An Appeal To Reason

[Jay NotApplicable]

I am making an appeal to the anarchist community here. Please read all of what I have to say before making any judgments of me.

I identify as pro-life. I don't mean that in any way as a political statement. I do not mean it in any political sense of the word. I have no interest in changing politics. I have no interest in voting or in any other way to make laws restricting or supporting abortion.

What I mean by identifying as pro-life is that I love all life, and don't like to see any human life ended. I don't like the death penalty, and I don't like abortion in most cases. But I do not judge people. I have friends who have had abortions, and I love them without judgment. And when a struggling mother chooses life instead of abortion I'm literally there. I'm changing diapers and helping financially. I don't just talk the talk. I live it.

But because I identify as "pro-life" I have been restricted on these forums by the moderators. I asked if there is an appeal process to challenge the interpretation of the forum rules, and I was told no. That seems like a very authoritative approach to me. So I am appealing to reason and the the community here. And if after hearing me out the community would still rather me be restricted for the term I use to identify myself, then so be it. I will respect your opinions and drop this.

So if you still think I should be restricted on these forums, please respond with "do not support" and I will add you to the Do Not Support list. But if you think I should be allowed full access to these forums like most other people are, then please respond with "support" and I will add you to the Support list.

Thank you:)

Support List:
Jay NotApplicable
loonyleftist
Sinister Intents
Rosa Partizan
EchoShock

Do Not Support List:

[Rosa Partizan]

well, but a fetus is no human life.

[Jay NotApplicable]

well, but a fetus is no human life.

And I respect your opinion.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

There is no statement one could make about abortion in 2014 that would be free of politics. Your position is inherently political regardless of whatever mental game you've decided to play with yourself.

[Loony Le Fist]

...
I have no interest in voting or in any other way to make laws restricting or supporting abortion.


It sounds to me like you are saying you support a woman's right to choose. If that is the case. There's no need to qualify that. Either you support a woman's right to choose or you don't. And if you do--then count me as support.

[Tenka]

A parasite that shares ur genes' right to be born is just as much worthy of consideration as a woman's so-called right to be something other than its bearer!
(bad, bad joke)

I think the official board position is that it should be the woman's choice, without qualifier. People who disagree are restricted, and rightfully so. The "pro-life" position cannot be divorced from its wider usage. If you are "pro-choice", as they say, you cannot be "pro-life", even if you for some reason strongly sympathise with a fetus.

[Jay NotApplicable]

It sounds to me like you are saying you support a woman's right to choose. If that is the case. There's no need to qualify that. Either you support a woman's right to choose or you don't. And if you do--then count me as support.

I'm saying that I support choice, but hope that choice is for life. And I will do what I reasonably can to support the choice of life. Loony, do you still want me to add you to the Support list?

[Rosa Partizan]

If you think that the decision is all up to the woman, you're no "pro lifer". Don't get fooled by this vocab. A "pro lifer" can be perfectly fine with death penalty and give a fuck about the baby once it's born. So, if you're like, "the woman has to decide for herself and in case she chooses abortion, she may not be restricted", you're basically pro choice. Pro choice does not mean pro abortion. A pro choice-person is supporting any woman that decides for giving birth and would not want to force an abortion upon her.

[Taters]

Okay but what if I want to kill all the babies? Do you still respect that opinion?

[Jay NotApplicable]

Whether a fetus is a human life or not is a highly debatable subject. You have come to your conclusion on it, and I respect your conclusion. I have come to my own conclusion, it simply differs from yours. But I'm not going to use my conclusion to restrict you.

[Rosa Partizan]

Okay but what if I want to kill all the babies? Do you still respect that opinion?

what the... ?

[Jay NotApplicable]

Okay but what if I want to kill all the babies? Do you still respect that opinion?

I would respect your opinion, but I would not respect your actions if you tried to actually kill babies, since there are so many reasonable alternatives to infanticide.

[Rosa Partizan]

let's please not mix up vocabulary like babies and fetuses and so on. Killing a baby is never ever gonna be fine and has nothing do to with female autonomy.

[Tenka]

let's please not mix up vocabulary like babies and fetuses and so on. Killing a baby is never ever gonna be fine and has nothing do to with female autonomy.

Yes, though careful not to draw the thanks of people who consider something unborn to be a "baby" if it has passed some time of viability within the mother. They are effectively anti-choice (though they cannot seem to understand it).

[Jay NotApplicable]

The terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" have many connotations, both positive and negative. I do not subscribe to many of the connotations of the term "pro-life," but I would rather identify as pro-life than pro-choice because I believe more strongly in the positive connotations of the term "pro-life." And because of my usage of a term I am being restricted on the forums.

[Loony Le Fist]

Yes, though careful not to draw the thanks of people who consider something unborn to be a "baby" if it has passed some time of viability within the mother. They are effectively anti-choice (though they cannot seem to understand it).


let's please not mix up vocabulary like babies and fetuses and so on. Killing a baby is never ever gonna be fine and has nothing do to with female autonomy.

Let's not confuse the poor dude anymore than we have to. :laugh:

Jay, either you support a woman's right to choose or you don't. If you do, you're pro-choice. It's that simple. It doesn't have anything to do with what you think is the right thing. All that matters is that you believe that women have the right to choose what they think is the right thing.

[Sinister Intents]

I'm against pro life, so no I'm not in support of this. I see being pro life as a veiled way of being sexist, and the pro life argument is always from a religious perspective. I really only can echo what other people will say.

I dated a pro lifer, that was awful.

[Taters]

I would respect your opinion, but I would not respect your actions if you tried to actually kill babies, since there are so many reasonable alternatives to infanticide.

Ok good I was worried you may not have respected my opinion to kill all the babies. It feels good to be respected for once.

[Rosa Partizan]

Yes, though careful not to draw the thanks of people who consider something unborn to be a "baby" if it has passed some time of viability within the mother. They are effectively anti-choice (though they cannot seem to understand it).

yes, I've had this discussion on another board. There were some scientists claiming it's fine to kill already born babies, and we were all like, dafuq no?! Then some users were like, but Rosa, how can you be against that, but on the other side be pro choice? I draw a VERY clear line between a living creature that breathes, moves and eats on its own, not being dependent on another organism, and something that can only develop because another organism is supporting it. Two totally different things to me, and so is this to you, I suppose.

[Jay NotApplicable]

Jay, either you support a woman's right to choose or you don't. If you do, you're pro-choice. It's that simple.

I then would be, in your understanding of the term, pro-choice. But I would rather identify as pro-life because of the positive connotations of the phrase.

[Rosa Partizan]

I then would be, in your understanding of the term, pro-choice. But I would rather identify as pro-life because of the positive connotations of the phrase.

dude, stop that, please. This choice of vocab is totally misleading. Pro life has NOTHING do to with being "pro life". As I already mentioned, a ton of pro lifers is pro death penalty, and so do a lot of them not give a flying fuck about the fetus once it's a developed, born baby. All they wanna do is restrict women's sexuality and autonomy of her own body. They wanna punish women who like to decide by themselves when they have sex and with whom.

[Loony Le Fist]

I then would be, in your understanding of the term, pro-choice. But I would rather identify as pro-life because of the positive connotations of the phrase.

It's not my understanding of the term. It's what the term means. Pro (meaning in favor of) choice (self explanatory).


The terms "pro-life" and "pro-choice" have many connotations, both positive and negative. I do not subscribe to many of the connotations of the term "pro-life," but I would rather identify as pro-life than pro-choice because I believe more strongly in the positive connotations of the term "pro-life." And because of my usage of a term I am being restricted on the forums.

You don't have to be afraid to use the term pro-choice. It can carry a negative connotation in some circles. But that's mostly because of the people that want to demonize people who identify as such. The only thing pro-choice means is that you believe that a woman has a right to make that choice. That's it. It doesn't mean you want people to around having abortions. It doesn't mean you want to encourage abortion. All it means is that you feel it is up to women to make that choice.

The interesting thing is that there's a heck of a lot of people like you, who are afraid to identify as pro-choice. And that's all thanks to authoritarian assholes.

[Jay NotApplicable]

dude, stop that, please. This choice of vocab is totally misleading. Pro life has NOTHING do to with being "pro life". As I already mentioned, a ton of pro lifers is pro death penalty, and so do a lot of them not give a flying fuck about the fetus once it's a developed, born baby. All they wanna do is restrict women's sexuality and autonomy of her own body. They wanna punish women who like to decide by themselves when they have sex and with whom.

I understand that, and I think those people are assholes. But there are many of them (not me) who want to restrict abortion AND help the child after he/she is born. There are so many different angles to this issue. And I would rather identify as pro-life based on what I see as the positive connotations of the word.

I am refusing to stop identifying as "pro-life." If you would like me to be restricted on these forums because of the way I use the term then I will respect your opinions and add you to the Do Not Support list.

[sosolo]

yes, I've had this discussion on another board. There were some scientists claiming it's fine to kill already born babies, and we were all like, dafuq no?! Then some users were like, but Rosa, how can you be against that, but on the other side be pro choice? I draw a VERY clear line between a living creature that breathes, moves and eats on its own, not being dependent on another organism, and something that can only develop because another organism is supporting it. Two totally different things to me, and so is this to you, I suppose.

Just a scenario for discussion:

What about newborns with painful or terminal illness? I support euthanasia rights, so couldn't it be the parents' choice? Don't get me wrong, I am NOT trying to justify infanticide, but I think this bears discussion.

--sosolo

[Rosa Partizan]

I really don't know...maybe this is all kind of a misunderstanding....please just answer the question if you want a woman to be able to decide for herself and in case she does not want to keep the fetus, you want her to have the chance of a safe, hygienic abortion. Just yes or no!

[Jay NotApplicable]

What I'm simply trying to achieve by this thread is to become unrestricted on the forums like everyone else. And I disagree that my use of a term is grounds for restriction.

[Jay NotApplicable]

Just a scenario for discussion:

What about newborns with painful or terminal illness? I support euthanasia rights, so couldn't it be the parents' choice? Don't get me wrong, I am NOT trying to justify infanticide, but I think this bears discussion.

--sosolo

It would probably be a discussion better suited in its own thread, as it's pretty much not what's in question here.

[Jay NotApplicable]

I really don't know...maybe this is all kind of a misunderstanding....please just answer the question if you want a woman to be able to decide for herself and in case she does not want to keep the fetus, you want her to have the chance of a safe, hygienic abortion. Just yes or no!

Yes, but I will not vote that yes. I will stay out of politics regarding abortion.

[Rosa Partizan]

Just a scenario for discussion:

What about newborns with painful or terminal illness? I support euthanasia rights, so couldn't it be the parents' choice? Don't get me wrong, I am NOT trying to justify infanticide, but I think this bears discussion.

--sosolo

This is so fucking tough. In Belgium, I think, there's now a law allowing children of minimum 12 years of age to decide for themselves if they want euthanasia or not. I had so mixed feelings about it, but came to the conclusion that this law is fine, that most of these children that have been ill for a long time, are much more mature than their peers and that they are able to decide for themselves. But yeah, the difference is, they decide for themselves. A baby can't do so. I'd really like to abstain from your question, and I don't ever wanna be in the position to decide about that from a legal point of view or to judge someone who has decided this for their baby.

[Sinister Intents]

What I'm simply trying to achieve by this thread is to become unrestricted on the forums like everyone else. And I disagree that my use of a term is grounds for restriction.

With how you're describing yourself it seems more confusing to call yourself pro life, so I am on your side. I just see the definition of pro choice as women having a choice, and others having a choice in all matters of life. For me people who're pro choice are often pro death penalty which I'm against, or they're anti abortion because they don't want women to have a choice. You saying that women have a choice, but you're hoping they pick to have the baby instead just shows me that you recognize they have a choice, and that you're not anti choice. I'm very hungover, so I hope this makes sense

[Loony Le Fist]

Yes, but I will not vote that yes. I will stay out of politics regarding abortion.

Listen dude. You are pro-choice. Whether you like the term or not. If you support a woman's right to choose, you are pro-choice. It's that simple. Why the hell are you trying to make it so complicated? :rolleyes:

[Rosa Partizan]

Yes, but I will not vote that yes. I will stay out of politics regarding abortion.

Impossible. The female body and its autonomy is a political issue, like it or not.

[Jay NotApplicable]

With how you're describing yourself it seems more confusing to call yourself pro life, so I am on your side. I just see the definition of pro choice as women having a choice, and others having a choice in all matters of life. For me people who're pro choice are often pro death penalty which I'm against, or they're anti abortion because they don't want women to have a choice. You saying that women have a choice, but you're hoping they pick to have the baby instead just shows me that you recognize they have a choice, and that you're not anti choice. I'm very hungover, so I hope this makes sense

Thanks Sinister. I'll take that as a "support" unless you tell me otherwise.

[Sinister Intents]

Thanks Sinister. I'll take that as a "support" unless you tell me otherwise.

That be support btw.

[Rosa Partizan]

Support List:
Jay NotApplicable
loonyleftist
Sinister Intents
Rosa Partizan

[Jay NotApplicable]

When people say they are pro-choice, other people often come to false conclusions on what that person actually believes. And the same is true for the term pro-life. So it's sort of a toss-up on which term to use, but I'm choosing to use "pro-life."

[Loony Le Fist]

Thanks Sinister. I'll take that as a "support" unless you tell me otherwise.

You have my support too. But you ought to just come out and say you are pro-choice. That is the definition of pro-choice. You support a woman's right to choose. Fullstop. That's all it means. There needn't be a qualifier.

[Loony Le Fist]

When people say they are pro-choice, other people often come to false conclusions on what that person actually believes. And the same is true for the term pro-life. So it's sort of a toss-up on which term to use, but I'm choosing to use "pro-life."

Remember--you are on a board with cool people, not jackasses. ;)

We know what pro-choice means. It's simple. All it means is that you believe in a woman's right to choose. Easy.

[Jay NotApplicable]

Support List:
Jay NotApplicable
loonyleftist
Sinister Intents
Rosa Partizan

Thank you Rosa.

[Rosa Partizan]

When people say they are pro-choice, other people often come to false conclusions on what that person actually believes. And the same is true for the term pro-life. So it's sort of a toss-up on which term to use, but I'm choosing to use "pro-life."

you can NOT redefine the whole meaning of a concept that society decided differently on. Why don't you get it?

[Sinister Intents]

When people say they are pro-choice, other people often come to false conclusions on what that person actually believes. And the same is true for the term pro-life. So it's sort of a toss-up on which term to use, but I'm choosing to use "pro-life."

I refuse to acknowledge you as pro-life at this point, but perhaps you'll influence others with your definition, and this definition of pro-life will spread to others.

[Jay NotApplicable]

Remember--you are on a board with cool people, not jackasses. ;)

We know what pro-choice means. It's simple. All it means is that you believe in a woman's right to choose. Easy.

I don't want to be "pro-choice" here, and then go to church and be "pro-life." I'm not fake. I want to use the same term wherever I am.

[Sinister Intents]

I don't want to be "pro-choice" here, and then go to church and be "pro-life." I'm not fake. I want to use the same term wherever I am.

Call yourself a "Pro-choice pro-lifer"

[Loony Le Fist]

you can NOT redefine the whole meaning of a concept that society decided differently on. Why don't you get it?

Heck, he can define it however he wants. But the fact remains he's pro-choice by societies definition. :grin:


I don't want to be "pro-choice" here, and then go to church and be "pro-life." I'm not fake. I want to use the same term wherever I am.

Look you aren't a fake. Do you stop believing that women have a right to choose in church? Of course not! So you won't be a fake. You are pro-choice there too!

I think you are over intellectualizing the issue here. The issue is simple. If you believe in a woman's right to choose you are pro-choice. That doesn't mean you are trying to encourage abortions or something. I think most people actually want to minimize abortions. I have never met a pro-choice person that wanted to encourage abortions. They just believe (like you) that women have a right to choose. It's the damned simplest thing in the world, dude!

[Loony Le Fist]

I don't want to be "pro-choice" here, and then go to church and be "pro-life." I'm not fake. I want to use the same term wherever I am.

You need to take me to the asshole that has fed you this non-sense that pro-choice people are against "life" or something. Or that we are some degenerates or some crap! I want to wring there neck for making us have to unravel these intellectual distortions! :laugh:

[BIXX]

Oh my god this thread made me so mad for it's infuriating slowness.

Jay: you are pro-choice. I don't care if you like the connotations held with pro-life. That's like saying I like the connotations associated with capitalism but I am a communist, but I'll continue saying I support capitalism. It simply ain't so.

Everyone else: the poor guy won't change his identifier, it seems. I believe he genuinely believes that the meaning of these terms is malleable, when really they are fairly rigid. Eventually he will come to understand they aren't as malleable as all that. (Interestingly enough I think this idea of malleability in words comes from aore liberal background, something we all have needed to be washed of in the past. Give him time, and he will be washed of it as well).

Jay, assuming you support a woman's right to choose, I support lifting your restriction.

[Jay NotApplicable]

I have never met a pro-choice person that wanted to encourage abortions. They just believe (like you) that women have a right to choose. It's the damned simplest thing in the world, dude!

I have actually met people who are pro-abortion. They would like to see the African-American community have more abortions.

[Jay NotApplicable]

You need to take me to the asshole that has fed you this non-sense that pro-choice people are against "life" or something. Or that we are some degenerates or some crap! I want to wring there neck for making us have to unravel these intellectual distortions! :laugh:

Lol. There are a lot of hypocrites out there, and unfortunately they help make up the English language.

[BIXX]

I have actually met people who are pro-abortion. They would like to see the African-American community have more abortions.

You talk to too many fascists, methinks. Eugenicists, specifically. They aren't worth your time to talk to, only to bash.

[Sinister Intents]

10 Arguments in Favor of Pro-Choice Policy (http://amplifyyourvoice.org/u/pheo152/2009/01/26/10-arguments-in-favor-of-prochoice-policy)
Pro Life Page (http://www.tfpstudentaction.org/politically-incorrect/abortion/10-reasons-why-abortion-is-evil.html)
I simply did a google search

[Sinister Intents]

I have actually met people who are pro-abortion. They would like to see the African-American community have more abortions.

In my community the pro lifer racists would love to make it mandatory for those with different skin colors or ethnicities to be sterilized, or be forced to have abortions. The conservatives in my area seem to lean towards white nationalism, and it disgusts me.

[Loony Le Fist]

I have actually met people who are pro-abortion. They would like to see the African-American community have more abortions.

Well then they're pro-abortion. But I happen to be pro-choice just like you.

I for one have never met a single person that felt that way. And whoever feels that way is a reactionary bigot. I don't think there is room on Revleft for the views of someone that feels that blacks should have more abortions.

[#FF0000]

you should probs stay restricted for being so dumb about language tbh

[Sentinel]

OP, what you need to realise is that a restriction here is not a punishment. It is a tool to moderate discussions. For example, in this case, discussions involving abortion issues on the main forums such as Discrimination are meant to start on the premise of supporting and not in any way condemning the right to have an abortion.

And yes, your preachy moralistic objections to it, and your cosen label of being 'pro-life' will be equally disruptive to those discussions, as calling for legislation against abortion would be. And that is the reason to why the rules are formed the way they are - anyone wishing to restrict womens right to abortions or holds any kind of pro life stance is restricted to OI.

Also, I'm baffled, what on earth made you think that after your legitimate appeal in the thread designed for the purpose was rejected, you could simply post a thread to discuss it on the forum proper instead? That is not how it works.

You are not allowed to start threads about your restriction, the Unfair Restrictions thread is the one and only place to discuss your restriction. If your appeal is rejected then you are to accept it.

Just as I explained to you, the rules on anti-choicers and their interpretation are not up for appeal. The community decides the rules, yes but that happens through it's representatives in the BA, not here in Opposing Ideologies. You are free to discuss the subject of abortion here in OI in the political sense, that is one of the purposes of this forum.

But if you start another thread about administrative decisions, such as your restriction, you will receive another infraction. After racking up 5 infractions, your account will be suspended and a poll to determine whether you are to be banned will be started in tye BA section.

My suggestion to you is to continue discussing the matter here in Opposing Ideologies until you get the terminology straight, as well as realise that to be allowed to post freely on RevLeft users must accept that it simply it isn't anyone elses business to condemn what a woman chooses to do with their body - be it with christian moralism or calls for reactionary legislation. After six months you may make a new appeal about your restriction in the appropriate thread, if you wish.

Thread closed.