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View Full Version : "Deformed worker's state" & "state capitalism"



Sinister Cultural Marxist
27th March 2014, 22:36
The debate in the thread "Defend North Korea" (an absurd title but there you go) got me thinking about what actually constitutes a "deformed worker's state" as opposed to a "state capitalist" state. Particularly in how we should define the PRC, DPRK and Cuba.

The PRC is obviously state Capitalist, and not worthy of defending. Yet how did it get there in the first place? How did it go from being a "deformed worker's state" to being "state capitalist"? A worker's state implies that workers have control over the economic means of production, yet that was not the case in China. The bureaucracy controlled the means of production, exported goods for the profit of the state and had a clear incentive to make their economic model more efficient in Capitalist terms. It's easy to place the blame on the leaders after Mao such as Deng, yet it was Mao who first sought ties to the West and who posited the theory of "New Democracy" which preserved much of the bourgeoisie.

The DPRK also seems to be state capitalist, as it exploits its labor for export. It even literally exports labor to Siberia to work for Russian logging firms, while the state takes a portion of their wages to pay for its needs. That is despite the fact that many North Korean workers, including those sent abroad to work for foreign capital, live and work in abject conditions? In addition, the DPRK exports heavy arms to a variety of regimes, many of which have no concern for their working class. The government seems to have no sense of "solidarity" in any meaningful way as its arms get sold to governments which are more than happy to shoot their workers. This article in the guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/18/history-north-korea-arms-dealing) mentions Eritrea, Iran and Syria among the countries which import North Korean arms. What's the worth of a "worker's state" when it funds itself in part on selling arms to the most oppressive elements of the national bourgeoisie?

Cuba seems at first glance to be easier to defend because, as some here have said, the mechanisms of control which workers can exert over their government and economic life is greater than in China and the DPRK. Additionally, it has done more to preserve the standard of living of its poorest citizens than these other states. However, Cuba, too, seems to have its own shortcomings that make its status as a "worker's state" questionable. There are serious divisions, for instance, between those workers allowed to access Western currency through the tourist trade, and those left to work in the state sector. This distinction leads to the accumulation of currency by the state and by an elite sector of petit bourgeois and privileged workers. It indicates an inequality and a sense of economic and political alienation between the proletariat and privileged classes. Additionally, the bureaucrats are inefficient when it comes to distributing the kinds of goods necessary to maintain sufficient levels of production, which seems to be driving some of the reforms towards privatization.

Clearly, in between the worker's seizing power in a particular state and the event of a global revolution, a "worker's state" needs to have ties with international capital to import various commodities which the domestic economy cannot produce (perhaps an interesting thread in itself). However, that is different from a state being motivated by the interest of accumulating capital. In what sense is a state a "worker's state", even a "deformed" one, if it is still dominated by Capitalist relations, and if workers themselves lack both political and economic power? In what sense can a "worker's state" be where it represses attempts by workers to organize for themselves yet exports the surplus labor of these workers to keep the state functioning? Or where there is a class with privileged economic control and that is alienated from the working class?

As much as anything else, with the rise of Solidarity and other groups in Eastern Europe, in what sense can these states be "worker's" when the workers themselves do not identify with it and do not see it as fulfilling their interests to the extent to which they even support the restoration of liberal capitalism? What is the purpose of "defending" these states when every single one has been moving back towards liberal capitalism, has restored it outright, or has adopted an authoritarian model of state capitalism? When does a state go from being a "Deformed worker's state" to being "state capitalist"? It seems like a waste of energy and words to defend these regimes.

Brotto Rühle
27th March 2014, 23:34
The DOTP is merely a political entity... the position of the proletariat as the ruling class. The economic basis, the mode of production from which the proletariat exists, is still in tact. As Marx said in his "Conspectus on Bakunin's Statism and Anarchy":

"...so long as the other classes, especially the capitalist class, still exists, so long as the proletariat struggles with it (for when it attains government power its enemies and the old organization of society have not yet vanished), it must employ forcible means, hence governmental means. It is itself still a class and the economic conditions from which the class struggle and the existence of classes derive have still not disappeared and must forcibly be either removed out of the way or transformed, this transformation process being forcibly hastened."

consuming negativity
27th March 2014, 23:40
To me, "degenerated worker's state" seems like a term for what we call "communists who tried but failed", or "states that claim to be Communist or influenced by Marxism". They're transitioning towards capitalism in the same way that every other state has or is transitioning towards capitalism and accumulation of wealth in a small minority of those who control the means of production. Which is certainly not a good thing. But it doesn't fly in the face of our theories - it confirms them, if anything. Marx would be rolling in his grave if, somehow, North Korea had spent the last 30 years transitioning to a classless society. Still, the fact that they are in transition and open to Marxism, if only nominally, puts them a leg above many other states in at least that regard, and makes them useful in a variety of ways, even if they aren't what we'd like them to be. I wouldn't really classify them as "good" or "bad", just animals that are a bit different than the ones around them. We can defend them when they're worth defending, and ridicule them where they deserve ridicule. That's my take, anyway.

Broviet Union
27th March 2014, 23:43
IIRC, in Trotskiite theory, a "Deformed Worker's State" is a Stalinist bureaucratic state created after the USSR became a "Degenerated Worker's State." It is deformed in the sense that it was created in the mold of the USSR, and thus never "degenerated", but was FORMED incorrectly.

Mixing "state capitalism" and "Deformed Worker's State" as terminology is dipping into two different pools of Marxist political theory.

Sinister Cultural Marxist
27th March 2014, 23:57
The DOTP is merely a political entity... the position of the proletariat as the ruling class. The economic basis, the mode of production from which the proletariat exists, is still in tact. As Marx said in his "Conspectus on Bakunin's Statism and Anarchy":

"...so long as the other classes, especially the capitalist class, still exists, so long as the proletariat struggles with it (for when it attains government power its enemies and the old organization of society have not yet vanished), it must employ forcible means, hence governmental means. It is itself still a class and the economic conditions from which the class struggle and the existence of classes derive have still not disappeared and must forcibly be either removed out of the way or transformed, this transformation process being forcibly hastened."

This makes sense, but in what sense is North Korea or the PRC a "dictatorship of the proletariat"? It seems that many of the "Deformed worker's states" are NOT in fact dictatorships of the proletariat, but of a privileged bureaucratic and/or military class. In what sense is a state a "worker's state" if the workers lack political power, any more than say a "liberal state" is a "worker's state"?


To me, "degenerated worker's state" seems like a term for what we call "communists who tried but failed", or "states that claim to be Communist or influenced by Marxism". They're transitioning towards capitalism in the same way that every other state has or is transitioning towards capitalism and accumulation of wealth in a small minority of those who control the means of production. Which is certainly not a good thing. But it doesn't fly in the face of our theories - it confirms them, if anything. Marx would be rolling in his grave if, somehow, North Korea had spent the last 30 years transitioning to a classless society. Still, the fact that they are in transition and open to Marxism, if only nominally, puts them a leg above many other states in at least that regard, and makes them useful in a variety of ways, even if they aren't what we'd like them to be. I wouldn't really classify them as "good" or "bad", just animals that are a bit different than the ones around them. We can defend them when they're worth defending, and ridicule them where they deserve ridicule. That's my take, anyway.

Yes although Trots distinguish between degenerate and deformed states (As BU reminds us) so not all forms of "failed communist states" are "deformed" states.


IIRC, in Trotskiite theory, a "Deformed Worker's State" is a Stalinist bureaucratic state created after the USSR became a "Degenerated Worker's State." It is deformed in the sense that it was created in the mold of the USSR, and thus never "degenerated", but was FORMED incorrectly.


Thanks for clarifying the distinction



Mixing "state capitalism" and "Deformed Worker's State" as terminology is dipping into two different pools of Marxist political theory.

I agree but there does seem to be a fundamental relationship between a party imposing a so-called "worker's state" and the eventual development of State Capitalism (this is, after all, the development many states run by "communist parties" took)

Brotto Rühle
28th March 2014, 00:04
This makes sense, but in what sense is North Korea or the PRC a "dictatorship of the proletariat"? It seems that many of the "Deformed worker's states" are NOT in fact dictatorships of the proletariat, but of a privileged bureaucratic and/or military class. In what sense is a state a "worker's state" if the workers lack political power, any more than say a "liberal state" is a "worker's state"?They aren't... I don't know what you expected me to say. Though, from the position of the Trotskyists, it is a workers state because of some weird notion that a "caste" of the working class has taken control of the state, but not taken the position of ruling class form the proletariat as a whole. It's nonsense, really.

tuwix
28th March 2014, 06:41
(...) When does a state go from being a "Deformed worker's state" to being "state capitalist"? It seems like a waste of energy and words to defend these regimes.

Exactly. There must be a worker's state to be deformed? But was there any? No. There were only in the best scenario elements of worker's control over means of production but never a control of state.

As a person who was born and lived in state capitalist country, I remember there was not democratic control of anything at all. Even in cooperatives which were and are dominated by bureaucracy here...

TC
28th March 2014, 07:12
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? All of these terms reflect the worldview of particular political sects - they are disputed and do not have universally accepted definitions.

"Deformed workers state" is a Post-Trotsky Trotskyist term for states that they think have objectionable bureaucracy (as opposed to praise-worthy Trotskyist party leadership) but have nonetheless overthrown the bourgeoises and transformed relations of production and property ownership in a positive way. This is in contrast to a "degenerate workers state" where the working class once held power in an unmediated direct way but lost it to a bureaucracy. People coming from this perspective would say that deformed and degenerate workers states should be defended against capitalist states and are categorically better than capitalist states but they should undergo political (not social) revolutions to restore a healthy workers democracy. The most common Trotskyist position would be that the Soviet Union was the only degenerate workers state and the other countries led by a revolutionary Soviet-aligned Marxist party are all deformed workers states (except that some Trotskyists exclude post 1980s China as a capitalist state and Cuba as a healthy workers state).

"State capitalist" however is a term used by some Anarchists, Cliffites (Followers of Tony Cliff who self-identify as Trotskyists) and some Maoists and other anti-revisionists. This position amounts to a claim (rejected by mainline Trotskyists and many other Marxists, and social democrats and other liberals) that the Soviet Union and other self-identified socialist states were actually state run capitalist economies. Implicit in this term is a claim that the self-identified socialist states are or were 'just as bad' as "other" capitalist states.

There is also another usage of the term "state capitalist" referring to states where the government owns most industries that it runs as if private businesses, such as many American aligned states in the middle east. It is possible to use this version of the term "state capitalist" either in conjunction with the previous usage or without accepting the previous usage.