The Police

[liberlict]

How do you guys feel about the functional role of the police in your everyday lives?

I'm wondering because since I've been here I've learned a lot about how minorities might see these kind of powers.

Where I live, there is a lot of vandalism of public property, phone boxes smashed, any kind of glass wont last a week. All the bus stations are built around polycarbonate-safe glass because that's the only way to stop them being destroyed.

My old reaction to this was scornful ... but since I've been here I've come to understand how these 'symbols', bus stations or whatever, could be seen to be symbols of oppression by disempowered classes. So now when I see vandalism I look at it in a different context.

So I was wondering how the revolutionary-left see the police? Do you view them as oppressive, or do they have some valid role to play in the theater of history at the moment?

Basically I'm curious what you do when crime interferes with you life, if it does, and how you put it in context.

[Sea]

I feel strange. I begin to bleed out of the ears. My pupils dilate. I cannot digest lima beans or jell-o in the presence of police. The birds sing at a slightly lower pitch. I do support police theaters but only because it keeps them off the streets. I do not attend personally however, because often they are poor actors. Convicts often have just the right acting skill to portray police officers convincingly, but not the other way around.

[Loony Le Fist]

How do you guys feel about the functional role of the police in your everyday lives?


I'd say it's functional role is for me to interact with them as little as possible. :grin: Kidding aside, I think it's important to have some kind of police protection. But I would prefer them to be chosen by the community they are policing.



I'm wondering because since I've been here I've learned a lot about how minorities might see these kind of powers.


Yep. Sometimes it's hard to break out of the intellectual distortions about.



My old reaction to this was scornful ... but since I've been here I've come to understand how these 'symbols', bus stations or whatever, could be seen to be symbols of oppression by disempowered classes. So now when I see vandalism I look at it in a different context.


I agree. I think it can be a certain type of lashing out. But I think a lot of that can be alleviated if communities got to be a part of deciding who is going to be police. And if these communities had the opportunity to recall bad police officers that abuse their powers. Unchecked power is evil. Zimbardo proved that in the Stanford Prison Experiments. It seems that even among people considered psychologically normal, at least 60% become sadistic when granted authority with too much autonomy.

[Stanford Prison Experiment Video follows]

Standford Prison Experiment




So I was wondering how the revolutionary-left see the police? Do you view them as oppressive, or do they have some valid role to play in the theater of history at the moment?


I think police have to be accountable. I think cops should have to wear personal video recording devices like they do in many cities. This has been very effective in reducing citizen complaints.



Basically I'm curious what you do when crime interferes with you life, if it does, and how you put it in context.

Well as it stands now with the case Warren v. DC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia), the police in the US have absolutely no duty to protect citizens. So I think police should have a duty to protect them as part of their jobs. I have nothing against police personally, I just want them to be held to the necessary standard of account.

[liberlict]

I feel strange. I begin to bleed out of the ears. My pupils dilate. I cannot digest lima beans or jell-o in the presence of police. The birds sing at a slightly lower pitch. I do support police theaters but only because it keeps them off the streets. I do not attend personally however, because often they are poor actors. Convicts often have just the right acting skill to portray police officers convincingly, but not the other way around.

It was a sincere question. If I'm being stupid in asking it i'd appreciate any education you have time for.

[BIXX]

Fuck them, that is my opinion.

If it weren't for them my life would be better. And most situations can be mediated in ways that do not require the police. In fact, often the only thing that prevents that is the police.

Here is an example.

There is a really bad man in my family. He is horridly abusive and he has ruined lives. He has a wife who has several children (one of them tried to kill him before they left home, no one has heard from him since, but he was abused to the point of trying to kill the abuser). Recently she made the decision to get herself and her kids out after finding out this man has also molested several members of our family. She is having an insanely hard time finding a place.

This man had guns and he has threatened/tried to kill family members before. So, for everyone's safety, he should not have guns. The law and police make it impossible to take them from him.

If it weren't for the police he would be dead, and the world would be better.

So fuck the police.

[Loony Le Fist]

I just want to make sure things like this (http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/justice/oklahoma-arrest-death-video/) never happen. Video cameras need to be required by law.


Oklahoma Police Beating Suspect


This is systemic and happens over and over again. The police have been suspended--with pay. Apparently they claimed they were following protocol.

[Prometeo liberado]

First off let's get our verbiage right, they are PIGS. Occupying bodyguards of the monied class. Any ideas of working with them to filter out the bad apples is to entertain the obsured and or insanity. I haven't the time for either.

[BIXX]

First off let's get our verbiage right, they are PIGS. Occupying bodyguards of the monied class. Any ideas of working with them to filter out the bad apples is to entertain the obsured and or insanity. I haven't the time for either.


http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/savage-state-why-you-shouldn-t-call-the-police-pigs

Never insult out beloved animal friends like that again!

[Rosa Partizan]

I feel uncomfortable about them. I got the imperession that at least here in Germany, a certain type of human being chooses this job...the kind that likes to exercize power about others. They tend to turn a blind eye to the fascists when it comes to demonstrations where anti-fascists collide with neo-nazis. But there's the same problem with the German state in general...radical leftists are equated with fascists from the right. Moreover, most of them behave like disgusting douchebags when it comes to dealing with harassed, molested and raped women. I know plenty of these cases. And don't you ever get controlled by the police in your car...that's when they especially love to show off their authoritarian side. So, to cut a long story short, fuck them.

[tuwix]

How do you guys feel about the functional role of the police in your everyday lives?

I'm wondering because since I've been here I've learned a lot about how minorities might see these kind of powers.

Where I live, there is a lot of vandalism of public property, phone boxes smashed, any kind of glass wont last a week. All the bus stations are built around polycarbonate-safe glass because that's the only way to stop them being destroyed.

My old reaction to this was scornful ... but since I've been here I've come to understand how these 'symbols', bus stations or whatever, could be seen to be symbols of oppression by disempowered classes. So now when I see vandalism I look at it in a different context.

So I was wondering how the revolutionary-left see the police? Do you view them as oppressive, or do they have some valid role to play in the theater of history at the moment?

Basically I'm curious what you do when crime interferes with you life, if it does, and how you put it in context.

Police should be deprived of its main function that is protecting a private and state property and thus transformed into militia.

[Loony Le Fist]

I feel uncomfortable about them. I got the imperession that at least here in Germany, a certain type of human being chooses this job...the kind that likes to exercize power about others.


While this is true, there is evidence that shows that the nature of the job itself also causes people to become this way. See my post above on Zimbardo's research (which you may already be familiar with).



They tend to turn a blind eye to the fascists when it comes to demonstrations where anti-fascists collide with neo-nazis. But there's the same problem with the German state in general...radical leftists are equated with fascists from the right. Moreover, most of them behave like disgusting douchebags when it comes to dealing with harassed, molested and raped women.


Yep. There are hundreds of thousands of backlogged rape (https://www.rainn.org/news-room/news/rape-kit-backlog) kits that haven't been checked out. Yet they have the time to harass and chase down protestors?



I know plenty of these cases. And don't you ever get controlled by the police in your car...that's when they especially love to show off their authoritarian side. So, to cut a long story short, fuck them.

I've never heard of "[getting] controlled by police in your car". Do you mean they hack the cars electronic systems and take control of it remotely now?

[BIXX]

While this is true, there is evidence that shows that the nature of the job itself also causes people to become this way. See my post above on Zimbardo's research (which you may already be familiar with).

Well, I need to take a look at your link, but these people were randomly handed their roles, whereas the police choose that (same with politicians, etc...).


I've never heard of "[getting] controlled by police in your car". Do you mean they hack the cars electronic systems and take control of it remotely now?


I think she meant being pulled over.

[Rosa Partizan]

yeah, I meant being pulled over, in German we have the word "kontrollieren" and it means getting checked out, supervised, examined and so on. Sorry for my shitty English, I kinda wonder myself how I got to the point of being about to finish an M.A. in American Studies.

[liberlict]

I just want to make sure things like this (http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/justice/oklahoma-arrest-death-video/) never happen. Video cameras need to be required by law.


Oklahoma Police Beating Suspect


This is systemic and happens over and over again. The police have been suspended--with pay. Apparently they claimed they were following protocol.


Yeah, I can certainly understand that police are legitimized by the state and often abuse their powers. But do you ever have a use for them to protect you, or do you have any respect for their ostensible job to mitigate civil disorder?

[Rosa Partizan]

I guess there may be "good guys" among them, but as loonyleftist mentioned before, many of those good ones get corrupted over the years in this job. As for myself, I can't remember any situation calling them and I hope the need to do so will never occur.

[BIXX]

I guess there may be "good guys" among them, but as loonyleftist mentioned before, many of those good ones get corrupted over the years in this job. As for myself, I can't remember any situation calling them and I hope the need to do so will never occur.


I'm right here. However I agree with your earlier point- anyone who decides they get to prescribe morality and utilize power over others is not my friend.

[Loony Le Fist]

yeah, I meant being pulled over, in German we have the word "kontrollieren" and it means getting checked out, supervised, examined and so on. Sorry for my shitty English, I kinda wonder myself how I got to the point of being about to finish an M.A. in American Studies.

I would say "controlled" is definitely the right word for it. :grin:

I hate being pulled over.

[#FF0000]

Yeah, I can certainly understand that police are legitimized by the state and often abuse their powers. But do you ever have a use for them to protect you, or do you have any respect for their ostensible job to mitigate civil disorder?

Well, clubbing our faces in (as communists) would fall under the purview of "mitigating civil disorder". The police might perform some useful tasks for people, but they exist to maintain the status quo. so as many cats they might save from trees (fire departments have been facing serious cuts recently) they still exist to maintain a system of violence organized and directed at folks like me.

Ordinarily for me, calling the police is an absolute last resort. I avoid cops or talking to cops unless it is absolutely necessary.

[Loony Le Fist]

Yeah, I can certainly understand that police are legitimized by the state and often abuse their powers. But do you ever have a use for them to protect you, or do you have any respect for their ostensible job to mitigate civil disorder?

Asked and answered. Only if strong accountability measures are taken.

[liberlict]

Fuck them, that is my opinion.

If it weren't for them my life would be better. And most situations can be mediated in ways that do not require the police. In fact, often the only thing that prevents that is the police.

Here is an example.

There is a really bad man in my family. He is horridly abusive and he has ruined lives. He has a wife who has several children (one of them tried to kill him before they left home, no one has heard from him since, but he was abused to the point of trying to kill the abuser). Recently she made the decision to get herself and her kids out after finding out this man has also molested several members of our family. She is having an insanely hard time finding a place.

This man had guns and he has threatened/tried to kill family members before. So, for everyone's safety, he should not have guns. The law and police make it impossible to take them from him.

If it weren't for the police he would be dead, and the world would be better.

So fuck the police.

Thanks for your input, but can I ask where you live?

I only want to know because I think it's really hard to discuss this without some kind of context.

For example, I live (currently) in Sydney Australia. But I have traveled to places like Thailand and Bali, where the police behave a lot differently.

For example, for drink driving over here, you will be fined and filtered through a court system. In Bali, you can just bribe the police. And you don't really have another option. You can try to negotiate, but it's not really in your best interests to do so.----they make that quite clear to you.

My impression from experience is that in some countries the police are a KGB type outfit and have no accountability at all, which is a lot different to how the police operate in the countries I'm comfortable living in.

[BIXX]

I'm in the US. West coast. This isn't even about their shitty practices of brutality and oppression, it's about what they stop us from doing,

[Rosa Partizan]

Thanks for your input, but can I ask where you live?

I only want to know because I think it's really hard to discuss this without some kind of context.

For example, I live (currently) in Sydney Australia. But I have traveled to places like Thailand and Bali, where the police behave a lot differently.

For example, for drink driving over here, you will be fined and filtered through a court system. In Bali, you can just bribe the police. And you don't really have another option. You can try to negotiate, but it's not really in your best interests to do so.----they make that quite clear to you.

My impression from experience is that in some countries the police are a KGB type outfit have no accountability at all, which is a lot different to how the police operate in the countries I'm comfortable living in.

yeah that works for ex-Yugoslavia, too. However, this is not any less disturbing, since all those states and their politicians and authorities are corrupt as fuck. With money and connections, you can get very, very far here. Well, you might now say, isn't it everywhere like that? But in other countries, you can achieve a lot even without having one of these. In those ex-YU-countries, this is much more difficult.

[#FF0000]

The cops in my area aren't so corrupt that you can bribe them. You just need to drink with the judge (easy enough in a small town).

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I never really interacted with the police until I went on my first protest. Being nearly bowled over by a cop on a horse whilst getting shouted at was a real eye opener. Being kettled for a few hours and having cops ignore you as you try to leave was likewise aggravating to say the least. Since radicalising I've really been exposed to the police as they function as an arm of the state. I've been harassed as I try to get signatures for petitions, I've been stopped and searched, I've seen cops harassing homeless people, my housemate has been arrested purely because he's not white... to name a few situations.

It really hammers home to me the fact that if I just accepted the status quo I would never have these sorts of interactions but because I challenge the way things are I'm put in situations where cops become a tool of intimidation instead of perceived safety like I might have believed when I was young and naive. From interacting with my older comrades, I became exposed to the realities of cops throughout history where they've harassed mentally ill people, lgbt, immigrants, trade unionists, anyone who doesn't fit within their idea of society which is ultimately merely a reflection of bourgeois ideology. Similarly, the type of person required to accept this role in society thrives on this power dynamic. They need people respecting them or fearing them, there's no empathy just getting ordinary people to follow their orders and their views on the world which is why they get so angry whenever you challenge their authority.

For this reason, I believe that cops are functionally opposed to any form of human liberation and can be counted among our enemies in our aim to abolish capitalism.

[Loony Le Fist]

...
For example, for drink driving over here, you will be fined and filtered through a court system.


In the US where I live, you will very likely be arrested for that, and have your license suspended. When you pay the extra fee to get it back, it is likely regular insurance companies will never provide coverage for your car again. You will likely have to turn to a "high-risk" insurer to get coverage. It also likely the court will impose a restriction, like you can only drive during the day or to and from school/work. If you get caught 5 times in the State of Florida, you will have your license taken away permanently.

Of course you can always refuse the breathalyzer test. That is also an arrestable offense, and you will likely have your license revoked, and have to pay a greater fee. But it makes it more likely you won't have to turn to "high-risk" insurers, and you won't get a DUI. However the five time limit still applies.



My impression from experience is that in some countries the police are a KGB type outfit have no accountability at all, which is a lot different to how the police operate in the countries I'm comfortable living in.

Perhaps you should steer clear of the states then. Especially the southern and mid-western US.

[liberlict]

I'd say it's functional role is for me to interact with them as little as possible. :grin: Kidding aside, I think it's important to have some kind of police protection. But I would prefer them to be chosen by the community they are policing.



Yep. Sometimes it's hard to break out of the intellectual distortions about.



I agree. I think it can be a certain type of lashing out. But I think a lot of that can be alleviated if communities got to be a part of deciding who is going to be police. And if these communities had the opportunity to recall bad police officers that abuse their powers. Unchecked power is evil. Zimbardo proved that in the Stanford Prison Experiments. It seems that even among people considered psychologically normal, at least 60% become sadistic when granted authority with too much autonomy.

[Stanford Prison Experiment Video follows]

Standford Prison Experiment




I think police have to be accountable. I think cops should have to wear personal video recording devices like they do in many cities. This has been very effective in reducing citizen complaints.



Well as it stands now with the case Warren v. DC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia), the police in the US have absolutely no duty to protect citizens. So I think police should have a duty to protect them as part of their jobs. I have nothing against police personally, I just want them to be held to the necessary standard of account.

That's a really interesting study in psychology. Kinda reminds me of the Stockholm Syndrome and to an extent Pavlovian conditioning. It's a good point, i.e., people, or organisms, are conditioned to respond in their variable conditions.

[liberlict]

.



Perhaps you should steer clear of the states then. Especially the southern and mid-western US.

Detroit area etc? Yeah I've read about it and its not on my holiday list. The dynamics behind that mess are interesting to me though. As i'm sure they are to you.

0S7Sf3gJlZ0

[liberlict]

I'm in the US. West coast. This isn't even about their shitty practices of brutality and oppression, it's about what they stop us from doing,


Ahhh ok. So police enforcing the 2nd amendment etc. Well your points all deserve consideration but you still rely on the assumption that under communism the community is going to enforce rules you'd prefer, like nobody can have guns.


Though I do agree with you that it is in everyone's interest to ban guns, or any kind or instruments of destruction for that matter, so in any free society this should naturally come about.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

The police are a special body of armed men which acts as the direct, street-level arm of the bourgeois state. The high-minded rhetoric about the police aside, their job is not to protect citizens or stop crime, as anyone living in predominantly minority or proletarian areas might attest to, but to protect private property. They aren't "workers in uniform" as some revisionists claim but the bitterest enemy of the socialist movement. The socialist revolution outright entails smashing the police, like all parts of the bourgeois state apparatus.


But do you ever have a use for them to protect you, or do you have any respect for their ostensible job to mitigate civil disorder?

If I wanted protection, the police are the last institution I would turn to. The police are those who charge striking workers, harass rape victims, who shoot black people for reaching for imaginary guns, who (to use a local example) beat lesbians up for reporting an attack etc. Calling this "abuse" gives the impression that it is a deviation from the norm. These things, however, are the norm.

As for civil disorder, well, that is not something leftists oppose, at least not in all cases. We quite like ourselves a bit of civil disorder.


Police should be deprived of its main function that is protecting a private and state property and thus transformed into militia.

No, the police should be smashed. This doesn't mean that we barge into the police department, rename the police "the people's police" or militia or Jeff, and then let the policemen, I mean the people's policemen, carry on as before, only under a "socialist" state. It means the police are to be disbanded, and their function subsumed by a universal militia of armed citizens. In time, the functions of the police will lose their special character - government over men will be long gone, and stopping someone from killing another person will be no different than picking up litter or signaling before a turn while driving.

[reb]

The police are the armed force of the state, and the state's main role in society is to maintain the status quo. This means cracking down on civil disobedience and maintaining property rights, etc. The police force is an extension of class society that has irresolvable class antagonisms.

[Loony Le Fist]

The police are a special body of armed men which acts as the direct, street-level arm of the bourgeois state. The high-minded rhetoric about the police aside, their job is not to protect citizens or stop crime, as anyone living in predominantly minority or proletarian areas might attest to, but to protect private property. They aren't "workers in uniform" as some revisionists claim but the bitterest enemy of the socialist movement. The socialist revolution outright entails smashing the police, like all parts of the bourgeois state apparatus.

If I wanted protection, the police are the last institution I would turn to. The police are those who charge striking workers, harass rape victims, who shoot black people for reaching for imaginary guns, who (to use a local example) beat lesbians up for reporting an attack etc. Calling this "abuse" gives the impression that it is a deviation from the norm. These things, however, are the norm.


This is all made clear by Warren v. DC. The police have absolutely no duty to protect citizens. Even if they specifically request help by calling 911 and the operator tells them help is on the way.



As for civil disorder, well, that is not something leftists oppose, at least not in all cases. We quite like ourselves a bit of civil disorder.


As long as it's not directed towards us and towards the appropriate individuals I'm all for it.



No, the police should be smashed. This doesn't mean that we barge into the police department, rename the police "the people's police" or militia or Jeff, and then let the policemen, I mean the people's policemen, carry on as before, only under a "socialist" state. It means the police are to be disbanded, and their function subsumed by a universal militia of armed citizens. In time, the functions of the police will lose their special character - government over men will be long gone, and stopping someone from killing another person will be no different than picking up litter or signaling before a turn while driving.

I agree. But again--this is a de-facto police. Which no one is really opposed to. I think we both can agree that the problem is the police being part of an unaccountable arm of the bourgeois state.

[#FF0000]

As long as it's not directed towards us and towards the appropriate individuals I'm all for it.

That's sort of broad -- who are the appropriate individuals?

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

I agree. But again--this is a de-facto police.

Not really - the police is a special body of armed men, separate from the general population, acting as an enforcement arm of a class dictatorship. A militia of armed worker-citizens would not be separate from the general population.

[Loony Le Fist]

That's sort of broad -- who are the appropriate individuals?

Well, when police riot against leftists, that's not the kind of civil disobedience I can get behind. Or also when fascists do it.

[Loony Le Fist]

Not really - the police is a special body of armed men, separate from the general population, acting as an enforcement arm of a class dictatorship. A militia of armed worker-citizens would not be separate from the general population.

Why do you always leave out important parts of my quotes? We are pretty much in agreement here. :laugh:



...
I agree. But again--this is a de-facto police. Which no one is really opposed to. I think we both can agree that the problem is the police being part of an unaccountable arm of the bourgeois state.

The problem that you have is that police are unaccountable and an arm of the bourgeois state. If the police was a "A militia of armed worker-citizens would not be separate from the general population" then you would not be opposed. We find agreement here.

[sosolo]

Whenever I see a cop, I think, "That person can kill me and face little-to-no ramifications." Video cameras "break", footage can be "lost", and judges can ignore evidence. The "blue wall" is cops protecting each other from following the laws they supposedly enforce. No socialist has any business looking for the good cops, and they are NOT proletarians in uniform. They are the public face of the enemy.

[Sinister Intents]

I can only echo what other people have said, really. Fuck the police, I hate them. They've attacked members of my family, and a few people in my family are pig... excuse me assholes in uniform, so as not to insult real pigs, because real pigs are cute and make great pets. I'm all for like a horizontal police type structure to defend the commune/collective/labor union/et cetera. They'd be more like a neighborhood watch group that could provide emergency services, et cetera.

[Ele'ill]

Where I live, there is a lot of vandalism of public property, phone boxes smashed, any kind of glass wont last a week. All the bus stations are built around polycarbonate-safe glass because that's the only way to stop them being destroyed.

I dunno, maybe it's an intentional thing maybe it isn't so much, maybe it's bored folks destroying shit that isn't theirs or anyone else's in their neighborhood, just for fun. I know some of my friends when they drink will do a lot of bizarre seemingly purposelessly destructive things. Sometimes sober.




My old reaction to this was scornful ... but since I've been here I've come to understand how these 'symbols', bus stations or whatever, could be seen to be symbols of oppression by disempowered classes. So now when I see vandalism I look at it in a different context.

Why will folks who have no or very little 'radical experience' throw shit at cops/cop cars? Why do so many folks with no or very little radical experience tag the shit out of billboards, bus stops, store fronts, etc.. it isn't fuck yeah anarchy but it is a destructive process I don't /never have of course engaged in any activities like this at all ever and am probably projecting my own feelings here but maybe they feel alienated from the world around them, they have no control over the quality of their lives to any meaningful degree, none of the shit they can't afford around them means anything at all to them, or, maybe none of that is true and they have created something else on top of it, some other activity of interest.



So I was wondering how the revolutionary-left see the police? Do you view them as oppressive, or do they have some valid role to play in the theater of history at the moment?

they're the world's largest street gang, the institution protects capital violently because that's its (their) job and most of them think they're doing a good job, wish they could do more and do it more violently, people protecting themselves from police violence is considered violent crime, etc..



Basically I'm curious what you do when crime interferes with you life, if it does, and how you put it in context.

I don't feel safe around police at all, there have been times when the police were called out by someone else and they make it a lot worse. The one time I actually feared for my life was when cops were called by someone close to me at the time and they essentially entered and held us at gun point. It's a lot different hearing about it or watching shows with cops casually having their guns out, irl they're out, pointed at you, their full attention is on you and whether or not they're going to kill you. I try to seek out other means of dealing with it other than calling the cops and that isn't wishful rhetoric I have done it on several occasions. I am also not naive (or maybe I am) and I think there might be situations where unfortunately, at least at this present time in the world, where calling those thugs is the only option available. With that said, solely from my experience and others I've talked to, they usually make things a lot worse.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I've had a bunch of interactions with the po-po. Never called them, though, and don't plan on doing it anytime soon.

One of my friends pointed out once that one of the major divisions in society seems to be between the people who see a police car roll down their block and are reassured, and the people who see the same police car and get paranoid. I'm definitely in the later category, even when I'm not doing anything questionable.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Why do you always leave out important parts of my quotes? We are pretty much in agreement here. :laugh:

[...]

The problem that you have is that police are unaccountable and an arm of the bourgeois state. If the police was a "A militia of armed worker-citizens would not be separate from the general population" then you would not be opposed. We find agreement here.

But that's like saying that, if avocados could fly and shoot missiles, they would make decent interceptors. Well, sure. But that misses the point. A workers' militia, not separate from the general population, would not be anything like the police. I think many people make the mistake that police work would remain as it is, only instead of officers we would have people's officers, instead of prisons people's prisons, etc. And that everyone would have to be a policeman of the usual type, which sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare more than a free society. I think a better analogy would be community watch groups, or even the dreaded CheKa (a fundamentally misunderstood organ, I think).

[Loony Le Fist]

But that's like saying that, if avocados could fly and shoot missiles, they would make decent interceptors. Well, sure. But that misses the point.


That's quite the hyperbole. But amusing. :grin:

The comparison I was making is between two types of defense forces--one that is empowered by the state to enforce the law, protect property, and limit civil disorder. The other empowered and chosen amongst the people themselves to ensure that people are truly kept safe in their homes. It is quite a stretch to introduce that false comparison to flying avocadoes that shoot missles. I wasn't that far off.



A workers' militia, not separate from the general population, would not be anything like the police. I think many people make the mistake that police work would remain as it is, only instead of officers we would have people's officers, instead of prisons people's prisons, etc. And that everyone would have to be a policeman of the usual type, which sounds like a bureaucratic nightmare more than a free society.

I think a better analogy would be community watch groups, or even the dreaded CheKa (a fundamentally misunderstood organ, I think).

Police work obviously cannot remain the same. And when did I say everyone is going to be a police officer of the usual type--let alone make everyone police?

Have you ever thought of trying to find common ground with people, instead of seeing the differences all the time? :rolleyes: I understand we are jaded as leftists, but we are basically on the same team here. We all are in this fight together. Constantly splitting hairs over terminology and fighting amongst ourselves over minutiae doesn't help further this cause.

[Ele'ill]

I don't think we are all on the same team or same side. I think that's a myth.

[Loony Le Fist]

I don't think we are all on the same team or same side. I think that's a myth.

You're right of course--in the general sense. But I meant it in the context of the back and forth I was having with Criminalize Heterosexuality.

[#FF0000]

Well, when police riot against leftists, that's not the kind of civil disobedience I can get behind. Or also when fascists do it.

I'm not sure I can get behind giving support to the state for putting down any political dissidents. Anti-fascism is our job -- not the state's. If they can put down fascists they can put us down too.

[Jimmie Higgins]

How do you guys feel about the functional role of the police in your everyday lives?i generally try and avoid them when I can. They are a heavy presence and have lots of gear and toys in Oakland (a mobile tower, tanks, new SUVs to replace all the cars, and the sheriff has drones) but I am generally not hassled on account of being light skinned and in my 30s.


I'm wondering because since I've been here I've learned a lot about how minorities might see these kind of powers.

Where I live, there is a lot of vandalism of public property, phone boxes smashed, any kind of glass wont last a week. All the bus stations are built around polycarbonate-safe glass because that's the only way to stop them being destroyed.

My old reaction to this was scornful ... but since I've been here I've come to understand how these 'symbols', bus stations or whatever, could be seen to be symbols of oppression by disempowered classes. So now when I see vandalism I look at it in a different context. eh, there's vandalism, some cars broken into and mug goings here. In the most general sense I think that most of the non gang vandalism and some of the random violence is due to basic alienation, but I don't have a view of these acts generally being something symbolic or consciously an opposition to oppression.


So I was wondering how the revolutionary-left see the police? Do you view them as oppressive, or do they have some valid role to play in the theater of history at the moment? yes they have a role to play: managing the masses both on a daily street sort of level and in terms of political repression of protests and strikes and movements. So it's a bad role in my view.

In terms of "public safety" from street crime, petty theft and random violence... They are essentially useless. Police are a reactive force at best... "Crime prevention" or patrols are a lot of b.s.

While I don't personally get harassed on the streets (I have been harassed and detained because of civil disobedience, and illegally detained coz repression, in "political life") I see police harassing people for fuck all daily (mostly around the subway). Cops shot a homeless guy for peeing on a fence a couple blocks from my house (he lived) they killed oscar grant at the subway station I use and a year later they killed a homeless guy who was having a fit or breakdown. They don't help anything except gentrification and political repression.


Basically I'm curious what you do when crime interferes with you life, if it does, and how you put it in context.i've been mugged at gun point. It sucks. Cops can't do anything and wouldn't have done anything if I called them about it. I would personally only report a theft if I had to - like if I had a car and had to report damage for insurance reasons. But otherwise I would not call the cops for random theft, they probably wouldn't do anything and I've heard too many stories from people who were wrongly harassed or arrested for "fitting the description".

[Loony Le Fist]

I'm not sure I can get behind giving support to the state for putting down any political dissidents. Anti-fascism is our job -- not the state's. If they can put down fascists they can put us down too.

I agree. So when did I claim I wanted the state doing this? I was talking about my personal views.

[Naroc]

I have very mixed feelings about the police. Of course, they ensure the maintaining of our current system and are "working for our enemys". Not to mention cop-violence against (at the beginning) peaceful protesters, as i've seen it a lot of times before. If i'd follow that logic i'd actually have to hate them.

On the other sides i have always in mind that they're just people who are doing their jobs to feed their families. I know that there are some of them who knowingly abuse their power, but i don't think that those guys are the majority. And yeah, there's no doubt that they are useful in some situations, like protecting citizens from criminals etc. That's why i don't know how i should feel about them. Personally i think phrases like A.C.A.B are just stupid, just because you don't like a persons job, it's not a reason to hate him/her.
I try to avoid thinking in prejudices when i'm facing cops, although sometimes it's kind of hard.

[Das war einmal]

I find lots of these stereotypical rev-left reactions quite immature. 'All cops are pigs', etc. It's juvenile and won't get you any credit whatsoever outside of your own tendency.

Basically they uphold the law, if the law changes, they follow, that can be either a positive or a negative thing, depending on the changes. If we have a socialist society then the law would change dramatically and so will the role of the police. Same goes with the army.

[Alexios]

On the other sides i have always in mind that they're just people who are doing their jobs to feed their families. I know that there are some of them who knowingly abuse their power, but i don't think that those guys are the majority. And yeah, there's no doubt that they are useful in some situations, like protecting citizens from criminals etc. That's why i don't know how i should feel about them. Personally i think phrases like A.C.A.B are just stupid, just because you don't like a persons job, it's not a reason to hate him/her.
I try to avoid thinking in prejudices when i'm facing cops, although sometimes it's kind of hard.

This sort of thinking would be fine if revolution was just a matter of passively trying to change people's minds, rather than actively trying to topple the state. It's true that many sign up to be police just because they're trying to make a living, but that doesn't change the fact that they play a role that exists entirely to protect state and capital. The police are given an incredible amount of power and can get away with almost anything; even ancient democracies that we claim to have surpassed would have seen this as barbaric. Because of this I don't think that things like "ACAB" are off the mark. Police need to be singled out.

[Naroc]

I never doubted what you've said, and i know what has to be done in a revolution as well ;) i only stated even though they have so much power i can't just ignore the fact that they're humans like you and me. But you are right, i guess i'm a bit too moderate about this aspect^^

Another thing is when it comes to police violence against peaceful protesters, when the police starts beating and spraying random and innocent people. In this case i forget all of my principles and positive views which i mentioned in my first post.

[Leftsolidarity]

I find lots of these stereotypical rev-left reactions quite immature. 'All cops are pigs', etc. It's juvenile and won't get you any credit whatsoever outside of your own tendency.


It is true though. All cops are pigs. It's not a descriptive answer but it's a correct one.



Basically they uphold the law, if the law changes, they follow, that can be either a positive or a negative thing, depending on the changes. If we have a socialist society then the law would change dramatically and so will the role of the police. Same goes with the army.

Yeah, not really. They aren't a neutral force solely used by the civilian government. Everything, particularly the police, is tainted by classes. The police are an arm of the capitalist state and their core purpose is to protect property relations (I'm not saying anything new here) and the status quo. The state will act to uphold those property relations no matter what reforms and laws are passed. And history has shown that the state apparatus will attack a civilian government that steps too far out of line. It's not some "their role depends on the law" situation. It's a "their role remains the same despite the law" situation.

[liberlict]

No, the police should be smashed. This doesn't mean that we barge into the police department, rename the police "the people's police" or militia or Jeff, and then let the policemen, I mean the people's policemen, carry on as before, only under a "socialist" state. It means the police are to be disbanded, and their function subsumed by a universal militia of armed citizens.

That's a nice idea, but I don't think it's very realistic. A "universal militia of armed citizens" sounds a lot more prone to abuse than the 'police' as we think of them today.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Law Enforcement is the enemy of the working class, period.

In the US, the police not only work as the shock troops of the bourgeoisie, they are also their own power base. In the United States we have an organization called the Fraternal Order of Police. This is the pigs' version of a labor union (though its really more of a cartel) that not only actively supports abusive cops, but has also been active in lobbying to dismantle the social safety net and increasing the size of the police state by lobbying for the REAL ID Act. They also lobbied for the passage of the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, which basically allow all police officers and retired police officers to carry a concealed weapon regardless of State or local laws.

[liberlict]

Law Enforcement is the enemy of the working class, period.

In the US, the police not only work as the shock troops of the bourgeoisie, they are also their own power base. In the United States we have an organization called the Fraternal Order of Police. This is the pigs' version of a labor union (though its really more of a cartel) that not only actively supports abusive cops, but has also been active in lobbying to dismantle the social safety net and increasing the size of the police state by lobbying for the REAL ID Act. They also lobbied for the passage of the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, which basically allow all police officers and retired police officers to carry a concealed weapon regardless of State or local laws.

Cool. So how does law enforcing work in a commune? Do you delegate power to worker police? Or is the community directly involved in arbitrating crime? or is the assumption that there will be no crime? I do see how the police spend pretty much all their time protecting private property, no arguments there.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I find lots of these stereotypical rev-left reactions quite immature. 'All cops are pigs', etc. It's juvenile and won't get you any credit whatsoever outside of your own tendency.

I think the workers who have had their strikes or protests broken up by the police, women who have been abused by the police for reporting a rape, national minorities who were stopped and searched for no reason, gay people who were beaten while the police stood by and watched, all of these people are likely to have a pretty fucking good understanding of why we oppose the police.

And even if this were not the case, so what? Class consciousness can't be spread by tricks; if someone conceals or ignores their socialist standpoint in order to appeal to the general population, they haven't accomplished anything.


Basically they uphold the law, if the law changes, they follow [...]

No, actually they don't. Whenever a social revolution happens, the police are one of the groups that resists the new order.


That's a nice idea, but I don't think it's very realistic. A "universal militia of armed citizens" sounds a lot more prone to abuse than the 'police' as we think of them today.

Why?