as proof.
I don't have x=1. I have 1/x. But would get the same result no matter what x is, since (infinity)/2= (infinity).


I'm saying that (infinity)/anything = infinity. Whatever x is, (infinity) divided by it will = infinity. Infinity goes on forever, so half of it would still go on forever, since forever has no end.


"Just a quick though, Kant would say that we cannot imagine the boundaries of space, we can always imagine that there is more. Just a quick thought as I have a branch meeting in a while so I'm just browsing."

Just because we can't imagine the boundaries doesn't that mean they aren't there.

[toastedmonkey]

Thats an interesting way of looking at it, i havent done so previously.

I suppose i believe both giest and tiger, it makes great sense for the universe to be finate but also impossible to comprehend.

Interesting stuff.

[cubist]

feel free to correct me if i have jumped the gun

ok well x= the fraction of the universe which given unit occupies,

but the formula you use implies infinity can be given a finite value which it can't else it wouldn't be infinite as


P = infinity
x = earth = 5.9742 × 1024 kilograms

so

1/x * P = 1 the value must be assumed for any manipulation of formulae
P*x = x
x = x/P
= P

now if you run 5.9742 x 1024

(5.9742 x 1024) * P = (5.9742 x 1024)which would imply P equals 1 but that wouldn't be infinite

how can X be a fraction when large amounts of space are mass less and just a vacuum

[LSD]

Effectively the argument is that the universe is 3rd dimensionally infinite, however finite at higher dimensions, much as how the surface of the earth is 2nd dimensionally infinite but 3rd dimensionally finite.

Today, most agree that the universe is finite at a higher level, the debate now is over the shape, not finity, of the universe.

[apathy maybe]

Ignoring mathimatical stuff like that, there are a number of reasons why it is unlikly that the universe is infinite, and is thus 'uninfinite'.

These reasons are as follows:
Physics tells us that the universe is not infinite.
If the universe was infinite that means somewhere (in this universe) there is another world just like earth where I am sitting in front of a computer typeing at che-lives (except on that world I am either naked or fully clothed depending on which one I am not right now).
In an infinite universe it means that if a god or gods exist they must exist inside the unverse and that causes all sorts of problems. (Unless we are just dreaming, that we are God dreaming of beings like us dreaming that we are dreaming inside God, that we are God etc.)

Some reasons why the universe may not be infinite follow:
If God or gods exist then they most likely exist outside the physical universe.
A non-infinite universe fits with the idea that the universe is infact a computer program run on a computer out side the universe. 'Cause there isn't enough space on the computer its not infinite.
Physics tells us that there is a finite number of particals in the universe, thus there is a finite universe.

[LSD]

Aside from some really weird shit (God/God dreaming/computer programs) you have a point.

The fact is that people are pretty sure at this point that the Universe is finite.

[Umoja]

We're saying the Universe is finite because we can't comprehend anything else. I think it's finite, but infinitely expanding.

But the Universe is some giangantic dream. That's why nothing makes sense.

[STI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 08:40 PM
feel free to correct me if i have jumped the gun

ok well x= the fraction of the universe which given unit occupies,

but the formula you use implies infinity can be given a finite value which it can't else it wouldn't be infinite as


P = infinity
x = earth = 5.9742 × 1024 kilograms

so

1/x * P = 1 the value must be assumed for any manipulation of formulae
P*x = x
x = x/P
= P

now if you run 5.9742 x 1024

(5.9742 x 1024) * P = (5.9742 x 1024)which would imply P equals 1 but that wouldn't be infinite

how can X be a fraction when large amounts of space are mass less and just a vacuum
x would have to be a finite value of the universe, because, if it weren't, it wouldn't exist.


If it were infinite, there would be an infinite amount of matter, no matter (no pun intended) how much vacuum there was.

[Umoja]

Vaccum is a part of the Universe, I thought.

[cubist]

yes but the vaccuum is massless and can't be placed into a fraction of the universe (x)

[STI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 01:57 PM
Vaccum is a part of the Universe, I thought.
It is, but i don't see your point.

[cubist]

this is very similar to the maths example of the arrow hiting the rabbit by maths tha rabbit never gets hit in practice the rabbit dies.

i will find the math if anyone wishes.

[STI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 02:45 PM
this is very similar to the maths example of the arrow hiting the rabbit by maths tha rabbit never gets hit in practice the rabbit dies.

i will find the math if anyone wishes.
That'd be cool, if you don't mind. Thanks.

[Umoja]

If vaccum is part of the Universe, then why can't it be infinite? Matter continues to expand to fill the infinite amount of space that exist.

[STI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 03:57 PM
If vaccum is part of the Universe, then why can't it be infinite? Matter continues to expand to fill the infinite amount of space that exist.
Because, in a finite universe, there would be a finite amount of vacuum. Even if matter expanded to fill that vacuum, you would still have a finite amount of matter.

[cubist]

ok Zeno's

Suppose you have a race between Achilles and a tortoise. Now suppose that Achilles runs 10 times as fast as the tortoise and that the tortoise has a 10 meter head start at the beginning of the race. Zeno argued that in such a situation, it would take Achilles an infinite amount of time to catch the tortoise.

like the half life law since you can never stop halfing the value it becomes infinite

where pA (pT) is Achilles&#39; (tortoise&#39;s) position, mA (mT) is the maximum position of Achilles (tortoise) from the starting point, kA (kT) is a constant representing Achilles&#39; (tortoise&#39;s) speed, and t0 is the amount of time that the tortoise ran to reach his head-start point. Since Achilles runs faster than the tortoise, then kA < kT. The limit as Achilles&#39; (tortoise&#39;s) position approaches infinity is mA (mT), the horizontal asymptote.

The argument made in the original proof is valid until Achilles has caught up with the tortoise, so their positions are the same:

pA(t) = pT(t)

mA - kA/t = mT - kT/(t+t0)

(mA-mT) t^2 + [(mA-mT) t0 - (kA-kT)] t - kA t0 = 0

Solving for the time t by using the quadradic equation:

t = -[(mA-mT) t0 - (kA-kT)] + sqrt([(mA-mT) t0 - (kA-kT)]^2 - 4 (mA-mT) kA t0] / [2 (mA-mT)]



oh and you can&#39;t use algebra on infinity *edit* aparently

[STI]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 05:18 PM
ok Zeno&#39;s

Suppose you have a race between Achilles and a tortoise. Now suppose that Achilles runs 10 times as fast as the tortoise and that the tortoise has a 10 meter head start at the beginning of the race. Zeno argued that in such a situation, it would take Achilles an infinite amount of time to catch the tortoise.

like the half life law since you can never stop halfing the value it becomes infinite

where pA (pT) is Achilles&#39; (tortoise&#39;s) position, mA (mT) is the maximum position of Achilles (tortoise) from the starting point, kA (kT) is a constant representing Achilles&#39; (tortoise&#39;s) speed, and t0 is the amount of time that the tortoise ran to reach his head-start point. Since Achilles runs faster than the tortoise, then kA < kT. The limit as Achilles&#39; (tortoise&#39;s) position approaches infinity is mA (mT), the horizontal asymptote.

The argument made in the original proof is valid until Achilles has caught up with the tortoise, so their positions are the same:

pA(t) = pT(t)

mA - kA/t = mT - kT/(t+t0)

(mA-mT) t^2 + [(mA-mT) t0 - (kA-kT)] t - kA t0 = 0

Solving for the time t by using the quadradic equation:

t = -[(mA-mT) t0 - (kA-kT)] + sqrt([(mA-mT) t0 - (kA-kT)]^2 - 4 (mA-mT) kA t0] / [2 (mA-mT)]



oh and you can&#39;t use algebra on infinity *edit* aparently
Forgive me, but i fail to see your point. Could you please explain it to me? (and talk slowly :P ). Thanks.

[Rasta Sapian]

ok first of all math sucks&#33;
2nd of all, for years the most mainstream opinion of the universe was that it was constanly expanding, and considered infinate&#33;

however, people once thought the earth was infinate and flat&#33;
our great oceans must have looked much like the way we see the university now, with its galaxies light years apart, which are all simutainiously conneted by time and matter.

Therefore I agree that universe must in fact be finite&#33; How space and time reflect what weh are looking at through light energy is still a mystery, much like the ocean must have looked many years ago&#33;

[Individual]

where is your information coming from that people once thought the world was infinite?? This is clearly something I have never heard, and on top of that, is insanely impossible if it were also flat.

You say that people once thought the earth was infinite and flat. I do not believe for an instant that anyone believed both of these theories, let alone that is was infinite. Could be wrong, just wondering where it is that you got this information.

Cephas: I see where you are coming from about half life is infinite. I also see where you are trying to get at with the tortoise race. The equation does equal out to absolute zero. However how would this prove that the universe is finite? This equation would only prove this if the universe had a maximum destination, or point. You are assuming something that cannot be assumed. Therefore this equation does nothing to prove that the universe is finite. Where is the ending/maximum point that would be needed to figure this out? We do not know, for all we know, there may be no maximum point.

[toastedmonkey]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 08:02 PM
Forgive me, but i fail to see your point. Could you please explain it to me? (and talk slowly :P ). Thanks.
Basically its an ellaborate way of saying &#39;one number divided by another can never equal zero&#39;

[LSD]

however, people once thought the earth was infinate and flat&#33;

It is&#33;&#33; (from a 2d perspective)


Therefore I agree that universe must in fact be finite&#33;

It is&#33;&#33; (from an 11d perspective)


The Universe must be infinite

It is&#33;&#33; (from a 3d perspective)


See how it all works out&#33;&#33;

[STI]

Originally posted by toastedmonkey+Jan 29 2004, 08:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (toastedmonkey @ Jan 29 2004, 08:13 PM)
[email protected] 28 2004, 08:02 PM
Forgive me, but i fail to see your point. Could you please explain it to me? (and talk slowly :P ). Thanks.
Basically its an ellaborate way of saying &#39;one number divided by another can never equal zero&#39; [/b]
I see, but isn&#39;t the geometric series:

8, 4, 2, 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32... a finite series, since it doesn&#39;t reach any higher than 16?

[STI]

Originally posted by toastedmonkey+Jan 29 2004, 08:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (toastedmonkey @ Jan 29 2004, 08:13 PM)
[email protected] 28 2004, 08:02 PM
Forgive me, but i fail to see your point. Could you please explain it to me? (and talk slowly :P ). Thanks.
Basically its an ellaborate way of saying &#39;one number divided by another can never equal zero&#39; [/b]
I see, but isn&#39;t the geometric series:

8, 4, 2, 1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32... a finite series, since it doesn&#39;t reach any higher than 16?