Tony Benn has croaked it

[Futility Personified]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/14/tony-benn-dies-aged-88-labour-politiican

I don't know much in particular about Mr Benn, though this

"The Sun once asked whether his firebrand views made him "the most dangerous man in Britain"."

Is probably quite a mark of good character. I've heard his name spoken with respect by most people i've met about him. Thoughts, feelings?

[Q]

First Bob Crow, now Tony Benn. Rough week in Britain.

[Hit The North]

He was a typical Labour left, compromised by office and shackled by reformism. Essentially a good bloke, though. RIP.

[radiocaroline]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QICgjelI6Ss/UPEp--KvncI/AAAAAAAAXb4/1Sliha01w14/s1600/If+you+can+find+money+to+kill+people+you+can+find+ money+to+help+people.jpg

[reb]

There was nothing particularly revolutionary about his rhetoric and he was quite naive when it came to the real world.

[tallguy]

He was a typical Labour left, compromised by office and shackled by reformism. Essentially a good bloke, though. RIP.
yep, I'll miss him.

[The Feral Underclass]

Old man dies, shocker.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

There was nothing particularly revolutionary about his rhetoric

Well he was a parliamentarian and a reformist, which of course one can be critical of.


and he was quite naive when it came to the real world.I think that goes hand in hand with being a reformist socialist. Again I think we can be critical of some of his reformist positions while recognizing that, unlike most other Social Democrats in Britain's Labour Party, he didn't throw the goal of Socialism out and remained committed to the interests of the working class. Which is why he got sidelined in the party as it drifted right.

[tallguy]

Old man dies, shocker.
Oh how very erudite of you. Please do share some more of your pearls of wisdom. I can't wait. For all his political flaws, which are obvious and undeniable, he did more for his fellow humans than you will ever do in your smug little non existence.

[The Feral Underclass]

Oh how very erudite of you. Please do share some more of your pearls of wisdom. I can't wait. For all his political flaws, which are obvious and undeniable, he did more for his fellow humans than you will ever do in your smug little non existence.

Oh sorry, I couldn't hear you over all the fucks I am not giving.

[The Feral Underclass]

To qualify my 'smugness' before I get into trouble, Tony Benn was not merely a statist and reformist, he was also responsible for supporting police violence against squatters, crossing pickets and dealing with the apartied government. He was not an exceptional man in any way whatsoever, and if people wish to fawn over him because he once said some nice things about the NHS or repeated some liberal soundbite about how there should be less defence spending, then go right ahead, but it doesn't make you particularly exceptional either.

[ed miliband]

Interestingly, he renounced his aristocratic hereditary lordship, and he never went along with the inevitable pro-market movement which any institutionalized parliamentary party of the Left goes through. He seems like one of those rare social democrats who stuck to his guns, unlike most other significant figures in Britain's Labour left.

Um, he was part of the Callaghan government that introduced the first monetarist reforms. His 'left turn' only came after he left office, up until then he was happy enough to do all the nasty stuff he'd later condemn others for doing, without ever resigning.

[The Feral Underclass]

Um, he was part of the Callaghan government that introduced the first monetarist reforms. His 'left turn' only came after he left office, up until then he was happy enough to do all the nasty stuff he'd later condemn others for doing, without ever resigning.

And that was probably for political expedience anyway. I wouldn't trust a word he said. Politicians are professional attention seekers. He managed to carve out a nice little niche in the left, building up a profile as some mild social democrat.

[ed miliband]

And that was probably for political expedience anyway. I wouldn't trust a word he said. Politicians are professional attention seekers. He managed to carve out a nice little niche in the left, building up a profile as some mild social democrat.

That's my point, I'd be more convinced by Benn's move to the left if there was any sense he'd reflected on the nature of the state and the position it put him in throughout his time his time in government - always against the very people whose side he claimed to be on. But nope, he remained utterly wedded to it.

[ed miliband]

Best characterisation of Benn I ever saw was from the SPGB as a 'radical liberal still fighting the battles of the 1860s', or something like that. Bit rich of the SPGB to accuse someone else of being Victorian, but it definitely sums up Benn's politics for me. There might have been something admirable about that a century ago, less so now.

[ed miliband]

Scratch that, a century ago was 1914! Make it a century and a half ago! We know which side Benn would have been on in 1914...

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I remember being at the TUC demo a few years ago when Miliband got up to speak and everyone started booing him when he said Labour would put forward cuts with a heavy heart or some bollucks, we were all shouting out shit, looked to our right and Benn was there in a little camping chair gazing on at us quite bemused.

[Q]

Oh sorry, I couldn't hear you over all the fucks I am not giving.
That is hardly a useful post, as you yourself acknowledge a post later.

Verbal.

[The Feral Underclass]

That is hardly a useful post, as you yourself acknowledge a post later.

Verbal.


But tallguy's was I suppose?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GerrardWinstanley]

From Free at Last, Diaries: 1991-2001,


"Had a long talk to the Chinese First Secretary at the embassy — a very charming man called Liao Dong — and said how much I admired Mao Tse tung or Zedong, the greatest man of the twentieth century."

A man after my own heart.
R.I.P.

[blake 3:17]

Much respect.

[Devrim]

People seem to forget how Benn decimated mining communities with the pit closures he made when he was Minister for Energy, how he planned to use troops against striking workers, and how he was responsible, alongside the right-wing of the NUM leadership, for the bonus scene that was in many ways responsible for the divisions between miners in the strike of 84-5.

Devrim

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Old man dies, shocker.

They do seem to be dropping like flies recently. A few more months of this, and certain elements that shall remain unnamed won't have anyone to put forward as a supposed "Labour left".

Or maybe they'll dig Blair out of the dustbin, it's about as consistent as praising Benn.

[Comrade Jacob]

Take what you will from this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYPeaoyU_Vc

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

RIP. People are too quick to ignore the good work he's done in the past 30 years. Granted, he was a pretty shitty minister 35-40 years ago, but fuck it, if people can't learn from their mistakes and spend decades fighting on the side of ordinary people then there's no hope for all of us.

He was no communist but that doesn't mean he wasn't a decent man who, despite all the statist rhetoric and naivety, was a friend of working people.

I think Britain is a worse place for his loss.

[Per Levy]

A man after my own heart.
R.I.P.

so what i could take from this thread, this guy wanted to use the military against workers and closed mines and with that was an enemy of the working class. and that this guy is "A man after my own heart" just because he said some nice thing about mao is quite telling.

also what is up with the love for some social dems who sound(not act) like social dems? i though this was called revleft and not refleft.

[ed miliband]

RIP. People are too quick to ignore the good work he's done in the past 30 years. Granted, he was a pretty shitty minister 35-40 years ago, but fuck it, if people can't learn from their mistakes and spend decades fighting on the side of ordinary people then there's no hope for all of us.

He was no communist but that doesn't mean he wasn't a decent man who, despite all the statist rhetoric and naivety, was a friend of working people.

I think Britain is a worse place for his loss.

what "good work" has he done? the man spent 30 years giving speeches to people trying to convince them to join the labour party.

and the problem with benn is he didnt "learn form [his] mistakes" at all, if he did it would be an entirely different story.

benn did far more damage than most people could ever do. the fact he came across as "decent" (a moral judgement the left seem to love) can't save him of that. i'm not even trying to be edgy, i can almost understand people being upset about bob crow - benn was on an entirely different level though.

[Q]

what "good work" has he done? the man spent 30 years giving speeches to people trying to convince them to join the labour party.

and the problem with benn is he didnt "learn form [his] mistakes" at all, if he did it would be an entirely different story.

benn did far more damage than most people could ever do. the fact he came across as "decent" (a moral judgement the left seem to love) can't save him of that. i'm not even trying to be edgy, i can almost understand people being upset about bob crow - benn was on an entirely different level though.
So, what crimes did Benn commit? Is there some background reading people can do? I only know him from his Stop the War Coalition and related work of the last decade really.

[Zukunftsmusik]

So, what crimes did Benn commit? Is there some background reading people can do? I only know him from his Stop the War Coalition and related work of the last decade really.

There's already been mentioned quite a few things in this thread.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I know he closed coal pits as Labour's Secretary of Energy but some people claimed he advocated using soldiers to break strikes. Does anyone have a link showing that? From what I gather, he was given the position in 1975 but the major miners strikes took place in 72 and 74 and he wasn't in government during the 84 strike. When was he in a position to advocate using soldiers to break strikes?

[Dr Doom]

it was during a wildcat strike at a nuclear power plant in 1977 i think. I would try and find a link but I'm on my phone and am too lazy.

[ed miliband]

I know he closed coal pits as Labour's Secretary of Energy but some people claimed he advocated using soldiers to break strikes. Does anyone have a link showing that? From what I gather, he was given the position in 1975 but the major miners strikes took place in 72 and 74 and he wasn't in government during the 84 strike. When was he in a position to advocate using soldiers to break strikes?

devrim's post contains an important distinction, one i've admittedly been quick to ignore: benn did not use troops against strikers, but planned to do so at the windscale nuclear plant.

luckily for anyone who won't hear a bad word against him, benn kept detailed notes of all this in his diaries, which are now widely available in all good bookstores.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

devrim's post contains an important distinction, one i've admittedly been quick to ignore: benn did not use troops against strikers, but planned to do so at the windscale nuclear plant.

luckily for anyone who won't hear a bad word against him, benn kept detailed notes of all this in his diaries, which are now widely available in all good bookstores.
Yes, I gathered he didn't actually do it as I'm certain I would have found note of it elsewhere, I was just unaware of the context.

[Devrim]

Yes, I gathered he didn't actually do it as I'm certain I would have found note of it elsewhere, I was just unaware of the context.

The context which time? As far as I am aware Tony Benn's office was responsible for drafting plans to use troops to break strikes on two separate occasions, once during a strike at Windscale nuclear power plant, and once during the lorry drivers' strike. He was also a member of the Labour government, which did actually use troops during the firemen's strike in 1977.

Devrim

[Left Voice]

The left in the UK lost two good 'uns this week with the deaths of Bob Crow and Tony Benn, however reformist their policies ultimately were.

While he actually served in parliament, he did plenty that most of us here would disagree with - much of which has been mentioned in this thread. To be fair, he was a vocal supporter of the 1984-85 miner's strike though, going against the Labour Party leadership of the time.

He's quite unique in actually becoming more left wing after serving in parliament and seeing how much of parliamentary democracy revolves around vested interests and careerist politicians with no principles.

Like him or loathe him, he was a significant figure in the 'visible' left, playing an active role in the Stop the War coalition etc.. I would suggest that people's hate should be directed at those to his right.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

luckily for anyone who won't hear a bad word against him

You seem to be attaching this to anybody who is actually prepared to critically examine Benn's political life, i.e. anybody who won't condemn him as the devil re-incarnate.

As for some of the good work he did, i'd imagine his anti-war, anti-fascism work over a long period is something that should be commended.

Again, if you want to pigeon-hole him, then yes he was just a left-Social Democrat, but actually despite my own differences with his own political ideas, he was still a decent man who seemed to be on the side of the working class.

Perhaps we could start showing a bit more humanity sometimes? It's no wonder that many working people and leftists are expressing condolences at his death and a few irrelevant internet communists are sat here, moaning and marginalised as usual...:rolleyes:

[reb]

You seem to be attaching this to anybody who is actually prepared to critically examine Benn's political life, i.e. anybody who won't condemn him as the devil re-incarnate.

As for some of the good work he did, i'd imagine his anti-war, anti-fascism work over a long period is something that should be commended.

Again, if you want to pigeon-hole him, then yes he was just a left-Social Democrat, but actually despite my own differences with his own political ideas, he was still a decent man who seemed to be on the side of the working class.

Perhaps we could start showing a bit more humanity sometimes? It's no wonder that many working people and leftists are expressing condolences at his death and a few irrelevant internet communists are sat here, moaning and marginalised as usual...:rolleyes:

This is pretty typical of those of "The Left", supporting someone on anti-fascist grounds who would also use troops to break up worker struggles. I'm not doubting that he may have been a jolly good fellow, but I'm sure other anti-communist people have been jolly good people as well. Is there some weird collective soft spot with the Brits for parliamentarians?

[Hit The North]

Is there some weird collective soft spot with the Brits for parliamentarians?

Yes, we grasp at the straws as they float by on the river of shit that is British politics.

[tallguy]

Yes, we grasp at the straws as they float by on the river of shit that is British politics.
:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[piet11111]

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/03/15/benn-m15.html

http://www.marxist.com/tony-benn-an-outstanding-leader-of-british-left.htm


I havent heard of this guy before the above articles but i get that he was one of those "top-down" reformists who wanted no part of such nasty class conflict thinking.
And that people should just sit down and talk until the bourgeois come to their senses.

[ed miliband]

You seem to be attaching this to anybody who is actually prepared to critically examine Benn's political life, i.e. anybody who won't condemn him as the devil re-incarnate.

As for some of the good work he did, i'd imagine his anti-war, anti-fascism work over a long period is something that should be commended.

Again, if you want to pigeon-hole him, then yes he was just a left-Social Democrat, but actually despite my own differences with his own political ideas, he was still a decent man who seemed to be on the side of the working class.

Perhaps we could start showing a bit more humanity sometimes? It's no wonder that many working people and leftists are expressing condolences at his death and a few irrelevant internet communists are sat here, moaning and marginalised as usual...:rolleyes:

Well, where was your humanity when you celebrated Thatcher's death? You went much further than any of being critical of benn here did, so where was your humanity then? I'm not saying you shouldn't have, just that if you're going to be moralistic about death etiquette, be consistent with it at least.

There's such an obvious logic at play here though: benn = left = good = "good, decent man". if benn died without trying to build a personal following by adopting soppy left politics and playing the ruling class rebel, I doubt you'd be so quick to mourn, to judge those critically assessing him, or to defend him as a "decent man" (how do you know that btw?)

Your last paragraph. Jesus. The left is irrelevant for many reasons, not because of me pointing out that tony benn did a fuckload of unsavoury things in office. I don't give a fuck that "many leftists" are expressing condolences, it's to be expected. And so is the entirety of the ruling class - many warm words and tears for one of their own.

[Devrim]

Perhaps we could start showing a bit more humanity sometimes? It's no wonder that many working people and leftists are expressing condolences at his death and a few irrelevant internet communists are sat here, moaning and marginalised as usual...:rolleyes:

I think that it is the left, or more specifically those sections of the left which trail the Labour Party* who are expressing their condolences on his death. I don't think that Benn was ever as popular amongst the working class as he was amongst the left, and there were certain sections of the working class, for example South Wales miners, who deeply hated him.

Nobody here though has said anything offensive about him in any way. It has just been pointed out that he wasn't as left-wing as some people on here seem to think.


Again, if you want to pigeon-hole him, then yes he was just a left-Social Democrat, but actually despite my own differences with his own political ideas, he was still a decent man who seemed to be on the side of the working class.

I think this phrase "just a left-Social Democrat" shows the gulf between your politics and mine. The 'just' implies that there is some continuum that can be moved along. That somehow we are part of the same movement.
I don't think that we are. Tony Benn was a member of the ruling class. He was an MP and a government minister**, who implemented attacks against the working class. Probably the worst attack was the implementation of the bonus scheme, against the will of the majority of miners, which had the effect of dividing miners in different coalfields, and had ultimately catastrophic effects in 1984-5.

Devrim

*Which is admittedly the majority of the British left.
**as incidentally was his father, and one of his sons. His grandfather was only an MP and a baronet

[Jolly Red Giant]

It is interesting to see some of the comments from ultra-left sectarians on this forum dismissing Tony Benn. So let's get a few things straight -

1. Was Benn a revolutionary socialist? - No
2. Was Benn a left-reformist? - Yes - he believed in a parliamentary road to socialism.
3. Was Benn a right-wing hack in the Labour government's of the 1960s and 1970s? - Yes
4. Did he implement anti-working class measures while a government minister? - Yes.

Now let's put this into context, under the influence of the radicalisation of the working class in Britain in the 1960s and 1970s Benn shifted to the left. From the late 1970s onwards Benn fought an unending battle to prevent the emergence of New Labour and return the LP to the campaigning principles it was founded on 100+ years ago. Benn turned his back on his social background, the class interests of his family and the interest of the elites. Benn acknowledged that he had done significant damage to the working class and workers movement - and has spent 35 years campaigning to reverse these measures.

In 1981 Benn stood against Healey for deputy leader of the LP. At the time the right-wing of the LP were attempting to shift the LP dramatically to the right (even being willing to split the LP to secure Thatcher's re-election which the gang of four did when the founded the SDP). Benn lost by a handful of votes directly as a result of the manipulation of the trade union block vote in support of Healey by right-wing trade union leaders like Frank (later Lord) Chapple. Benn had the overwhelming support of the constituency Labour Parties and the rank-and-file of the LP.

Benn gave unswerving support to the miners during the miners strike and traveled the Britain rallying support for the miners cause. He gave unswerving support to Liverpool's socialist council in the mid-1980s and defended the socialist councillors from the disgraceful attacks by Kinnock and the LP leadership.

Tony Benn played a major role in the campaign to defeat the Poll Tax that led to the downfall of Thatcher and the removal of a hated tax that attempted to transfer vast wealth from the working class to the elites.

Benn's role in fighting for socialist ideas and his campaigning efforts should be acknowledged. There are and have been many issues where I would be in disagreement with Benn but I acknowledge his role as a socialist activist. From the start this thread has been disrespectful to Benn's activism over the past 35 - even the title is disrespectful. The interesting thing is that while Benn turned his back on the class interests of the elites and spend 40 years campaigning in the interests of socialism - in 35 years time the majority ultra-left internet warriors on this forum who are criticising Benn will be right-wingers or softy-softy liberals attacking the workers movement. Benn has done more in the past 35 years to further the cause of socialism than the vast majority of the internet warriors on here combined will do in their lifetime.

[Hit The North]

I think this phrase "just a left-Social Democrat" shows the gulf between your politics and mine. The 'just' implies that there is some continuum that can be moved along. That somehow we are part of the same movement.
I don't think that we are.

This implies that you don't think revolutionary communists should be a part of the Labour Movement, which is the organised section of the working class.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Well, where was your humanity when you celebrated Thatcher's death? You went much further than any of being critical of benn here did, so where was your humanity then? I'm not saying you shouldn't have, just that if you're going to be moralistic about death etiquette, be consistent with it at least.

I think I made a point of not celebrating Thatcher's death, although as you know I had other reasons to celebrate that day.

I wasn't talking specifically about death etiquette anyway. Thatcher was a massive asshole and throughout her life provided political cover and indeed was at the head of capital's vicious attacks on labour as it sought to accumulate at labour's expense after the failure of the Keynesian consensus.

Whereas Tony Benn showed for a period of 30+ years that, although mis-guided, his person and politics were rooted in social justice, not capitalistic accumulation.

Perhaps i'm too wedded to middle class notions of British leftism, I don't know? But I see Tony Benn and Margaret Thatcher, for example, as two very much different entities.


There's such an obvious logic at play here though: benn = left = good = "good, decent man". if benn died without trying to build a personal following by adopting soppy left politics and playing the ruling class rebel, I doubt you'd be so quick to mourn, to judge those critically assessing him, or to defend him as a "decent man" (how do you know that btw?)

You're very much framing that according to your own personal ideas, though. I'm not sure you have any evidence that Benn was so cynical as to "build a personal following by adopting soppy left politics".

I'd like to think i've always been able to critically assess any person, dead or alive. As i've said, there is a wealth of difference in many aspects between what I believe and what Tony Benn believed (notably, on the state and the nature of political power), but I would also say that there are enough similarities in terms of ideas about fairness, social justice etc. that I would want to pay my respects to him, whereas to take your Thatcher example, I can think of zero reasons i'd have any respect for her, personally or politically.


Your last paragraph. Jesus. The left is irrelevant for many reasons, not because of me pointing out that tony benn did a fuckload of unsavoury things in office. I don't give a fuck that "many leftists" are expressing condolences, it's to be expected. And so is the entirety of the ruling class - many warm words and tears for one of their own.

Yeah of course the ruling class and their crocodile tears are nauseating and hard to believe - even more so when you hear people like Johnson, Clegg, Cameron, Blair and Miliband expressing their condolences over Bob Crow too. Clearly fake.

It's a symptom, not a cause though. It's very much symptomatic that, at a time when the overwhelming majority of people seem to be paying respects to a politician that was actually alright (especially in comparison to most others), the left is keen to bring up 40 year old mud and arguments about 'anti-communism' as an excuse to have a go at a dead man.

[blake 3:17]

Leo Panitch on Tony Benn:


There are two things you need to know about Tony Benn. The first is that he always saw his primary role, as a politician, as that of an educator who was engaged in developing popular democratic ambitions and capacities. The second is that, again unlike most politicians, he actually took democracy seriously in terms of its potential for changing the world. These two rare qualities explain why he was among very few political leaders of the 20th century who became more rather than less radical over the course of their careers.

"Socialism is not just a question of material progress," Benn told the Bristol South-East constituency party meeting that selected him as a parliamentary candidate in 1950. It was "a way of thinking that can find its expression in every city and every community and every home". His goal was to "inspire people afresh". His job would be to "make, teach and keep socialists".


Tony Benn on socialism – audio interview from 2006 Link to this audio
While his commitment to the Labour party was unshakable, Benn never fitted quite comfortably into the left, centre or right camps within it. What mainly concerned him as a young MP was neither revising nor clinging to the commitment to public ownership in the party's constitution, but rather supporting decolonisation in Africa and challenging the claptrap that passes for "tradition" in British constitutional discourse.

This, together with his facility for using new media such as television to "inspire people afresh", was why he was regarded back then as Labour's leading moderniser.

Benn often said it was his experience in government in the 1960s that drove him further to the left. He saw how utterly dependent he was as minister of technology on what unelected private corporations would reveal about their knowledge and their plans. Socialising the "commanding heights" of the economy was basically a question, therefore, of realising the promise of democracy.

By the time Labour was defeated in 1970, Benn was already warning against the basically undemocratic market alternative to this that was "now emerging everywhere on the right". The "greater freedom from government" it promoted would mainly be "enjoyed by big business", by allowing it to '"control the new citizen at the very same time as government reduces its protections".

Against this, Benn hopefully saw the student uprisings, worker militancy and radical community politics of the time as the fuel that the Labour party needed to harness in order to effectively realise democracy in Britain. Dismayed by the utter disdain with which they were treated by most of the parliamentary Labour party, he became the most prominent voice making the case that "our long campaign to democratise power in Britain has, first, to begin in our own movement".


Full article: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/14/tony-benn-educator-radical-champion-democracy-labour-unions

[Comrade Jacob]

A bad person in office but I believe he did a lot to try and redeem himself. RIP.

[blake 3:17]

But I see Tony Benn and Margaret Thatcher, for example, as two very much different entities.

Just because Benn was a socialist and an opponent of imperialist war and a supporter of the working class and Thatcher was an anti-socialist and imperialist warrior and an opponent of the working class?

wtf

Tony Benn was a hero for our side and should be respected as such.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Just because Benn was a socialist and an opponent of imperialist war and a supporter of the working class and Thatcher was an anti-socialist and imperialist warrior and an opponent of the working class?

wtf

Tony Benn was a hero for our side and should be respected as such.

Have you even read the thread?

[ed miliband]

Have you even read the thread?

Blake doesn't even pretend to be a revolutionary anymore, it's no surprise that he should admire Benn so wholeheartedly.

[Left Voice]

I think it says more about the state of the British left than anything else. If you were at ask people on the street to name three so-called 'far left' politicians or key people, the response would likely be Tony Benn (an 'old Labour' left social democrat from an upper class background), Bob Crow (a trade unionist who everybody knows because of the Tube strikes) and Dennis Skinner (another 'old Labour' social democrat, self-proclaimed socialist from a working class background, but ultimately a reformist). The fact that pretty much nobody to the left of these three clearly reformist social democrats are in the consciousness of the working class in Britain says a lot about the failure of the left in the UK.

The sad reality is that most of the left in the UK cling on to the Labour Party, with the misguided belief that the party can somehow be transformed into a revolutionary socialist party. This is a horrific mistake based on nostalgia for old Labour, and plays right into the hands of the capitalists and business classes - with whom New Labour have just as many vested interests as the Conservatives, and this was true back in the old Labour days as well.

However, this situation arose because of the massive presence of of old Labour for the left in the UK, and the complete failure and irrelevance of the proper far left at winning over the working class. Depressing stuff.

[synthesis]

As for some of the good work he did, i'd imagine his anti-war, anti-fascism work over a long period is something that should be commended.

I originally read this as "condemned" and thought, finally, you've said something I agree with in this thread.


There are two things you need to know about Tony Benn. The first is that he always saw his primary role, as a politician, as that of an educator who was engaged in developing popular democratic ambitions and capacities. The second is that, again unlike most politicians, he actually took democracy seriously in terms of its potential for changing the world. These two rare qualities explain why he was among very few political leaders of the 20th century who became more rather than less radical over the course of their careers.

This might be the most pungently bourgeois paragraph I've read all month.


The interesting thing is that while Benn turned his back on the class interests of the elites and spend 40 years campaigning in the interests of socialism - in 35 years time the majority ultra-left internet warriors on this forum who are criticising Benn will be right-wingers or softy-softy liberals attacking the workers movement. Benn has done more in the past 35 years to further the cause of socialism than the vast majority of the internet warriors on here combined will do in their lifetime.

Finally, a quote we can pull out when we tell the Stalinists that their inane arguments to "relevance" are literally the flip side of those used to justify bourgeois social democracy.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I originally read this as "condemned" and thought, finally, you've said something I agree with in this thread.



We should be condemning people who are consistently anti-war and anti-fascist?

[ed miliband]

I think I made a point of not celebrating Thatcher's death, although as you know I had other reasons to celebrate that day.

fair enough, that was my honest mistake then. the point still stands - you were accusing us of basically being inhumane when we've done nothing of the sort of (again, understandable) gloating that went on when thatcher died: we're just pointing out that benn perhaps wasn't as wonderful as people are keen to make out.


I wasn't talking specifically about death etiquette anyway. Thatcher was a massive asshole and throughout her life provided political cover and indeed was at the head of capital's vicious attacks on labour as it sought to accumulate at labour's expense after the failure of the Keynesian consensus.

Whereas Tony Benn showed for a period of 30+ years that, although mis-guided, his person and politics were rooted in social justice, not capitalistic accumulation.

Perhaps i'm too wedded to middle class notions of British leftism, I don't know? But I see Tony Benn and Margaret Thatcher, for example, as two very much different entities.

but this is exactly what i was talking about, the logic is that because of where benn fell on the political spectrum - despite everything else - he was a "good guy". there's a clear value judgement here, you're willing to put aside personal differences, political criticisms, etc. because of an assumption on character you're making based on little more than the fact benn wore a red tie rather than a blue one.


You're very much framing that according to your own personal ideas, though. I'm not sure you have any evidence that Benn was so cynical as to "build a personal following by adopting soppy left politics".

I'd like to think i've always been able to critically assess any person, dead or alive. As i've said, there is a wealth of difference in many aspects between what I believe and what Tony Benn believed (notably, on the state and the nature of political power), but I would also say that there are enough similarities in terms of ideas about fairness, social justice etc. that I would want to pay my respects to him, whereas to take your Thatcher example, I can think of zero reasons i'd have any respect for her, personally or politically.

here's why i'm cynical about benn.

you say he "learnt from his mistakes" - we've spent a thread detailing just some of those "mistakes", all of them putting him in a position of violent and destructive power over the working class. did benn ever apologise for any of these "mistakes"? to my knowledge he never addressed any of them in particular. secondly, and more importantly, imo, he spent a lifetime hoping to get back into the very positions of power that lead to him attacking the working class in the first place.

can't you see the problem there? it's pretty obvious.


Yeah of course the ruling class and their crocodile tears are nauseating and hard to believe - even more so when you hear people like Johnson, Clegg, Cameron, Blair and Miliband expressing their condolences over Bob Crow too. Clearly fake.

It's a symptom, not a cause though. It's very much symptomatic that, at a time when the overwhelming majority of people seem to be paying respects to a politician that was actually alright (especially in comparison to most others), the left is keen to bring up 40 year old mud and arguments about 'anti-communism' as an excuse to have a go at a dead man.

the tears for crow may or may not have been fake, the tears for benn were most certainly very, very real. benn was beloved amongst the political classes, it's not a new thing - don't forget, this is a man who counted great men like ian paiseley and enoch powell amongst his friends, benn was as much a part of the ruling class as the rest of them.

who has mentioned "anti-communism" in this trhead anyway??



This might be the most pungently bourgeois paragraph I've read all month.


this is the thing, for all the claims that benn was a "socialist" - here and elsewhere, and from people who should know better - his primary political concern was always political and civil rights. parliamentary reform, republicanism, electoral reform, suffrage, etc. he was explicit about this. his "socialism" was little more than the nationalisation of key industries with workers' control, and again, he was explicit about not seeing socialism as an end goal, as "socialist society" (which he regarded as "theological" - rich for a christian "socialist"!), but as reforms. so the nhs was an example of socialism in action for benn, for example, and his vision didn't extend much beyond that.

but yeah, the spgb description of benn as a "radical liberal still fighting the battles of the 1860s" (or whatever the exact quote was) is just that: pungently bourgeois. benn wanted to finish the bourgeois revolution: wipe away the house of lords, do away with the monarchy, etc. etc.


We should be condemning people who are consistently anti-war and anti-fascist?

reb pointed out to you the problem with this already (and not to be a wanker, but i recommend reading something like gilles duave's 'fascism / antifascism' as an antidote to this sort of argument).

but to bring it closer to home, and try a different line of argument: "comrade delta was a tireless fighter against war and fascism" - you see the problem here? opposing war and fascism does not make someone good and / or "on our side".

[Left Voice]

but to bring it closer to home, and try a different line of argument: "comrade delta was a tireless fighter against war and fascism" - you see the problem here? opposing war and fascism does not make someone good and / or "on our side".
Without trying to get too involved in this, I think that example is taking it to extremes. The many issues with Tony Benn have been documented in this thread, but I think the so-called 'apologists' for him here aren't doing anything worse that saying that his heart was in the right place. People disagree with his methods - ultimately any reformist social democratic approach isn't going to sit well with a revolutionary socialist, nor are the misguided attacks on the working class that he later tried to make amends for.

But I'll tell you what - if Benn was tomorrow found guilty of sexual assault, things might be different. As it is, the debate is more about whether or not a left-of-Labour reformist really helped the working class or not. Different debate.

[ed miliband]

Without trying to get too involved in this, I think that example is taking it to extremes. The many issues with Tony Benn have been documented in this thread, but I think the so-called 'apologists' for him here aren't doing anything worse that saying that his heart was in the right place. People disagree with his methods - ultimately any reformist social democratic approach isn't going to sit well with a revolutionary socialist, nor are the misguided attacks on the working class that he later tried to make amends for.

But I'll tell you what - if Benn was tomorrow found guilty of sexual assault, things might be different. As it is, the debate is more about whether or not a left-of-Labour reformist really helped the working class or not. Different debate.

my point was a bit more abstract than a direct comparison of benn and comrade delta, i'm just saying that "they did good anti-war / anti-fascism work" is pretty weak grounds of defence imo. there are plenty of people who have done "good anti-war and anti-fascist" work and who are quite clearly not on "our side", or who probably aren't "good, decent men". delta was just the most obnoxious example of that, because it was precisely the defence that the swp used for him. there's a deeper point, which reb makes reference to - "anti-fascism" is common grounds for lining up alongside the bourgeoisie.

anyway, on this topic, benn's remarks on julian assange don't strike me as particularly "decent", a "non-consensual relationship is different from rape", apparently.

[Hit The North]

his "socialism" was little more than the nationalisation of key industries with workers' control, and again, he was explicit about not seeing socialism as an end goal, as "socialist society" (which he regarded as "theological" - rich for a christian "socialist"!), but as reforms. so the nhs was an example of socialism in action for benn, for example, and his vision didn't extend much beyond that.


A big problem with this thread is embodied in the bolded "little more" in your quote above. To ordinary workers that "little more" is a BIG DEAL. Mainly because it sounds radical to people who do not look at society through the lens of revolutionary socialism.

Here on revleft, though, we often appear to be looking at society through the wrong end of a telescope. The nuances between neo-liberalism, social democracy and democractic socialism are lost. All we see is 'bourgeois ideology' in its various guises. While this may be a correct analysis it does not chime with the perhaps narrower but more sensitised point of view of most working class people. Compared to the Tories, compared to New Labour, compared to the political discourses of the mass media, Benn's politics appear as miraculously radical.

[ed miliband]

A big problem with this thread is embodied in the bolded "little more" in your quote above. To ordinary workers that "little more" is a BIG DEAL. Mainly because it sounds radical to people who do not look at society through the lens of revolutionary socialism.

Here on revleft, though, we often appear to be looking at society through the wrong end of a telescope. The nuances between neo-liberalism, social democracy and democractic socialism are lost. All we see is 'bourgeois ideology' in its various guises. While this may be a correct analysis it does not chime with the perhaps narrower but more sensitised point of view of most working class people. Compared to the Tories, compared to New Labour, compared to the political discourses of the mass media, Benn's politics appear as miraculously radical.

no offence here, and i don't want to come across as ageist or anything, but i think this is a pretty detached view of things. i mean, broadly speaking i'm unconvinced that there are loads of "ordinary workers" who see things in this way - i think this is a political way of looking at "ordinary workers", the majority of whom are ultimately disinterested and disenchanted. but more specifically, i think younger workers feel completely alienated from this sort of politics: it doesn't appear to offer anything today, if it ever did. i think things now seem far more hopeless than they did 30 or 40 years ago, and old guys going on about renationalising the railways just seem to come from an entirely different universe.

if you made a similar argument about the way people view bob crow, i'd be inclined to agree with you. not benn though, whose influence and admiration was - at least from my experience - most high amongst already political people, usually though not exclusively middle class.

[Hit The North]

Point taken about the age thing, after all, Benn has been publically silent for nearly half a decade - a long time in the life of you young whippersnappers (without wishing to be ageist). And, of course, the opinion and feelings of middle aged workers are still relevant, are they not? But who is this "middle class" you mention?

Also anyone who seriously supported the politics of Bob Crow will most likely be aware of Benn, surely? They were part of the same tradition, after all.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/t1/1503395_728842270489582_401667670_n.jpg

[ed miliband]

Point taken about the age thing, after all, Benn has been publically silent for nearly half a decade - a long time in the life of you young whippersnappers (without wishing to be ageist). And, of course, the opinion and feelings of middle aged workers are still relevant, are they not? But who is this "middle class" you mention?

well yeah, of course, i don't want to make this a generational thing. but ultimately i don't by the idea that benn's politics hold much if any swathe in the historical memory of the class, old or young. if they do and i'm entirely wrong, i think it's a highly regrettable thing. i reckon yer man trotsky would have thought so, benn's politics being archetypical of the sort of fabian / christian influences trotsky said had such a negative impact on the british working class.

"middle class", well, i'd say that's two different / related things:

1. people with a certain level of, i suppose, "cultural capital" and education. this is a sociological definition that doesn't necessarily hold much use of communists, but one i think is occasionally relevant.

2. people who don't own the means of production but work jobs with an ideological / disciplinary function (teachers, social workers, academics, etc.)


Also anyone who seriously supported the politics of Bob Crow will most likely be aware of Benn, surely? They were part of the same tradition, after all.


we weren't talking about people who "seriously supported" the politics of either crow or benn though, but "ordinary workers" (a tricky concept, innit?). of course, it follows if somebody was deeply committed to the politics of either man, they'd be fond of the other and vice versa.

[synthesis]

We should be condemning people who are consistently anti-war and anti-fascist?

Seeing as they are the two primary sources of class collaborationism among the modern day left, yes.

[Left Voice]

I'm sure you will find more than a few antifa on this very forum who would disagree with you.

But if your point if that Tony Benn is a class collaborationist, then good point.

[synthesis]

I'm sure you will find more than a few antifa on this very forum who would disagree with you.

Yeah, and a big part of the reason they're class collaborationist is because they insist on collaborating with and eventually defending people like Tony Benn.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Yeah, and a big part of the reason they're class collaborationist is because they insist on collaborating with and eventually defending people like Tony Benn.

What's the issue with collaborating with people like Tony Benn on issues related to opposing imperialist wars and defeating the far-right? In the sense of, people of his politics, not of his class necessarily. But i'd hazard a guess that the majority of people who marched against Iraq, for example, were not people with a stake in the means of production.

Clearly, the existing left isn't going to do that in a vacuum...

[synthesis]

What's the issue with collaborating with people like Tony Benn on issues related to opposing imperialist wars and defeating the far-right? In the sense of, people of his politics, not of his class necessarily. But i'd hazard a guess that the majority of people who marched against Iraq, for example, were not people with a stake in the means of production.

Clearly, the existing left isn't going to do that in a vacuum...

The issue is that advocating that people of all classes unite for a "common cause," whether it be nationalism, fascism, imperialism, anti-fascism or anti-imperialism, is diametrically opposed to the entire framework of working class politics, of a class for and in itself. You say that socialists should collaborate with people "not of his class necessarily," but class collaboration means collaborating with his class, necessarily.

And this whole idea of a "left" collaborating with the bourgeoisie against "the far-right" is exactly why a lot of people with working class politics don't want to call themselves leftists.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The issue is that advocating that people of all classes unite for a "common cause," whether it be nationalism, fascism, imperialism, anti-fascism or anti-imperialism, is diametrically opposed to the entire framework of working class politics, of a class for and in itself. You say that socialists should collaborate with people "not of his class necessarily," but class collaboration means collaborating with his class, necessarily.

And this whole idea of a "left" collaborating with the bourgeoisie against "the far-right" is exactly why a lot of people with working class politics don't want to call themselves leftists.

Fair point, perhaps so on the anti-fascism thing especially.

However, the issue here is more of strategy rather than political outlook; pursuing UAF-style strategy might ultimately be un-palatable to revolutionary socialists for obvious reasons, but to actually be a committed anti-fascist (in deeds as opposed to just in words) is still actually something worth defending. I think the situation in Greece actually shows the very dangerous consequences of forgetting this.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

my point was a bit more abstract than a direct comparison of benn and comrade delta, i'm just saying that "they did good anti-war / anti-fascism work" is pretty weak grounds of defence imo. there are plenty of people who have done "good anti-war and anti-fascist" work and who are quite clearly not on "our side", or who probably aren't "good, decent men". delta was just the most obnoxious example of that, because it was precisely the defence that the swp used for him. there's a deeper point, which reb makes reference to - "anti-fascism" is common grounds for lining up alongside the bourgeoisie.

I don't want to really open up two arguments in the same thread, but i'm not really sure that this idea of 'guilt by association' is a very strong, nor appealing argument at all. The fact that someone like Martin Smith is an anti-fascist and anti-war advocate does not belittle that someone else is an anti-fascist or anti-war advocate. The fact that Martin Smith is a lot of negative things does not really have anything to do with anyone else's views on fascism or war.


anyway, on this topic, benn's remarks on julian assange don't strike me as particularly "decent", a "non-consensual relationship is different from rape", apparently.

Yeah, that was pretty shitty tbh.

Also, i'm not sure where you get this idea that teachers and social workers are 'middle class'. I think you're forgetting that, totally apart from having this mythological 'disciplinary' function, teacher's have an education function. I can't really think of many other more effective ways of transmitting ideas of social justice and solidarity than through education, in and out of the classroom.

[ed miliband]

I don't want to really open up two arguments in the same thread, but i'm not really sure that this idea of 'guilt by association' is a very strong, nor appealing argument at all. The fact that someone like Martin Smith is an anti-fascist and anti-war advocate does not belittle that someone else is an anti-fascist or anti-war advocate. The fact that Martin Smith is a lot of negative things does not really have anything to do with anyone else's views on fascism or war.

it's clearly not a "guilt by association" argument though. i'm not saying all anti-war and anti-fascist activists are like martin smith, i'm saying that your argument in defence wasn't in my mind particularly strong, nor one a communist should make (for the reasons reb and synthesis give).


Also, i'm not sure where you get this idea that teachers and social workers are 'middle class'. I think you're forgetting that, totally apart from having this mythological 'disciplinary' function, teacher's have an education function. I can't really think of many other more effective ways of transmitting ideas of social justice and solidarity than through education, in and out of the classroom.

i do think, i should be clear, that teachers are working class, and i'm not going to go down some shitty "jailers of the mind" argument. neither am i going to romanticise the role of educators in capitalist society though, i completely disagree with your notion of teaching as a means of "transmitting ideas of social justice and solidarity", but perhaps that's down to my personal experience of teaching. i think most teachers do a good job, one i certainly couldn't do, and i have a lot of respect for good teachers, but i do think the role of education in our society is rather more compromised than you'd have it. but what job isn't?

hit the north asked me what i meant by "middle class" and i pointed to two definitions i'd use, both highly flawed, but then "middle class" is obviously a highly flawed concept in and of itself. describing teachers as middle class wasn't a moralistic judgment or sneer, nor was it a denial of the fact that (most) teachers are working class, broadly speaking.

[Firebrand]

I met Tony Benn once and tbh he seemed like a pretty decent old guy. Yes his methods may have been flawed, yes his belief in parliamentary politics may have been ill founded, but based on his writings and speeches his ideology seems to have been founded on empathy. How many major influential politicians can you name that give the impression of genuinely caring about other people.
I think a lot of activists lose sight of that. The most important thing isn't your line on this, that, or the other ideological position, it isn't the decisions that you have made be they good or bad. The most important thing is that you care for other human beings and want what is best for them. I can't read minds so I can't say for certain, but everything I've read by Tony Benn indicates to me that no matter what his flaws may have been he cared about other people, and he never stopped caring and I think that when someone like that dies, the world becomes a worse place. I for one am sorry that he is dead.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

i do think, i should be clear, that teachers are working class, and i'm not going to go down some shitty "jailers of the mind" argument. neither am i going to romanticise the role of educators in capitalist society though, i completely disagree with your notion of teaching as a means of "transmitting ideas of social justice and solidarity", but perhaps that's down to my personal experience of teaching. i think most teachers do a good job, one i certainly couldn't do, and i have a lot of respect for good teachers, but i do think the role of education in our society is rather more compromised than you'd have it. but what job isn't?

hit the north asked me what i meant by "middle class" and i pointed to two definitions i'd use, both highly flawed, but then "middle class" is obviously a highly flawed concept in and of itself. describing teachers as middle class wasn't a moralistic judgment or sneer, nor was it a denial of the fact that (most) teachers are working class, broadly speaking.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough. You may as well have just stayed with the 'middle class = cultural capital' argument. For obvious reasons, teachers (particularly humanities, English, and language teachers) are imbued with a higher than average amount of cultural capital, at least those who want to be good teachers are. So in cultural terms that would make many of us middle class, even if under the Marxian definition we are working class.

The role of education in capitalist society is dictated by the capitalist class, as it is they who influence political power and, above all, provide the financial and other resources that make formal schooling possible. I'm not going to pretend that every teacher is some hero who goes against the grain and preaches social justice, far from it, but it is also true that progressive and radical schools of education have throughout the past 100 years been increasingly influential, from Dewey to Friere and more. I'd like to think that there is a role for social justice in education, and that actually, as social attitudes generally have a lag effect, that there is a social purpose for education, even if it may not be seen for 10-20 years after said education has taken place.

[Loony Le Fist]

Oh sorry, I couldn't hear you over all the fucks I am not giving.

It's obvious you don't. I think it's made clear by the ratio of total posts you have to the number of thanks you get. If you did, you would actually have contributed more things worth thanking.