Carribean nations demand apologies and compensation from Western nations.

[Das war einmal]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/09/caribbean-nations-demand-slavery-reparations

Is this reasonable? Can we be hold accountable for the actions done by our great-great-great-grandfathers? (assuming they were involved, most likely not) Most people in western nations didn't really got any benefits from the slave trade, the profits made back then were not invested in say, social benefits for example.

I mean it's not like we can't make an apology, but I don't feel the need the bear the guilt what some scumbags did 300 years ago, just because they happens to be born in the same area. All European nations weren't democracies then so they didn't represent the people anyway.

The Caribbean nations hold the European nations accountable for the economic mishaps of today. This is also far fetched in my opinion. It is reasonable to assume that there are negative effects today that could be the result of former western involvement but it's far to simplistic and frankly a bit embarrassing to claim that the entire economic failures of the Caribbeans today are the sole result of the slave trade back then.

It seems like a half hearted attempt to cover up for problems like the massive corruption done by Caribbean politicians. Next to that it's rather odd that they want a country like Portugal to pay up, while the Portuguese are suffering from austerity. Brazil actually lends money to Portugal, ironic as it may be, because their economy fares a lot better today.

There are more reasonable examples in which Western nations should be held accountable, like the current state of African nations, who have been plundered much more recently compared to the situation portrayed by the Caribbean nations.

[radiocaroline]

Kenyans successfully got compensation from the British government for the massacres during the Mau Mau rebellion in the mid 20th century, so it's not a completely isolated story.

People paying for the mistakes of government is out of order, however, regardless of the context.

I think a much more sensible idea would be to issue interest free long term loans so that these countries with terrible economies can get back on their feet and establish some stability in post-colonial countries where stability and continuity have seldom existed.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I think a much more sensible idea would be to issue interest free long term loans so that these countries with terrible economies can get back on their feet and establish some stability in post-colonial countries where stability and continuity have seldom existed.

I'll up your post by putting forward subsidized trade, with the formerly plundered countries being allowed to enact protectionist measures for their domestic markets while having trade surpluses with their former colonial masters. I wouldn't shed any tear for the resulting plight of anybody in developed countries' agriculture sector except farm workers proper.

[Das war einmal]

Kenyans successfully got compensation from the British government for the massacres during the Mau Mau rebellion in the mid 20th century, so it's not a completely isolated story.

Weren't those people victims themselves or direct relatives of victims?


People paying for the mistakes of government is out of order, however, regardless of the context.Depends in what order the people can be hold responsible for their government's actions. I do think people in countries with parliamentary democracies at least should feel a certain kind of responsibility. Certainly in which they didn't do anything to resist the actions of their government, be it by voting for the ruling parties or not participating in any action to prevent it.


I think a much more sensible idea would be to issue interest free long term loans so that these countries with terrible economies can get back on their feet and establish some stability in post-colonial countries where stability and continuity have seldom existed.Agreed. Also nullify the interest they have on existing loans.

[Das war einmal]

I'll up your post by putting forward subsidized trade, with the formerly plundered countries being allowed to enact protectionist measures for their domestic markets while having trade surpluses with their former colonial masters.

This is what de facto state capitalism really is. Not that I mind, if it serves the interest of the people. Regardless the IMF has forbidden most of these practices in much of the developing countries (specifically Africa)

[Die Neue Zeit]

You've got the wrong organization. That would be the World Trade Organization, not the International Monetary Fund. Screw both, of course, but it's the WTO that's relevant here.

[brigadista]

Lift visa restrictions

[Das war einmal]

You've got the wrong organization. That would be the World Trade Organization, not the International Monetary Fund. Screw both, of course, but it's the WTO that's relevant here.

Then my source was incorrect. Not like there's any real difference between the two organization who both have their HQ in Washington. Two headed monster with the same body.


Lift visa restrictions

Not sure. Although I'm all for the freedom of being able to live where you want, I do have some reservations about the total lack of restrictions.

Anyway, the demands of the Caribean governments (done by the politicians) seem like some sort of extortion to be honest, to cover up for the corruption and internal mismanagement.

[synthesis]

Although I'm all for the freedom of being able to live where you want, I do have some reservations about the total lack of restrictions.

What reservations are those?

[Das war einmal]

What reservations are those?

The results of immigration in the Netherlands. Better to increase the standard of living for people in the Carribeans over there. It's impossible to coordinate a good integration process if there are no restrictions. People need time to learn the language and at the moment, it's very difficult to get a job.

[La Guaneña]

Are you saying that colonialism and imperialism have zero or close to zero influence on the current state of the Latin American, Carribean and African countries today? Oh please, centuries of exploitation, plunder, ethnocide, cultural massacre, enviromental devastation and the dependence of our markets on the restrictions imposed by the "first world" have everything to do with the lack of industrialization, infrastructure and welfare.

Interest-free loans and subsidized trade are the minimum... Understand it as a formal apology, because if Latin America wanted to actually charge back all that gold with updated interest rates... Europe would be even more fucked.

[Das war einmal]

Are you saying that colonialism and imperialism have zero or close to zero influence on the current state of the Latin American, Carribean and African countries today? Oh please, centuries of exploitation, plunder, ethnocide, cultural massacre, enviromental devastation and the dependence of our markets on the restrictions imposed by the "first world" have everything to do with the lack of industrialization, infrastructure and welfare.This claim is about the results of slavery specifically, not colonialism nor imperialism. I may not have been entirely clear on that. So that's basically about moving slaves from Africa to the Caribbeans. This was a horrible phenomenon make no mistake, but how can you translate this into a billion dollar claim? It's the explanation these Caribbean politicians give that are hard to swallow. With the same arguments they could also hold todays governments of African nations accountable because of tribes that lived there selling these slaves to European traders in the first place.

If they indeed want to make a claim concerning colonialism and imperialism well then they should come with a better story then this.


Interest-free loans and subsidized trade are the minimum... Understand it as a formal apology, because if Latin America wanted to actually charge back all that gold with updated interest rates... Europe would be even more fucked.

A formal apology from who? Let them make a list of organizations or something like that.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

This claim is about the results of slavery specifically, not colonialism nor imperialism.

Oh, right, because those things aren't inextricably entangled? Chew on that one for a few minutes and try again. Look at Haiti: Slaves rise up and establish a republic, only to face a demand for crippling reparations backed by the guns of all of Europe. So, subsequent exploitation of Haiti a result of slavery, or "just" (ha) colonialism and imperialism? When Doc Duvalier was installed? When it was invaded and had a puppet regime set up in 2004? Can any of it be understood outside the context created by the slave trade? I would suggest that, no, it can't. Pick any other nation in the region and repeat steps until you start to see patterns emerging. It shouldn't take much reading, unless your sources are pretty crap.


So that's basically about moving slaves from Africa to the Caribbeans. This was a horrible phenomenon make no mistake, but how can you translate this into a billion dollar claim?

Probably you could translate it into a lot more than a billion dollars, in terms of even just the direct profits of the slave trade in today's dollars. Of course, as I suggested above, we also have to understand the subsequent history of the Caribbean in the context of the slave trade, so . . .


It's the explanation these Caribbean politicians give that are hard to swallow. With the same arguments they could also hold todays governments of African nations accountable because of tribes that lived there selling these slaves to European traders in the first place.

:rolleyes: Oh, yes, what a reasonable proposal given the current arrangement of power in the world. Not at all a transparently derailing crock of white supremacist apologia. Very well done.


A formal apology from who? Let them make a list of organizations or something like that.

Uh, in the article you posted they specifically name "former slave-trading nations including the UK, France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and Denmark." I'm going to assume that, in context, they're referring to those states and not "nations" in some ethnic or other sense. So, that's sounds like a clear list of organizations to me.

[tachosomoza]

People paying for the mistakes of government is out of order, however, regardless of the context.

I think a much more sensible idea would be to issue interest free long term loans so that these countries with terrible economies can get back on their feet and establish some stability in post-colonial countries where stability and continuity have seldom existed.

Is this the Daily Kos? Interest free loans? That's how you recompense centuries of murder, forced labor, and rape? Interest free loans? This is base apologism and cowardice.

People paying for the mistakes of government is out of order? But it's fine for people to benefit from the industrial progress that the West has made on the backs of slaves who generated the capital for that industrialization? Slaves paid for the development of Europe, now all you have to offer their descendents is a fucking loan?

Yes, I'll say it. Europe is responsible for the dysfunction of Africa and the Caribbean. Europe installed puppet dictators who sapped the wealth and represented their interests. Europe stole their resources. Europe killed them. Europe enslaved them. Europe turned one group against another, starting massive conflicts lasting to this very day.

[radiocaroline]

Is this the Daily Kos? Interest free loans? That's how you recompense centuries of murder, forced labor, and rape? Interest free loans? This is base apologism and cowardice.



People paying for the mistakes of government is out of order? But it's fine for people to benefit from the industrial progress that the West has made on the backs of slaves who generated the capital for that industrialization? Slaves paid for the development of Europe, now all you have to offer their descendents is a fucking loan?



Yes, I'll say it. Europe is responsible for the dysfunction of Africa and the Caribbean. Europe installed puppet dictators who sapped the wealth and represented their interests. Europe stole their resources. Europe killed them. Europe enslaved them. Europe turned one group against another, starting massive conflicts lasting to this very day.


Yes because I really was making an apologist comment...

It's called being realistic mate

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Seems like a case of charging against windmills. They won't get reparations and if they did, economic elites would find some way to benefit from it.

Of course the descendants of slaves should have economic help as far as development is concerned, but asking for cash reparations is unrealistic and based on a Capitalist paradigm of alleviating historical wrongdoing.

[Das war einmal]

Oh, right, because those things aren't inextricably entangled? Chew on that one for a few minutes and try again. Look at Haiti: Slaves rise up and establish a republic, only to face a demand for crippling reparations backed by the guns of all of Europe. So, subsequent exploitation of Haiti a result of slavery, or "just" (ha) colonialism and imperialism? When Doc Duvalier was installed? When it was invaded and had a puppet regime set up in 2004? Can any of it be understood outside the context created by the slave trade? I would suggest that, no, it can't. Pick any other nation in the region and repeat steps until you start to see patterns emerging. It shouldn't take much reading, unless your sources are pretty crap.

Stop making things up that are not being said. Of course slave trade has it's influences in today's situation but it's shortsighted if not outright bullshit that this is the sole reason for today's problems. Corrupt politicians are a major contribution to the f*cked up situation there aswell. This has nothing to do with justice, because the same politicians are brining this up to cover up their incompetence.




Probably you could translate it into a lot more than a billion dollars, in terms of even just the direct profits of the slave trade in today's dollars. Of course, as I suggested above, we also have to understand the subsequent history of the Caribbean in the context of the slave trade, so . . .
Ok where have those billions gone to then? Slave traders didn't pay taxes you know.



:rolleyes: Oh, yes, what a reasonable proposal given the current arrangement of power in the world. Not at all a transparently derailing crock of white supremacist apologia. Very well done.It's not reasonable that's the whole point. So is demanding compensation from nations about slave trade. The East India Company was a capitalist state-supported company.




Uh, in the article you posted they specifically name "former slave-trading nations including the UK, France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and Denmark." I'm going to assume that, in context, they're referring to those states and not "nations" in some ethnic or other sense. So, that's sounds like a clear list of organizations to me.Well it just so happens to be that these nations are not 1-on-1 the same today as they were back then. The problem that I have with this is how far back do you want to go to keep states today accountable of what people did, like in this case 300 years ago? It's just as bizarre as holding Mongolia today accountable for the destruction of the 14th century hordes. Well to be fair, there are nationalists in eastern Europe that actually make this claim.

That's the problem here. These states weren't democracies at that time and the majority of the people in Europe where very poor and mistreated. True they weren't slaves, they were serfs.

[Manic Impressive]

One national bourgeoisie asking another national bourgeoisie for money. Nothing that should concern workers.

[Das war einmal]

Is this the Daily Kos? Interest free loans? That's how you recompense centuries of murder, forced labor, and rape? Interest free loans? This is base apologism and cowardice.

People paying for the mistakes of government is out of order? But it's fine for people to benefit from the industrial progress that the West has made on the backs of slaves who generated the capital for that industrialization? Slaves paid for the development of Europe, now all you have to offer their descendents is a fucking loan?

Yes, I'll say it. Europe is responsible for the dysfunction of Africa and the Caribbean. Europe installed puppet dictators who sapped the wealth and represented their interests. Europe stole their resources. Europe killed them. Europe enslaved them. Europe turned one group against another, starting massive conflicts lasting to this very day.

This does not contribute anything. How can you blame a continent, something that is very abstract to begin with for all these atrocities. What do you want to achieve? Should Europeans today feel guilty about this? What about todays reality: we see that China now supports dictators and steals resources in Africa aswel. Should we blame the Chinese civilians?


It's true that industrialism was funded by colonies but the common European didn't benefit from this at all. While Africans were exploited on the cotton fields, Europeans were exploited in mines and factories. Only after WW2 the situation started to improve vastly and this was more thanks to redistribution of wealth (partly out of fear for communism rising in western Europe).

The people from Europe should be made aware of the consequences of slave trade, but should realize they can't be hold accountable just because some white rich men that happen to be born in the same piece of land hundreds of years ago made terrible decisions. We should condemn these men. In this sense making apologies on their behalf feels weird to me.

[Das war einmal]

One national bourgeoisie asking another national bourgeoisie for money. Nothing that should concern workers.

I agree, it should not concern us, but the reality is that many people in the Netherlands feel like they are being hold accountable. The common feeling is if our government would pay up, it's mostly with tax money paid by our workers (as the biggest contributers to todays misery, like Shell, pay zero taxes).