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blake 3:17
26th March 2014, 01:27
A question that's been on my mind a lot has been how do revolutionary leftists use our identities to promote the social changes we want to see?

First off, we do want to give the particular oppressed or exploited group a firm leadership role. Secondly, just because a people, class or sector has a particular leadership doesn't mean we need to automatically agree with whatever those leaderships say.

and Thirdly, and my actual point/question, what do people here think about using their identities to promote a politics of liberation?

As a long time activist in different movements, I have heard myself (and many others) say, "As a member of this group/community, I know..."

That can be as someone who has experienced particular forms of oppression or exploitation.

It can also be powerful when someone speaks on behalf of an issue, when that issue hasn't harmed them.

Per Levy
26th March 2014, 01:44
First off, we do want to give the particular oppressed or exploited group a firm leadership role. Secondly, just because a people, class or sector has a particular leadership doesn't mean we need to automatically agree with whatever those leaderships say.

so you want to give people leadership roles(over what exactly?), while at the same time not agreeing with the leadership you just, graciously, gave to those opressed people?

blake 3:17
26th March 2014, 03:29
Sorry the point wasn't very clear at all.

Just on the question of leadership, when you're coming as on outsider, it's a good idea to be respectful of what leadership is going on. I've been involved in solidarity work where there's a lot of disputes between the folks we've been supporting & it can be tricky to stay out of it.

OK I'll try to get to the point.

I suppose I'm interested in certain kinds of betrayals on the part of the oppressor (or that which would be seen as an oppressor on an essentialist basis). The immediate examples that come to mind are Jewish groups which are pro-Palestinian or an overwhelmingly White trade union group I was in that opposed anti-Black racism and immigrant bashing. I was at a demo one day and someone from the media asked me why I cared & I gave a stock Marxist answer & I've thought since there a chance to say something a bit more interesting than that. Was it really about class unity?

synthesis
26th March 2014, 04:22
I suppose I'm interested in certain kinds of betrayals on the part of the oppressor (or that which would be seen as an oppressor on an essentialist basis). The immediate examples that come to mind are Jewish groups which are pro-Palestinian or an overwhelmingly White trade union group I was in that opposed anti-Black racism and immigrant bashing. I was at a demo one day and someone from the media asked me why I cared & I gave a stock Marxist answer & I've thought since there a chance to say something a bit more interesting than that. Was it really about class unity?

I really wish I could figure out what the fuck it is you're saying here. Assistance?

The Garbage Disposal Unit
26th March 2014, 19:12
I think this is an interesting and complicated question.

That said, I think one can locate oneself socially without reproducing essentialist notions of identity. It's particularly hard in the context of a soundbite, and the way the bourgeois mass media reproduces essentialism(s), but I think this points more to a critique of the usefulness of bourgeois mass media to a radical project than it points to the "usefulness" of formulations in the vein of "I am X therefore know Y".

On the other hand, "My condition, X, has lead me to the conclusion that Y by Z path" is extremely useful, and I don't think should be shied away from. I guess in some ways it's a flimsy distinction, except that it serves, in a way, to preempt, "Well, we've found this other queer who is very excited to be joining the infantry."

blake 3:17
26th March 2014, 20:48
I suppose what I'm actually wrestling with how to propose an ethics of solidarity that can be communicated and acted on.

A fairly large number of people I know express their desires for social justice in the language of identity politics. I know bullies who do the same, and I know bullies who use the language of socialism or anarchism.

In doing practical activism, do any of you refer to yourselves in particular ways? as being part of a seemingly natural group?

blake 3:17
5th February 2015, 08:18
I think this is an interesting and complicated question.....
On the other hand, "My condition, X, has lead me to the conclusion that Y by Z path" is extremely useful, and I don't think should be shied away from. I guess in some ways it's a flimsy distinction, except that it serves, in a way, to preempt, "Well, we've found this other queer who is very excited to be joining the infantry."

I've come to think it's all flimsy. The slave masters can always find some one of whatever skin colour or sexuality etc to prop up their ideologies of fairness and equality.

I do think one must acknowledge essences,but on a strategic level of politics I'm more and more disturbed by it. Many clever idiots here in celebration of their of their anti Zionism have been apologists for the murders in Paris last month.

I found it very useful to read the long discussion/debate between Jean-Claude Milner and Alain Badiou. Milner comes down on the side of identity and apolegetics, Badiou is fierce in defending the commons.