bob crow has died

[ed miliband]

it's weird, first thing this morning i was browsing urban75 and i clicked on a thread about comments crow made about mps deserving a pay rise (to £74k) because they're "serving civilisation" and shouldn't have to "scramble about". went about my business for the day and return to the thread to find it's been changed and people are now mourning.

as somebody who considers himself more-or-less an ultraleftist, deaths like this are always a bit frustrating: on the one hand you have people who'll gloat about crow getting what he deserved, being the devil incarnate, the class warrior par excellence who was trying his damnedest to provoke a communist revolution, on the other you'll get the leftists who'll weep about crow being something akin to the second-coming of lenin - try to say anything critical, and you're a right-wing lackey who hates the working class.

crow was ultimately a stalinist bureaucrat, i'm not even saying that to smear him: those were his politics and his function. i'm not gonna mourn or weep or celebrate (and to be honest, there are very few deaths i'd celebrate, if any).

i'm sure others will have a different take.

[Sinister Intents]

Never heard of this guy before, so R.I.P.

[ed miliband]

Both ends of the political spectrum have spoken of their respect for the man who headed the rail workers' union from 2002. London mayor Boris Johnson said it was a "sad day", while Labour leader Ed Miliband hailed a "major figure in the Labour movement".

Mr Johnson said: "I'm shocked. Bob Crow was a fighter and a man of character.

"Whatever our political differences - and there were many - this is tragic news.

"Bob fought tirelessly for his beliefs and for his members.

"There can be absolutely no doubt that he played a big part in the success of the Tube, and he shared my goal to make transport in London an even greater success.

"It's a sad day."

He later told the BBC Mr Crow was widely misunderstood and was not the "left-wing ogre" he was considered to be by the wider public.

"If anything he was more moderate than some of the other characters in the RMT," said Mr Johnson, adding that Mr Crow was known to be the man you would go to "if the deal was to be done".


this goes without saying.

[ed miliband]

here's what the business leaders have to say:


Martin Griffiths, chairman of the Rail Delivery Group, which speaks on behalf of the rail industry, said: "Bob Crow was rightly recognised as one of the rail industry's most passionate voices, who championed the crucial role played by staff in delivering a safe service to passengers."

Sir Peter Hendy, London's Transport Commissioner, said he was "terribly sad" at the "unexpected news".

"Our thoughts are with Bob Crow's family, friends and all those he represented," he said.

John Cridland, director-general of the CBI, said: "We often disagreed on employment relations, but Bob Crow was a doughty and committed advocate for his members.

"I would like to extend my sincere condolences to his family, friends and colleagues at this very difficult time."

Sir Brian Souter, chairman of transport group Stagecoach, said: "Bob Crow was a passionate advocate for the country's railway.

"He worked tirelessly on behalf of his members and shared our focus on the critical importance of safety.

"His views on transport policy may often have been at odds with our own, but he was a man who commanded respect across the sector for his strength of belief in the causes he pursued."

[ed miliband]

52 is no age mind, he had kids and my parents are just around that age. terrible for them.

[tallguy]

He worked hard to represent the working people who elected him to do so. He wasn't corrupt as far as i could tell and he died too young. The authorities vilified him at every opportunity while he was alive. But, now he is dead, are happy to eulogise him since this makes them look good and he's not around to answer back.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

52 is no age mind, he had kids and my parents are just around that age. terrible for them.

Well, it is - but how many people died at fifty or earlier because of the rotten way in which labor bureaucrats like him run the unions, not to mention their role as labor lieutenants of the bourgeoisie. Of course the man wasn't an ogre - he was an honest man, as they say - but I don't see any particular reason to feel sorry about his passing, other than the fact that a human being with family and friends, some of them alright, who will be hurt, has died.

[ed miliband]

Well, it is - but how many people died at fifty or earlier because of the rotten way in which labor bureaucrats like him run the unions, not to mention their role as labor lieutenants of the bourgeoisie. Of course the man wasn't an ogre - he was an honest man, as they say - but I don't see any particular reason to feel sorry about his passing, other than the fact that a human being with family and friends, some of them alright, who will be hurt, has died.

i don't think i've said anything at all to the opposite effect, though. point out where i have. calling him a stalinist bureaucrat, saying i won't be mourning, quoting politicians and business leaders praising him. i thought i'd also throw in a line about how on a human level it's sad for anybody to go at that age.

i agree with you entirely, but... you're trying too hard. edgy.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

All I know is that the late Mr. Crow gave one of my favorite quotes of all time:

"Spit on your own and you can't do anything, but if you all spit together you can drown the bastards"

[Futility Personified]

I think this has some merit - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/oh-shit-say-tube-drivers-2014031184499

Bob Crow was ideologically difficult, but as far as I saw it he looked after his union and did what he was supposed to as a trade union leader. He was by no means perfect and I can't say I was a huge fan, but the UK is worse off without him.

[brigadista]

Bob was no Stalinist - a good man who never gave an inch - I was choked when I heard he died - never got his pension

I'm posting this ...where Bob breaks it down - I had a lot of respect for him v v sad today

9YS_03AhnMA

[ed miliband]

bob crow's politics and political allegiances were pretty clearly stalinist.

[brigadista]

bob crow's politics and political allegiances were pretty clearly stalinist.

Your proof is?

[ed miliband]

Your proof is?

the old cpgb to the communist party of britain to scargill's socialist labour party, and then various other similar ventures. and then back to the cpb i think.

he was a social conservative and nationalist who called himself a communist. i wonder what his conception of communism was.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Don't have much time for his politics, and of course as a labour bureaucrat capitalism was his oxygen, but if there's a tinge of sadness it's that he was an honest man and he did a lot to stand up for london underground workers. And of course that's no age to die, especially as suddenly as he has.

RIP.

[bricolage]

yeah it's fair enough to say he was a stalinist and a bureaucrat: he was both for sure.
he was also the product of a militant union, he was (in the grand scheme of things) far more willing to stand up for his members than any other union leader in the uk and he pissed off a lot of people who deserve to be pissed off.
tube workers will not lose or win their battles based on this and much less with the labour movement as a whole rise or fall on it. still, it seems a shame.

[bricolage]

there's also a good story about how he wouldn't go on newsnight when he won the election cos he was at the pub with rmt members.
also someone put on my facebook they once went to an rmt meeting and he stuck 400 quid behind the bar.
despite being a millwall fan he - and I'm fully aware this has no affect on his role - seems like he was a nice guy

[The Feral Underclass]

My view: Who cares.

[bricolage]

here's what the business leaders have to say:
I also think stuff like this and what boris johnson has to say often has no real meaning to what they would have said two days ago and what they really thought. lots of people, especially those in the public eye, still refuse to speak ill of the dead.

[ed miliband]

I also think stuff like this and what boris johnson has to say often has no real meaning to what they would have said two days ago and what they really thought. lots of people, especially those in the public eye, still refuse to speak ill of the dead.

i saw it the opposite way, really. all the bluster around bob crow being a fat, greedy communist from boris and his office was a good way to spin the tube strikes or whatever publicly. i'm not saying privately relations much rosier, but i don't doubt these tributes are at least a bit more honest than the image we were given when crow was still alive.

it's perfectly possible to neither speak ill of the dead nor paint them in a fairly glowing manner, which some of this lot do.

[bricolage]

i saw it the opposite way, really. all the bluster around bob crow being a fat, greedy communist from boris and his office was a good way to spin the tube strikes or whatever publicly. i'm not saying privately relations much rosier, but i don't doubt these tributes are at least a bit more honest than the image we were given when crow was still alive.

it's perfectly possible to neither speak ill of the dead nor paint them in a fairly glowing manner, which some of this lot do.
yeah that's definitely possible.
obviously it's hard to tell what actually went on but my general rule is to not trust anything anyone public says about anyone else public on the day they've died.

[tallguy]

the old cpgb to the communist party of britain to scargill's socialist labour party, and then various other similar ventures. and then back to the cpb i think.

he was a social conservative and nationalist who called himself a communist. i wonder what his conception of communism was.
What evidence do you have he was a social conservative?

[ed miliband]

What evidence do you have he was a social conservative?

supporting things like, say, the death penalty is pretty dodgy ground for anyone, let alone a self-proclaimed "communist".

[Dr Doom]

he was pretty anti immigration too

[ed miliband]

he was pretty anti immigration too

aye, and got praised for that from none other than nigel farage no less.

[tallguy]

aye, and got praised for that from none other than nigel farage no less.
He was against the exploitation, by the capitalist class, of playing one lot of workers against another by the use of cheap labour imports. The fact that the likes of Nigel Farage supported Crow's position for reasons that have an entirely different ideological origin is neither here nor there and to conflate the two positions is disingenuous

[ed miliband]

He was against the expoitation, by the capitalist class, of playing one lot of workers against another by the use of cheap labour imports. The fact that the likes of Nigel Farage supported his Crow's position for reasons that have an entirely different ideological origin is neither here nor there and to conflate the two positions is disingenuous

british leftists who take up reactionary lines about immigrants being used to undercut "native workers" wages are the worst.

[tallguy]

supporting things like, say, the death penalty is pretty dodgy ground for anyone, let alone a self-proclaimed "communist".
So, you are saying that true communists are anti death penalty under any and all circumstances? On what evidential basis do you make that claim? I say the above, by the way, as an anti capital punishment advocate.

[tallguy]

british leftists who take up reactionary lines about immigrants being used to undercut "native workers" wages are the worst.
That's a platitude unless you explain yourself.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

can't say i agreed with him ideologically and i think a lot of the criticisms levelled at him in this thread are perfectly valid (just as a whole bunch of the ones slung his way by the right-wing press were a load of toss) but i don't think anyone could deny he fought hard for and with the RMT (churned out some pretty good quotes too.) He certainly earned a kind of grudging respect from his opponents, it seems the consensus was among people who met him that even of they disagreed with him, he was the kind of guy you'd want fighting your corner. And like other people have mentioned, 52 is no age to die to the point where it actually seems faintly shocking. Significantly younger than both my parents for starters :/

[Prometeo liberado]

May the comrade rest in Peace.
I am a wee bit confused by this quote though,

Labour leader Ed Miliband hailed a "major figure in the Labour movement".

Since when did the Labour Party have a labour movement within it? Anyone see Neil Kinnock running around?

[blake 3:17]

The Bob Crow I knew
Former Times industrial reporter Christine Buckley recalls a man of dedication and belief, with an incredible attention to detail

Christine Buckley
The Guardian, Tuesday 11 March 2014 19.40 GMT

The first time I had a proper conversation with Bob Crow, who has died suddenly aged 52, was in a dimly lit restaurant in an old cellar during a TUC conference – a somewhat clandestine dinner with other combative union leaders including Mick Rix, Andy Gilchrist, Tony Woodley, Mark Serwotka and Billy Hayes.

This was the unions' self-styled "awkward squad", a grouping formed around 2002 and dedicated to pushing the union movement to the left, challenging the traditionally moderate TUC, and using industrial muscle to improve the lot of their members. The subterranean setting made the dinner feel a little like a meeting of the Hellfire Club and one could only imagine the delight of Daily Mail news editors that such secret meetings of this "dangerous" group really did happen.

As I was then industrial editor of the Times, owned by Rupert Murdoch, I could have been forgiven for worrying that I might have been invited only to be castigated for the actions of my employer. But across the table in the vaulted room, Bob was polite to a fault, seemingly interested in my opinion about union issues, and absolutely on top of his own brief. For someone of such uncompromising views, he was willing to engage and not put dogma before dialogue.

By contrast, some union leaders, including Bob's once political mentor the former miners' leader Arthur Scargill, would simply not deal with the Murdoch press. Bob could be very shouty at the microphone (once at the TUC he had to be asked to lower his voice slightly as his amplified tones bounced around the hall). But at the dinner he came across as calm and reasonable as he criticised the then prime minister, Tony Blair, for doing nothing for working people, for the mismanagement of the railways and for the many and varied problems of capitalism. Bob may have said this more than 1,000 times since his teens but he made the arguments with as much vigour and belief as if he'd first come across the ideas.

The awkward squad was born in such behind-closed-doors, underground conversations, initially through Bob and Rix, friends since their youth when they were both in the Communist party. They generated nervousness in the labour movement because they were uncompromising, and because they won election after election. While Blair was praising the rightwing Ken Jackson as a model union leader, more and more leftwingers were elected. They demonstrated an ability to work together in a way that no band of mainstream union leaders had done in recent years. They were political comrades who worked together to pursue a leftwing agenda many thought had died under Blairism.

A railway lifer, Crow, from Shadwell in east London, had left school at 16 to join London Underground. He was first elected as a union rep in 1983, and became the RMT's general secretary in 2002. Such was his reputation then that Labour's transport secretary, Alistair Darling, declined to meet him for at least 18 months.

Bob was an effective union leader, not just for the considerable work he did for his members but also for how he steered the RMT. I've been at RMT conferences where often Bob was the only voice of reason – conferences that deserved a place alongside the Life of Brian's People's Front of Judea.

The hardline approach of the RMT led to the union's split from Labour. Its financial support for some Scottish Socialist party candidates led to its expulsion from the party in 2004. It was the first time the Labour party had expelled a union in its 104-year history. Some worried that the RMT would lose its influence, though Bob, who was never a Labour party member, was less certain that a close relationship with Labour led to influence. The RMT's expulsion was followed by unrest among more left-leaning unions, including the decision by the Fire Brigades Union to disaffiliate.

Bob always believed unions were most effective in industrial battles and that their influence was greatest in the workplace. And indeed that is where the RMT has had the most impact – ask any Londoner, although their views about Crow are likely be polarised.

London has regularly been gripped by travel chaos for days at a time by RMT strikes on the tube. Whatever disruption they caused, the strikes have undoubtedly been beneficial for RMT members who, as the former London mayor Ken Livingstone said, became the only working-class people in the capital to still have well-paid jobs.

Under Bob's leadership, membership of the RMT grew from 60,000 to 80,000. These days most unions struggle to retain their membership in an increasingly fragmented world of work. Few dream of increasing it.

Most people who knew Bob, or knew the way he worked, had respect for him. Along with undoubted dedication and belief, he had an incredible attention to detail. He could talk you through every small step of a dispute with total recall and no recourse to notes. Where he did perhaps fall down was in not projecting that professionalism sufficiently, leaving him too open to the accusations of his detractors of being a firebrand.

The last time I interviewed Bob we went to see his beloved Millwall. Bob was in many ways the archetypal Millwall fan: "nobody likes us, we don't care", with the look of someone up for a bit of a brawl. "If a trade union ain't gonna fight, there is no point in joining," he said.

Bob was campaigning for the family of Ian Tomlinson, the newspaper vendor who died in the G20 summit protests in the City of London after being struck by a police officer. During the match he spoke about improving pay and conditions on the Underground and the railways, social justice and how annoying the opposition that day, Leyton Orient, were – a team with no promotion hopes of their own who would not give in without a fight.

Then as we left, a London taxi driver shouted: "Hey Bob, when are you going to have another strike, us cabbies are starving".

Christine Buckley is the editor of the Journalist, the magazine of the National Union of Journalists, and was industrial editor of the Times from 2000–09

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/11/bob-crow-i-knew

[Ele'ill]

I feel absolutely nothing.

[bricolage]

I feel absolutely nothing.
well duh, i'd be very surprised if someone from another country felt much about this.

[TheEmancipator]

british leftists who take up reactionary lines about immigrants being used to undercut "native workers" wages are the worst.

Crow's stance has nothing to do with favouring native workers. The fact is the immigrants who come here (Europe) are paid shit, and the "natives" (which are just registered workers, nothing to do with race, background, etc) are put out of work because of this. If crow and any other self-respecting socialist had his way the minimum wage would be not only higher but properly enforced. A flooded labour market is the last thing workers need in a capitalist society. I do think there is more than enough space and opportunities for immigrants in Europe in general. It's just the incompetent politicians failed to plan any kind of housing and work programmes to support newcomers.

Crow's union actions though, should be seen in the same light as any other job. Not heroic, just using market forces to get higher pay. Beating capitalism at its own game. He got a good pay, so did his workers. Lets not engage in melodramatic moralism by saying this is either good or bad. Bankers aren't evil for getting 6 figure salaries either. They're just making the most out of the conditions they've been brought up in.

Funny guy though. RIP.

[radiocaroline]

Two sides of looking at Bob Crow to be honest.

On the one hand, he was a Stalinist beauracrat, commanding a massive wage who condoned MPs for wanting a wage rise, despite his "ultra-leftist" political allegiance. In many ways, the guy was a hypocrite and is massively criticised by those on the right for his lavish holidaying and luxury lifestyle.

Ultimately, though however he is one of the most influential and famous union leaders of recent years. His death will be felt mostly by his representatives in the RMT who have to fight the TfL (Transport for London) cuts and privatisation in the workplace, without their influential leader. His ability to challenge Boris Johnson was one that was impressive and needed to be done, not many union leaders have the balls or the celebrity to stand up to Boris who has become the loveable jester of London, only with devastating policies for the city's working class. Also credit for Bob Crow in campaigning for rail businesses in my hometown which rely on contracts from the government.

Overall, we must all stand by his union who need direction after the death of a well-known leader and solidarity in the midst of the London Underground disputes.

R.I.P Bob Crow

[Left Voice]

His death is damaging for the trade unions in the UK. I certainly disagreed with many of his stances - his opposition to mass immigration for example. But he was one of those rare trade unionists that continued to be a firebrand and fight for the rights of his members even after the Labour Party's conversion to neo-liberalism. Just witness what was achieved through the Tube strikes earlier this year - I doubt the RMT would have achieved this without a leader like Bob Crow.

The CPGB have a good write-up about him. http://www.cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/1001/an-intransigent-fighter

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

His death is damaging for the trade unions in the UK. I certainly disagreed with many of his stances - his opposition to mass immigration for example. But he was one of those rare trade unionists that continued to be a firebrand and fight for the rights of his members even after the Labour Party's conversion to neo-liberalism. Just witness what was achieved through the Tube strikes earlier this year - I doubt the RMT would have achieved this without a leader like Bob Crow.


I think this is a fair assessment, though of course it would always have been difficult to move someone like Bob Crow from the position of 'dangerous rebel under capitalism' to a committed supporter of revolutionary change, since of course the raison d'etre of a trade union (and by extension its most powerful members) is to extract reforms from capital. no capital = no power for trade unions; trade unions are ultimately reformist.

But yes, he was an incredibly committed trade unionist who did win wonderfully for his members. RIP.

[Ele'ill]

I think if one person's absence is damaging in a crippling way there's something wrong

[A.J.]

bob crow's politics and political allegiances were pretty clearly stalinist.

Although this vague and ill-defined term "stalinist" is meant as some sort of of insult, the undesiribles who typically throw it about render it an unintended compliment.

But anyway, I think I'm going off-topic.

R.I.P.

[Comrade Jacob]

Yes he had some shitty views & the money he got was ridiculous but he did stand up for the workers and was a passionate man. RIP.

[Left Voice]

british leftists who take up reactionary lines about immigrants being used to undercut "native workers" wages are the worst.

Honestly, this a million times.

I would have some sympathy for the idea that it's for the good of all workers (immigrants being paid less, so-called 'natives' being out of a job) if it wasn't reformist hogwash. If the unions had any interest in the well-being of the immigrant workers, they wouldn't be as anti-EU as they are (I say that as no fan of the EU in its current neoliberal form). Despite the rhetoric, their stance only serves to reinforce nationalism and borders.

Trade unions should campaign for greater immigration and higher wages for immigrant workers, or just stop the pretense altogether.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Honestly, this a million times.

I would have some sympathy for the idea that it's for the good of all workers (immigrants being paid less, so-called 'natives' being out of a job) if it wasn't reformist hogwash. If the unions had any interest in the well-being of the immigrant workers, they wouldn't be as anti-EU as they are (I say that as no fan of the EU in its current neoliberal form). Despite the rhetoric, their stance only serves to reinforce nationalism and borders.

Trade unions should campaign for greater immigration and higher wages for immigrant workers, or just stop the pretense altogether.

The power of national Trade Unions doesn't depend on the welfare of migrant workers, though, so they're never going to stand up to them, no matter how much rhetoric about 'solidarity' they spew out.

People (and i'm not aiming this at you) shouldn't feel so let down by trade unions because the unions only derive their power by assuming the function of the workers' industrial representatives in opposition under capitalism. The people who hold power in Trade Unions (and therefore hold a large degree of social and political power in wider capitalist society) have absolutely zero material interest in seeing the end of capitalism.

[blake 3:17]

A few trade unions here in Canada have made steps to work more closely with migrant workers. In some cases there are specific legal challenges to this -- eg agricultural workers are banned from unionizing though that is in the process of being challenged -- and there have been locals which mixed citizens/permanent residents with migrant guest workers. The results have been highly uneven.

[The Feral Underclass]

"Bob Crow was a man you could do a deal with" -- Baroness Kramer.

Says it all really.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blake 3:17]

So sick of this union bashing. Makes me think I'm reading the comments on Fox News or sometyhing

[The Feral Underclass]

So sick of this union bashing. Makes me think I'm reading the comments on Fox News or sometyhing


And I'm sick of the bullshit leftist fawning, lack of analysis and idiotic comparisons, but that's just life, isn't it? It's not my fault you have shit politics.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Die Neue Zeit]

Why do I feel compelled to agree with TAT in this thread? :confused:

This is simply the death of someone whose day job of collective bargaining representation would be better performed by an independent, arms-length government agency (http://www.revleft.com/vb/private-sector-collective-t124045/index.html).

[blake 3:17]

From the Huffington Post:
(http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/11/bob-crow-union-leader-dies_n_4939807.html?1394532617&utm_hp_ref=uk)

(http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/11/bob-crow-union-leader-dies_n_4939807.html?1394532617&utm_hp_ref=uk)
RMT union leader Bob Crow's shock death (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/11/bob-crow-union-leader-dies_n_4939807.html?1394532617&utm_hp_ref=uk) has brought an end to the life of one of Britain's most effective trade union leaders
He was known for being combative and outspoken - here are some of his most memorable quotes.
1. "What do you want me to do, sit under a tree and read books of Karl Marx every day?"
- Crow defending being snapped on holiday in Brazil (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/02/04/bob-crow-brazil-daily-mail_n_4722196.html)
2. "I do believe they should have a pay rise".
- Crow on MPs' pay (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-26513673)
3. "I'm not going to be hanging around for ever. I won't be one of these people like Lenin in a mausoleum."
- On standing for re-election in 2016 as RMT union leader (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/07/bob-crow-interview-nothing-to-defend)
4. "I was born in a council house, as far as I’m concerned I will die in one.”
- Crow defends living in a council house despite his £145,000 salary (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bob-crow-i-have-no-moral-duty-to-move-out-of-council-house-despite-receiving-sixfigure-salary-as-rmt-boss-8964238.html)
5. "The achievements of Labour in the years after the Second World War should never be underestimated, but they are now history."
- Crow on the Labour Party (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/durham-miners-gala-bob-crow-2051511)
6. "If you have robots build cars, how are robots going to buy them?”
- Crow on outsourcing to China (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7598573a-5664-11e0-84e9-00144feab49a.html#axzz2vZaipJqm)
7. “Good luck to them. I have never interfered, I have never said to them do this or that.”
- Crow on if his children became bankers (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/7598573a-5664-11e0-84e9-00144feab49a.html#axzz2vZaipJqm)
8. “You keep telling us it’s an open door, but it’s a revolving door, we keep on coming out the same side we come in.”
- Crow on negotiating with Boris Johnson (http://www.london24.com/entertainment/around-the-web/the_top_7_quotes_from_boris_johnson_vs_bob_crow_on _the_radio_1_3283376)
9. "I wont shed one single tear over her death. She destroyed the NHS and destroyed industry in this country and as far as I'm concerned she can rot in hell."
- Crow on Margaret Thatcher's death (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/04/10/bob-crow-says-margaret-thatcher-hell_n_3053696.html)