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Light of Lenin
17th March 2014, 20:45
I was watching the Soviet film Solaris (1972) the other day. The film is referred to by some as one of the greatest science fiction films ever, which is probably why imperialist Hollywood created their own version in 2002.

The idea of extra-terrestrial intelligence brings up the question posed by the Fermi paradox. If intelligent life is common in the galaxy, why isn't the galaxy already filled up by some spacefaring civilization? Or, at least, filled with some civilization's Von Neumann probes (or even multiple different probes from multiple alien civilizations). None of this requires even positing faster than light travel is possible. If life is common in the universe and evolution tends to create intelligent life capable of developing spacefaring technology, then the galaxy should already be colonized and/or filled with Von Newmann probes. However, it doesn't appear to be the case that it is.

UFO conspiracy-theorists might beg to differ. Whether or not they are correct (and they probably are not), there are some interesting thought experiments that might be possible out of it.

For instance, if Earth never has a global communist revolution (and perhaps even if it were to), yet managed to become a spacefaring civilization, it is entirely conceivable that Earth would become a galactic imperialist power. The imperialist Hollywood film Avatar depicts such a scenario. The Earth military-industrial complex would gladly exterminate primitive civilizations that could not fight back, much like what the Euro-Settlers did to the original inhabitants of the North American continent.

Given what would be predictable if humanity were to become a spacefaring civilization before the advent of communist revolution (and possibly even if), there should be no reason to assume any alien civilization would act much differently. The first alien civilization to develop spacefaring technology would find themselves in the scenario seen in the imperialist Hollywood TV show Firefly; confronted with a large, mostly empty galaxy just waiting for Settlers to arrive.

One could imagine it being the case that Earth itself is a colony of some extra-terrestrial imperialist power as a potential solution to the Fermi paradox. This scenario is explored in the imperialist Hollywood film They Live. In They Live, Earth is ruled by what appears to be a single alien civilization (all the aliens appear to be the same species). Facilitating this rule is an Earth comprador class, which the film refers to as the Power Elite (presumably a term taken from C. Wright Mills' book The Power Elite). It is not clear what role the communist countries were playing within the movie. While the Earth Liberation forces are portrayed as communists by the alien-controlled mass media (in order to hurt their cause), it is highly unlikely John Carpenter envisioned the USSR and other communist countries as playing an independent role against the alien imperialists.

But it could be the case they were.

Given an extra-terrestrial imperialist power that prefers to work with comprador proxies rather than to directly and openly rule (perhaps they have had bad luck with this method in their imperialist past, leading to a galactic preference for neo-colonial methods), it is entirely conceivable that they would gain control over some countries and not others (at least initially). It is also possible that the countries not under the imperialist alien control are entirely unaware of the nature of the countries who are controlled by the alien imperialists, and instead the ideological differences between countries under alien occupation and those that aren't is just a facade created by the alien imperialists in order to hide the true nature of the conflict.

One of the scenes of They Live involves two of the protagonists discussing how long Earth (or some section of it) has been under alien imperialist occupation. Neither protagonist knows the answer, nor does any scene in the film hint at an answer to this question. It seems the two protagonists don't know what to believe about anything at all at that point. It could be conceivable that everything they were taught is a lie created by the aliens for some purpose or other.

It could be the case that alien imperialist control of Earth (or some section of it) happened fairly recently in Earth's history. History would remain largely intact from this angel. The imperialist aliens would then operate largely within the institutional frameworks already put in place before their arrival, which seems compatible with the film.

It could also be the case that alien imperialist control extends centuries or even millennia in the past. This scenario would present a lot of complications, as it would lead to questioning if certain historical events were actually directed by the alien imperialists and their comprador proxies (knowingly or unknowingly). For instance, was the American Civil War orchestrated by alien imperialists? Why and for what purpose would they do that? Did the alien imperialists create Christianity or Islam (or any religion, for that matter)? World World 1? World War 2? If so, it might be explainable via assuming they were implementing a divide and conquer strategy, though that would seem to suggest the alien imperialist takeover is fairly recent.

Such questions could be asked for literally any historical event of any importance. One could imagine a scene in a They Live 2, where Earth Liberation forces are sitting around discussing such speculative questions amongst themselves. But one event comes to mind of being of particular importance: the October Revolution.

Assuming Earth (or some parts of it) was already under alien imperialist control before 1917, the October Revolution itself would either be directed or not directed by the aliens. If not directed by the imperialist aliens, it would represent a revolution against the imperialist aliens (whether knowingly or unknowingly by the Bolsheviks). Unless of course, one assumes Tsarist Russia was not under their control (which could hypothetically be the case). However, the further back in time the imperialist alien occupation goes, the less and less likely this could be the case. Perhaps if the imperialist aliens got to Earth around 1880, Tsarist Russia might not yet have come under its influence. This seems less and less likely the further back in time one goes, however. If the imperialist aliens arrived at around the year 300 CE, it is difficult to imagine their control not extending to all Earth after 1700 years.

It could also be the case that the October Revolution was directed by the imperialist aliens. This scenario presents all kinds of difficulties though. Exactly why would the imperialist aliens instigate a communist revolution? This scenario makes less sense if one assumes complete alien control over Earth already by 1917, and would seem to suggest WW1 was not directed by the imperialist aliens (why instigate both WW1 and the October Revolution? No good imperialistic reason comes to my mind).

Much of 19th and 20th century history makes little sense assuming nearly total control of events by alien imperialists. Perhaps, as the movie Solaris suggests, the motives of the alien imperialists would be unknowable and/or seemingly irrational by our ways of thinking. But such a case doesn't make for any interesting thought experiments. But I would suggest, that if alien imperialists exist, along the lines of They Live or David Icke's Reptoids, and that they act rationally and in ways that we would expect imperialist powers to act, 20th century history in particular represents either a rupture of their control, or the beginning of their takeover.

Anglo-Saxon Philistine
17th March 2014, 21:05
I think this neatly demonstrates why the Third-Worldist and generally "orthodox" Maoist theory of imperialism as a primary contradiction doesn't make sense - suddenly even Imperial Russia would become "progressive" if under attack, overt or covert, of hypothetical aliens.

By the way, the movie version of Solaris - the original one that wasn't shit - deviates from Lem's book a lot. It's an interesting film, but the original book is much more interesting, in my humble opinion. The alien presented in Solaris couldn't be an imperialist force because such notions are probably completely alien to it.

ArisVelouxiotis
17th March 2014, 21:16
Hate to be that guy but "communist countries"?Seriously?I'm assuming you mean countries under the communist party then ok.
Interesting scenarios though I have to admit.So would you recommend "They Live"?

Light of Lenin
17th March 2014, 21:19
I think this neatly demonstrates why the Third-Worldist and generally "orthodox" Maoist theory of imperialism as a primary contradiction doesn't make sense - suddenly even Imperial Russia would become "progressive" if under attack, overt or covert, of hypothetical aliens.

Why do you say that? Exactly what connection does Lenin's theory of imperialism have to do with supporting Imperial Russia against hypothetical aliens seeking to control all of Earth?

Psycho P and the Freight Train
17th March 2014, 21:29
My take on aliens. I know this sort of deviates away from the imperialism discussion, but…

First of all, for aliens to reach Earth, they MUST be more advanced than us. This is because there are no alien civilizations on planets within a distance that could be reached without gaining the ability to bend the space-time continuum (faster than light travel). So, seeing as they will be more advanced than us, one of two things will happen.

Scenario 1 (most likely scenario): The aliens will see humans as a disease and a plague upon the earth, and a liability. Why should they allow us to live when we are destroying the planet and each other? We would be seen as a liability to them, and they would purge us. We would be seen as no different than parasites, infecting an innocent host.

Scenario 2: If the aliens are so advanced to the point of achieving faster-than-light travel, it is likely that they would be more of a peaceful society, living in coexistence. Basically, they would have achieved their version of communism. The reason for this is because there is no way a civilization can sustain itself if it takes on the whole Ayn Rand mindset. Weapons would be hoarded and eventually would destroy themselves. Which could easily happen to us here on earth. So, since these aliens would have a society of peaceful coexistence, they would most likely take over the earth, but for the benefit of humanity. They would teach us, disarm our nukes, and show us the secrets they've learned to maintain a sustainable civilization in harmony with the planet and the universe. In fact, they would propel us into communism without us having to do anything but learn and be "reprogrammed."

Xena Warrior Proletarian
17th March 2014, 21:42
My take on aliens. I know this sort of deviates away from the imperialism discussion, but…

First of all, for aliens to reach Earth, they MUST be more advanced than us. This is because there are no alien civilizations on planets within a distance that could be reached without gaining the ability to bend the space-time continuum (faster than light travel). So, seeing as they will be more advanced than us, one of two things will happen.

Scenario 1 (most likely scenario): The aliens will see humans as a disease and a plague upon the earth, and a liability. Why should they allow us to live when we are destroying the planet and each other? We would be seen as a liability to them, and they would purge us. We would be seen as no different than parasites, infecting an innocent host.

Scenario 2: If the aliens are so advanced to the point of achieving faster-than-light travel, it is likely that they would be more of a peaceful society, living in coexistence. Basically, they would have achieved their version of communism. The reason for this is because there is no way a civilization can sustain itself if it takes on the whole Ayn Rand mindset. Weapons would be hoarded and eventually would destroy themselves. Which could easily happen to us here on earth. So, since these aliens would have a society of peaceful coexistence, they would most likely take over the earth, but for the benefit of humanity. They would teach us, disarm our nukes, and show us the secrets they've learned to maintain a sustainable civilization in harmony with the planet and the universe. In fact, they would propel us into communism without us having to do anything but learn and be "reprogrammed."

Where do I sign up for option two?

Although to be honest I would be just as happy being killed knowing that there is an, albeit alien, communistic Eco-terrorist style society wanting to purge the planet of the filthy products of capitalism :) it would make me smile before being killed.

This kind of poses the question - if earth was destroyed by imperialist squabbling, would it be enough to know that ALIENS had achieved peace and communism, that is to say, would YOU be satisfied in the final seconds of your life if you knew this?

Light of Lenin
17th March 2014, 22:05
First of all, for aliens to reach Earth, they MUST be more advanced than us. This is because there are no alien civilizations on planets within a distance that could be reached without gaining the ability to bend the space-time continuum (faster than light travel).This isn't true. Without faster than light travel, it only means the colonization effort would take a few hundred thousand years to complete. The galaxy should already be filled up with some alien species, given the age of the galaxy.

Most of the solutions to the Fermi paradox involve either all potentially spacefaring civilizations destroying themselves before the invention of Von Neumann probes (because even if a single alien civilization developed them and launched the probes before destroying themselves, the galaxy would still be full of their probes running on auto-pilot, even if the aliens that created them are long dead), or speculate that intelligent life capable of developing spacefaring technology is exceedingly rare (meaning, would we be the first to do it in this galaxy (if we survive that long)).

Tenka
17th March 2014, 22:08
I think the aliens would crack our heads open like coconuts and drink our delicious brain-soup. Rather, that is what I would like to think, but it is terribly anthropocentric--to suppose aliens would want to eat any part of us!

And my apologies to Light of Lenin: I stopped being able to tolerate the OP when about three or four paragraphs remained.

Comrade Jacob
17th March 2014, 22:09
Aliens must exist, not because I think they visited us but because of the sheer scale of the universe.

Psycho P and the Freight Train
17th March 2014, 22:09
This isn't true. Without faster than light travel, it only means the colonization effort would take a few hundred thousand years to complete. The galaxy should already be filled up with some alien species, given the age of the galaxy.

Most of the solutions to the Fermi paradox involve either all potentially spacefaring civilizations destroying themselves before the invention of Von Neumann probes (because even if a single alien civilization developed them and launched the probes before destroying themselves, the galaxy would still be full of their probes running on auto-pilot, even if the aliens that created them are long dead), or speculate that intelligent life capable of developing spacefaring technology is exceedingly rare (meaning, would we be the first to do it in this galaxy (if we survive that long)).

I disagree. The universe is either infinite or finite to the point of incomprehensible area. Without faster-than-light travel, how could anyone colonize? Are you saying they would simply spread from planet to planet until it got closer to Earth's proximity? Because that would take millions of years. The universe is big as fuck.

Loony Le Fist
17th March 2014, 22:20
I would say one of the most likely scenarios is that aliens that advanced are likely to ignore us or even not understand humans. Even here on earth we find it close to impossible to communicate with other animals. Aliens that advanced would probably see us at best as we see chimpanzees.

Loony Le Fist
17th March 2014, 22:21
...
Because that would take millions of years. The universe is big as fuck.

It would. But we must also consider the universe is old as fuck too. :grin:

khad
17th March 2014, 22:22
You should watch the good version of Solaris

PSEGTBBHqgw

Light of Lenin
17th March 2014, 22:45
The universe is either infinite or finite to the point of incomprehensible area.

Our galaxy is the reference frame, not the entire universe.


Without faster-than-light travel, how could anyone colonize?

With ships that travel at some significant fraction of the speed of light.


Are you saying they would simply spread from planet to planet until it got closer to Earth's proximity?

No. I'm saying the entire galaxy should already be filled with them.


Because that would take millions of years.

It would probably only take several hundred thousand years. Even if it did take a few millions years, why isn't the galaxy already filled?

Redistribute the Rep
17th March 2014, 23:39
Well, according to cosmologist James Annis our galaxy used to be in a period of high frequency gamma bursts but is now entering a period where the gamma bursts are lowering in frequency. Gamma ray bursts are extremely powerful and have the ability to completely destroy all life on a planet, disrupting its path to intelligent life. Given that these were more frequent in the past, it could be a possible solution to the Fermi Paradox.

Here's some other interesting ones : http://io9.com/11-of-the-weirdest-solutions-to-the-fermi-paradox-456850746

Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages
17th March 2014, 23:49
Why are we assuming that an alien species would feel the need to spread beyond its own world? Who is to say aliens would even be interested in meeting other life? Even when people try to not do it, they always end up in a star trek universe where the aliens are just humans with slight cosmetic differences. Humans want to meet other life, humans want to spread to other worlds, there is no reason to believe that this is a universal desire.

socialismwins
18th March 2014, 00:26
If an advanced alien civilization exists, I just hope that they have surpassed capitalism. Otherwise, we're all fucked.

Red Commissar
18th March 2014, 07:26
There's some nuttier stuff that goes back further than involvement in world events- the "ancient astronauts" deal and other stuff along those lines (Chariot of the Gods) pretty much is just that. That inspired the frequently used meme a few years back

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/158/326/9148130.jpg

I don't really care much for that, it's an interesting read and maybe inspiration for some fiction, but it is not science. This is along with those that go back further like directed panspermia by advanced aliens- "seeding" the universe with life. Both of these are pretty frequently used in sci-fi to the point it has almost become a cliche eg. idea of an advanced, typically extinct ancient civilization that basically created life and gave rise to all the other civilizations.

I remember talking to someone about this once randomly and they suggested that due to the distances involved, that possible intelligent life elsewhere might still be seeing Earth in its primordial state rather than as it is now and thus probably not all that desirable of a destination among other many planets. This is probably an oversimplification though.

It's been a problem though, when I was younger (like under 10) I'd always thought about aliens but growing up and getting more educated I've become more pessimistic about that. With only suggestions of where life might be found and the difficulty of finding earth-like planets (at the present technology has only discovered a ton of gas planets and a handful of solid planets like Gliese 581c that we can only guess about). Hopefully this is just the limitations of current technology.

I'd be grateful if we could find planets hosting (or hosted) life, ideally some sort of sustained ecosystem, even if it's not "intelligent" as we conceive it. Heck, even microbial life would be a great find- this is why researchers have focused a lot on certain extremophile archaea in undersea vents and other harsh environments. I'd even settle for observation of self-replicating RNA as has been hypothesized for the origin of life- abiogenesis- as an "RNA World" of chemical reactions ~3.5-3.7 billion years ago that gave way to the beginning of "life" as we know it (http://www.nature.com/horizon/rna/background/images/ribozyme_f1.jpg). Of course, we might find life that isn't like ours- based on carbon or utilizing DNA/RNA as reservoir of information. Otherwise, the idea that this planet is one of the few, if not only planet of its kind hosting some form of life, even in its loosest conception, is pretty depressing to me.

Q
18th March 2014, 14:19
The idea of extra-terrestrial intelligence brings up the question posed by the Fermi paradox. If intelligent life is common in the galaxy, why isn't the galaxy already filled up by some spacefaring civilization? Or, at least, filled with some civilization's Von Neumann probes (or even multiple different probes from multiple alien civilizations). None of this requires even positing faster than light travel is possible. If life is common in the universe and evolution tends to create intelligent life capable of developing spacefaring technology, then the galaxy should already be colonized and/or filled with Von Newmann probes. However, it doesn't appear to be the case that it is.
There is another possibility I posted last year in a similar thread:


There is quite a common conception that aliens might be ahead of us, technologically, by a few centuries or millennia. This is quite silly.

This is quite an instructive little movie on geological era's (http://glencoe.mcgraw-hill.com/olcweb/cgi/pluginpop.cgi?it=swf::550::400::/sites/dl/free/0078802849/383925/CH14_Visualising_the_Geologic_Time_scale.swf::Visu alizing%20the%20Geologic%20Time%20Scale). Of the 4.6 billion years that the Earth has been around, only in the last 0.1 million years modern humans have been here.

To visualise this timescale spatially, you can compare it with a skyscraper. Take the Burj Khalifa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Khalifa), with 829.8 m the tallest skyscraper in the world since 2010. Of all that enormous hight, humans would only have existed in the upper 2 cm of the building. The oldest civilisations start in the upper 1 mm.

So, reasoning from this highly unlikely chance that any alien civilisation is even remotely near us technologically speaking (a single millimeter in our Burj Khalifa example represents 5,500 years), we can safely assume that most aliens are either bacteria or so far advanced that they're god-like to us.

ArisVelouxiotis
18th March 2014, 14:36
There is another possibility I posted last year in a similar thread:

Sorry wouldn't that be a +1 for "advanced aliens"?Because humans have only been aroud very few years.So an advanced alien civillization could exist if they started earlier.

Anglo-Saxon Philistine
18th March 2014, 14:41
Why do you say that? Exactly what connection does Lenin's theory of imperialism have to do with supporting Imperial Russia against hypothetical aliens seeking to control all of Earth?

Nothing. But then again, I wasn't talking about Lenin's description of imperialism, but the theory, due to Maoists after the split with the PPSh, that imperialist exploitation is the primary contradiction in the world, and that states as diverse as theocratic-bourgeois Iran and nationalist-bourgeois Egypt were "progressive" for "standing up to imperialists". I mentioned this because you seem to treat imperialist exploitation as the only possible contradiction between hypothetical aliens and Earth, and divide states not according to their class basis but their relation to the hypothetical alien imperialists.

Light of Lenin
18th March 2014, 21:45
Why are we assuming that an alien species would feel the need to spread beyond its own world?

It only takes one alien civilization with the desire to do it to fill up the galaxy.

Light of Lenin
18th March 2014, 21:49
Nothing. But then again, I wasn't talking about Lenin's description of imperialism

You mean this one:


The prospect of partitioning China elicited from Hobson the following economic appraisal: “The greater part of Western Europe might then assume the appearance and character already exhibited by tracts of country in the South of England, in the Riviera, and in the tourist-ridden or residential parts of Italy and Switzerland, little clusters of wealthy aristocrats drawing dividends and pensions from the Far East, with a somewhat larger group of professional retainers and tradesmen and a larger body of personal servants and workers in the transport trade and in the final stages of production of the more perishable goods: all the main arterial industries would have disappeared, the staple foods and semi-manufactures flowing in as tribute from Asia and Africa.... We have foreshadowed the possibility of even a larger alliance of Western states, a European federation of Great Powers which, so far from forwarding the cause of world civilisation, might introduce the gigantic peril of a Western parasitism, a group of advanced industrial nations, whose upper classes drew vast tribute from Asia and Africa, with which they supported great tame masses of retainers, no longer engaged in the staple industries of agriculture and manufacture, but kept in the performance of personal or minor industrial services under the control of a new financial aristocracy. Let those who would scout such a theory [he should have said: prospect] as undeserving of consideration examine the economic and social condition of districts in Southern England today which are already reduced to this condition, and reflect upon the vast extension of such a system which might be rendered feasible by the subjection of China to the economic control of similar groups of financiers, investors [rentiers] and political and business officials, draining the greatest potential reservoir of profit the world has ever known, in order to consume it in Europe. The situation is far too complex, the play of world forces far too incalculable, to render this or any other single interpretation of the future very probable; but the influences which govern the imperialism of Western Europe today are moving in this direction, and, unless counteracted or diverted, make towards such a consummation.”

Hobson, the social-liberal, fails to see that this “counteraction” can be offered only by the revolutionary proletariat and only in the form of a social revolution. But then he is a social-liberal! Nevertheless, as early as 1902 he had an excellent insight into the meaning and significance of a “United States of Europe” (be it said for the benefit of Trotsky the Kautskyite!) and of all that is now being glossed over by the hypocritical Kautskyites of various countries, namely, that the opportunists (social-chauvinists) are working hand in glove with the imperialist bourgeoisie precisely towards creating an imperialist Europe on the backs of Asia and Africa, and that objectively the opportunists are a section of the petty bourgeoisie and of a certain strata of the working class who have been bribed out of imperialist superprofits and converted to watchdogs of capitalism and corruptors of the labour movement.



I mentioned this because you seem to treat imperialist exploitation as the only possible contradiction between hypothetical aliens and Earth, and divide states not according to their class basis but their relation to the hypothetical alien imperialists.

So you think it would be worth pondering siding with alien imperialists against some sections of humanity? lmao

Is it any wonder Trotskyism is only popular amongst the tiny "Left" in the imperialist West?