Did Marx rape his maid? 2.0

[Sinister Intents]

I was looking at who was online and I noticed a 'guest' was looking at this thread. I opened up and found a shitty short thread from 2005 started by RedStarOverChina and his OP stated

The other day I was debating with a swiss capitalist. Infuriated by my position, he told me that Marx had raped his wife's maid in an attempt to discredit Marx. I pointed out that even if it is true it has nothing to do with out argument which was about economics.

But it still bugged me. Did he indeed rape his maid?


I'd like to see what people on RevLeft have to say to this thread: http://www.revleft.com/vb/did-marx-rape-t39325/index.html
I feel like people will have better shit to say than what was stated in this thread.

[G4b3n]

I also see reactionaries claiming that he "murdered" his children.
When in reality, the death of small children by disease (which is what happened) in early industrial society was commonplace. So, I would imagine this is false and completely fabricated until I see compelling evidence that states otherwise.

[motion denied]

Even if true, a pathetic attempt to discredit Marx's theories.

EDIT: Luís' post is hilarious.

[G4b3n]

Even if true, a pathetic attempt to discredit Marx's theories.

Well if it is true, I believe we as leftists have an obligation to recognize it and be conscious of it as aspect of the character of Marx as a human.

But that is if any notable evidence ever comes to light, which to the best of my knowledge, none has.

[Art Vandelay]

No Marx didn't rape his maid, there really isn't much more to say about it than that. As a person Marx was far from a saint, but he wasn't a rapist and his relationship with Helene Demuth was consensual. He did indeed father her child - although some people contest this and Engels later claimed to be the boy's father - who was put up for adoption and later became a family friend of the Marx's after Karl's death. As you said op, the last thread was shitty, so we don't need a second shitty thread. If you're interested on the matter, read 'love and capital.'

[BIXX]

I heard he did not rape her, but that he had consensual sex with her. He did have a child with her, and the child later reconnected with his half-siblings. I believe the siblings thought he was their brother, so the evidence does point to the fact that Marx did have sex with her.

EDIT: ice pick knows their shit.

[Sinister Intents]

No Marx didn't rape his maid, there really isn't much more to say about it than that. As a person Marx was far from a saint, but he wasn't a rapist and his relationship with Helene Demuth was consensual. He did indeed father her child - although some people contest this and Engels later claimed to be the boy's father - who was put up for adoption and later became a family friend of the Marx's after Karl's death. As you said op, the last thread was shitty, so we don't need a second shitty thread. If you're interested on the matter, read 'love and capital.'

Danke 9mm, i'll look into reading that and indeed, Let's have this moved to Non-political :)
edit: I don't really care if this thread is moved or not, or if it gets closed, maybe to OI so some restricted members can post?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

For what its worth...


Marx’s ‘Illegitimate Son’... or Gresham’s Law in the World of Scholarship

Terrell's contribution to Marx Myths and Legends goes to the disputed claim that Marx fathered an illegitimate son with the family's servant Helene Demuth. Terrell's work on this dispute draws on a life-time's study of the character and lives of all the figures in the life of Marx and his family and an impressive record of scholarship.



http://marxmyths.org/terrell-carver/article.htm

[Bala Perdida]

Yeah I just heard about him having consensual sex with her saying he'd father her child or something. This is a bit weird to be talking about via phone at an ash Wednesday mass. Jajaja. Was anybody else forced to attend by a parent or other loved one? Also I heard she was his parent's maid.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I don't think there's any evidence that the affair was not consensual, though we can all be critical of the validity of consent between an employer and their employee.

I don't see what this would have to do with the truth value of his economic theories however.

[Questionable]

No, everyone knows Stalin raped her. duh.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I don't think there's any evidence that the affair was not consensual, though we can all be critical of the validity of consent between an employer and their employee.

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I get suspicious when it comes to relationships involving people of in some kind of unequal power arrangement, like a teacher having a relationship with their student or an employer having a relationship with an employee, etc. I'm not going to say that they are all bad and wrong, buuuut...it's definitely something I'll turn a critical eye on.

[reb]

No, everyone knows Stalin raped her. duh.

What a truly great post. Thank you for adding so much to this thread at the expense of belittling rape.

[Brotto Rühle]

No, everyone knows Stalin raped her. duh.

What the hell is wrong with you?

[Sinister Intents]

What the hell is wrong with you?

I'm wondering the same fucking thing, hoping he's not a rape apologist...

[BIXX]

I wanna believe it was just a shitty thing they said without thinking. I mean, even then it's fucked but I just want that to be the truth.

[Krasnyy]

Has anyone seen the pics of Marx's daughters? I thought they were actually kind of... Hot.

[Sinister Intents]

Has anyone seen the pics of Marx's daughters? I thought they were actually kind of... Hot.

Dude, no :thumbdown: Don't even say stuff like that, especially in a thread enquiring about rape, I see that as quite... Sexist.

[Goblin]

Has anyone seen the pics of Marx's daughters? I thought they were actually kind of... Hot.

God dammit Sickle...

[#FF0000]

Has anyone seen the pics of Marx's daughters? I thought they were actually kind of... Hot.

lol

[IllumiNaughty]

Dude, no :thumbdown: Don't even say stuff like that, especially in a thread enquiring about rape, I see that as quite... Sexist.

This forum needs a sense of humor.

And Im sure this rape thing is more bs to discredit communism in an "argument".

[Sinister Intents]

This forum needs a sense of humor.

And Im sure this rape thing is more bs to discredit communism in an "argument".

Sense of humor about what? Some things should never be joked about. Also this is most likely that kind of argument, and evidence has been given well enough to go against this argument

[#FF0000]

This forum needs a sense of humor.

If you're laughing at or telling rape jokes in 2014 I think the sense of humor thing is a "you" problem

[A Psychological Symphony]

If you're laughing at or telling rape jokes in 2014 I think the sense of humor thing is a "you" problem

Nobody is laughing at rape? Everyone on this forum is so quick to get offended its completely ridiculous.

This thread is dumb. No matter what actually happened it doesn't matter anymore; you shouldn't be surprised that the responses you're getting aren't the most serious.

[#FF0000]

Nobody is laughing at rape? Everyone on this forum is so quick to get offended its completely ridiculous.

surprise surprise a revolutionary leftist forum isn't the best place to make a joke about rape who woulda thought

[A Psychological Symphony]

surprise surprise a revolutionary leftist forum isn't the best place to make a joke about rape who woulda thought

which doesn't change the fact that nobody is laughing at rape.

[RedMaterialist]

There's no evidence Marx raped his wife's lifelong "housekeeper." Helen Demuth and Jenny Marx had grown up together, Demuth as a maid for the Westphalen family. Demuth remained with Jenny Westphalen when she married Marx. She was more of a family friend, household manager and political confidante than a "maid."

It is true that she gave birth to a child while with the Marx's. Demuth was a frequent member of the discussions between Marx, Engels, and hundreds of socialists, communists and other visitors to the Marx household. In one of Marx's biographies she is described as joining Marx and Engels in hilarious laughter at their descriptions of the bourgeois. She would have had daily contact with men in London where Marx lived and worked.

The Marxes lived in a two room apartment at the time of the birth of Demuth's son. There were six members of the family, along with a maid, sometimes more than one. This is not to say that rape was not possible. We all know the social dynamics of rape in a small household.

To conclude that Demuth was raped or that Marx was the father, without any evidence, is to diminish the intelligence, personality and character of Helene Demuth. It is also well known that Marx was completely devoted to his wife. Demuth could have been attracted to hundreds of men in the circle of Marx. Remember, women are sexual beings too.

Demuth grew up in a bourgeois family and, like Jenny Marx, still retained bourgeois sentiments, as did Engels and Marx. There was nothing really unusual about household maids getting pregnant. \What would have been unusual, even for the Marxes, was to have kept the child with them.
Eleanor Marx felt guilty about Freddie not having grown up in the Marx household.

It's impossible to know who the father of Helene Demuth's son was. There's no indication of what Jenny Marx thought about the matter. She may have been bourgeois in sentiment, but she had enough of her own money to leave Marx if she believed Marx had raped her friend.

My own opinion about it is that Engels is the father (a picture of Freddie Demuth looks a lot like Engels, maybe one day they can do some kind of photo analysis of the facial features,) , and that Engels, to protect his bourgeois manufacturing reputation, decided not to acknowledge Freddie.

Anyway, it is well known now that the letter produced in 1962 alleging that Engels stated on his deathbed that Marx was the father is a fraud.

Another poster linked to Terrell Carver's "Marx Myths and Legends."

[#FF0000]

which doesn't change the fact that nobody is laughing at rape.

walk me through the mental gymnastics that leads you to the conclusion that joking about rape is not laughing at or making light of rape

[Sinister Intents]

If this thread is gonna become a thread about some rape apologist arguing that it's okay to make rape jokes or lighten up rape, then I want that person banned and this thread closed, but not trashed.

[A Psychological Symphony]

walk me through the mental gymnastics that leads you to the conclusion that joking about rape is not laughing at or making light of rape

Where was the rape joke that is clearly making light of the act of rape? I didn't see one. I saw some people saying some dumb jokes that weren't even funny, but it was nothing to throw a fit about.

[#FF0000]

Where was the rape joke that is clearly making light of the act of rape? I didn't see one. I saw some people saying some dumb jokes that weren't even funny, but it was nothing to throw a fit about.

dumb jokes that weren't funny with the subject being rape ergo making light of rape, dummy.

and the only one throwing a fit is you though. guy made joke, everyone said "haha nope fuck off with that" and then two crybabies came in (you are one) going on about how we need a sense of humor or something for some reason

[DOOM]

Where was the rape joke that is clearly making light of the act of rape? I didn't see one. I saw some people saying some dumb jokes that weren't even funny, but it was nothing to throw a fit about.

What the fuck?
Did I miss out a rape joke? I don't see one.

[Sea]

walk me through the mental gymnastics that leads you to the conclusion that joking about rape is not laughing at or making light of rapean introduction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic

For people trying to say that wasn't a rape joke, it depends on if he's making fun of rape or making fun of bourgeois historiography. That's pretty much the only way at this point that you can argue that it wasn't a rape joke (and don't expect it to hold because it's not a very good excuse)

[IllumiNaughty]

Sense of humor about what? Some things should never be joked about. Also this is most likely that kind of argument, and evidence has been given well enough to go against this argument

Where did all this come from? Because a guy said Marx's daughters were hot?


If you're laughing at or telling rape jokes in 2014 I think the sense of humor thing is a "you" problem

Who Joked about rape?

This is the first time I heard about karl marx raping someone. Like I said, its probably bullshit. I have not seen one link from anyone, neither in this thread nor the one linked to RedStar's, so dont be surprised that you might get some non serious responses.

[PhoenixAsh]

this:


No, everyone knows Stalin raped her. duh.


def not ok.

***

This:


Has anyone seen the pics of Marx's daughters? I thought they were actually kind of... Hot.

Highly inappropriate

[PhoenixAsh]

There is no evidence. There is not even a shred of contemporary doubt on the issue. Nor is there any chance of ever finding out if this were the case.

So without downplaying rape...any attention to such (highly propagandistic) allegations is speculative and severely damaging....and distracting from the core issue: revolutionary politics and economics.

As for the possibility of Marx being the (consensual) father of Jenny's friend...who the hell cares??? Why the hell is this even relevant other than in the light of biographic knowledge?

[A Psychological Symphony]

this:



def not ok.

***

This:



Highly inappropriate

Ok, lets pretend the context was Marx murdering somebody. Somebody comes in and says the same exact thing about stalin murdering the person. Are they then a murder apologist, or are they simply making fun of how ridiculous the conversation is in that you are taking an anti-left ad hominem and actualy getting worked up about it?

[PhoenixAsh]

Ok, lets pretend the context was Marx murdering somebody. Somebody comes in and says the same exact thing about stalin murdering the person. Are they then a murder apologist, or are they simply making fun of how ridiculous the conversation is in that you are taking an anti-left ad hominem and actualy getting worked up about it?

But we aren't talking about murder. We are talking about rape. Which is an entirely different subject with an entirely different social reality. Joking around on the subject trivializes the prevalence and seriousness of rape in society.

[A Psychological Symphony]

But we aren't talking about murder. We are talking about rape. Which is an entirely different subject with an entirely different social reality. Joking around on the subject trivializes the prevalence and seriousness of rape in society.

But his comment didn't actually have to trivialize rape. You all made it that way. I'm 99% sure he didn't mean to downplay the seriousness of rape, and I'm sure most of you should be able to understand that aswell. My murder analogy should work better than "But this isn't murder it's rape. completely different" because it isn't that different except for the social conditions surrounding the issues, which you are all helping to create by emphasizing his comment.

[PhoenixAsh]

But his comment didn't actually have to trivialize rape. You all made it that way. I'm 99% sure he didn't mean to downplay the seriousness of rape, and I'm sure most of you should be able to understand that aswell. My murder analogy should work better than "But this isn't murder it's rape. completely different" because it isn't that different except for the social conditions surrounding the issues, which you are all helping to create by emphasizing his comment.

Do you understand the very huge difference between murder and rape and the social conditions surrounding these two issues? Do you understand what rape is? What the prevalence of rape is? What the power dynamics in rape are? And what social structures contribute to the prevalence of rape and rape culture. If so then this shouldn't be too hard.

So yes...even when it is not meant as or wouldn't have to be seen as trivializing rape....something can trivialize rape.

Lets get things straight here...I am not calling for the posters head (yet), nobody is. But we are calling the comment for what it is. Meant or not. So you can do two things...you can argue till you are blue in the face from a wrong perspective or you can try to understand why this comment is trivializing rape.

I tell you what. You come to one of the counseling meetings of rape victims and make a joke...you know..."to lighten up" the mood or "make fun or ridiculous situations" and see how that goes.

Now I will give you a perfect example of something very similar. A colleague of mine when asked what he did on his weekend said he went to the beach to enjoy the sunny weather. Another colleague of mine replied: "well did you feel you looked pale?" Guess why that was a racist remark even when it wasn't meant that way?

[Quail]

No, everyone knows Stalin raped her. duh.

Going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is just a really, really stupid comment you made without thinking. If you do this again you will get an infraction. Rape jokes are not cool.

Same goes for this stupid comment:

Has anyone seen the pics of Marx's daughters? I thought they were actually kind of... Hot.

A general warning to everyone else: any more inappropriate comments and this thread will be closed.

---

If you don't understand why rape jokes aren't cool seriously go away and think about it before you embarrass yourself.

[Slavic]

Now I will give you a perfect example of something very similar. A colleague of mine when asked what he did on his weekend said he went to the beach to enjoy the sunny weather. Another colleague of mine replied: "well did you feel you looked pale?" Guess why that was a racist remark even when it wasn't meant that way?

I'm having a hard time understanding your analogy. How was that a racist remark?

[#FF0000]

Uh it seems like folks are confused. The joke we're talking about was Questionable's post:


No, everyone knows Stalin raped her. duh.

I mean, I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt, so I'm not saying Questionable had any malicious intent (intent doesn't mean a whole lot in communication, btw) or needs anything other than us saying "nah that's a fucked up thing to say". But folks should know better.

EDIT: I also want to point out that it was literally over and done with until folks had to come in about how we needed a sense of humor for some reason. A couple people responded to it and moved on, until A Psychological Symphony made it the topic of the next page and a half.

Make a new thread if you want to talk about it, imo.

[#FF0000]

I'm having a hard time understanding your analogy. How was that a racist remark?

I think the implication is that the person has dark skin and does not need to worry about being pale?

[A Psychological Symphony]

Uh it seems like folks are confused. The joke we're talking about was Questionable's post:



I mean, I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt, so I'm not saying Questionable had any malicious intent (intent doesn't mean a whole lot in communication, btw) or needs anything other than us saying "nah that's a fucked up thing to say". But folks should know better.

EDIT: I also want to point out that it was literally over and done with until folks had to come in about how we needed a sense of humor for some reason. A couple people responded to it and moved on, until A Psychological Symphony made it the topic of the next page and a half.

Make a new thread if you want to talk about it, imo.

Well I'm very glad you pointed that out, I was worried someone might miss it

[PhoenixAsh]

I'm having a hard time understanding your analogy. How was that a racist remark?


I think the implication is that the person has dark skin and does not need to worry about being pale?

^

Plus the implicit idea that people who aren't white do not "need to go to the beach" to get a tan and the slightly trailing undertone that people who aren't white don't go to the beach to enjoy the sunny weather.

It isn't overtly racist and it isn't meant in that way...but it pretty much is. racist.

[Rafiq]

Knowing Marx's character, an extramarital affair sounds more an act of Engels than he.