We need immigration in the western world. Lots of it.

[socialismwins]

I apologize if I'm mistaken, but I believe it was Horkheimer or Adorno from the Frankfurt school that initially made this argument.

Encouraging and fighting for mass immigration from the 'third world' into the western countries will destabilize the socio-political and cultural structure, hastening the final victory of the proletariat.

I'm not sure how popular this position is today, I'd be interested to see what people here think. Is it an effective strategy for achieving our end objective?

[Light of Lenin]

It's probably the most effective way to expose the Western Labor Aristocracy as a just a bunch of White Nationalists servants of imperialism.

[tallguy]

It's probably the most effective way to expose the Western Labor Aristocracy as a just a bunch of White Nationalists servants of imperialism.Well done for squeezing in as many vacuous, sound-bite words into one sentence as I think I have ever seen. Not that any of these words, in themselves, are vacuous you understand. They just seem to have taken on that quality when uttered by you.

[#FF0000]

I apologize if I'm mistaken, but I believe it was Horkheimer or Adorno from the Frankfurt school that initially made this argument.

Gonna need to see a source.


Encouraging and fighting for mass immigration from the 'third world' into the western countries will destabilize the socio-political and cultural structure, hastening the final victory of the proletariat.

I'm not sure how popular this position is today, I'd be interested to see what people here think. Is it an effective strategy for achieving our end objective?

lol, nah.

At the same time, we need to recognize that immigrants are, obviously, working class people, and we need to work with them and fight for them as well. They don't push wages down. Our bosses do.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Gonna need to see a source.



lol, nah.

At the same time, we need to recognize that immigrants are, obviously, working class people, and we need to work with them and fight for them as well. They don't push wages down. Our bosses do.

Well they are arguably used for the pushing down of wages. Of course, no serious communist would use this to propose the restriction of free movement of labour. CPB and other "national-socialists" and trade-union bureaucrats (occasionally) put forward this ridiculous view. We should realise, however, that the working class is an international class and that while we are against blacklegging but the solution to this is to organise immigrant workers in the communist and trade-union struggle so they can't be used for such divisive ends.

[Light of Lenin]

The White Nationalist Labor Lieutenants of Western imperialism know immigrant labor is a direct attack on their class collaborationist imperialist superwages. White Nationalist imperialist lackey Labor Bureaucrat fucks and the Labor Aristocracy they represent know their imperialist superwages depend on imperialism, and Third-World immigrant labor is a direct threat to it.

They have always known this. Almost the entire history of the American labor movement is one of old-fashioned White Nationalist racist bullshit. The Labor Aristocracy of the White Nation started forming unions in the first place to protect their social-status as ultra-privileged "workers."


The prospect of partitioning China elicited from Hobson the following economic appraisal: “The greater part of Western Europe might then assume the appearance and character already exhibited by tracts of country in the South of England, in the Riviera, and in the tourist-ridden or residential parts of Italy and Switzerland, little clusters of wealthy aristocrats drawing dividends and pensions from the Far East, with a somewhat larger group of professional retainers and tradesmen and a larger body of personal servants and workers in the transport trade and in the final stages of production of the more perishable goods: all the main arterial industries would have disappeared, the staple foods and semi-manufactures flowing in as tribute from Asia and Africa.... We have foreshadowed the possibility of even a larger alliance of Western states, a European federation of Great Powers which, so far from forwarding the cause of world civilisation, might introduce the gigantic peril of a Western parasitism, a group of advanced industrial nations, whose upper classes drew vast tribute from Asia and Africa, with which they supported great tame masses of retainers, no longer engaged in the staple industries of agriculture and manufacture, but kept in the performance of personal or minor industrial services under the control of a new financial aristocracy. Let those who would scout such a theory [he should have said: prospect] as undeserving of consideration examine the economic and social condition of districts in Southern England today which are already reduced to this condition, and reflect upon the vast extension of such a system which might be rendered feasible by the subjection of China to the economic control of similar groups of financiers, investors [rentiers] and political and business officials, draining the greatest potential reservoir of profit the world has ever known, in order to consume it in Europe. The situation is far too complex, the play of world forces far too incalculable, to render this or any other single interpretation of the future very probable; but the influences which govern the imperialism of Western Europe today are moving in this direction, and, unless counteracted or diverted, make towards such a consummation.”

Hobson, the social-liberal, fails to see that this “counteraction” can be offered only by the revolutionary proletariat and only in the form of a social revolution. But then he is a social-liberal! Nevertheless, as early as 1902 he had an excellent insight into the meaning and significance of a “United States of Europe” (be it said for the benefit of Trotsky the Kautskyite!) and of all that is now being glossed over by the hypocritical Kautskyites of various countries, namely, that the opportunists (social-chauvinists) are working hand in glove with the imperialist bourgeoisie precisely towards creating an imperialist Europe on the backs of Asia and Africa, and that objectively the opportunists are a section of the petty bourgeoisie and of a certain strata of the working class who have been bribed out of imperialist superprofits and converted to watchdogs of capitalism and corruptors of the labour movement.

[#FF0000]

The White Nationalist Labor Lieutenants of Western imperialism know immigrant labor is a direct attack on their class collaborationist imperialist superwages.

They're not, though. Wages have been falling for decades now and immigration isn't the reason.


Well they are arguably used for the pushing down of wages.

Arguably. The unemployed, the elderly, the young, and temp workers do as well, arguably. Of course we both know nobody rallies to get rid of those groups, though (except for the unemployed, kind of)

[Light of Lenin]

They're not, though. Wages have been falling for decades now and immigration isn't the reason.

Yet consumption (http://books.google.com/books?id=O-Zgx7jyv4AC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=%22Global+Wage+Scaling+and+Left+Ideology%22++%2 2this+essay%22&source=bl&ots=k5WaLE1pmm&sig=WNICQlM8pErKxxDGWjLANpPGyow&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w6soU4jFPIS30AHEkIDgBA&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Global%20Wage%20Scaling%20and%20Left%20Ideolo gy%22%20%20%22this%20essay%22&f=false) of the Western imperialist nations continues to rise, despite the Western economies having largely been converted to service economies that produce no surplus value.

[ArisVelouxiotis]

I believe that immigrats are the most revolutionary part of the working class because ussually they work in the harshest conditions and with fewer money than an average worker.

[#FF0000]

Yet consumption (http://books.google.com/books?id=O-Zgx7jyv4AC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=%22Global+Wage+Scaling+and+Left+Ideology%22++%2 2this+essay%22&source=bl&ots=k5WaLE1pmm&sig=WNICQlM8pErKxxDGWjLANpPGyow&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w6soU4jFPIS30AHEkIDgBA&ved=0CEEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Global%20Wage%20Scaling%20and%20Left%20Ideolo gy%22%20%20%22this%20essay%22&f=false) of the Western imperialist nations continues to rise, despite the Western economies having largely been converted to service economies that produce no surplus value.

Yeah, thanks to the proliferation of credit (read: debt). What's your point?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Yet mass migrations of people are usually in response to a calamity like a war or gutted economy.

This kind of argument though basically just strengthens the hand of actual white nationalists

[Light of Lenin]

Yeah, thanks to the proliferation of credit (read: debt). What's your point?

Except credit has nothing to do with anything. It is a smoke-screen you have thrown up. The purchasing power of American wages has increased. American 'workers' do even less work now than they did in the 1970s to purchase the same commodities.



Post (p. 24) observes that ‘[i]n the United States today, real wages for both union and non-union workers have fallen, and are about 11% below their 1973 level, despite strong growth beginning in the mid 1980s’. By measuring wages against GDP figures and reported profits, Post intends to convince his readership that the living standards of the US working class have been declining and that a renewed offensive against capital would entitle them to a greater share of the wealth they ostensibly create.

However, there are at least two problems with the idea that US wages have fallen. Firstly, whilst wages in the United States have indeed fallen since 1973 as a proportionate share of GDP, in real terms the poor in that country were better off in 1999 than they were in 1975. For example, Cox and Alm (1999) show that whereas in 1971 31.8% of all US households had air-conditioners, in 1994 49.6% of households below the poverty line had air-conditioners. These authors also demonstrate that the United States poor in 1999 had more refrigerators, dishwashers, clothes dryers, microwaves, televisions, college educations and personal computers than they did in 1971. Wages decidedly did not shrink, then, relative to the purchasing power necessary to consume these items. US economists Meyer and Sullivan (2011) have constructed a measure of consumption which challenges mainstream assessments of declining US living standards. They note that most income-based analyses of economic well-being in the United States do not reflect the full range of available household consumption resources such as, for example, food stamps, or lessened marginal tax rates….

Nor, indeed, did US incomes decline relative to the costs of those items necessary to the reproduction of the worker as such (the ‘value of labour power’, in Marxist terms). Thus, between 1970 and 1997, the real price of a food basket containing one pound of ground beef, one dozen eggs, three pounds of tomatoes, one dozen oranges, one pound of coffee, one pound of beans, half a gallon of milk, five pounds of sugar, one pound of bacon, one pound of lettuce, one pound of onions and one pound of bread fell so that it took 26% less of the workers’ time to buy it (ibid, pp. 40–41). (100-101)

[Os Cangaceiros]

despite the Western economies having largely been converted to service economies that produce no surplus value.

That's a myth. I'm not sure about other nations, but the USA still has a strong manufacturing capacity, especially in tech-intensive industries etc


Encouraging and fighting for mass immigration from the 'third world' into the western countries will destabilize the socio-political and cultural structure, hastening the final victory of the proletariat.

I think the bridge that hasn't been made yet is how destabilized socio-political/cultural structures leads to "the final victory of the proletariat".

[L.A.P.]

The purchasing power of American wages has increased. American 'workers' do even less work now than they did in the 1970s to purchase the same commodities.

this is such an absurd lie. i dont know how to emphasize enough that this is the opposite of reality

[tallguy]

.....The purchasing power of American wages has increased. American 'workers' do even less work now than they did in the 1970s to purchase the same commodities.This is quite simply factually incorrect. You have either posted this inaccuracy deliberately in order to further your larger agenda disingenuously or you have posted it because you haven't really got a clue what you are talking about.

[Alexios]

Obviously trolling.

[Light of Lenin]

This is quite simply factually incorrect. You have either posted this inaccuracy deliberately in order to further your larger agenda disingenuously or you have posted it because you haven't really got a clue what you are talking about.

The citation for the quotes Zak Cope provided to back up his statement is to economists BD Meyer and JX Sullivan's 2011 paper The Material Well-Being of the Poor and the Middle Class Since 1980 (http://www.aei.org/files/2011/10/25/Material-Well-Being-Poor-Middle-Class.pdf).

Parasites don't generally like their parasitism exposed. Especially not White Nationalist "Leftists" who think they're not getting the "full value" of their Labor Aristocratic imperialist superwages.

[#FF0000]

http://www.redletterchristians.org/wp-content/uploads/fox-news-poor-households-fridge.jpg

[synthesis]

Except credit has nothing to do with anything. It is a smoke-screen you have thrown up. The purchasing power of American wages has increased. American 'workers' do even less work now than they did in the 1970s to purchase the same commodities.

Of course you don't even consider the idea that it might just take less resources to produce these commodities due to advances in industrial technology. Can we get a restriction on this Third-Worldist? This is really the most ostensive case of the anti-working class nature of these sorts of politics I've seen on this forum so far.

[Per Levy]

I apologize if I'm mistaken, but I believe it was Horkheimer or Adorno from the Frankfurt school that initially made this argument.

Encouraging and fighting for mass immigration from the 'third world' into the western countries will destabilize the socio-political and cultural structure, hastening the final victory of the proletariat.

I'm not sure how popular this position is today, I'd be interested to see what people here think. Is it an effective strategy for achieving our end objective?

id love a source for that, since i had encounters with followers of the frankfurt school and i never came across someone who argued for something like that or even said anything about something like it. so i have my doubts that this is actually a thing.

and for this to work, as in, to be "the final victory of the proletariat" the immigrants had to be more revolutionary then the non-immigrant workers, wich just isnt the case.

as for "light of lenin" either one of the most insane third worldists ever on this site or just a troll. pick your poison, i had enough "discussions" with third worldists on this site and its always the same, so i wont even bother.

[synthesis]

What's funny is that this kind of rhetoric from LoL (lol), when you look at it, is really just an exaggerated version of the really hardcore national-liberation supporters here. I'm kind of stuck between not wanting to look passive-aggressive by not mentioning names, and not wanting to single anyone out, but hopefully people will see what I mean.

[Comrade Jacob]

I don't see how this reaches socialism but let's do it to piss of the white-nationalists.

[Light of Lenin]

Of course you don't even consider the idea that it might just take less resources to produce these commodities due to advances in industrial technology.

Another smoke-screen, as most of the commodities are not even made in the West. Even most products labeled "Made in America" are usually merely assembled in America.

To quote from Eduardo Galeano's Open Veins of Latin America:



Venezuela's Cerro Bolivar is so rich that its dirt is taken by U.S. Steel and loaded directly into the holds of U.S.-bound ships; its flanks betray the deep wounds that bulldozers are making in it. The company estimates that it contains some $8 billion worth of iron. In a single year, 1960, U.S. Steel and Bethlehem Steel realized a greater than 30 percent profit on their Venezuelan iron investment, and this profit equaled all the taxes paid the Venezuelan state in the decade since 1950. Since both firms sell the iron ore to their own steel mills in the United States, they have no interest in defending prices; on the contrary it suits them that the raw material should be as cheap as possible. The world price of iron, which fell sharply between 1958 and 1964, has been relatively stable since and remains so; meanwhile, the price of steel has continued to rise. Steel is produced in the world's wealthy centers, iron in the poor suburbs; steel pays "labor aristocracy" wages, iron mere subsistence wages.


Can we get a restriction on this Third-Worldist? This is really the most ostensive case of the anti-working class nature of these sorts of politics I've seen on this forum so far.The only people who hate the working class are White Nationalist imperialist Labor Aristocrats, who would do and say anything in the service of their own imperialists to protect their Labor Aristocracy wages.

Hence why immigration to the imperialist nations is a direct threat to the Labor Aristocracy. The White Nationalist "Left" hates it so much, because they see it as a betrayal of their bargain with their imperialist masters. Their imperialist masters are cheating on their deal. Nothing makes the White Nationalist Labor Bureaucrats more angry than breaking their informal "race" contract.

[tachosomoza]

Let them all in I say, changing demographics means that we get people who are easier to work with and are more receptive.

[Ali Ali Oxen Free]

Welp this thread was doomed to become a circle jerk from the start.

[Rusty Shackleford]

What's funny is that this kind of rhetoric from LoL (lol), when you look at it, is really just an exaggerated version of the really hardcore national-liberation supporters here. I'm kind of stuck between not wanting to look passive-aggressive by not mentioning names, and not wanting to single anyone out, but hopefully people will see what I mean.

I mean, this poster obviously is making some connections that shouldn't be made and ignoring some others.

People do have awkward beginnings to their political formation

[synthesis]

I mean, this poster obviously is making some connections that shouldn't be made and ignoring some others.

People do have awkward beginnings to their political formation

I don't think it's that innocent. It's a calculated dismissal of a certain segment of the Western working class that is "privileged" in favor of cross-class collaboration with groups that aren't. (Hence the term "privilege theory," also etymologically rooted in Maoist academia and equally useless as a means of addressing discrimination in the left and among society as a whole.)

[#FF0000]

Welp this thread was doomed to become a circle jerk from the start.

Uh, what do you mean? There's a discussion happening here.