Capitalist, get your facts right

[Moskitto]

Here's some extracts from Che's book, Guerilla warfare. Like I destroyed you claim that everyone in Cuba is a slave with the webpage for Fairtrade Orange Juice sales I likewise destroy your claims that Che would have supported the WTC attacks.

"Acts of sabotage are very important. It is necessary to distinguish clearly between sabotage, a revolutionary and highly effective method of warfare, and terrorism, a measure that is generally ineffective and in-discriminate in its results, since it often makes victims of innocent people and destroys a large number of lives that would be valuable to the revolution."

Does Che like Terrorism? NO

"Terrorism should be considered a valuable tactic when it is used to put to death some noted leader of the oppressing forces well known for his cruelty, his efficiency in repression, or other quality that makes his elimination useful. But the killing of persons of small importance is never advisable, since it brings on an increase of reprisals, including deaths."

Did the WTC kill a noted leader of the oppressor? NO, would Che have supported it? NO

"There is one point very much in controversy in Opinions about terrorism. Many consider that its use, by provoking police oppression, hinders all more or less legal or semiclandestine contact with the masses and makes impossible unification for actions that will be necessary at a critical moment. This is correct; but it also happens that in a civil war the repression by the governmental power in certain towns is already so great that, in fact, every type of legal action is suppressed already, and any action of the masses that is not supported by arms is impossible."

Che says that Terrorism closes the door for all legal means of liberation

"Assaults and terrorism in indiscriminate form should not be employed. More preferable is effort directed at large concentrations of people in whom the revolutionary idea can be planted and nurtured, so that at a critical moment they can be mobilized and with the help of the armed forces contribute to a favorable balance on the side of the revolution."

Terrorism should not be used. So he says

"Sabotage has nothing to do with terrorism; terrorism and personal assaults are entirely different tactics. We sincerely believe that terrorism is of negative value, that it by no means produces the desired effects, that it can turn a people against a revolutionary movement, and that it can bring a loss of lives to its agents out of proportion to what it produces."

Terrorism, Turns people against a revolutionarry movement, Che wouldn't have supported the WTC attacks.

The ball is in your court, Please use Quotes because otherwise, you look like a fool.

Here's the website for more info http://www.geocities.com/redencyclopedia/guevara.htm

[Freiheit]

there are three possible reasons why capitalists is here:

1. he wants to convince us and make us to capitalists
2. he wants to bug us
3. he likes discussion

i support number three, and a little bit of number two

[Capitalist]

I want to preserve the true image of Che Guevara. Not this phony "Jesus Christ" revolutionary bullshit image.

"You cannot be for the revolution and be against the Cuban Communist Party" - Che Guevara

Moskitto, Actions are stronger than words.

Unlike us, Che was a brave man of action not just words!

Che Guevara shot Cuban peasants (those who did not want to join the revolution) in the Sierra Maestra

Che Guevara (An Argentinean) oversaw the Tribunals that sent 550 Cubans to the firing squad . These killings against supporters of the old regime, some of whom had been implicated in torture and murder, was extended in 1960 to those in the working class movement who simply criticized the Castro regime.

Che Guevara was involved in the close down of the free press in Cuba, including the anarchists and anarcho-syndicalists press, closed down and many militants were thrown in prison.

In 1962, Che Guevara oversaw the banning of the Trotskyists and the imprisonment and execution of their militants.

Che Guevara helped set up a secret police, the C-2 and had a key role in creating the Committees for the Defense of the Revolution (CDRs), which are locally and regionally based bodies for spying on and controlling the Cuban population.

Che was the main link, indeed the architect, of relations between Cuba and the Soviet Union. The nuclear missile deal, which almost resulted in a nuclear war in 1962, was engineered by Che at the Cuban end.

By 1963, Che had realized that Russian Stalinism was a shambles after a visit to Russia where he saw the conditions of the majority of the people, this after "Soviet-style planning" in the Cuban economy had been pushed through by him. Instead of coming to some libertarian critique of Stalinism, he embraced Chinese Stalinism (Tibetan Invaders).

Fidel was now obsessed with saving the Cuban economy, himself arguing for appeasement. Against this, Che talked about spreading armed struggle through Latin America, if necessary using nuclear war to help this come about!

Friendship between Fidel & Guevara began to sour - on this basis that Che left Cuba.

He went to the Congo, where he worked with the Congolese Liberation Army, supported by the Chinese Stalinists. This was a shambles of a campaign, and Che ended up isolated with many of his band dead. Despite this, Che still believed in guerrilla struggle waged by a tiny armed minority. His final, fatal, campaign was in Bolivia.

Basing himself once more on old Castroist strategies, he failed to relate to the industrial working class. The Bolivian working class, and especially the tin miners, had a recent record of militancy and class-consciousness. The peasants, on the other hand, among whom Che hoped to create an armed insurrection, had been demobilized by the land reforms of 1952. So, Che was unable to relate to either workers or peasants. The local Communist Party failed to support him. Robbed of support, Che was surrounded in the Andean foothills, captured and executed.

Yes, Che was very brave physically. Yes, he refused the privilege and luxury granted to other leaders of Castro's Cuba, taking an average wage and working hard in his various government jobs. But many militarists, fascists and religious fanatics share these characteristics of bravery and self-sacrifice. Che's good looks and 'martyr's' death turned him into an icon, an icon duly exploited by all those wanting to turn a fast buck selling 'revolutionary' chic.

Che may look like the archetypal romantic revolutionary. In reality he was a tool of the Stalinist power blocs and a partisan of nuclear war. His attitudes and actions reveal him to be no friend of the working masses, whether they be workers or peasants.

Was Che a leader?

Yes!

Was he a leader that moved his people forward?

No.

Not all leaders lead forward

Che Guevara
Malcom X
Bin Laden
Fidel Castro
Sadamm Hussein
Mussolini
Lenin
Stalin
Hitler - ALL WERE LEADERS

Black Panthers
Jihad
Al Qaeda
IRA - ALL ARE TERRORIST GROUPS THAT ADMIRE CHE GUEVARA

Che Guevara would have supported those Sept 11 attacks.

2 Attacks on American Capitalism

1 Attack on American Imperialism

20 "American Oppressed Foreigners" - Kill over 3000 American Capitalists and Military Personnel.

Che Guevara's greatest enemy = USA Capitalism & Imperialism

You must understand the WHOLE man - not just one side.

[Guest]

Excellent post Capitalist.

I might also point out that in all of the quotes that Moskitto provided, Che denounces terrorism not because it is the killing of innocents, but because it is bad PR.

[Moskitto]

since it often makes victims of innocent people

[flames of the flag]

capitalist tell me some web site where this type of info is available

Also I think you should start your own web site if you want to bash che
I for one think that the world is fucked and is about due for a revolution. Che represents the ability to start a revolution and is therefore cool. so don't talk about him like he's some kinda terrorist

[Jurhael]

Who here says that Che was perfect? No one, that's who!

[libereco]

Black Panthers
Jihad
Al Qaeda
IRA - ALL ARE TERRORIST GROUPS THAT ADMIRE CHE GUEVARA

you just called the Black Panther Party terrorists?

do you even know what terrorism is? probably not, or you wouldn't say stuff like that.

if anything many black panther party members were suffering under state terrorism (yes it exists).

the black panther party was so fucking legal, they carried lawbooks (or whatever) around with them when they patroled the police men, because those didn't follow the laws.

[Guest]

"a measure that is generally ineffective and in-discriminate in its results, since it often makes victims of innocent people and destroys a large number of lives that would be valuable to the revolution."

According to Che, the killing of innocents in terrorism isn't bad, it's just not efficient. Don't use partial quotes, Moskitto, it's a nasty habit to get into.

[RedCeltic]

I suppose I could say I admire some aspects of Che... his willingness to give up a prosperous career to fight for what he thought was right... I can't say I agree with how he went about it... as I don't belive in a violent revolution.

I'm here because I'm a Socailist... however I would say I disagree with many aspects of Che and Communism.


My politics are more like those of:
Eugene Victor Debs
Norman Thomas
Martin Luther King Jr.
Michael Harrington ( Democratic Socialists of America)
David McReynolds (Socialist Party USA)
Woody Guthrie (Folk Singer)
Robert Kennedy
Emma Goldman
John Steinbeck
Upton Sinclaire
J.C. Sarte

[Valkyrie]

The Cuban revolution would have been a peacful non-violent one had Battista left before it started rather than at the end.

[ARKANS TIGER]

Great post..no question about it..but one must understand that we live in different times and have been de-sentisized to the pre vietnam war era of revolution..for the most part students arent down with protests and sit ins..being a college student i know most of us r interested in just getting out of college and getting a job. we take Che's words today and we see them as horrific..where 30 years ago they were a source of inspiration. too bad its gotten to this but fuck it..its just (d)evolution

[Freiheit]

if che would be in cuba now, he wouldnt
like it.
he was a great man.
and no one here compares him with jesus.
there are many arguments against him and
as many for him.
but all your 'great' leader like washington etc.
the fought a war killed ppl and said some bull
shit as well.

[Moskitto]

Quote: from RedCeltic on 4:45 am on Dec. 22, 2001
I suppose I could say I admire some aspects of Che... his willingness to give up a prosperous career to fight for what he thought was right... I can't say I agree with how he went about it... as I don't belive in a violent revolution.

I'm here because I'm a Socailist... however I would say I disagree with many aspects of Che and Communism.


My politics are more like those of:
Eugene Victor Debs
Norman Thomas
Martin Luther King Jr.
Michael Harrington ( Democratic Socialists of America)
David McReynolds (Socialist Party USA)
Woody Guthrie (Folk Singer)
Robert Kennedy
Emma Goldman
John Steinbeck
Upton Sinclaire
J.C. Sarte


That's precisely why I came here. So I could talk to other socialists and communists. It just happens that they like Che.

I like Rosa Luxemburg more than Che anyway.

[el che1220]

Capitalist....as I said it once....terrorism is only a matter of perspective....and people who effectively make terrorist action will never admit that what they did was terrorrism...
First of all..terrorism isn't a matter of number of deaths...second...many events could be compared to terrorism...like Hiroshima...100'000 people dead...mostly civilians...but of course..you'll tell me..it wasn't terrorism, it was an action of war---but it doesn't erase the fact that the essence of that action was aimed to scare people, to disrupt the gvt...and it worked.....
any country would never admit to having commited terrorist action, but now forget about being american, and just consider the essence of that fact....see--I consider that any action aimed to kill civilians is a terrorist action...so in my opinion, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, and many more....were terrorism of state---now I'm aware that civilians get killed in wars...but I can't stand peple denying that Hiroshima wasn't a terrorist act whereas the WTC attacks were....the only difference is that the former was committed by the US, and the latter was undergone by the US--and this is valid to any country...Israel, France, the Uk....but of course---it's hard to recognize that we may have committed terrorist actions.....but don't get me wrong..I don't condone terrorist attacks of any kind.....but I hate hypocrisy and double-standards--that's all..:)

[Moskitto]

It putting stones into a car fuel tank terrorism?

or is that saboutage?

I haven't tried it, it's just someone I know was trying to do it to us.

[RedCeltic]

but all your 'great' leader like washington etc.
the fought a war killed ppl and said some bull
shit as well.

Washington was no great leader... the only reason he got the job of comander of the Contenental army was because he showed up every day at the Contenental congress in full dress uniform.. and basicly pleaded for the job. During the French and Indian War, he was only a surveyer the only action he saw in that war he screwed up big time...

In the Revolution, he played the smallest part of all... lost every battle, spent the war on the run... and was praticly handed the victory at Yorktown by the colonial generals who actualy did win the war, and the French... that already had the Brittish Army cornered.

During his presidency... Alexander Hamelton was his chief advisor and Washington was basicly Hamelton's puppet...

[Valkyrie]

It putting stones into a car fuel tank terrorism?

or is that saboutage?
---
That's saboutage Mosketto. Terrorism is using acts of violence to coerce a government to change their policies.

[Freiheit]

the problem about hiroshima is that the winner
writes the history books. if the japanes had won,
the americans would have been called terrorists.

[Moskitto]

doh, I knew I shouldn't have called James Train's brother a terrorist.

[Guest]

You're right Redceltic, Hamilton...now there was a great man...

In anycase, I understand what you're saying about GWash, I've always thought the same thing about Lenin.

[JOSELUIS]

I dont think Che would have been extatic about the towers but i damn sure know he would have made sure the white house and the pentagon would have been demolished. Also, depending on the enemy, annihilation is expected. Since America is the beast, it and its constituents should be destroyed fully

[RedCeltic]

In arguing about Alexander Hamelton, one would have to comair him to his opposite Thomas Jefferson. Hamelton was a very briliant man and knew economics. Jefferson on the other hand viewed a nation of yomen farmers. Hamelton believed in a strong centeral government and placing the power in the hands of the cities rather than a weak centeral govt. and the power in the hands of he farmers.

Hamelton saw the need to make the new nation an economic power in a sence you could call him the father of Capitalism. And if things where the other way around, I doubt the United States would have lasted.

But also remember, that there would be no socialist ideology if capialism was never formed. Socialism is not independant from capialism as it is made out to be, yet an evelutionary step. Which is why I believe it is best introduced with reforms rather than forced through revolution.

(Edited by RedCeltic at 8:29 pm on Dec. 23, 2001)

[gogo gomez]

Quote: from Guest on 9:13 pm on Dec. 21, 2001
Excellent post Capitalist.

I might also point out that in all of the quotes that Moskitto provided, Che denounces terrorism not because it is the killing of innocents, but because it is bad PR.


yah, you said bad PR, f*ck PR! and im not studied in terrorism and hostage negotiations either so therefore i cannot quote a darn thing. but i can say this; (romatic garble no doubt!) if you can take one persons life story and apply it to your life and it gets you through then who cares what anybody else thinks. of course not too many people go around idolizing terrorists, they make no sense if you ask me but when your down in the dumps and you have a dream then all you can do is admire someone who has been there and learn from them how they kept going. who can look up to all these american politicians, hell they dont care about me, and if i try to look up to them im screwed because they got it all except what it really takes and that comes from the inside...no one or nothing can take that away from you.

i wont go against what i feel inside, not for you, not for capitalism, not for anyone!

good argument though it caught my interests

and moskitto - way to gogo!

and capitalist what did you expect from a mere man?

(Edited by gogo gomez at 6:47 pm on Dec. 24, 2001)

[booga]

Quote: from Freiheit on 9:09 am on Dec. 22, 2001
if che would be in cuba now, he wouldnt
like it.
he was a great man.
and no one here compares him with jesus.
there are many arguments against him and
as many for him.
but all your 'great' leader like washington etc.
the fought a war killed ppl and said some bull
shit as well.


right, how can we compare the two one of the son of man (Jesus called himself) and the other was a guerilla leader. but they were both man. exempt the bible teaches Jesus was "God" "God's word" in the flesh. and Che is a trusted brother of Jesus, so to speak.

Jesus spoke in many riddles and parables but he had an end result, a goal, a plan for a perfect world.

i dont understand why there is such a problem of sharing in "ideas".

Look at america, we believe in God no doubt but how can we put him on our money? I dont understand that one at all. Everything is confusing to me it seems and i refuse to believe anyone has the answers. I wont even believe in "terrorism" because i dont work for the justice dept and i havent seen the evidence so therefore i dont believe. i believe it was all due to a technological error.

:(