Racism

[Jay NotApplicable]

http://www.jlakoda.com/racism-2/

Edited to put graphic image in spoiler tags - Quail
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/85kd3cV2jrD-SAXIPwGF4vDoCFhUfm8tfRTzE0V8dw33Bb0IYbfGdEBWmIdHkd GNFDYRA_TNnkQp2ZlLP05MIKtEHxylgET5ysR1ipCmw2SqzVfd WK7Pkb6lsY6ysg
(This 14 year old boy was mutilated and murdered for saying "Hey baby" to a white woman. (Emmett Till - 1955))

I’m sick of racism. I’m white, and I know I haven’t experienced racism in any way that’s at all comparable to the awful injustices that many black people have had to go through in the past. But I do experience racism. Some black people judge me and tell me that they resent me simply because I’m white. I’m told that I’m resented along with all the other white people. I’m lumped into a category. This racism makes me sad and angry. I’m not racist. I don’t hate people because of the color of their skin. Yet I’m stereotyped. It’s unfair. I want to love everybody, and I want to be loved by everybody, regardless of skin color.

Now I am aware of the reason this racism exists, and I’ll try to explain it here. In what was typical of the time, Emmett Till (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till) was a fourteen year old black boy when, in 1955, he was mutilated and murdered for saying “Hey baby” to a white woman. And there were many many more black people who were tortured and murdered for similar petty grievances. Black people lived their lives in fear of white people. Black people had to watch what they said around white people. They did not have freedom of speech. And the police were not on their side. Often times even today the police are not on their side. That’s real terrorism; something most white people have never experienced. Most of you have no idea what Martin Luther King Jr. actually did (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/29/1011562/-Most-of-you-have-no-idea-what-Martin-Luther-King-actually-did#). He did not simply force the government to treat everyone equally. He helped to destroy the terrorism that was everyday life for black people. Black people are now free to do the things that white people have always taken for granted.

So I sympathize with black people who are racist towards white people, even though I don’t agree with them. They are racist because of injustice, rather than out of pride.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bCTwKQnfqhFJQ4iyJVM1KZGGYmh2UBGlHCj7NeeuctJmcAcDPf-NVK4adAq0uJhA9xRIgqS2wVP7XpNH2iooeObP9BrOBDbAP-g8kHp8aBqfcHROtLLKn84ucRV9FQ
(Philadelphia Black Panthers forced to strip by the police.)

But it’s still racism. Please don’t judge me by the color of my skin. Stop viewing this world as black and white. Put your stereotypes in the garbage, and just love people for who they are. I love you. Please love me back without taking into account the color of my skin.

[tachosomoza]

People don't hate you because you're white, people hate you because you say and do stupid shit like not know the difference between racism and prejudice and whine about your feelings being hurt by the big scary mean black people, who are actually being KILLED by racism.

[Jay NotApplicable]

People don't hate you because you're white, people hate you because you say and do stupid shit like not know the difference between racism and prejudice and whine about your feelings being hurt by the big scary mean black people, who are actually being KILLED by racism.

I think the problem is that there's not enough love in the world. And you're exemplifying it.

[Jay NotApplicable]

...like not know the difference between racism and prejudice...

Please correct me if I'm wrong. How did I use the terms incorrectly?

[Rosa Partizan]

Let's see if I get this straight in English.

Racism is structural and it reflects relations of power. You as a white man will always be considered supwrior by society. You are less likely to get in trouble for your color of skin. No Zimmerman will haunt you down the street. No one will change the sidewalk when they see you. No one will suppose you are less educated because of your color of skin. There are chances you will have only because you are white. These structures will not be eliminated by some black people discriminating against whites. Being black means being disadvantaged per se in many aspects of life, something that a white person will never encounter.

[tachosomoza]

I think the problem is that there's not enough love in the world. And you're exemplifying it.

Love? Please, keep your emotionalist, weak, impotent liberal bullshit to yourself. We don't need the bourgeois to love us, we need them to perish.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Edgy as fuck bro

[Jay NotApplicable]

There are multiple definitions of racism. I was using the broader definition of racism, which is racial prejudice. But I do see how the terms could be better used to convey my message, and I've edited my blog entry to reflect that. I am now using "prejudice" in place of "racism." Thanks.

[Jay NotApplicable]

Love? Please, keep your emotionalist, weak...

Love isn't weak. Love is strong. It's easy to hate your enemy. But it takes strength to love your enemy.

[Derendscools]

Love? Please, keep your emotionalist, weak, impotent liberal bullshit to yourself. We don't need the bourgeois to love us, we need them to perish.

I guess I'm a emotionalist, weak, impotent liberal?

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Love? Please, keep your emotionalist, weak, impotent liberal bullshit to yourself. We don't need the bourgeois to love us, we need them to perish.

Whoa, I almost got cut by that edge.

Quit trying to sound tough over the internet. Overt aggression makes you look like a fool and a coward.

[Tenka]

Whoa, I almost got cut by that edge.

Quit trying to sound tough over the internet. Overt aggression makes you look like a fool and a coward.

To whom? To people who've been taught that only fools and cowards say "bullshit" and "perish" on the internet? I don't understand why people are getting on his case for that post. It sounded very reasonable to me.

[Derendscools]

It sounded very reasonable to me.

Sure...

[Quail]

I think it's pretty justifiable for people of colour to feel mistrustful and/or resentful of white people, when in all likelihood they have spent their whole life having white people treating them badly. I don't think that's racism at all. I understand completely why for example women of colour don't trust the feminist movement because generally white feminists have been pretty shitty on race issues. I think at some point we will get to a stage where people in maginalised groups don't feel that way, but until racism stops being something that is ingrained into society that won't happen. It takes time to build trust and unity.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Love isn't weak. Love is strong. It's easy to hate your enemy. But it takes strength to love your enemy.

There is no love. Typical hippie christian arsehattery with the love and blargh, nauseating gibberish to the fucking max. Hate the sin, love the sinner!

It takes strength and endurance to hate. It drains the energy, it hurts just as much as love; in-fact, are not love and hate related, after all? Intense dislike. Hate the people who fuck with you, hate the people who abuse you, hate the people who wrong you constantly and hate the system that sits ontop of you. Hate, not love. Cut their love-beads, stab their hearts. Strangle, not hug; slaughter, not embolden their wicked hearts. Out of hate and anger and rage grows the desire to topple, not to embrace the sickness that surrounds us, to destroy not to preserve its unjustifiable atrocities.

They won't be kind to us because we say we love them. They won't love us for it, though they will love us for not doing anything worthwhile to thwart their reign. Fuck this hippie shit.

[Quail]

Also can we please stay on topic please. This is a general verbal warning.

[liberlict]

I guess I'm a emotionalist, weak, impotent liberal?

Guess I am too.

[BIXX]

I'm in the camp that "love thy enemy" is some liberal shit.

Loving my enemy gets me stabbed in the back. So I say fuck that.

On the subject of racism: minorities ARE NOT racist towards whites. The racial prejudices of our civilization benefit whites, and harms minorities. This gives white folks some entitled bullshit feelings about themselves, and gives minorities a good fucking reason to mistrust white folks.

[liberlict]

On the subject of racism: minorities ARE NOT racist towards whites. The racial prejudices of our civilization benefit whites, and harms minorities. This gives white folks some entitled bullshit feelings about themselves, and gives minorities a good fucking reason to mistrust white folks.


Er, sorry to be blunt, but this is just utter shit. Every race has its racists. I don't know what world you are living in but it's clearly not this one.

[Diirez]

Blacks were ripped from their homes, families torn apart, sent to a new country to be whipped and forced to work. When they were freed from that they were beaten, oppressed, murdered...etc. They were treated like subhumans.

I agree, racism is bad regardless of the color, but honestly, how the fuck are they not supposed to be mad still? Racism is a huge problem from white to black in America still and our white socities are constantly fucking up black societies. They're just supposed to look the other way and pretend nothing's happening?

And by the sounds of it, you sound like someone who would hold their items close to them when a black man or woman enters the same elevator as you. So maybe it's your attitude that's making them resentful of you.

[Tenka]

Er, sorry to be blunt, but this is just utter shit. Every race has its racists. I don't know what world you are living in but it's clearly not this one.

Individuals, regardless of skin colour, can be prejudiced against others of certain skin colours. This is not Racism as I have come to understand it. Racism is institutional; white prejudices against black people are planted by, and in turn reënforce, the institution. If one considers any black person's prejudice against white people to be the equivalent, one has failed to see context.

[Derendscools]

I'm in the camp that "love thy enemy" is some liberal shit.

Loving my enemy gets me stabbed in the back. So I say fuck that.

On the subject of racism: minorities ARE NOT racist towards whites. The racial prejudices of our civilization benefit whites, and harms minorities. This gives white folks some entitled bullshit feelings about themselves, and gives minorities a good fucking reason to mistrust white folks.
No.



And by the sounds of it, you sound like someone who would hold their items close to them when a black man or woman enters the same elevator as you. So maybe it's your attitude that's making them resentful of you.

Nope.

[Sinister Intents]

No.



Nope.

Why? BTW I'm with EchoShock on this.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Saying that minorities are incapable of being racist is a racist statement, yet nobody sees the irony.

Newsflash people. WE ARE AGAINST ALL RACISM.

Institutional racism should be at the forefront of what we must stop, obviously. NOBODY here supports institutional racism. But it is a bit frustrating when people say "oh minorities can't be racist." The DEFINITION of racism is prejudice towards a particular people because of their race. No, of course white people don't experience institutional racism. Nobody is trying to claim that they do, that would be the dumbest statement ever. But some people are just being belligerently unreasonable, as if people should feel guilty for the race they were born into.

[tachosomoza]

Love isn't weak. Love is strong. It's easy to hate your enemy. But it takes strength to love your enemy.

Did loving the enemy stop the Jews from being slaughtered in the holocaust? Did loving the enemy stop Martin Luther King from being murdered, or gain blacks basic rights? No. It took rivers of blood to end slavery in the United States and the Holocaust.

Loving your enemy benefits none but the enemy, and this is Christian bullshit that was taught to slaves.

[liberlict]

Individuals, regardless of skin colour, can be prejudiced against others of certain skin colours. This is not Racism as I have come to understand it. Racism is institutional; white prejudices against black people are planted by, and in turn reënforce, the institution. If one considers any black person's prejudice against white people to be the equivalent, one has failed to see context.

I think this is a pretty weird definition of racism. But you're entitled to it I suppose.

[Tenka]

Saying that minorities are incapable of being racist is a racist statement, yet nobody sees the irony.

Newsflash people. WE ARE AGAINST ALL RACISM.

Institutional racism should be at the forefront of what we must stop, obviously. NOBODY here supports institutional racism. But it is a bit frustrating when people say "oh minorities can't be racist." The DEFINITION of racism is prejudice towards a particular people because of their race. No, of course white people don't experience institutional racism. Nobody is trying to claim that they do, that would be the dumbest statement ever. But some people are just being belligerently unreasonable, as if people should feel guilty for the race they were born into.

Where? Incidentally, are you someone who finds "cracker" offensive? I get the feeling from this post that you would be.

[Derendscools]

Why? BTW I'm with EchoShock on this.

Theirs always good in all men and women, if just a normal person like me or you would consider themselves on the left or right, I have no reason for blind hate.

And I promise you I have never or will never pass some judgment on a fellow person based on their looks, Ill always get to know you first.

[liberlict]

Saying that minorities are incapable of being racist is a racist statement, yet nobody sees the irony.




Actually I was going to say that. Good point. :laugh:

[Derendscools]

Did loving the enemy stop the Jews from being slaughtered in the holocaust? Did loving the enemy stop Martin Luther King from being murdered, or gain blacks basic rights? No. It took rivers of blood to end slavery in the United States and the Holocaust.

Loving your enemy benefits none but the enemy, and this is Christian bullshit that was taught to slaves.

Of course people should fight back when they're be attacked, we need to defend our rights.

[tachosomoza]

I have no reason for blind hate.



A slave hating his master is not blind hate, as a matter of fact, it is natural and expected. Bourgeois and proletarian, slave and master, lord and serf, colonizer and colonized are natural enemies and the one who assumes for himself the superior position knows this and behaves accordingly.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Where? Incidentally, are you someone who finds "cracker" offensive? I get the feeling from this post that you would be.

"Cracker" is a term used to conjure images of white people beating black people and enslaving them. So yes I find it fucking offensive to be labelled a racist. You don't?

[tachosomoza]

So yes I find it fucking offensive to be labelled a racist. You don't?

Oh, the poor little white boy's feelings are hurt by the mean darkness calling him a name! Would you like a kiss and a pat on your head?

Oppressed minorities don't exist to salve the feelings of the oppressor group and beneficiaries of institutional racism. If you are a true ally, listen and behave like one, don't whine about your feelings. Someone called you a cracker? Guess what, a white cop will call a black or hispanic a racial slur AND plant evidence on him AND taze him AND blow his fucking brains out AND get away with it.

[Sinister Intents]

"Cracker" is a term used to conjure images of white people beating black people and enslaving them. So yes I find it fucking offensive to be labelled a racist. You don't?

It's no where near as offensive as 'Nigger' I get very pissed off when people use that word, I take no offense to 'cracka' I have a friend who calls me that because I'm white, he's cool, one of the few friends at college, I find I don't get along with other 'white' people and that's because there are so many fucking racists.

[BIXX]

"Cracker" is a term used to conjure images of white people beating black people and enslaving them. So yes I find it fucking offensive to be labelled a racist. You don't?


Normally, you are only called a cracker if you're being... You know... A cracker.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Oh, the poor little white boy's feelings are hurt by the mean darkness calling him a name! Would you like a kiss and a pat on your head?

Oppressed minorities don't exist to salve the feelings of the oppressor group and beneficiaries of institutional racism.

Lol, the mean darkness? Poor little white boy? You seem a bit racist to me.

Also, I didn't bring up the use of the word, Tenka did. I'm not going to say "hey everyone you can call me a cracker, I love being called a racist." No, I do not want a kiss on the head, lol.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

It's no where near as offensive as 'Nigger' I get very pissed off when people use that word, I take no offense to 'cracka' I have a friend who calls me that because I'm white, he's cool, one of the few friends at college, I find I don't get along with other 'white' people and that's because there are so many fucking racists.

Nah, don't get me wrong, I don't give a shit if someone calls me that casually as a greeting. That doesn't offend me in the slightest, but Tenka seemed to mean it from purely its original connotation.

[liberlict]

"Cracker" is a term used to conjure images of white people beating black people and enslaving them. So yes I find it fucking offensive to be labelled a racist. You don't?

I don't actually find it offensive. To me it's just another word like 'dickhead', 'wanker', 'fuckface' or whatever. A meaningless insult to be ignored.

'White c*unt' and 'white dog' are the preferred slurs of the racist minorities in my part of the world. These don't offend me either. Not sure why actually. I'd be offended if someone criticized my character. Trying to make me feel bad for being white is just not gonna work.

[Sinister Intents]

Nah, don't get me wrong, I don't give a shit if someone calls me that casually as a greeting. That doesn't offend me in the slightest, but Tenka seemed to mean it from purely its original connotation.

Alright, half of the town that I live near are people who wanna be 'crackas' There are very serious Nazi's in my area who would love nothing more than to enslave 'blacks' I hate the fascists and conservatives in my area and they deserve to be called cracka for being racist assholes who fantasize about enslaving and murdering people

[Derendscools]

Oh, the poor little white boy's feelings are hurt by the mean darkness calling him a name! Would you like a kiss and a pat on your head?

Oppressed minorities don't exist to salve the feelings of the oppressor group and beneficiaries of institutional racism. If you are a true ally, listen and behave like one, don't whine about your feelings. Someone called you a cracker? Guess what, a white cop will call a black or hispanic a racial slur AND plant evidence on him AND taze him AND blow his fucking brains out AND get away with it.

Do not worry, if you need a kiss and a hug, I will give you one ,any day. What do you mean by
Oppressed minorities don't exist to salve the feelings of the oppressor group and beneficiaries of institutional racism.
I have feelings for everyone, don't you?

[Tenka]

"Cracker" is a term used to conjure images of white people beating black people and enslaving them. So yes I find it fucking offensive to be labelled a racist. You don't?

I actually wasn't aware of what images it was supposed to conjure up. Just that it's pretty silly to be offended by being called it. At any rate, much of the prejudice of black people against white people stems directly from the institution of racism which privileges white people. Not everyone's hate is equal, neither in justification nor in the harm it causes. And of course, nobody here is actually encouraging the hatred of any people based on their skin colour (no matter how snow-like), so you can calm yourself, get some sleep tonight, etcetera.

Where, again, were people being belligerently unreasonable?

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Alright, half of the town that I live near are people who wanna be 'crackas' There are very serious Nazi's in my area who would love nothing more than to enslave 'blacks' I hate the fascists and conservatives in my area and they deserve to be called cracka for being racist assholes who fantasize about enslaving and murdering people

You're absolutely right. But see, that kind of goes with what I'm saying, right? They DO deserve to be called that and much worse because they are racists. Cracker refers to cracking a whip over black people. So why should I be called that when all I've done is promote anti-racism and the destruction of the white supremacist structure? But you're right, those fuckers would deserve that and a lot more.

[Sinister Intents]

I don't actually find it offensive. To me it's just another word like 'dickhead', 'wanker', 'fuckface' or whatever. A meaningless insult to be ignored.

'White c*unt' and 'white dog' are the preferred slurs for the racist minorities in my part of the world. These don't offend me either. Not sure why actually. I'd be offended if someone criticized my character. Trying to make me feel bad for being white is just not gonna work.

You don't get offended when people use the C word? I get very offended by it.

[liberlict]

You don't get offended when people use the C word? I get very offended by it.

I don't personally no, but I can see why some women might.

[tachosomoza]

I have feelings for everyone, don't you?

I meant exactly what I said. Oppressed minorities have no obligation and you should not expect them to bite their tongues when discussing matters of literal life and death to them for the sake of your feelings.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

I actually wasn't aware of what images it was supposed to conjure up. Just that it's pretty silly to be offended by being called it. At any rate, much of the prejudice of black people against white people stems directly from the institution of racism which privileges white people. Not everyone's hate is equal, neither in justification nor in the harm it causes. And of course, nobody here is actually encouraging the hatred of any people based on their skin colour (no matter how snow-like), so you can calm yourself, get some sleep tonight, etcetera.

Where, again, were people being belligerently unreasonable?

Lol, I think people are misunderstanding me. See, I never even brought up the word cracker, you simply asked if I would be offended. I didm't know you meant in a casual way like someone says "sup cracka". Why would I give a shit about that unless I was an over-sensitive baby who cries about everything? But I am super calm, lol.

And when I say belligerently unreasonable, I mean the people who literally said "minorities can't be racist" and repeating it.

[Sinister Intents]

I don't personally no, but I can see why some women might.

All people who care about women's rights and the treatment of women in society should care about the use of mysoginistic hate words. So, yeah if you care you should hate that word, and vehemently attack that person's sexism.

[liberlict]

All people who care about women's rights and the treatment of women in society should care about the use of mysoginistic hate words. So, yeah if you care you should hate that word, and vehemently attack that person's sexism.

Yeah it depends on context I guess. I happen to know a lot of women who have embraced the word with pride. So what's to do about them ..

[Sinister Intents]

Yeah it depends on context I guess. I happen to know a lot of women who have embraced the word with pride. So what's to do about them ..

People need to be educated on feminism and awareness needs to be raised, so yeah you should tell people to not use that word. I tell people to stop using hate words, I get very pissed off when people argue against me saying that words like the N word, the C word, et cetera, are not prejudiced. There always seems to be some daft asshole who defends hate speech as freedom of speech, and then I key there car when I leave the fucking school!

[Tenka]

And when I say belligerently unreasonable, I mean the people who literally said "minorities can't be racist" and repeating it.

Well they cannot be racist in a way that really matters; they are not the sort that bourgeois society favours. Racism is rife in poorer communities of white people because their class disadvantages have outweighed their racial privileges and class consciousness is hard to come by, but regardless of the cause, it is in a context to do much more harm than any black person's (mostly justifiable, mostly impotent) distrust of white people.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Well they cannot be racist in a way that really matters; they are not the sort that bourgeois society favours. Racism is rife in poorer communities of white people because their class disadvantages have outweighed their racial privileges and class consciousness is hard to come by, but regardless of the cause, it is in a context to do much more harm than any black person's (mostly justifiable, mostly impotent) distrust of white people.

Tenka, I completely agree with this statement. We're honestly on the same page, maybe I am being over sensitive, I just don't like to feel like the "bad guy" just because many members of my race are pieces of shit and have created a power structure to oppress people who look different than me. I suppose my point is a bit inconsequential though in the grand scheme of things.

[BIXX]

Tenka, I completely agree with this statement. We're honestly on the same page, maybe I am being over sensitive, I just don't like to feel like the "bad guy" just because many members of my race are pieces of shit and have created a power structure to oppress people who look different than me. I suppose my point is a bit inconsequential though in the grand scheme of things.


Ok, we are getting somewhere. I get not wanting to feel like the bad guy- I have struggled with those feelings in the past. It is scary to be the bad guy, especially when you try so hard to be the good guy.

[Derendscools]

I meant exactly what I said. Oppressed minorities have no obligation and you should not expect them to bite their tongues when discussing matters of literal life and death to them for the sake of your feelings.

So if I began attacking white people, that would be cool, I'm sorry but that's stupid. I'm pretty sure i just used a straw man, but who cares, I DON'T.

[Derendscools]

Ok, we are getting somewhere. I get not wanting to feel like the bad guy- I have struggled with those feelings in the past. It is scary to be the bad guy, especially when you try so hard to be the good guy.

You guys are the bad guys, no?

[Sinister Intents]

So if I began attacking white people, that would be cool, I'm sorry but that's stupid. I'm pretty sure i just used a straw man, but who cares, I DON'T.

If you started attacking anyone, but the bourgeoisie, that'd make you an idiot. Also declaring something is stupid is not an argument, that's ad hominem.

[tachosomoza]

So if I began criticizing white bourgeoisie and their attitudes that have taken hold in the white proletariat, that would be cool.

It'd definitely be a lot more revolutionary/productive than attacking minorities for justified and historically based distrust of whites, yes.

[Sinister Intents]

You guys are the bad guys, no?

Hmmm? I'd say the communists and anarchists are the good guys, and the capitalists are the evil exploitative and oppressive leeches.

[BIXX]

You guys are the bad guys, no?


I am neither bad nor good. I fight in my own interests (which are necessarily anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-oppression in general).

[Derendscools]

Hmmm? I'd say the communists and anarchists are the good guys, and the capitalists are the evil exploitative and oppressive leeches.

True.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Ok, we are getting somewhere. I get not wanting to feel like the bad guy- I have struggled with those feelings in the past. It is scary to be the bad guy, especially when you try so hard to be the good guy.

You put that in better words than I did, that's exactly what I'm talking about. It sucks that people of my race have and are causing so much horror and oppression in the world. I want people to see that white people like me do exist, and I suppose that's why I kept being so defensive about the minorities can't be racist statements. But as it's been pointed out, individual instances of racism do not have much of an effect at all, it's the institutional racism that has a real impact. So I suppose there's no point in my whining, especially because I've never even experienced individual instances of racism towards me.

[liberlict]

Ya'll should read this for some perspective

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvk7GcooJ9Y

[Derendscools]

Ya'll should read this for some perspective

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvk7GcooJ9Y

Are you saying were all equal? Well thats just crazy!

[Sinister Intents]

Are you saying were all equal? Well thats just crazy!

Why shouldn't all humans be equal and treated equally?

[tachosomoza]

Ya'll should read this for some perspective

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvk7GcooJ9Y

And? I can post hundreds of incidents of people of middle eastern descent being targeted by people who are in positions to fuck them up for life, at a fundamental level. I can post hundreds of incidents of black men and women and children suffering at the hands of racist government officials. I can post hundreds of incidents of Latino people being harassed, deported and separated from their families, expelled from universities, and denied fair wages for their work or not being paid at all. By who? Bourgeois whites and a bourgeois white system.

Try being systematically raped through several generations and try to tell me something.

[Derendscools]

Why shouldn't all humans be equal and treated equally?

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. Of course we should be equal, because I love you all, its just that it seems some people disagree, and that some groups deserve the right to spread the hate.

[liberlict]

And? I can post hundreds of incidents of people of middle eastern descent being targeted by people who are in positions to fuck them up for life, at a fundamental level. I can post hundreds of incidents of black men and women and children suffering at the hands of racist government officials. I can post hundreds of incidents of Latino people being harassed, deported and separated from their families, expelled from universities, and denied fair wages for their work or not being paid at all. By who? Bourgeois whites and a bourgeois white system.

Try being systematically raped through several generations and try to tell me something.

No shit. I'm just showing that your perception of racism as some especially Caucasian phenomenon is contradicted by the facts.

And your framing of anti-white racism as some kind of historically justifiable backlash is pathetic and morally vapid.

A lot of this racism has little to do with bourgeois repression and more to do with religious fundamentalism. As a communist you should be able to understand that capitalism does discriminate on bases of color----it discriminates on the basis of labor power. Capitalists don't care what color the wage slave is. Would love to here a coherent argument as to why they would.

[tachosomoza]

No shit. I'm just showing that your perception of racism as some especially Caucasian phenomenon is contradicted by the facts.

And your framing of anti-white racism as some kind of historically justifiable backlash is pathetic and morally vapid

In the west, institutional racism is an especially Caucasian phenomenon, because the people who run the institutions are white. What facts? You basically posted some shit about crimes committed against whites. That's not racism, that's crimes committed against whites.

There is no such thing as anti white racism. Capitalists today don't care what color their wage slave is, this is true, but the treatment of said wage slave or their employment in the first place and access to goods and services is often based on what ethnicity they are. A white worker may be able to buy a house in a certain neighborhood, a black worker may not. A black worker's complaint is taken less seriously by a white bourgeois than that of a white worker. A white worker gets the promotion and bonus, the hispanic one doesn't. A hispanic worker who happens to be undocumented is threatened with deportation if he asks for a raise, a white worker is not.

So yes, while capitalism doesn't care what ethnicity labor is when it gets down to the hard business question and the bottom line, it still discriminatse based on race, sex (women are paid less than men and suffer from sexual objectification and abuse), sexual orientation (LGBT people are denied benefits cis people are), etc.

[liberlict]

What facts? You basically posted some shit about crimes committed against whites. That's not racism, that's crimes committed against whites.

They were racially motivated gang rapes committed against teenage white girls.


There is no such thing as anti white racism.

Wow. Seek help.

[BIXX]

No shit. I'm just showing that your perception of racism as some especially Caucasian phenomenon is contradicted by the facts.

What you linked to, while it may have been racially motivated, isn't racism. It is surely fucked up, but it isn't racism.


And your framing of anti-white racism as some kind of historically justifiable backlash is pathetic and morally vapid.

Good thing I reject morals then (even though you'd be wrong even if I was).


A lot of this racism has little to do with bourgeois repression and more to do with religious fundamentalism. As a communist you should be able to understand that capitalism does discriminate on bases of color----it discriminates on the basis of labor power. Capitalists don't care what color the wage slave is. Would love to here a coherent argument as to why they would.

Where do I even begin... Racism is not simply caused by religious fundamentalism. It is directly tied to capital and the reproduction of capital (of course this isn't to say that once capitalism disappears then racism will disappear. I'm just saying that capitalism benefits from racism highly).

[BIXX]

Wow. Seek help.


Except, they're right.

[liberlict]

Righto. I might leave this thread alone because I like this place and if I keep posting I might get labeled a fascist and banned. Happy debating y'all.

[tachosomoza]

They were racially motivated gang rapes committed against teenage white girls.

Yes, racially motivated rapes committed against teenage white girls. In a country run by white people. Not systemic, institutional oppression of white people as a group and above anything else, in a society and country where all of the institutions and state apparatus are dominated by Lebanese who colonized, murdered and enslaved the whites and then proceeded to grant them freedom only to force them into a state of pseudo feudal debt peonage enforced by violence.

[tachosomoza]

Righto. I might leave this thread alone because I like this place and if I keep posting I might get labeled a fascist and banned. Happy debating y'all.

You sound more like a white victimist reactionary who has never read sociology.

[#FF0000]

Righto. I might leave this thread alone because I like this place and if I keep posting I might get labeled a fascist and banned. Happy debating y'all.

The "there is no anti-white racism" thing is based on the definition of racism of "prejudice + power". Doesn't mean that folks can't have individual racial prejudice against white people -- just that white people as a group are not victims of structural/institutional racism

[Jay NotApplicable]

I think it's pretty justifiable for people of colour to feel mistrustful and/or resentful of white people...

I know a white guy who lived in a Puerto Rican neighborhood. He got his house robbed and vandalized so many times by the people he lived near that he finally gave up and moved out of the neighborhood. He is now racist towards Puerto Ricans. Is he justified in being racist? I don't think so. I think judging all Puerto Ricans because of the actions of some is wrong. And judging all white people because of the actions of some is wrong. Judging all of any race, based on the actions of some, is racist. Some racism is worse than other racism, but it's still racism.

[Quail]

I don't think those situations are comparable. Coming to the conclusion that a whole group of people are thieves and/or criminals because you once lived in a bad neighbourhood is completely different to being consistently disrespected, dismissed and not taken seriously and therefore expecting that to continue.

I have had so many men shout stuff at me or worse in the street that now when I'm walking alone I try to avoid guys or groups of guys because I'm worried they're going to do something that makes me feel unsafe. Does that make me sexist? Or am I behaving in a reasonable way based on past experience?

[Ares1214]

I think it's disgusting that people are condoning racism as long as it's against whites, or that they are claiming it isn't racism at all. Racism is racism, if you discriminate based on the color of someones skin, you are being racist, it's that simple. For the people saying it's "understandable" for blacks to feel resentment towards whites and not trust them because of what has happened in the past must then also agree that it's "understandable" for whites to feel like they will be robbed by any black person because of what has happened in the past. How will people stop being racist if it's acceptable for blacks to be racist to whites? That will just breed and perpetuate hatred.

[#FF0000]

I think it's disgusting that people are condoning racism as long as it's against whites, or that they are claiming it isn't racism at all.

Like I said before, when people say "there is no anti-white racism" they are talking about the absence of systemic racial prejudice.

Individual bigotry is still a thing, obviously.

[Ares1214]

Like I said before, when people say "there is no anti-white racism" they are talking about the absence of systemic racial prejudice.

Individual bigotry is still a thing, obviously.

Affirmative action...? :confused: Minority students get chosen above more qualified white students for colleges for no other reason than their race, that seems like systemic racial prejudice to me. Also, how are minorities being systemically held down today? I only see individual bigotry to be honest.

[BIXX]

Affirmative action...? :confused: Minority students get chosen above more qualified white students for colleges for no other reason than their race, that seems like systemic racial prejudice to me. Also, how are minorities being systemically held down today? I only see individual bigotry to be honest.


No... No... No one is this stupid. No one.

The war on drugs, the police, general societal opinions on minorities, etc... are systematically racist against minorities.

And don't pull that right-wing "AFFIRMATIVE ACTION MEANS THERE ISNT SYSTEMATIC RACISM" bullshit on me.

Minorities are typically lower-class, and as we know, it is almost impossible to ascend classes as well... They are targeted more for crimes (even when they don't commit them) etc...

Essentially, this boils down to I think you're a troll.

[Ares1214]

No... No... No one is this stupid. No one.

The war on drugs, the police, general societal opinions on minorities, etc... are systematically racist against minorities.

And don't pull that right-wing "AFFIRMATIVE ACTION MEANS THERE ISNT SYSTEMATIC RACISM" bullshit on me.

Minorities are typically lower-class, and as we know, it is almost impossible to ascend classes as well... They are targeted more for crimes (even when they don't commit them) etc...

Essentially, this boils down to I think you're a troll.

The war on drugs is stupid and cracks down on drug users, I think it should be ended for various reasons.

The police arrest who they think committed crimes, if minorities commit more crimes, then they will arrest more minorities, and also probably wrongfully do so in the future. But according to you guys, "it's understandable for blacks to hate and mistrust whites from what has happened in the past", so it's okay for police officers to use the fact that most of the criminals they arrested in the past were black so to continue to suspect blacks more than other races. Also, whites were racist to Japanese and Muslims in the past, why aren't there massive percentages of them going to jail? Probably has something to do with the fact they aren't committing much crime...

Affirmative action doesn't mean there isn't systemic racism, it IS systemic racism. It systematically prefers minorities over whites, that's called racism.

[tachosomoza]

The war on drugs is stupid and cracks down on drug users, I think it should be ended for various reasons.

The police arrest who they think committed crimes, if minorities commit more crimes, then they will arrest more minorities, and also probably wrongfully do so in the future. But according to you guys, "it's understandable for blacks to hate and mistrust whites from what has happened in the past", so it's okay for police officers to use the fact that most of the criminals they arrested in the past were black so to continue to suspect blacks more than other races. Also, whites were racist to Japanese and Muslims in the past, why aren't there massive percentages of them going to jail? Probably has something to do with the fact they aren't committing much crime...

Affirmative action doesn't mean there isn't systemic racism, it IS systemic racism. It systematically prefers minorities over whites, that's called racism.

There's so much wrong with this post, I believe I now have prostate cancer.

Affirmative action is a concession designed to remedy the effects of systemic racism courtesy of whites. It's definitely a lot better for American capital than black workers doing what the Haitians did and hanging the white bastards by the neck until dead.

[#FF0000]

Affirmative action...? :confused: Minority students get chosen above more qualified white students for colleges for no other reason than their race, that seems like systemic racial prejudice to me.

That isn't how affirmative action policies work, but alright -- affirmative action is a (very imperfect) means to attempt to rectify social inequalities that persist to this day. I mean, come on, racial discrimination was official policy not even fifty years ago. You don't think we're still feeling the effects of that today?



Also, how are minorities being systemically held down today? I only see individual bigotry to be honest.Well I'm from the US so I can only speak to the situation here.

Minority neighborhoods are targeted specifically for drug law enforcement despite the fact that drug use between black and white people is mostly the same. Black people have poorer access to educational resources (the public school system is more segregated today than it was during the Jim Crow era (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/06/schools-are-more-segregated-today-than-during-the-late-1960s/258348/)) , to adequate healthcare, to healthy food -- problems which lead to other problems including more black people being introduced into the "criminal justice" system at an early age (poor schools -- and especially poor black schools, tend to have a police presence in them. Mine did and I saw with my own eyes a fight between a white kid and a black kid that ended with the black kid being arrested and the white kid getting suspended for a day).

The criminal justice system is full of it's own problems. You have black folks being convicted disproportionately, often with less evidence, and sentenced far, far more harshly (that is, a black person convicted of a capital crime, they are more likely to get the death penalty than a white person convicted of a capital crime). This is without talking about stop-and-frisk policies that some cities have, where police make it a point to stop and search people on the street for no reason -- the result being systemic harassment of black folks in places like New York City (the vast majority of searches turn up nothing, predictably).

I could also point to cases like in the recent credit crisis, where black lendees were specifically targeted by banks for variable rate loans -- which the banks knew they would not be able to pay back. And even though Redlining is officially illegal these days, black people are still sometimes turned away from real-estate dealers or renters.

So yeah.

[#FF0000]

Probably has something to do with the fact they aren't committing much crime...

Yeah, I mean, this is if you subscribe to the "just world" fallacy and think that people get only what they deserve. The fact of the matter is that black and white people use drugs at just about the same rate and you'll find drugs wherever you go and look for them these days. Black folks are specifically targeted.

To say "more of these people are in jail because more of them commit crime!" ignores that it takes less to put a black guy in jail than a white guy (white people tend to do better with plea bargains, white folks tend to "score higher" with juries, etc. etc. etc.)


Affirmative action doesn't mean there isn't systemic racism, it IS systemic racism. It systematically prefers minorities over whites, that's called racism.

Huh. What do you think of affirmative action policies in countries like India, where they are extremely active in getting women into workplaces and politics with these sorts of policies? Are men the victims of sexism there?

[#FF0000]

HOLY SHIT I hate when I start a thought and move onto another one without finishing the first. Fixed my first post.

[Jay NotApplicable]

I have had so many men shout stuff at me or worse in the street that now when I'm walking alone I try to avoid guys or groups of guys because I'm worried they're going to do something that makes me feel unsafe. Does that make me sexist? Or am I behaving in a reasonable way based on past experience?

I understand your point. I think it would be wrong to resent all men based on the actions of a few, but I wouldn't be offended if you didn't walk near me because I'm a stranger and a man you don't know. I think that's reasonable, and not hate based.

[Jay NotApplicable]

During the Rodney King riots there was a white truck driver who was pulled from his truck and beaten to death for being white. Is that not racism?

[tachosomoza]

During the Rodney King riots there was a white truck driver who was pulled from his truck and beaten to death for being white. Is that not racism?

Did an all black jury acquit some black cops for beating the everloving shit out of a white motorist and the majority black LAPD have a record of brutality against the residents of LA's white ghettos?

[Ares1214]

Did an all black jury acquit some black cops for beating the everloving shit out of a white motorist and the majority black LAPD have a record of brutality against the residents of LA's white ghettos?

I love how you think that bringing up another case of racism justifies this one. People are screwed up if they justify racism with racism.

[#FF0000]

During the Rodney King riots there was a white truck driver who was pulled from his truck and beaten to death for being white. Is that not racism?

I dunno why you can't infer the answer from what was posted already?

[BIXX]

During the Rodney King riots there was a white truck driver who was pulled from his truck and beaten to death for being white. Is that not racism?


That ain't racism but seeing as you refuse to listen to reason you'll never see that.

[tachosomoza]

I love how you think that bringing up another case of racism justifies this one. People are screwed up if they justify racism with racism.

The Rodney King beating was an incident of racism. The Reginald Denny beating was not, it was a fucked up attack on a worker just trying to get to where he was going, but it wasn't racism.

[#FF0000]

I love how you think that bringing up another case of racism justifies this one. People are screwed up if they justify racism with racism.

Yo, the point he made that you're missing/ignoring is that racism isn't the same thing as individual racial bigotry. Racism is a system.

[Ares1214]

That isn't how affirmative action policies work, but alright -- affirmative action is a (very imperfect) means to attempt to rectify social inequalities that persist to this day. I mean, come on, racial discrimination was official policy not even fifty years ago. You don't think we're still feeling the effects of that today?


Well I'm from the US so I can only speak to the situation here.

Minority neighborhoods are targeted specifically for drug law enforcement despite the fact that drug use between black and white people is mostly the same. Black people have poorer access to educational resources (the public school system is more segregated today than it was during the Jim Crow era (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/06/schools-are-more-segregated-today-than-during-the-late-1960s/258348/)) , to adequate healthcare, to healthy food -- problems which lead to other problems including more black people being introduced into the "criminal justice" system at an early age (poor schools -- and especially poor black schools, tend to have a police presence in them. Mine did and I saw with my own eyes a fight between a white kid and a black kid that ended with the black kid being arrested and the white kid getting suspended for a day).

The criminal justice system is full of it's own problems. You have black folks being convicted disproportionately, often with less evidence, and sentenced far, far more harshly (that is, a black person convicted of a capital crime, they are more likely to get the death penalty than a white person convicted of a capital crime). This is without talking about stop-and-frisk policies that some cities have, where police make it a point to stop and search people on the street for no reason -- the result being systemic harassment of black folks in places like New York City (the vast majority of searches turn up nothing, predictably).

I could also point to cases like in the recent credit crisis, where black lendees were specifically targeted by banks for variable rate loans -- which the banks knew they would not be able to pay back. And even though Redlining is officially illegal these days, black people are still sometimes turned away from real-estate dealers or renters.

So yeah.

Then we have very different definitons of systemic. In my opinion, if legislation can stop it, it's systemic racism, if it can't, it's personal racism. According to law, discrimination based on race is illegal, but clearly that hasn't stopped both blacks and whites. But if you think legislation will stop police officers from arresting blacks more often than they should, which I still argue is still due to a higher occurence of crime more than racism, then I'm all ears.

[#FF0000]

Then we have very different definitons of systemic. In my opinion, if legislation can stop it, it's systemic racism, if it can't, it's personal racism.

Legislation can't necessarily stop any of it, though. Sure, you can make it so a boss can't say "I'm firing this person because they're black", but they can just as easily find any old reason they want, real or imagined, and claim they fired the person on that basis (or, since at-will employment is the law of the land, simply not give a reason at all).

Bigotry doesn't exist in a vacuum and social hierarchies don't have to be made de jure to exist.

[synthesis]

Then we have very different definitons of systemic. In my opinion, if legislation can stop it, it's systemic racism, if it can't, it's personal racism. According to law, discrimination based on race is illegal, but clearly that hasn't stopped both blacks and whites.

Typical of bourgeois conservatives, you fetishize the difference between harm caused by "the government" and harm caused by people not in government. That's because politically you think that the government is the highest authority, when in fact it is capital.

[Ares1214]

Typical of bourgeois conservatives, you fetishize the difference between harm caused by "the government" and harm caused by people not in government. That's because politically you think that the government is the highest authority, when in fact it is capital.

Typical of leftist communists, you blame all of societies problems on capital, profit, and the bourgeois. That's because politically you think that capitalism drives men to greed, hate, and discrimination, when in fact men have always been greedy, hateful, and discriminatory.

Wow, by slapping on "in fact" rather than any supporting evidence I feel so much more correct :laugh:

[Jay NotApplicable]

Yo, the point he made that you're missing/ignoring is that racism isn't the same thing as individual racial bigotry. Racism is a system.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

racism:
1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2: racial prejudice or discrimination

racial:
1: of, relating to, or based on a race
2: existing or occurring between races

prejudice:
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2: a:
(1) : preconceived judgment or opinion
(2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge
b : an instance of such judgment or opinion
c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

[Jay NotApplicable]

Yo, the point he made that you're missing/ignoring is that racism isn't the same thing as individual racial bigotry. Racism is a system.

Racism has more than one definition.

[#FF0000]

Racism has more than one definition.

Yes -- and I explained to you what definition people are using when they say "there is no anti-white racism".

[Ares1214]

Yes -- and I explained to you what definition people are using when they say "there is no anti-white racism".

I don't see any of those definitions say anything about systemic, just discrimination based on color. So if white people are discriminated against based on color, that's racism.

[BIXX]

I don't see any of those definitions say anything about systemic, just discrimination based on color. So if white people are discriminated against based on color, that's racism.


You're so fucking dumb please stop posting. Prejudice+power (this is the part that makes it systemic) = racism.

Fucking god you suck.

[#FF0000]

I don't see any of those definitions say anything about systemic, just discrimination based on color. So if white people are discriminated against based on color, that's racism.

More polite version of Echoshock's post:

The "power" part is what makes it systemic.

[Jay NotApplicable]

Let me get this straight. Systemic racism is a type of racism that minorities can't be a part of. (Ok, I understand that.)
And racism in general is something minorities can have, just not the part about it being systemic??

[Red Economist]

[Ignore this space- previously occupied by lots of unnecessary ranting]

[Jay NotApplicable]

I admit that I was wrong. My sister-in-law just quoted me some text from her college text book. Here’s what it says:

"discrimination and the "isms" (for example, sexism and racism) are not the same thing. All people have prejudice and discrimination but only the dominant group has the social, historical, and institutional power to back their prejudice and infuse it throughout the entire society. Thus these terms cannot be used interchangeably."

"there is no such thing as reverse racism or reverse sexism (or the reverse of any form of oppression). While women can be just as prejudiced as men, women cannot be "just as sexist as men" because they do not hold political, economic, and institutional power."

Now of course words have many definitions, but I think the systemic definition of racism is the one that should be used. So I will now consider minorities who resent white people as prejudice, rather than racist. I’m sorry for my misuse of the word.