A question for the non-believers

[''electra'']

I got a question for all of u who don't believe in god.Do u admit that despite not believing in him there are times that u feel like praying ? I don't believe in god too, but sometimes when i feel very desperated, the prayer comes to me like an instict.I try to chase it away though,because i don't really believe that sth 's going to change if i pray.And some people i know who claim they are atheists ,told me they have felt like praying many times in their life .So prayer is an instict?!!

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

I don't any more, I feel I have freed myself from the shackles of religion. I am confident enough in humanity to completely disregard prayer of any sort and will never do it again except in some kind of mock fashion.

With time non believers learn to live without God, I find it's easy to do so now though I am agnostic I feel that religion can do nothing for me.

If I ever felt like praying I'd consider it a sign that my beliefs needed to be re-examined and I would set about doing so.

[Individual]

Good question, however I am here to answer your question. I am proof that prayer is not an instinct. And also if you think back in history, before Jesus, there have been time without religion which would mean that it is not instinct. Do any other animals pray? We share most instincts with animals. Eating, Sleeping, and Survival are common instincts.

Well I am atheist, or atleast I do not believe in any structured religion. I have never been inside a church throughout my entire life. May be hard to believe, however it is true. Not for weddings, funerals, or even on Sunday. Never. My point is that I have never had an experience of God being preached to myself. And I have never had the urge to pray. Have never even thought of it. My grandmother has recently passed, who I deeply cared for, and yet I have never felt the urge to pray.

My theory on your question is that if you have been exposed to a religious activity, and have been at one point familiar with religion, then you most likely have feeling in your mind that will go back to a time when you had hope in something. That is what many people become religious for; so that they have something to fall back on to help them through troubled times. So even if you are now atheist, you still have these feelings of security inside you, and you long for an outing of your thoughts. This may not make sense, however all this basically means is that if you have at one point been exposed to a religion, you still have that in your memory. You are called back to that in a time of need and you feel that it is the right thing, and it feels good to get it out.

There is nothing wrong with anyone believing in a higher being. However if you are atheist, you absolutely do not believe in a God of any sort. Now if you stopped following your religion for other reasons than your belief of God, then you probably still have belief in a God, just not in your religion. This does not make you atheist. And there is nothing wrong with this. So you really might want to figure out if you still have any religious following, anything at all, and this could answer why you may still ahve the urge to pray. I could be way off in your case, and you just might like to pray. If this is the case, my question to you would be, do you pray to a God, or do you pray just to pray, and do not necessarily pray to a God?

[Pete]

Do u admit that despite not believing in him there are times that u feel like praying ?

Nope. I have faith in my self, in humanity, and above all in that abstract yet completely physical concept known as 'nature.'

:)

[mia wallace]

yes, i believe it's an instict. a kinda. i've listened once on radio that sciencist had discovered a center in human brain and its task is to talk to god (prayer). and about prayer not changing anything - there were many cases when people thought the prayer really changed sth, but i believe it's on mental level - if u believe sth is going to change (with u, e.g. u have a cancer and u pray and cause of that u believe u're gonna get well again) it might happen. it sounds strange, but it's true.

[LSD]

Actually, I've never felt that need, but then I've been an atheist for as long as I can remember.

[mia wallace]

is there anyone here who believes in god?

[toastedmonkey]

I dont feel i ever need or want to pray.

I think the reason why it feels like an instinct to many, is because from birth we are surrounded with religion, like being baptised and at school singing hymns in assembly and prays before eating. Many questions as a child are answered with religion because its easier to explain stuff with religion, rather than science, as it is fiction and easier for children to swollow.

[Pete]

Originally posted by mia [email protected] 27 2004, 04:18 PM
is there anyone here who believes in god?
An unfortuantely large amount of posters do, check the forum's sticky simply entitled 'god.'

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Oddly enough for a forum of this nature a few do.

[mia wallace]

An unfortuantely large amount of posters do, check the forum's sticky simply entitled 'god.'

yeah... i saw it :rolleyes:

[antieverything]

Sometimes I despair and feel like I can't go on...it is in these times I cry out for anyone, anything to help me. Then I realize I don't need anything divine to pull me up...all I have to do is analyze why I am in pain and what chemicals govern my suffering. Understanding psychology and biology as inter-related has been the thing that helps me cope with life almost without anger or despair.

[New Tolerance]

Well, I do feel like praying sometimes when things go bad, but that's probably because I'm agnostic.

It does boost morale for some people when they feel hopeless.

[LSD]

It does boost morale for some people when they feel hopeless.

Yah I guess, but there would have to be an underlying belief there, otherwise it's just talking to yourself (which can be fun, but rarely boosts morale).

[canikickit]

It's not an instinct, it's a habit.
I still use religious words, particularily for blasphemy, and I have occassionaly slipped into prayer for some reason. Quite shameful really. Don't get my started on my religious experience story.

[BuyOurEverything]

No I can't say I've ever had a desire to pray. As toastedmonkey said, it seems like an instinct because you are told since birth that it is 'natural' and a 'normal' thing to do. If you are an atheist, you will eventully overcome it. You don't ever feel an overwhelming desire to make an offering to Zeus, do you?

[Sabocat]

I've been in a couple of extreme circumstances when I seriously thought I was going to die, and I never thought of praying. I had other things to think about.....like trying to stay alive.

[Wenty]

I wish we could start talking more philosophy and less theology.

[DarkAngel]

''Religion is just a fight over who has the best imaginary friend''
-A very smart person :P

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 02:41 AM
It's not an instinct, it's a habit.
I still use religious words, particularily for blasphemy, and I have occassionaly slipped into prayer for some reason. Quite shameful really. Don't get my started on my religious experience story.

It's possibly an Irish thing especially if you are Catholic which over 90% of Irish people are. It is fair to say Irish people are indoctrinated into Catholicism.

Irish colluqaisms will always include 'Jesus Christ' and 'Jesus, Mary and Joseph'.

Can you imagine Ireland without these little religious words slipping into conversation?

[Individual]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 09:23 PM
I dont feel i ever need or want to pray.

I think the reason why it feels like an instinct to many, is because from birth we are surrounded with religion, like being baptised and at school singing hymns in assembly and prays before eating. Many questions as a child are answered with religion because its easier to explain stuff with religion, rather than science, as it is fiction and easier for children to swollow.
I agree that this is the way many, current atheists, who once believed in a religion, will occasionally fall back on praying. However I disagree because not all people are brought up like this.

Mia Wallace- I reiterate myself that I have never been around any religious activity, besides debates. So you can not say that it is instinct to pray. I wouldn't even know how to pray. Like Lysergic Acid said, you would just be talking to yourself. If it were instinct, early cave men would have prayed. However cave men had no religion, and therefore did not pray. Instinct means that virtually all people would do it. However I would then disprove your instinct theory. I can 100% say that I have never prayed. Never thought of praying, and wouldn't even know how to pray. Someone needs to have some faith in a higher being to pray, or who are you praying to?

''Religion is just a fight over who has the best imaginary friend'' -haha, perfect analogy

[Rasta Sapian]

It's ok to pray!

give thanks and praise!

to ask for help! It it easy, u don't have to be religious!

Why not see if anyone is listening to you out there, it may change your mind on agnosism?

instinctive: scratching your butt

praying: keeping it real

peace yall

[redstar2000]

I got a question for all of u who don't believe in god. Do u admit that despite not believing in him, there are times that u feel like praying?

Never.

Funny you should mention prayer, though. That's what convinced me that religion was a fraud...when I was six or seven years old.

Being of a scientific bent, I "put god to the test"...and "he" flunked!

I concluded that it was just one more of the lies that grown-ups tell kids.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Blackberry]

I got a question for all of u who don't believe in god. Do u admit that despite not believing in him, there are times that u feel like praying?

The only time that I felt like praying was when I foolishly believed in superstition.

It embarasses me, thinking back to when I thought that praying could help me in difficult times.

I might as well have taken opium instead. They both 'numb the pain'.

[The Children of the Revolution]

Being of a scientific bent, I "put god to the test"...and "he" flunked!


Heathen!! Didn't you read the part of the Bible which says "Do not put the Lord your God to the test"?? Huh, serves you right. What did you pray for anyhow? World Revolution?? :lol:



It's ok to pray!


Indeed it is. I find it quite similar to talking with a friend about "problems" - they don't have to say anything at all, it's just good to know there's someone listening. I am religious, in case people didn't know / guess. I don't pray as much as I should though...



Don't get my started on my religious experience story.


Please, I'd love to hear it! (Seriously, I would...) What happened??

[ComradeRed]

Im buddhist and i dont believe in a god. i dont pray, i chant. personally praying is nothing more than believing that you are communicating with a superior being. It is truly nothing more than thinking to oneself, in my opinion.

[''electra'']

you don't feel an overwhelming desire to make an offering to Zeus do you? But that's another thing, THAT was a habit of the ancient greeks&romans who believed in that specific religion.And when i say ''pray to god'' i don't mean Jesus ,just an upper force really
however cave men had no religion&therefore did not pray You're wrong.They considered elements of nature to be god(the sun, the moon,the thunders etc.)That increases the possibility that prayer might actually be an instict
Being of a scientific bent,I ''put god to the test''....and'' he''flunked! What do u mean by that?What did u do?

[Misodoctakleidist]

I wouldn't know how to pray, i've been an atheist since i was 4 and despite being baptised and going to a christian primary school i've never prayed or been told how to. I think the reason people pray is becuase when you feel completely hopeless it's easier to blame everything on someone else and by praying people feel like they are doing something to help themselves, it also gives them the hope that god will make things better.

I'm not sure if it's instincive to pray but i would be willing to consider the possiblity that people naturaly look for some kind of god figure to eleviate their worries.

[''electra'']

i've listened once on a radio that scientist had discovered a centre in human brain and its task is to talk to god(prayer) But this would mean that everybody prays then!!??
if u believe sth is going to change(with u,e.g.u have a cancer and u pray cause of that u believe u're gonna get well again)it might happen this happens because whatever is going on to our soul has an effect on our body- and the opposite -and not because there is a god

[Sabocat]

this happens because whatever is going on to our soul has an effect on our body- and the opposite -and not because there is a god

That is of course if you subscribe to the belief that there is such a thing as a soul. I don't, and believe that it's not possible to "cure" an illness with prayer, it is just psychosomatic response and has nothing to do with souls or god.

[Palmares]

I have no faith. Blind trust is foolish. But each to there own I suppose.

[cubist]

i don't ever feel like praying, just ask yourself the question and make the answer up it will boost moral too

[Invader Zim]

I remember praying once many many many many etc years ago. But that was a long time ago, praying is pointless, it changes nothing, and I have never, even in the most desperate of circumstances, felt the need to acknoledge the existsnace of a diety.

Praying is dumb... sorry.

[Xvall]

I know what you're talking about, Electra. Occasionally I pray to myself.

[BuyOurEverything]

But that's another thing, THAT was a habit of the ancient greeks&romans who believed in that specific religion.And when i say ''pray to god'' i don't mean Jesus ,just an upper force really

The concept of monotheism and a single entity being a "higher power" is a relatively new concept and is not shared by even close to all religions. Prayer is just a habit of our society.


But this would mean that everybody prays then!!??

Which is obviously not true, so this "scientist" was obviously wrong.

[Zanzibar]

No. And honestly I've been through alot. I was born into the working poor. I have always been poor - all my life. My dad passed on from lung cancer when I was 14, and my mum passed on from MS when I was 16. I'm the last of my family, and I've had to fend for myself since then.

I have never been in a church in my life. Not once. Not once have I ever felt the need to pray. I never will.

Religion is the sigh of an oppressed people. Why would I pray to something that isn't there. Why would I pin my hopes on some false being. Some illussion to keep people like me in line. A fraud to keep us where we are, and keep them where they are.

I recommend you find class consciousness not religion. I reccomend you raise the rifle not the cross. I reccomend you think for yourself, not let them think for you.

... anyway

[Al Creed]

I don't pray anymore.

Like Redstar, I too put god to the test, and he failed. Miserably.

I need no spirit for help. I look to myself for strength, for I KNOW I am strong enough to overcome anything that comes my way.

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

Just remember RavenFan84...KNOWING that you're strong enough to overcome anything that comes your way is routed in a spirit inside you believing you can do it....

It's also been dubbed 'soul force'...knowing you can do anything that comes your way is heavily due to the power of the soul and spirit inside oneself...

just my 2 cents.. :)

[Regicidal Insomniac]

The human soul is bullshit.

I admit I've gotten the urge before- but that's simply a product of my upbringing. Up until this year (grade 10) I've spent all of my schooling in the Catholic board. Prayers were mandatoryat first; you didn't really have a choice with such an undeveloped mind... eventually you didn't have to participate in in the prayer yourself, but when you're surrounded by hundreds of people, heads bowed and talking to themselves, it's beaten into your head one way or another.

My point is just that I've already been indoctrinated. But ever since my transfer to atheism the need has been nearly non-existance; and my self-esteem has been much better. :P

[The Children of the Revolution]

Like Redstar, I too put god to the test, and he failed. Miserably.


This is not the way forwards!! As is written in the Bible, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test".

The more cynical amongst you might decide that this was to ensure that the ignorant masses (back in the days of old) didn't start to question religious authority; asking for proof and the like. This is one interpretation. Praying is unlikely to (hey, you never know!) affect the "physical" world perhaps.

But the strength I get from praying is within myself, in my soul. For I do indeed have a soul. It [praying] gives me a mental boost rather than a new car or the affections of a particular girl.

And come on 'canikickit', I still want to hear of your "religious experience"!!

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 03:55 AM

I got a question for all of u who don't believe in god. Do u admit that despite not believing in him, there are times that u feel like praying?

Never.

Funny you should mention prayer, though. That's what convinced me that religion was a fraud...when I was six or seven years old.

Being of a scientific bent, I "put god to the test"...and "he" flunked!

I concluded that it was just one more of the lies that grown-ups tell kids.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas
To be honest if I were God I wouldn't give a flying fuck about any test some little kid made up.

Fuck you, I'm God I can do whatever the hell i wat, so I"ma watch women shower, then I'ma go down to LA, go to Roscoes Chicken and Waffels and eat 40 pounds of pancakes.

Then I'm going to go Appear in a A Burrito at a Taco stand in San Antonio.

After that I'ma go to mars, create some more life, and then just before the Spirit discovers it I"ma destroy either it or the spirit..I ahven't decided yet

[andresG]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 1 2004, 09:27 PM


Like Redstar, I too put god to the test, and he failed. Miserably.


This is not the way forwards!! As is written in the Bible, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test".

The more cynical amongst you might decide that this was to ensure that the ignorant masses (back in the days of old) didn't start to question religious authority; asking for proof and the like. This is one interpretation. Praying is unlikely to (hey, you never know!) affect the "physical" world perhaps.

But the strength I get from praying is within myself, in my soul. For I do indeed have a soul. It [praying] gives me a mental boost rather than a new car or the affections of a particular girl.

And come on 'canikickit', I still want to hear of your "religious experience"!!
Che just rolled over in his grave.

[cubist]

This is not the way forwards!! As is written in the Bible, "Do not put the Lord your God to the test".

The more cynical amongst you might decide that this was to ensure that the ignorant masses (back in the days of old) didn't start to question religious authority; asking for proof and the like. This is one interpretation. Praying is unlikely to (hey, you never know!) affect the "physical" world perhaps.

But the strength I get from praying is within myself, in my soul. For I do indeed have a soul. It [praying] gives me a mental boost rather than a new car or the affections of a particular girl.

And come on 'canikickit', I still want to hear of your "religious experience"!! ,


a mental boost ey?

fair enough, i always found it did nothing. i still felt the same etc etc.

PM me if you like COTR but how can you trust a GOD who in the bible has been so immoral himself and sets levels of morality fo r you to abide by

[Rasta Sapian]

you may not recieve an instant boost from prayer, it takes alot of faith and time, but if you take the time, and have will to change yourself, god will answer, in one way or another! Once you awake your soul, you will find enlightenment with the devine, and yes prayer will give you a boost!

o ya by the way, there is no money back gaurantee from god! :)

that reminds me maybe i should pray, It's been a while, and I have been one bad mo fo

peace yall

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Rasta Sapian what are your political views, out of interest. I'm just curious.

[che's long lost daughter]

Believing in the existence of a god doesn't mean you have to belong to a religion. You believe because you choose to, not because some frigging religious group dictated that you should.

[DEPAVER]

Originally posted by ''electra''@Jan 27 2004, 05:54 PM
So prayer is an instict?!!
It's a learned behavior.

I pray occassionally, but I'm basically an agnostic just responding to years of conditioning.

Yet, I hope there is a god. A loving god or gods that can forgive sins and make sense of this mess in which we find ourselves.

[toastedmonkey]

I cant help but feel that people that believe in god, arent really thinking about life, like its an excuse to skip deep or logical thought about life.

I mean have you ever tried to argue about religion with a devout religious person, they use the same answer to every question all the time... "Because God said/wanted it to be that way" ARGH! its impossible to argue with them.

It seems they cant think past that line of thought.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Some people do have logical attempts at the existence of God, try Anselms Five Ways, there are some good proofs for God existence at least by some philosophers anyway,

[DEPAVER]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2004, 10:20 PM
Some people do have logical attempts at the existence of God, try Anselms Five Ways, there are some good proofs for God existence at least by some philosophers anyway,
There are no logical attempts for the existence of god, since the laws of logic assume existence.
The existence of god cannot be proven or disproven.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Originally posted by DEPAVER+Feb 2 2004, 10:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DEPAVER @ Feb 2 2004, 10:36 PM)
[email protected] 2 2004, 10:20 PM
Some people do have logical attempts at the existence of God, try Anselms Five Ways, there are some good proofs for God existence at least by some philosophers anyway,
There are no logical attempts for the existence of god, since the laws of logic assume existence.
The existence of god cannot be proven or disproven. [/b]

I was simply stating that there are proofs for the existence of God by some philosophers. No more, no less.

[The Children of the Revolution]

There are no logical attempts for the existence of god, since the laws of logic assume existence.


Just to throw a spanner in the works... How does "1" exist? And how, therefore, can it be used in a logical argument? "1" is just a value we have made up and ascribed to "something" - numbers don&#39;t exist&#33;&#33;



I cant help but feel that people that believe in god, arent really thinking about life, like its an excuse to skip deep or logical thought about life.


Quite the reverse in my case. I have arrived at my faith through "deep" thought, It wasn&#39;t drilled into me from an early age or anything...

[toastedmonkey]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 2 2004, 10:49 PM
Quite the reverse in my case. I have arrived at my faith through "deep" thought, It wasn&#39;t drilled into me from an early age or anything...
Ho did you come to the conclusion that there was/maybe a god or your &#39;faith&#39;?

the &#39;god&#39; thing still seems far to easy an answer, its like &#39;well i cant explain whats going on so it must be a god thats causing this" etc

ps
i dont intend to offend your &#39;faith&#39;

[honest intellectual]

Originally posted by DEPAVER+Feb 2 2004, 10:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DEPAVER @ Feb 2 2004, 10:36 PM)
[email protected] 2 2004, 10:20 PM
Some people do have logical attempts at the existence of God, try Anselms Five Ways, there are some good proofs for God existence at least by some philosophers anyway,
There are no logical attempts for the existence of god, since the laws of logic assume existence.
The existence of god cannot be proven or disproven. [/b]
Yeah, what Geist said. It&#39;s far more than a matter of pure, blind faith. Descartes also &#39;proved&#39; the existence of god by logic.


the &#39;god&#39; thing still seems far to easy an answer, its like &#39;well i cant explain whats going on so it must be a god thats causing this" etcAgain, that&#39;s not the only reason for beleiving in the existence of God.


Just to throw a spanner in the works... How does "1" exist? And how, therefore, can it be used in a logical argument? "1" is just a value we have made up and ascribed to "something" - numbers don&#39;t exist&#33;&#33;Pythagoras is turning it his tomb&#33; Abstract concepts such as &#39;one&#39; absolutely do exist. That&#39;s more certain than the existence of corporeal objects. Maybe you mean it doesn&#39;t physically exist; it doesn&#39;t, but it does have an abstract existence. We can divide one by two, multipy it by thirteen and a half, or cube it. We could not manipulate it like that if it was &#39;nothing&#39;. It must be &#39;something&#39; - just because it&#39;s not physical, that doesn&#39;t mean it doesn&#39;t exist

[The Children of the Revolution]

"Che just turned over in his grave"

"Pythagoras is turning it his tomb&#33;"


Hmmm, much activity amongst the dead... Who here believes in Zombies?



It must be &#39;something&#39; - just because it&#39;s not physical, that doesn&#39;t mean it doesn&#39;t exist


Well precisely. Quite a nice argument for the existence of God you have there. And i- oh wait, you&#39;re talking about the number "1"??



Ho did you come to the conclusion that there was/maybe a god or your &#39;faith&#39;?


Individual, "rational" thought. If you REALLY want to know the specifics, I posted them in an earlier Philosophy thread somewhere. Basically it all stems from my belief in the existence of a soul, which presupposes a creator of some kind...



i dont intend to offend your &#39;faith&#39;


No worries. I am, as far as I know, the only member of my faith.
I shall henceforth be referred to as "Bishop TCOTR" then, if you would... :D

[revolutionindia]

Some people can be so stupid and ignorent
that they do not believe in something as fundamental as god.

God is infinite ,omnipresent
I am a part of god and so are all of you.

we all are parts of this infinite soul
like the drops of the ocean
We are all connected

Know the truth and enjoy the
fruits of knowledge

[cubist]

yes, maybe we are ignorant,

but those who blindly believe in something which has little scientific eveidence to proove existance and they say that those who don&#39;t believe are ignorant, can also be viewed as ignorant.

[Solace]

I am sorry, but there was waayyyyy too much metaphors in revolutionindia&#39;s post for me to take it seriously. Then the fundamental thing cracked me up. :P


Do u admit that despite not believing in him there are times that u feel like praying ? (…) So prayer is an instict?&#33;&#33;

I don&#39;t feel like praying. I don&#39;t pray.

Religion and spirituality was not a major part in my education as a young child. sure, I got some background, but that&#39;s about it. My parents forced no religious concepts such as hell/heaven and I was not taught to pray.

That’s the proof that it’s not something natural that comes to all humans. Given a particular situation, I try to look for the “material” elements that can be changed to get what I want. Otherwise, I angrily accept that it’s beyond my reach and light a cigarette.

Prayer is not a natural instinct, but rather something nurtured by our surroundings. If that makes any sense…

[Individual]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 02:58 PM
Some people can be so stupid and ignorent
that they do not believe in something as fundamental as god.

God is infinite ,omnipresent
I am a part of god and so are all of you.

we all are parts of this infinite soul
like the drops of the ocean
We are all connected

Know the truth and enjoy the
fruits of knowledge
How can you call us stupid and ignorant for not believing in something that can be proven is not there. That is great that you believe, but don&#39;t call me stupid for not believing. Have we called you stupid for believing? We may disagree on existence and presence, however don&#39;t be angered at the fact that we find it impossible to comprehend something as big a fraud as God.

Nobody is stopping you from believing, but do not try and preach to me that I am stupid and ignorant. If you want to think logically. I could call you stupid and ignorant. Why:

stupid-believing in something that has so many contradictions/ cannot think of life on your own/ do not want to take the brain power to contemplate lifes mysteries only because &#39;it was god&#39;/ think of science

ignorant-to the fact that there is literal proof that the bible is wrong/ Have you talked to God? Or was that you talking to yourself?/ Who can prove that God is there? Oh yeh that one guy, &#39;he saw him?&#39;/ Why doesn&#39;t God stop all of the rape, or punish the people that commit this crime? Oh because it goes on in the church/ God knows of human behavior? He was able to speak to Moses/Jesus/Abraham, funny that he knows all of these languages/ If you are so dead set that God is there, what about all of the other Gods that there have been throughout history (Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Mayan? Why aren&#39;t they around anymore? Oh because those Gods weren&#39;t real, just yours?

I am not calling you stupid and ignorant. However think of the arguements made for whos really stupid and ignorant. The facts point to those following &#39;blindly

[iloveatomickitten]

The concept of &#39;God&#39; is no different to a marxists society. People in my experience tend to relate to something in the way that someone who found &#39;God&#39; would relate to &#39;God&#39;. To be so zealous about something is hardly atypical. Religion was an explanation for the unknown and although today has no value in this role, survives as a somewhat abstract and unfounded focus for certain people. &#39;God&#39; is nothing but a member of a much larger sphere of worship so in a way it&#39;s quite of natural, prayer is not instinct but the belief in &#39;God&#39; is to some extent.

[Rasta Sapian]

ok, this is a philosophy forum, so I will have to introduce you to my friend, 13th century philosopher St. Thomas
for more click here:

http://www.biblicaltheism.com/affirmexist.htm

peace yall

[Rasta Sapian]

The cosmological argument, generally credited to Thomas Aquinas (1225?-1274 AD), is concerned with the laws of nature. The central idea of this argument is that the existing cosmos is undeniable evidence of a creator. The natural law that supports this idea is that for every effect there must be an adequate cause. Since nothing can come from nothing and since the cosmos is something, then something or someone must have produced the cosmos. The cosmos is the effect. What then was the cause? If one effect becomes the cause of another effect, then causes and effects may be traced backwards to a beginning, except for the fact that the beginning requires an uncaused first cause. The best way to identify the uncaused first cause is God. Moreover, movement exists, but there is no such thing as perpetual motion. That means someone or something had to start the motion. That demands an unmoved mover, a prime mover. That something could not have been an evolutionary development, because evolution is theorized to operate in an upward progression, but the natural laws of thermodynamics indicate that the universe is decelerating. Finally, all natural things in the cosmos are capable of not existing. All natural things are contingent, i.e. dependent, upon something else. That dependence requires the existence of some necessary being, God. Scripture supports the concept that the creation makes God known (Romans 1:20).

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

You obviously didnt get past the medieval philosophy part of your course, Aquinas five proves and Augustines proofs have been more or less demolished over time.

If you have to resort to the 13th century to provide a good argument for Gods existence you must be desperate. Although a notable attempt at justiying the existence of God Aquinas and Augustine are long since regarded as obsolete.

Try Leibniz or Hegel, do a google and surprise me.

[cubist]

rasta if scripture supported the beatings of homosexuals would it be right?

also i see a problem

the philospher St thomas, talking about christianity HAHAHA all atheist philosphers say the opposite so it would be fair to say that no one knows enough to be sure

the write ayn rands says lots of things too that doesn&#39;t make capitalism right.

[Rasta Sapian]

all I am saying is just look at Aquanas&#39;s 5 just causes for the existance of God, they are pretty hard to disprove, and I have yet to see them disproved&#33;

p.s. I am not desparate to prove anything, what i know is what i know if you know what i mean&#33;

peace yall

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Try Hume and numerous other people who have disproved the Five Ways either inadvertantly or directed.

[cubist]

i don&#39;t disagree nor do i agree,

i just thought that a christian philosopher would always go with the existance of god irelevant of facts, and of course the scriptures would back it up because he would read them,

i don&#39;t know if there is/isn&#39;t a god, all i know is organised religion is not a good thing.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

In defense of Aquinas he dosent use any bibcal scripture to back him up, he uses logic.

[dark fairy]

I&#39;ll tell you the time i feel like praying is if some sort of exorsite shit is happening here... but it is a rough topic... i mean they ask what make the leaf move and answer to that is the air... what makes the air answer particals... or oxygen and hydrogen it is hard

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by Rasta [email protected] 4 2004, 02:06 PM
The cosmological argument, generally credited to Thomas Aquinas (1225?-1274 AD), is concerned with the laws of nature. The central idea of this argument is that the existing cosmos is undeniable evidence of a creator. The natural law that supports this idea is that for every effect there must be an adequate cause. Since nothing can come from nothing and since the cosmos is something, then something or someone must have produced the cosmos. The cosmos is the effect. What then was the cause? If one effect becomes the cause of another effect, then causes and effects may be traced backwards to a beginning, except for the fact that the beginning requires an uncaused first cause. The best way to identify the uncaused first cause is God. Moreover, movement exists, but there is no such thing as perpetual motion. That means someone or something had to start the motion. That demands an unmoved mover, a prime mover. That something could not have been an evolutionary development, because evolution is theorized to operate in an upward progression, but the natural laws of thermodynamics indicate that the universe is decelerating. Finally, all natural things in the cosmos are capable of not existing. All natural things are contingent, i.e. dependent, upon something else. That dependence requires the existence of some necessary being, God. Scripture supports the concept that the creation makes God known (Romans 1:20).
It is currently thought that the "big bang" was indeed a case of "something out of nothing". As counter-intuitive as that may seem, that&#39;s what the evidence indicates so far.

The "big bang" is considered the "first cause" and there is no reason to personify it--name it "God"--except for the philosopher&#39;s own prejudices.

The "big bang" is currently thought to be the "prime mover".

Finally, the "big bang" supplies the foundation of existence for all other things...there is no logical or evidential reason to name it "God".

It&#39;s important to remember that the "big bang" theory is still subject to further tests of evidence--it&#39;s the best explanation that our science has been able to come up with so far. That doesn&#39;t mean that it is "the final and ultimate truth"...still better explanations may be possible.

What it does strongly suggest, however, is that any new theory will have to explain everything that "big bang" theory explains and more besides.

And what has thus far been demonstrated is the complete lack of evidence for the universe resulting from "an act of will" by a "conscious entity".

If there was a "divine artist", "he" forgot to sign "his" work.

:redstar2000:

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Rasta Sapian]

cause and reaction, the reaction is the big bang theory, via billions or years of evolution we have intelligent life. ie. mankind

for every reaction there must be a cause, therefore who created the universe or what, this is something we can&#39;t explain, therefore we label the creator God, call the creator whatever you want, God is just a word, nothing more. However something had to be the cause for the reaction of the big bang&#33;

[Machead]

Originally posted by &#39;&#39;electra&#39;&#39;@Jan 27 2004, 05:54 PM
I got a question for all of u who don&#39;t believe in god.Do u admit that despite not believing in him there are times that u feel like praying ? I don&#39;t believe in god too, but sometimes when i feel very desperated, the prayer comes to me like an instict.I try to chase it away though,because i don&#39;t really believe that sth &#39;s going to change if i pray.And some people i know who claim they are atheists ,told me they have felt like praying many times in their life .So prayer is an instict?&#33;&#33;
Hope is an instinct, it&#39;s defining charecteristic of life, perseverance and belief in spite of complete and total lack of logic and reasoning. Religious dudes are either people that are consumed by this, or were raised by friends/family and don&#39;t know any better, and hold their religion like pride etc.

[redstar2000]

However something had to be the cause for the reaction of the big bang&#33;

Well, that&#39;s what I meant when I said the "big bang" is "counter-intuitive"...it really does seem to be "something out of nothing".

But that doesn&#39;t mean there&#39;s any reason to personify that event...to call it "god" or "creator" or any word that implies the existence of some entity that "caused" the big bang to happen.

However, to tip-toe to the edge of some very murky waters, there are cosmologists who have suggested that three-dimensional universes like ours are the accidental by-products of interactions between much more extensive multi-dimensional universes.

These multi-dimensional universes are mathematical constructs of enormous complexity...there&#39;s no observational evidence that they exist at all.


...this is something we can&#39;t explain, therefore we label the creator God...

You can always label whatever you "can&#39;t explain" as "god" or the result of "god&#39;s work" or whatever.

But it&#39;s a useless form of "explanation"...it doesn&#39;t tell you anything about how the real world actually behaves.

Which is what we need to know.

:redstar2000:

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas