IS Ukraine situation fascist.

[bumblebee]

I had an argument with friend. I didn't argue too well because i don't want to piss him off. But i presented my argument that the Ukraine situation is fascist and he adamantly denied it. I said that the fascists hijacked the protests similar to what's happening in Syria.
His reposes
Russia helped Syria because Putin feels like a king and he wanted to help a king
Ukraine doesn't have a king.. All he wants to do is try and get land

What i said
But in Syria there are radical jihadists
in Ikraine there are nazis
it feels like the same group of people

His response
There aren't nazi's in Ukraine..
Where did you even get your facts?
Yes there are radicals in Syria.. Hezbollah was helping them
There aren't terrorist groups in Ukraine

I brought up right sector

Response
Yes they are active. They are defending the maidan square.. They are the ones who protected unarmed civilians from the Berkut who used weapons
The only reason why the right sector is considered "nazi" is because they support bandera who fought against Poland and Russia to free Ukraine from their grasp

My response

Their ideologies are fascists. They don't support EU and they wanted to remove russians from crimea thats very far right-Thats the original reason for protest

Response
That's not the case at all. Why would they support the EU after the EU let 100 civilians die? And I can see why they want to remove Russians from Ukraine. Read about the holodomore.. See what Russia did
Then you'll understand their anger. It was for EU integration before 2014
The main goal was to overthrow a tyrant who killed and injured innocent people We succeeded But now Putin is fearing for his empire and is trying to screw us over

So help me guys because i'm not sure whats the best angle to tackle this. He is Ukrainian

[Mikula Mali]

Sorry for the late replay. I think you are closer to the truth. As a Slavic myself I know easily our people are easily to manipulate, by placing us among master races. Sorry for bad words, but it's how it is.

[ckaihatsu]

In all of this I'd point out the dead-end of separatism within the existing system of nation-states -- sure, plenty of countries want, or even got, 'independence', but now that the whole global economy is experiencing extended stagnation, such "independence" isn't worth much if economic-type things can't get done across national borders.

We're seeing national *implosions* all over the place now, as with Thailand's deadlock and now a military coup with martial law, or Syria, or Central African Republic.

Even EU membership is suspect, to put it mildly, especially since that vapid political question is even causing consternation and splits within Britain.

[Hrafn]

I can post ample and clear evidence, in both pro-Western, neutral and pro-Russian sources as well as photographic evidence, of the large-scale involvement of Fascists on both sides when I get back home tomorrow.

[motion denied]

I can post ample and clear evidence, in both pro-Western, neutral and pro-Russian sources as well as photographic evidence, of the large-scale involvement of Fascists on both sides when I get back home tomorrow.

Please do so.

[4thInter]

I can post ample and clear evidence, in both pro-Western, neutral and pro-Russian sources as well as photographic evidence, of the large-scale involvement of Fascists on both sides when I get back home tomorrow.
Also facists in attempt to weaken the Ukrainian communist party torched their HQ so they can't take power. Lastly the Nazi party leader was doing the Nazi salute... :crying::mad:

[Slavic]

Also facists in attempt to weaken the Ukrainian communist party torched their HQ so they can't take power. Lastly the Nazi party leader was doing the Nazi salute... :crying::mad:

The poor poor Ukrainian communist party. Bastion of the working class.

[DOOM]

Are "fascists" involved? Yeah
But the ukrainian government is clearly NOT fascist. That's just a fallacious assumption and RT-tier propaganda.

[piet11111]

The poor poor Ukrainian communist party. Bastion of the working class.

Its only the biggest symbol of leftism (even though we know they are miles way from marx) that they are trying to illegalize and destroy through force.

Other genuine leftists will be next in line for the same treatment.

Because of this there is actually a very good reason to try and protect the ukrainian communist party even though that leadership is full of careerist elements that long ago sold out to the capitalists.

[Slavic]

here is actually a very good reason to try and protect the ukrainian communist party even though that leadership is full of careerist elements that long ago sold out to the capitalists.

Why should an organization that panders to capitalists and openly displays racists and homophobic views be supported? Is it because they have the C word in their name?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

The poor poor Ukrainian communist party. Bastion of the working class.

I'm sure there are some workers in the CP, unlike the various "autonomist" groups that are working with the Kiev government.

Of course, the Ukrainian CP is pretty bad, just like all "official" communist parties. But the thing is, one of the implicit rules on the left is that we defend socialist groups from the bourgeois state and the reactionaries, no matter how stupid their politics are. Ignore that, and you end up with things like the Healyites' involvement in the death of Iraqi communists (also from an "official" CP).

[piet11111]

Is it because they have the C word in their name?

Actually yes exactly because of that.

The Kiev regime is trying to ban and stamp out anything leftist and they start with the communist party because of its historical legacy.
They might be entirely degenerate now but do you think any other leftist in a kiev court will be able to defend him/herself by saying they never condoned the communist party ?

This is not an isolated attack on the Ukrainian communist party but the whole of the left and people are being kidnapped and beaten for being leftist.
I am unfortunately in no position to do anything about this but leaving the innocent honest members of the ukrainian communist party to the mercy of svoboda and right sector is a terrible mistake.
Its bad enough that the leadership of that party is fucking up.

[Mikula Mali]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KraS38lOoPA :)

[Hrafn]

Please do so.

Here are some facets of Fascist and far-right involvement on the side of the pro-Russian separatists. I have taken upon myself to use a lot of "pro-Russian" sources, i.e. Voice of Russia and Russia Today, state-funded sources that are highly unlikely to portray some type of Western narrative. I figure it may satisfy those of you who slavishly denounces everything from the West a Imperialist propaganda.

Pavel Gubarev

Pavel Yurevich Gubarev (born 10 February 1983) (Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Gubarev)) is the most prominent separatist leader among all the pro-Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine. He has featured prominently in media - holding press conferences, being cited regarding recent events, and so on. A former "Santa Claus for hire", he has since the uprising become central, starting off by leading government building occupations. He was apprehended by the Ukrainians on 6 March 2014, causing many, many demands for his release and frequent protests, but on 7 May he was freed in a hostage exchange.

Gubarev is the "People's Governor" of the Donetsk People's Republic, and the likewise self-proclaimed commander of the Donbass People's Militia. His wife, Ekaterina Gubareva (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekaterina_Gubareva), is the Minister of Foreign Affairs for the DPR.

Politically, Gubarev was before the crisis a member of the Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Socialist_Party_of_Ukraine), a "far-right Communist" party that advocates pan-Slavism. Before that, he was a member of Russian National Unity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_National_Unity), a Russian Neo-Nazi paramilitary organization. This is confirmed in this (http://rt.com/news/154872-gubarev-protest-ukraine-slavyansk/) Russia Today article, among other sources. One example of RNU's actions can be found in this (http://voiceofrussia.com/2010/05/14/7866710/) Voice of Russia article. On May 13, he - among with other far-right Russians - founded the New Russia Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Russia_Party).

http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2014/03/06/p18ic577dk1v3dbnaejdqr21rjb4/big.jpg
Here seen sporting the ever-present "St. George ribbon".

http://onceuponatimeinthewest1.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/pavel-gubarev.jpg
Press conference with the troops.

http://maidantranslations.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/10014643_527586280691470_557791870_n.jpg
Front row, third from the left. Russian National Unity paramilitary gathering.

http://maidantranslations.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/1911989_527586287358136_1797785759_n.jpg

The Zhirinovsky Connection

Vladimir Volfovich Zhirinovsky (born 25 April 1946) (Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Zhirinovsky)) is one of the most prominent Fascist/far-right/extreme right-wing/ultra-nationalist politicians in modern Russia. He and his Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_of_Russia) have historically had many big parliamentary successes - he came third in Russia's first presidential elections, they got 23% of the vote at their height in the 1993 Duma elections, in the latest (2011) Duma elections they scored 12.5%, etc.

Zhirinovsky is also very well known for his many "fun" views and opinions, and frequent controversial statements. He is a fan of racial supremacism, Russian irredentism, favouring genocide by use of nuclear arms, and so on. As far as Ukraine goes, he once argued that Alaska should be reconquered and that it would be "a great place to put the Ukrainians", he became a persona non grata in the country in 2006, and in 2010 he said that Eastern Ukraine would become part of Russia "in five years", claiming that "the population is largely Russian". He may have gotten a bit ahead of his five year deadline.

In his position as Russian politician, he has been involved with the transition of Crimea into Russian hands. In this (http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_03_17/Congratulation-to-Crimea-condolences-to-Americans-on-Obama-3218/) March 17 Voice of Russia article, the following is said:


The leader of the Liberal Democratic Party Vladimir Zhirinovsky announced that the State Duma it may take as little as 3 days to as much as 3 month to enact all legislation to formally enter Crimea into the Russia Federation. According to Itar-Tass he also proposed declaring March 16th a new national holiday. "And let all the people be happy and smiling."

Vladimir Zhirinovsky has additionally been a big benefactor of the Eastern Ukrainian separatists, particularly those of the Luhansk People's Republic. The Voice of Russia article Lugansk militia leader visits Moscow (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_04_11/Lugansk-militia-leader-visits-Moscow-8093/), from April 11, describes the milita leader Aleksey Mozgovoy's visit to Moscow. Mozgovoy says the following: "I'm returning back to Lugansk to support people there. I met with Vladimir Zhirinovsky and Sergey Mironov and got their support." After this, Zhirinovsky has taken to financially supporting the Luhansk separatists, and has donated one of his personal belongings to them - a GAZ Tigr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZ_Tigr), a type of "multipurpose, all-terrain infantry mobility vehicle", painted in the party colours and with the party's acronym (ЛДПР). The armoured car reportedly broke through the Ukrainian border, and is now in the use of the separatists. The video below shows Zhirinosvky announcing the donation (in Russian, no subtitles)

8WGDAfillzs

http://www.obzor.lg.ua/sites/default/files/news_images/59309090.jpg
In Russia with Zhirinovsky.

http://i3.obozrevatel.ua/8/1595953/436641.jpg
In Luhansk with the separatists.

http://ukraineinvestigation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Blue-Tiger-in-Luhansk-sent-by-Zherinovskyi-1.png
By the barricades.

Observers to Crimea

During the March 16 Crimean referendum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014), the only foreign observers in attendance were far-right/nationalist/Fascist politicians, and a fringe amount of left-wingers, from throughout Europe. These all attended upon invitation from President Putin. There are far more conclusive lists elsewhere (Searchlight, for example), but here below I have complied a list of some of the Fascist individuals invited by Putin to observe the referendum, together with sources for this. Pro-Russian sources.

Aymeric Chauprade (http://www.lepoint.fr/images/2011/07/07/sipa-349310-jpg_223172.JPG) - French. Current member of the National Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_National_(France)) (Far-right). English Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aymeric_Chauprade).

Source: Russia Today 16-03-14, Crimean ‘referendum at gunpoint’ is a myth – intl observers (http://rt.com/news/international-observers-crimea-referendum-190/)


Enrique Ravello (http://www.ateney.ru/old/esp/kart/ravello_new.jpg) - Catalan. Former member of CEDADE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CEDADE) (Neo-Nazi), former member of Terre et Peuple (http://www.terreetpeuple.com/) (Nationalist, neo-pagan), current member of Platform for Catalonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_for_Catalonia) (Far-right), member of Catalan Parliament. Guest speaker at BNP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpLl1tT0Xyk).

Source: Voice of Russia 16-03-14, No infringements of freedoms and incredibly high turnout at Crimean
referendum - observers (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_16/No-infringements-of-freedoms-and-incredibly-high-turnout-at-Crimean-referendum-observers-8417/)

Frank Creyelman (https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1632189451/111104_232.jpg) - Belgian. Former member of the Vlaams Nationale Partij (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Nationale_Partij) (Far-right), former member of the Vlaams Blok (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Blok) (Far-Right), current member of Vlaams Belang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlaams_Belang) (Far-Right, separatist), member of Flemish Parliament. Dutch Wikipedia (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Creyelman).

Source: Voice of Russia 15-03-14, International observers in Crimea complain of death threats (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_15/International-observers-in-Crimea-complain-of-receiving-death-threats-8523/)


Johannes Hübner (http://www.unzensuriert.at/sites/default/files/imagepicker/6/johannesh%C3%BCbner..jpg) - Austrian. Current member of the Freedom Party of Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria) (Far-right, populist), member of Austrian Parliament. German Wikipedia (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_H%C3%BCbner_(Politiker)).

Source: Russia Today 16-03-14, Crimean ‘referendum at gunpoint’ is a myth – intl observers (http://rt.com/news/international-observers-crimea-referendum-190/)


Ewald Johann Stadler (http://www.pittsreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/austrian-Ewald.jpg) - Austrian. Former member of the Freedom Party of Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria) (Far-right, populist), former member of the Alliance for the Future of Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_for_the_Future_of_Austria) (Right-wing populist), founder and current member of the Reform Conservatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reform_Conservatives) (Conservative), member of European Parliament. English Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewald_Stadler).

Source: Voice of Russia 17-03-14, Crimean referendum in line with int'l standards, laws – Austrian observer (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_17/Crimean-referendum-in-line-with-intl-standards-laws-Austrian-observer-8550/)


Luc Michel (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zkSazpWRFwo/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAAA/Q8ac60GO7hI/photo.jpg) - Belgian. Former member of Fédération d'action nationale et européenne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9d%C3%A9ration_d%27action_nationale_et_europ %C3%A9enne) (Neo-Nazi), founder and current member of Parti Communautaire National-Européen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parti_Communautaire_National-Europ%C3%A9en) (National Bolshevik). English Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luc_Michel).

Source: Russia Today 15-03-14, Crimea ‘calm’ ahead of referendum – intl observers (http://rt.com/news/crimea-referendum-international-observers-114/)


Mateusz Piskorski (http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/5b/b3/ee/z15643483Q,Mateusz-Piskorski-podczas-wypowiedzi-dla-telewizji.jpg) - Polish. Former member of the Polish People's Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_People%27s_Party) (Agrarian, Christian Democratic), former member of Self-Defence of the Republic of Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-Defence_of_the_Republic_of_Poland) (Nationalist, Conservative, Populist). Former member of Polish Parliament. English Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mateusz_Piskorski).

Source: Voice of Russia 16-03-14, Crimean independence referendum. LIVE UPDATES (http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_03_16/Secession-referendum-in-Crimea-LIVE-UPDATES-1196/)


Milenko Baborats (http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/images/featured/milenko_baborac.jpg) - Serbian. Current member of the Dveri Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dveri) (Far-Right, ultra-Orthodox).

Source: Russia Today 16-03-14, Crimean ‘referendum at gunpoint’ is a myth – intl observers (http://rt.com/news/international-observers-crimea-referendum-190/)


Srđa Trifković (http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/images/featured/srda_trifkovic.jpg) - Serbian-American. Anti-Islamic and anti-Semitic writer for Chronicles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicles_(magazine)#Chronicle_magazine) (Paleoconservative), former unofficial spokesperson for Republika Srpska (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republika_Srpska) (Serbian nationalist separatist state), former adviser to President Vojislav Koštunica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojislav_Ko%C5%A1tunica) (National Conservative). English Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sr%C4%91a_Trifkovi%C4%87).

Source: Russia Today 16-03-14, Crimean ‘referendum at gunpoint’ is a myth – intl observers (http://rt.com/news/international-observers-crimea-referendum-190/)


Zoran Radojicic (http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/images/featured/zoran_radojicic.jpg) - Serbian. Current member of the Dveri Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dveri) (Far-Right, ultra-Orthodox).

Source: Russia Today 16-03-14, Crimean ‘referendum at gunpoint’ is a myth – intl observers (http://rt.com/news/international-observers-crimea-referendum-190/)

[Mikula Mali]

And now they are gonna get nailed by their masters and their partners from NATO alliance, and spend their loans of 17 billion $ on bankrupt American firms, like we in Croatia had to do with Enron end Bechtel, and who knows which else.

[RedHal]

Are "fascists" involved? Yeah
But the ukrainian government is clearly NOT fascist. That's just a fallacious assumption and RT-tier propaganda.

Why fascists in quotes? Svoboda and the more extreme Right Sector are openly fascists, and if the maiden protests did not have the street fighting of the Right Sector, Yanukovich would not have been ousted so easily, if even ousted at all.

The neoliberals have used the fascists as stormtroopers and appointed Svoboda to lead the "security forces" that have been killing resistors in the East, yet the Western press are screaming Russians are the aggressors. What happpend to the West's love of "peaceful revolution"?

The Neoliberals think they can use and control the fascists, but taking the future situation of the Ukraine with IMF imposed austerity, you're going to have a huge population of angry disenfranchised youth who sees the oligarchical government as the problem. With the fascists legitimized and the left getting stamped out in western Ukraine, the fascists are just going to grow.

[RedHal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KraS38lOoPA :)


*GASP* communists attacking a NATO stooge lol

[Wonton Carter]

What happpend to the West's love of "peaceful revolution"?

It died at Kent State.

[Mikula Mali]

That was first time, it hapen again few days ago. YouTube removed video as they did with ANNA News channel, that reported about situation in Ucraine and Syria.

[CalmlikeaBomb]

Why should an organization that panders to capitalists and openly displays racists and homophobic views be supported? Is it because they have the C word in their name?

Yes. They( fascist) are attacking union halls and other left wing targets. We should be standing in brotherhood with the CP not opposing them.

[renalenin]

I agree. Why would we question the fascist reality when it is so plain for all comrades to see? The Donbass region is a heartland of the Russian Revolution and the home of many revolutionary heroes and heroes of the Great Patriotic War. The fascists are tearing down the statues of Lenin. We clearly see which side we are on, even if the Donetsk folks do sometimes stoop to nationalist images etc. in their propaganda.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[Hrafn]

I agree. Why would we question the fascist reality when it is so plain for all comrades to see? The Donbass region is a heartland of the Russian Revolution and the home of many revolutionary heroes and heroes of the Great Patriotic War. The fascists are tearing down the statues of Lenin. We clearly see which side we are on, even if the Donetsk folks do sometimes stoop to nationalist images etc. in their propaganda.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

I couldn't care less, from a political standpoint, for some old statues. From a perspective of cultural heritage, yes.

The "Donetsk folks" are ultra-nationalist Fascists, Nazis and clericists, who are bringing back the state church, who are engaging in ethnic cleansing, who are placing the working class against itself rather than against the masters. If you actively take their side, you're not on my side, or that of any revolutionarily-inclined socialist.

[Rurkel]

While calling the people in charge of self-proclaimed Donetsk republic "revolutionary anti-fascists" or something like this is stupid, when they have been engaging in ethnic cleansing?

[renalenin]

A lot of comrades hating on Novorossiya here. Maybe look at the history a bit more dear friends. The East Ukraine was built up by the coal miners and the iron workers of the USSR. In the Great Patriotic War the Nazis forced West Ukrainian peasants to massacre many in the East. Krasnodon was the location of some bad atrocities. After Stalingrad Hitler decided to make a stand and chose Saur Mogila, where he was defeated by the East Ukrainians and others at tremendous cost. Let Novorossiya be. Maybe if we are lucky this is a beginning for the Marxist-Leninist reconquest of Russia, too.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[Per Levy]

A lot of comrades hating on Novorossiya here. Maybe look at the history a bit more dear friends. The East Ukraine was built up by the coal miners and the iron workers of the USSR. In the Great Patriotic War the Nazis forced West Ukrainian peasants to massacre many in the East. Krasnodon was the location of some bad atrocities. After Stalingrad Hitler decided to make a stand and chose Saur Mogila, where he was defeated by the East Ukrainians and others at tremendous cost. Let Novorossiya be.

what exactly has this to do with what is going on right now?


Maybe if we are lucky this is a beginning for the Marxist-Leninist reconquest of Russia, too.

because last time "marxism-leninism" was the ruling ideology of russia it didnt fail misserably and wasnt completly alienated from the working masses stalinists partys claim to represent, right? if anything that will come from this it is more russian nationalism wrapped in red flags in memory to the glorious past when russia was strong and a super power.

[Hrafn]

A lot of comrades hating on Novorossiya here. Maybe look at the history a bit more dear friends. The East Ukraine was built up by the coal miners and the iron workers of the USSR. In the Great Patriotic War the Nazis forced West Ukrainian peasants to massacre many in the East. Krasnodon was the location of some bad atrocities. After Stalingrad Hitler decided to make a stand and chose Saur Mogila, where he was defeated by the East Ukrainians and others at tremendous cost. Let Novorossiya be. Maybe if we are lucky this is a beginning for the Marxist-Leninist reconquest of Russia, too.

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

Nationalist propaganda and bullshit. Pointing at historical factoids about Hitler's strategic choices almost a century ago won't help you.

"Novorossiya" is a Fascist construct, shaped by a ex-Nazi and National Bolshevik ideologues. Its intended governance is undemocratic and few rights are given to the populace, its intended economy is highly corporatist, and it has Russian Orthodoxy as the sole state religion - with all other religions (the Muslim minority, the Jewish minority, etc.) restricted if they threaten to "destroy the fabric of society and social harmony."

[Babeufist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu8KTiLsLJw
I see American (Western) leftists support American (Western) imperialism. Lenin called it "social-chauvinism".

[piet11111]

because last time "marxism-leninism" was the ruling ideology of russia it didnt fail misserably and wasnt completly alienated from the working masses stalinists partys claim to represent, right? if anything that will come from this it is more russian nationalism wrapped in red flags in memory to the glorious past when russia was strong and a super power.

If stalinism is a continuation of leninism then why did stalin have to kill virtually all of the old bolsheviks ?

From what i have read about the bolsheviks they wanted greater autonomy for Ukraine as an equal state to Russia.

[Sinred]

If the people in this thread i consecvent about their stands about the Donetsk fighters as "fascists" i can only assume your support for the people in Palestine stretch to as far as they can unite with the israeli working class. God forbid they actually strike back and defend the rights of their people...

The level of reality check in this thread is jaw dropping.
It seems like a classic example of "if the hand dont fit the glow, something is wrong with the hand".

[Slavic]

God forbid they actually strike back and defend the rights of their people...

The level of reality check in this thread is jaw dropping.


Populism and nationalism has no place in workers' movements which is why the nationalists in Donetsk should not be supported. They do not seek to empower the worker; they seek only to change the language of their oppressor.

[Sinred]

Populism and nationalism has no place in workers' movements which is why the nationalists in Donetsk should not be supported. They do not seek to empower the worker; they seek only to change the language of their oppressor.


Off course not, those savage people of donetsk should know better than that. So should the basques, catalans, irish, syrians etc etc etc.
Especially during a ethnic cleansing....

Ever heard of antimperialism or the actual existance of nations?
I would love to hear your analys of the palestinian situation.

[Geiseric]

I can post ample and clear evidence, in both pro-Western, neutral and pro-Russian sources as well as photographic evidence, of the large-scale involvement of Fascists on both sides when I get back home tomorrow.

There is not a major fascist presence in Russia. Fascism is unique to countries with a particularly decaying petit bourgeois class, which sees itself stuck between pauperism or fascism due to natural capitalist processes.

[Geiseric]

Populism and nationalism has no place in workers' movements which is why the nationalists in Donetsk should not be supported. They do not seek to empower the worker; they seek only to change the language of their oppressor.

But crazy ukrainians are trying to exterminate them. I cheered when they shot down the military plane. It means less US backed soldiers enforcing neo liberal economic policies.

[Slavic]

But crazy ukrainians are trying to exterminate them. I cheered when they shot down the military plane. It means less US backed soldiers enforcing neo liberal economic policies.

Less US back soldiers enforcing neo liberal economic policies
More Russian back soldiers enforcing neo liberal economic policies

[Slavic]

Off course not, those savage people of donetsk should know better than that. So should the basques, catalans, irish, syrians etc etc etc.
Especially during a ethnic cleansing....

Ever heard of antimperialism or the actual existance of nations?
I would love to hear your analys of the palestinian situation.

Anti-imperialism is just that, exchanging foreign capitalists for native capitalists. There is nothing worker orienated or socialist about the situation nor does having native capitalists guarentee any improvement whatsoever.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I mean I'm not going to feign sympathy for a planeload of state security goons going down, but cheering is a bit much you weirdo. I've grown weary of this conflict of the media industrial complex, that means it's time for us all to take pointless sides in the renewed Iraq conflict now. The unemployed Saddam-era Sunni troops seem like they could be presented in a vaguely left-wing light in the hands of someone who can really abuse the word objective, who's up for the challenge?

[Geiseric]

Less US back soldiers enforcing neo liberal economic policies
More Russian back soldiers enforcing neo liberal economic policies

Russian neoliberal policies such as making sure union halls arent burned down? there are no russian investments going into ukraine, there is a major chance of an energy crisis if the ukrainian govt makes closer ties to the EU. Neo liberalism is not russias priority, their priority is making sure he region doesnt become part of the "third world." Putin knows that his position is only due to his acceptance by the russian working class.

[Scheveningen]

The level of reality check in this thread is jaw dropping. Pretty much what I thought myself when I saw people in this thread describing the Ukrainian conflict in terms of 'antifascists v. fascists' and believing that Russia is protecting the interests of the workers and 'the left'.

This isn't a poor World War II re-enactment, as much as Russian media would want you to believe.
There is not a major fascist presence in Russia Not accurately 'fascist', no.
There is a major Slavic nationalist presence in Russia, and their government's support for traditional values (in opposition to the liberal individualism of Western European societies) has earned them the respect of a number of right-wing and neo-fascist groups in other countries.
This is reflected in the composition, the values and the objectives of the militias fighting in Eastern Ukraine.
Russian neoliberal policies such as making sure union halls arent burned down? Russia is just playing up fears of minorities in Ukraine to advance its geopolitical interests. When necessary, it'll do so elsewhere too.
The working class has nothing to do with it, and Russian policy couldn't care less about protecting union halls. Although I bet it finds burning union halls very advantageous from a PR point of view.

[PhoenixAsh]

No fascism in Russia?

[Scheveningen]

Not as a dominant political force, which I should bother discussing about in the context of the Ukraine crisis (that'd also led to another debate as to whether they can actually be described as 'fascists', or if we should use another term... I don't think it'd add anything to the discussion).

For what matters, I'm not saying the place isn't thriving with reactionary politics.

[PhoenixAsh]

Well that entirely depends on the definition you use of dominant.

[Scheveningen]

Just make your point. :p

[Sinred]

Anti-imperialism is just that, exchanging foreign capitalists for native capitalists. There is nothing worker orienated or socialist about the situation nor does having native capitalists guarentee any improvement whatsoever.

What a bunch of worker romantic platitudes. Your stance seems to have been very elaborated in theory but it got nothing to do with the actuall people living in the reality.
And Yes, i rather have a borgeuis "democracy" with national sovereignty and liberal rights than a fascist regime and occupation.

Im still curius, what are your stance of the palestines situation?

[renalenin]

What a bunch of worker romantic platitudes. Your stance seems to have been very elaborated in theory but it got nothing to do with the actuall people living in the reality.
And Yes, i rather have a borgeuis "democracy" with national sovereignty and liberal rights than a fascist regime and occupation.

Im still curius, what are your stance of the palestines situation?

Yes we need to remember the big picture. Number one priority is to defeat the fascists in Kiev. And their yankee and euroNazi buddies.

However the price of such victory will be high if we do not achieve socialism in some shape or form. Bourgeois democracy is only slightly better than fascism. Good for Ukraine to have neither!

:hammersickle::hammersickle::hammersickle:

[Sinred]

Pretty much what I thought myself when I saw people in this thread describing the Ukrainian conflict in terms of 'antifascists v. fascists' and believing that Russia is protecting the interests of the workers and 'the left'.

No one has ever claimed that. If your read the thread you would now i dont believe russia is there for the peoples best interests.
In fact. They have betrayed the people of donetsk and other places in ukraine. And to some extent it is a antifascist struggle. But even more so its a antiimperialist struggle.



This isn't a poor World War II re-enactment, as much as Russian media would want you to believe. Not accurately 'fascist', no.
There is a major Slavic nationalist presence in Russia, and their government's support for traditional values (in opposition to the liberal individualism of Western European societies) has earned them the respect of a number of right-wing and neo-fascist groups in other countries.
This is reflected in the composition, the values and the objectives of the militias fighting in Eastern Ukraine. Russia is just playing up fears of minorities in Ukraine to advance its geopolitical interests. When necessary, it'll do so elsewhere too.

They are activily persecuting russians. Off course nationalist tendencys would flow! What in the world do you expect ??
They are however not fascists. Im sure there is tendencys towards fascism in some of the militias. That is however not dominating and even a brigade of old soviet officers joined from israel. It is also the only place in ukraine where the jewish population is somewhat safe. Some hipocriticall fascists do not change that fact.
The communist party is rapidly gaining ground and the socialist sympathys are very big.
Nationalism does not equal fascism. This is a clear case of throwing out the kid with the bath water.


The working class has nothing to do with it, and Russian policy couldn't care less about protecting union halls. Although I bet it finds burning union halls very advantageous from a PR point of view.

Do you think the unions in east ukraine do not have strong prorussian sympathys?
After all, all they want to do is replace one oppressor with another...

[ckaihatsu]

http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/998.php


Stop the War in the Ukraine!

Antiwar Appeal of Left Forces in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus

On June 7-8 a conference of antiwar left forces from Russia, Ukraine and Belarus was held in Minsk. Its purpose was to strengthen the unity of internationalists of the three countries in the fight against the rampant violence, nationalist hysteria and repressions on both sides of the Ukrainian-Russian border. Below is text of the conference's declaration. We invite others to sign it. Translated by David Mandel.

http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/b998.jpg

We, participants of the organizational meeting of left and Marxist organizations and groups from Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, consider it our primary task to end the civil war in Ukraine. This military conflict that followed the victory of neoliberal and nationalist forces in Kiev's "Euromaidan" has claimed hundreds of lives and contributed to an unprecedented rise of chauvinism and xenophobia in Ukrainian and Russian societies. This war allows the ruling class to consolidate Ukrainian society around its political regime, distracting workers of both the west and east of the country from the fight for their social and political rights and opposes them to each other in the interests of the big bourgeoisie. The governments of Russia, the European Union and the United States exploit the civil war in Ukraine for the same purpose – the people dying in Donbas are pawns in their competition with each other.


We express our solidarity to all participants of the Ukrainian left-wing movements who fight against war, nationalism and xenophobia, and we consider it necessary to provide them all possible informational, political and material support. We oppose the pressure and repression on the part of all parties to the conflict. We oppose the pogroms, torture and kidnappings whose victims have been Ukrainian leftists, anti-fascists and other Ukrainian citizens, regardless of their political views. We also oppose political persecution in Crimea.

To stop the war – that is the main task of all left democratic movements, regardless of differences on various issues of the political agenda. To this end, we believe it is necessary to coordinate the efforts of all the opponents of the war in Ukraine and to form a mass and influential anti-war movement.

Our demands are:

We demand from the government of Ukraine immediately to put an end to the “anti-terrorist operation,” to its troops from the territory of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions and to conclude a cease-fire with the militia and of the Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics.

We demand of the parties to the conflict to sign a peace agreement for the complete cessation of hostilities, the release of all political prisoners and prisoners of war, the disbandment of armed groups.

We urge the Ukrainian government to release forcibly mobilized soldiers whose families are now organizing protests in different regions of Ukraine.

We demand from Russia, the EU and the U.S. completely to stop interfering in the Ukrainian conflict and to cease to support the participants.

We demand an end to the chauvinist campaigns conducted by the Ukrainian and Russian media, which, using the language of hatred, are one of the main instigators of the war.

We demand the adoption of a new constitution of Ukraine, new elections to the institutions of state power in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, the genuine real right to self-determination and self-government for Donbass and all regions of Ukraine.
We believe that an important condition for the formation of the anti-war movement is the informational and organizational consolidation of the left groups in the former Soviet space. To this end, we will initiate the establishment of a joint initiatives, the “Red Cross,” to help left activists and conscientious objectors from military service who have suffered, as well as an information network of leftist and Marxist groups of Belarus, Russia and Ukraine. •


Signed by:

Vladimir Ishchenko, journal of social criticism Spilne (The Commons), Ukraine
Andrew Manchuk, editor of LIVA.com.ua, association Borotba, Ukraine
Ivan Ovsyannikov, member of the Central Council of the Russian Socialist Movement, Russia
Taras Salamanyuk journal Spilne, Ukraine
Sergei Solovyov, scientific and educational journal Skepsis, Russia
Rustam Sadykov, Skepsis, Russia
Sergei Kozlovsky, a member of the Central Council of the Russian Socialist Movement, Russia
Dmitry Subbotin, journal Skepsis, Russia
George Komarov, Worker Platform, Russian Socialist Movement, Russia
Mikhail Piskunov, the Russian Socialist Movement, Russia
Artem Kirpichenok, MMT, Russia
Alexander Ivanov, the Russian Socialist Movement, Russia
Tatiana Chizhov, internet journal Prasvet, Belarus
Dmitry Isayonok, Prasvet, Belarus
Denis Denisov, Left Opposition, the Russian Socialist Movement, Ukraine-Russia
Lyudmila Barkov, Russia
Sergei Odarich, Journal LIVA.com.ua, Ukraine
Ilya Znamenskii, Russia
Elena Kuzmenok, Belarus
Catherine Ruskevich, Belarus
Alexander Markevich, RSD, Russia
Kirill Vasiliev – member of the Central Committee of the United Communist Party (CCP), Russia
Stanislav Khudzik, RSD, Russia
Dmitry Ryder, RSD, Russia
Bulat Gilmanov, RSD, Russia
Georgi Ivanov, RSD, Russia
Vlad Milevsky, RSD, Russia
Leonid Rodin, chairman of the Interregional Trade Union of Novoprof, member of the Central Committee of OKP
Eugene Valikov, OKP, Russia

[...]

[gforgx]

Let me intervene in here and have some comments.

I'm terribly surprised by some people here who are arguing that we should support Ukrainian CP and also praising Donetsk's so-called 'rebellion'. Let's simply look at their leaders. E. g., Borodai and Strelkov. Both are top management persons of Russian 'Marshall Capital' that is the largest private assets owners of the state-owned telecom company 'Rostelecom'. Borodai is a 'former' FSB (Federal Security Service) officer. All of them introduce clerical, nationalist propaganda with the only goal to divide the working class. Their so-called 'Constitution' defends private property. Their idea of 'nationalization' is about taking property of those capitalist who are unhappy with them and handing it over to themselves. Let's look at the reality. It looks like some of you are so tired of waiting for revolution or large working class movement so that you're ready to see it even looking at the reactionary coup d'etat. All of them enjoy some form of support (at the very least one of Russian mass media) of the Russian imperialism. Yes, you have to accept it that Russia IS Imperialist. Socialist should stand against it. I understand it that it's maybe hard to understand the situation from outside Ukraine or at the very least Russia. But so-called 'Donetsk Popular Republic' doesn't share the support of the broad layers of the working class of the Eastern region. Yes, there are even some rallies in support of it by supposedly miners. But look at their numbers. Working class there is mostly horrified of what's going on and doesn't want to participate in this conflict.

And few words about the Minsk conference's resolution that was published above. First of all we need to mention that OKP ('United Communist Party' that is the 'oppositional' faction of the KPRF (Communist Party of Russia) that's completely integrated into the Bonapartist regime) haven't signed that actual document. They published it to their website with the comments that it was far too critical of Russia's intervention.

Another problem of this document is that it's simply 'pacifist'. It argues for no independent action of the working class. But there is no way to stop the current conflict without it and consequently it's impossible to win the support for this idea among the working masses without constantly and patiently explaining it.

Comradely, CWI Moscow activist

[GerrardWinstanley]

Loving the contortionist efforts of certain patriots on this forum to draw attention away from the topic of the thread (the Nazi sympathies of the mass murdering Kiev regime) to those (real or imagined) of the people they are currently blowing to bits and burning alive. Shameless isn't the word.

[Hrafn]

Loving the contortionist efforts of certain patriots on this forum to draw attention away from the topic of the thread (the Nazi sympathies of the mass murdering Kiev regime) to those (real or imagined) of the people they are currently blowing to bits and burning alive. Shameless isn't the word.

And I love all those of you who shamelessly cheer on Nazis enacting corporatism, religious supremacy and ethnic cleansing, just because they happen to be fighting the Nazis you don't like.

[GerrardWinstanley]

And I love all those of you who shamelessly cheer on Nazis enacting corporatism, religious supremacy and ethnic cleansing, just because they happen to be fighting the Nazis you don't like.I'm sorry the well documented Nazi sympathies and racism of a government murdering hundreds of people (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/world/europe/un-report-details-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html) is more of a priority to me than dehumanising conjecture about the people they are killing.

[Scheveningen]

Why did you link to a piece of news which mentions "a reign of fear, if not of terror" and "people shot at checkpoints for no reason" in territory controlled by separatists, and members of armed groups who were summarily shot because they no longer wanted to fight (a wording - 'because they no longer wanted to fight...' which suggests they were shot by their commanders, not by Ukrainian troops)?

And the 34,000 Ukrainian speakers displaced from Russian-controlled Crimea because of discrimination and intimidation...

If you want to bring up sources at least try to use ones which back your arguments.

[Rurkel]

There were reports of soldiers from state Ukrainian army refusing to take part in the whole "anti-terrorist operation", though the report is extremely and ridiculously unclear on who is being shot, who is being victimized and by whom exactly (seriously, what is the value of such vague "reporting", with no incidents, names or dates?)

[Hrafn]

I'm sorry the well documented Nazi sympathies and racism of a government murdering hundreds of people (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/world/europe/un-report-details-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html) is more of a priority to me than dehumanising conjecture about the people they are killing.

I'm sorry the well documented Nazi sympathies and racism of a rebel movement and a government both murdering hundreds of people is more of a priority to me than blantantly taking the side of either and ignoring the atrocities of the other.

[Scheveningen]

There were reports of soldiers from state Ukrainian army refusing to take part in the whole "anti-terrorist operation", though the report is extremely and ridiculously unclear on who is being shot, who is being victimized and by whom exactly (seriously, what is the value of such vague "reporting" with no incidents, names or dates?)

The NYT article isn't very useful, but the mentioned UN report offers more details.

[Sinred]

Reducing the peoples fight for self determination from a US puppet state is, at best foolish. At worst, backstabbing.
Off course there are capitalists among the people of east ukraine.
That does not equal fascism or economic liberalism.
The people that rised up has been fairly clear on that they are not russian puppets. This war is first and foremost of antiimperialist nature. It is also under development and there are differense forces within the movement. And the revolutionary left once again have a rapidly growing base. As i said before: this is a clear case of throwing the kid out with the bathwater.

As for nationalist feelings: they are butchering russian people and tries to rob them off their culture. Offcourse nationalism would blossom! What do you people think would happen!
Im also fairly certain thet the working class in the middle of the civil war are NOT going to focus on the class struggle as bombs falling on their cities. The reality check in some of the posts here is amazing. Also, nationalism does not equal fascism. That is, if you wouldnt call the resistance in (for example) ireland, catalunia, palestine and iraq for fascist class treachary.

Im suprised how someone miles away, safe in front of his computer, can sit and have workerist opinions about how a slaughtered people should form their struggle.

[Sinred]

I'm sorry the well documented Nazi sympathies and racism of a rebel movement and a government both murdering hundreds of people is more of a priority to me than blantantly taking the side of either and ignoring the atrocities of the other.


Yeah there are also zionists involved in the resistance against the ukraine junta. That does not mean that they dominate or have a great influence. The communist party of ukraine may not be the party we want it to be but it tells a lot of the leftist winds that does move in the resistance.

[gforgx]

Reducing the peoples fight for self determination from a US puppet state is, at best foolish. At worst, backstabbing.
Off course there are capitalists among the people of east ukraine.
That does not equal fascism or economic liberalism.
The people that rised up has been fairly clear on that they are not russian puppets. This war is first and foremost of antiimperialist nature. It is also under development and there are differense forces within the movement. And the revolutionary left once again have a rapidly growing base. As i said before: this is a clear case of throwing the kid out with the bathwater.

As for nationalist feelings: they are butchering russian people and tries to rob them off their culture. Offcourse nationalism would blossom! What do you people think would happen!
Im also fairly certain thet the working class in the middle of the civil war are NOT going to focus on the class struggle as bombs falling on their cities. The reality check in some of the posts here is amazing. Also, nationalism does not equal fascism. That is, if you wouldnt call the resistance in (for example) ireland, catalunia, palestine and iraq for fascist class treachary.

Im suprised how someone miles away, safe in front of his computer, can sit and have workerist opinions about how a slaughtered people should form their struggle.
What kind of self-determination are you speaking of? It's simply Russian imperialism's intervention.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

"not the party we want it to be" is kind of an understatement, given their rascism and homophobia. I see two groups of armed thugs, one backed by the US, the other backed by Russia while all the normal people get to pay the price of being trapped in the middle. How far is Ukraine from Sweden? Don't you think your armed support for the separatists would be worth more than pointless text on the internet?

[Sinred]

"not the party we want it to be" is kind of an understatement, given their rascism and homophobia. I see two groups of armed thugs, one backed by the US, the other backed by Russia while all the normal people get to pay the price of being trapped in the middle. How far is Ukraine from Sweden? Don't you think your armed support for the separatists would be worth more than pointless text on the internet?

Im not the one telling people from distance how they should organise their struggle.
It is not so little ignorant and selfcentred to assume a coalition of people(mostly russians) should be organised for a socialist revolution in the middle of a ongoing massacre. If it was Russian imperialism supporting a fascist coup and persecute ukrainans, jews and communists + bombing entire citys i would support the ukraine coalition to fight as well. Talk about blaming the victim.

Can you give me any real evidence of their racism (not just nationalist sentiments) and homophobia (not from individuals but from the actual donetsk republic)?
Do we even have any real evidence that they get an active support from russia? Not saying they dont. But most of those claims, so far, have turned out to be US propaganda.

[Scheveningen]

Complaints aren't only about 'nationalist feelings'. The militias in Donetsk and Luhansk aren't offering protection against free-roaming Nazis or whatever you believe.
They are harassing, threatening and murdering people, many purely because they don't want to acquire Russian citizenship or don't want to cooperate with the militias' pan-Russian goals.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Im not the one telling people from distance how they should organise their struggle.
It is not so little ignorant and selfcentred to assume a coalition of people(mostly russians) should be organised for a socialist revolution in the middle of a ongoing massacre. If it was Russian imperialism supporting a fascist coup and persecute ukrainans, jews and communists + bombing entire citys i would support the ukraine coalition to fight as well. Talk about blaming the victim.

Can you give me any real evidence of their racism (not just nationalist sentiments) and homophobia (not from individuals but from the actual donetsk republic)?
Do we even have any real evidence that they get an active support from russia? Not saying they dont. But most of those claims, so far, have turned out to be US propaganda.

What a joke, I'm the one siding with the victims, you're cheering on one group of murderers against another. Regardless of which gang wins, the people who are going to pay the price will be the same people who always pay the price in a war waged by capitalists: the people trapped in the middle without guns. Fuck your ridiculous posturing and bloodlust.

[Sinred]

Yeah i heard that one to. Turn out it was desinformation.
Even if it was true, it doesnt really say anything about the resistance as a whole.
But maybe i am mislead. Do you have any links, sources or something about it?

[Sinred]

What a joke, I'm the one siding with the victims, you're cheering on one group of murderers against another. Regardless of which gang wins, the people who are going to pay the price will be the same people who always pay the price in a war waged by capitalists: the people trapped in the middle without guns. Fuck your ridiculous posturing and bloodlust.


Thats very big of you. Equaling the side that is slaughtering civilians en masse with the people fighting this. Oh humble one...
The warsaw uprising or the palestines situation must be a real brainkiller for you.
The war is NOT sanctioned by the russians (even if they probably prefer it) but by a people experiencing a real physical oppression and needs to fight back.
Do you value any form of national soverignaty, or is that to "fascist" or "ignoring the class struggle" for you?

Lets compensate each other. You can keep your head in your elaborated workerist world of theory and we others, non bomb-leftists, can keep the awarness of the physical reality alive.
:thumbup:

[gforgx]

Yes, there are facts.

There is recent article by independent journalist Elena Kostyuchenko. I don't know if it's already translated somewhere in English but you can give Google Translate a try: http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/64052.html. It's about Russian army recruitment offices secretly recruiting people to fight in Donetsk.

She's prominent LGBT activist at the same time and we here in Russia trust her investigations. Not to mention that she was the only journalist in Russia who intervened into Zhanaozen in Kazakhstan in 2012 and revealed all the truth of the working class struggle there and in this way served well to counter the Kazakh regime's propaganda following the massacre organized by police.

But I don't think it's very important to talk about facts. The reality is that the Russian imperialism is interested in control over the region. Thus they offer informational (through their propaganda in media) and other support to the so-called 'rebellion'. All they want is to have some kind of Abkhazia, that is controlled regime that is loyal to Russia in the Eastern Ukraine. And the most important thing is that the majority of the working class is horrified by what is going on and isn't interested in the ventures of these pro-Russian thugs.

[Sinred]

Yes, there are facts.

There is recent article by independent journalist Elena Kostyuchenko. I don't know if it's already translated somewhere in English but you can give Google Translate a try: http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/64052.html. It's about Russian army recruitment offices secretly recruiting people to fight in Donetsk.

She's prominent LGBT activist at the same time and we here in Russia trust her investigations. Not to mention that she was the only journalist in Russia who intervened into Zhanaozen in Kazakhstan in 2012 and revealed all the truth of the working class struggle there and in this way served well to counter the Kazakh regime's propaganda following the massacre organized by police.

But I don't think it's very important to talk about facts. The reality is that the Russian imperialism is interested in control over the region. Thus they offer informational (through their propaganda in media) and other support to the so-called 'rebellion'. All they want is to have some kind of Abkhazia, that is controlled regime that is loyal to Russia in the Eastern Ukraine. And the most important thing is that the majority of the working class is horrified by what is going on and isn't interested in the ventures of these pro-Russian thugs.


Thanks for the info!
I will try read it when i get time and energy. But my eyes bleeds from using bing translate.
Any english sources?


All they want is to have some kind of Abkhazia, that is controlled regime that is loyal to Russia in the Eastern Ukraine. And the most important thing is that the majority of the working class is horrified by what is going on and isn't interested in the ventures of these pro-Russian thugs.

Which group is these people in. The militia as whole?
I have no illusions about there are assholes and reactionary forces in the resistence as well. But the resistence to getting bombed and persecuted is legit either way.

[Hagalaz]

But what will be the next step if the CP can gain real traction?

[consuming negativity]

I don't trust the media to report this situation the way it is. Anybody know of any local sources where I can read up on what's going on in this "People's Republic" or however they are styling themselves? Translation is necessary as I don't speak Ukrainian and can barely sound out Cyrillic letters.

[Hrafn]

I don't trust the media to report this situation the way it is. Anybody know of any local sources where I can read up on what's going on in this "People's Republic" or however they are styling themselves? Translation is necessary as I don't speak Ukrainian and can barely sound out Cyrillic letters.

I doubt you'll find many local sources. Journalism is heavily suppressed.

[Slavic]

I doubt you'll find many local sources. Journalism is heavily suppressed.

That itself is an indicator.

[Left Voice]

Sorry to bump such an old thread, but I couldn't find another thread about this.

A couple of days ago, pro-Russian separatist leader Aleksey Mozgovoy was killed. This isn't that significant in the context of the conflict, but the Anarcho-Communism page on Facebook has been obsessed with this. A brief look at the Wikipedia page for the guy brings up gems such as:


If tomorrow I see in a cafe, in a pub even one young lady, she will be arrested ... А woman should be the guardian of the hearth, the mother. And what kind of mothers do they become after pubs? ... A woman should stay in the house baking pirozhki and only celebrate [meaning "drink" in this context] on the International Women's Day. It is time to remember that you are Russian! It is time to get your spirituality back!Why on earth are 'anarcho-communists' so concerned about somebody who is evidently a sexist nationalist reactionary which evident communist leanings? Yes, there are fascists on the Ukrainian side. Does that mean we should blindly support all those who oppose them, regardless of how reactionary they evidently are?

[Comrade Jacob]

I remember when they tore down Lenin statues and the whole of revleft got on my case and spouting bollocks how they weren't fascists as I was saying. I think it is very clear that they are. Allow me to gloat.