Dutch Justice

[Y2A]

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_articl...9&story_id=3585 (http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=3585)


Disabled man, 71, arrested for killing armed robber

13 January 2004

AMSTERDAM - A 71-year-old disabled vehicle yard owner has been arrested for shooting and killing a man during an attempted armed robbery last month, but the businessman claims he acted in self-defence.

Cees Gardien, of Leidschendam, said via his lawyer on Monday that he would have been killed if he had not fired his weapon. But Gardien, the victim of three other robberies and nine burglaries, has been charged with manslaughter.

Defence lawyer Michaël Mantz is enraged that his client is still being detained, claiming that he had been surrounded by five dangerous criminals and had no alternative but to open fire. He said Gardien acted out of self defence and to protect his sick wife, Mien, newspaper De Telegraaf reported.

Suffering from throat cancer and confined almost permanently to a wheelchair, Gardien - who has owned a vehicle yard for almost 50 years - was confronted on the morning of 15 December last year by five people clad in balaclavas and armed with knives and guns.

Gardien has carried a gun since a robbery at his business in 2001 and claims he acted out of fear when he pulled the trigger last month. As the robbers made a dash for it, he escaped into his business premises and closed the burglar-proof roll shutters.

But the bullet is alleged to have hit illegal Turkish immigrant Yacup Yuruyucu - renowned for assaults, blackmail and threats - and he was found dead by a motorist later that morning. A knife was found next to his body.

Gardien claims he had been unaware that he'd fatally wounded the man and did not report the incident to police. He said he no longer trusted the police, did not want to be arrested and simply wanted to celebrate the festive season with his wife.

Police said they seized the murder weapon, an FN 7.65 calibre pistol, in the house of the accused about a week ago. Gardien remains in detention and faces a maximum jail term of 12 years.

But an acquaintance of the robbers has reportedly told detectives that the culprits have admitted that Gardien had not intended to kill anyone. The acquaintance also said the five robbers had intended to rob the man's safe.

The Public Prosecution Office (OM) in The Hague has refused to comment. Investigations into the shooting continue.

[Jesus Christ]

Im sorry but the title Dutch Justice just made me laugh lol, no offense, it just sounds like a really bad court show lol

[Y2A]

Originally posted by Jesus [email protected] 27 2004, 03:15 AM
Im sorry but the title Dutch Justice just made me laugh lol, no offense, it just sounds like a really bad court show lol
:lol:

BTW, why would I be offended??? I'm not dutch.

[Jesus Christ]

Yea but there are tons of people here who are gonna give me a lashing cuz what I just isnt "politically correct"
:lol:

like my new avatar?
lol

[Hoppe]

I am from the Netherlands and these things are very sad, and happen more often. He'll probably be convicted of unlawful possession of a firearm.

[redstar2000]

You may be surprised, Y2A, that there are quite a few lefties who would agree with you on this issue.

If I were attacked or threatened by five guys and had the means to blow their motherfucking heads off, I would cheerfully do so...and laugh afterwards in the knowledge that I had just reduced the world asshole population.

Armed self-defense by the working class is actually an integral part of real communism; it is bourgeois liberals who want to disarm the people.

They do this because then people, in their fear, will demand (or at least accept) an ever more draconian police state.

But wait...wasn't this a case of five poor guys attacking one rich guy?

Ah, I guess we can't agree after all...that nasty issue of class intrudes.

Bad things happening to rich people is ok with me.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Loknar]

well said red star.



I know american courts are messed up but when I hear a eurpean court rules on something i know that it is likely some BS issue.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2004, 05:59 PM
You may be surprised, Y2A, that there are quite a few lefties who would agree with you on this issue.

Yes, actually I did know that before I posted this. I just thought it was an interesting story and wished to share it with the posters. By the way, what does it matter if he was rich??? Did this make him deserve to get mugged by 5 people while in a wheelchair and suffering from cancer??? If you were walking in nyc and got mugged by a homeless man would it make it right because you were richer then him???

[Sabocat]

If you were walking in nyc and got mugged by a homeless man would it make it right because you were richer then him???

Probably.

I wouldn't like it, but I'd certainly understand it. Desperation makes people do desperate things. He definitely wouldn't deserve to be shot and killed for trying to survive.

[John Galt]

So the law is only for the rich?

[Sabocat]

Go do a census on the people in the prison system in the U$. I think you would be very hard pressed to find any "rich" people there.

A homeless guy steals 20 bucks from someone and deserves prison or death, but a guy like Ken Lay or the like bilks millions, steals from pensions etc, and they get to say they're sorry and pay a fine and continue on with their lives.

So you tell me. Who does the law favor?

[John Galt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 02:31 PM
A homeless guy steals 20 bucks from someone and deserves prison or death
So advocate reverse discrimination to "get even" with the rich?

[Sabocat]

So advocate reverse discrimination to "get even" with the rich?

How can it be perceived as "reverse discrimination" to have equal rights under the law?

[John Galt]

You are saying its ok for a poor person to rape and kill you, because they are poor.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 02:15 PM

If you were walking in nyc and got mugged by a homeless man would it make it right because you were richer then him???

Probably.

I wouldn't like it, but I'd certainly understand it. Desperation makes people do desperate things. He definitely wouldn't deserve to be shot and killed for trying to survive.
May I ask, have you ever lived in a bad neighborhood??? There are other ways out other then mugging people you know. It angers me when I hear people say this. Especially in first world countries. As if the only option is to rob people.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 28 2004, 02:31 PM
Go do a census on the people in the prison system in the U$. I think you would be very hard pressed to find any "rich" people there.

A homeless guy steals 20 bucks from someone and deserves prison or death, but a guy like Ken Lay or the like bilks millions, steals from pensions etc, and they get to say they're sorry and pay a fine and continue on with their lives.

So you tell me. Who does the law favor?
I actually agree with this statement. The law far to often favors the rich. But to say that someone poor can do it to "get even" is ridiculous and solves absolutely nothing.

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by John [email protected] 28 2004, 04:34 PM
You are saying its ok for a poor person to rape and kill you, because they are poor.
Funny that as far as I know there hasn't been any scientist who showed a causal relationship between poverty and crime.

[redstar2000]

By the way, what does it matter if he was rich???

That always matters, from the communist standpoint.

You see, in our view we (the people on the bottom) have been robbed by ruling classes for all of recorded history.

All of the wealth of the rich came from exploiting, directly or indirectly, an enormous number of the non-rich.

Therefore, when I say that "bad things happening to rich people is ok with me"...I'm expressing class hatred for the exploiters.

Now, it happens that there are people on the bottom who prey on others who are also at the bottom. They are "wannabe" rich bastards...if they had the chance, they'd exploit people as badly as any existing rich bastard.

As you might anticipate, my attitude is fuck them too! A poor guy who attempts to mug another poor guy is a piece of capitalist shit...even if he doesn't have a dime of capital.

But poor guys who mug rich guys...well, that's different.

(Note that being in a wheelchair and suffering from cancer are not relevant considerations. Poor people can't afford wheelchairs and usually die at too early an age to contract cancer.)

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The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Freiheitfuralle]

Crime cannot be judged within a class system. When an individuals rights are infringed upon, the victim has a right to self-defense. The fact that the victim was "rich" or well off does not justify the crime. Anyone who tries to blame this on capitalism has not bothered to educate themselves. Under capitalism the victim of a violent crime has the right to self-defense. period. The five muggers threatened the 71 year old cancer patient with guns and knives.
Ok so lets just say that the 71 year old man had threatened the five muggers w/ a gun or other weapon. Lets just say that they had shot the man in self-defense. The fact that the perpetrator was of a differentiating financial situation is completely irrelevant and it is absurd to try and justify any crime with the fact that the victim "had it coming". In fact I dont think putting this man in prison is ok or just under any system of gov. so this situation is truly fucked up.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Hoppe+Jan 28 2004, 05:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hoppe @ Jan 28 2004, 05:41 PM)
John [email protected] 28 2004, 04:34 PM
You are saying its ok for a poor person to rape and kill you, because they are poor.
Funny that as far as I know there hasn&#39;t been any scientist who showed a causal relationship between poverty and crime. [/b]
When did I say their wasnt?

You said that being poor gives them justification to break the law.


Why do two wrongs make a right?

[Sabocat]

May I ask, have you ever lived in a bad neighborhood??? There are other ways out other then mugging people you know. It angers me when I hear people say this. Especially in first world countries. As if the only option is to rob people.

I have lived in a bad neighborhood. The point I was trying to make, is if for example you take a guy that just lost his job, has run out of unemployment benefits, has 3 hungry kids and a wife at home, he will inevitably do whatever he has to do to provide for them or himself. When the alternative is starvation, robbing someone doesn&#39;t seem like that much of a stretch.


You are saying its ok for a poor person to rape and kill you, because they are poor.

No, I never said that. You did. I&#39;m curious as to how you made this leap. There is quite a difference in robbing someone so as to eat, and raping and killing.

[Hoppe]

Originally posted by John [email protected] 28 2004, 07:09 PM

When did I say their wasnt?

You said that being poor gives them justification to break the law.

Why do two wrongs make a right?
O, I was just expressing this fact, not refuting you in any way.

Most socialists/communists see robbery and theft as examples of the class-struggle so it&#39;s justified if a poor robs a rich man. Maybe you now understand what has caused the rise in crime since the sixties in Europe. ;)

[redstar2000]

Crime cannot be judged within a class system.

Communists "judge" everything "within a class system".

That&#39;s what we all live in&#33;

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A site about communist ideas