Whats it with homosexual males and acting camp?

[Schumpeter]

Whats the point? Are they ascribing to a traditional female gender role?
I also don't get why people ask gay couples, who is the women? As they are really just asking who is submissive? Why can't we just have gender neutral, non dom/sub relationships? Why do we assume this and why do some gays feel a need to perpetuate it?

(obviously not all homosexual males)

This video makes my point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3h6es6zh1c

why bother with the campiness at all?

[Art Vandelay]

Whats the point?

I have no idea what camp means, but why does it matter?


Are they ascribing to a traditional female gender role?

Males don't ascribe to traditional female gender roles, no. Is there something wrong with femininity though? There is nothing wrong with males acting 'female.' On the contrary, macho male identity tends to reflect an internalization of some of the worst aspects of our society.


I also don't get why people ask gay couples, who is the women?

I'm going to assume cause they have no idea what they are talking about. There is no woman in a male homosexual relationship.


As they are really just asking who is submissive? Why can't we just have gender neutral, non dom/sub relationships?

What is wrong with dom/sub consensual relationships?


Why do we assume this and why do some gays feel a need to perpetuate it?

Homosexuals don't 'perpetuate' anything. If an individual acts a certain way, I'd assume its because it reflects their personality and how they choose to express themselves. This thread is pretty silly to be honest, if you have an issue with some perceived homosexual identity, I'd suggest taking a look at why that is, what it reflects, the ways in which you've internalized negative aspects of hetero-patriarchy, etc...and do your best to go about changing it.

[Quail]

Whaaaat? There are men who are "masculine" and men who are "feminine" and it isn't just gay men who are towards the "feminine" end of the spectrum. I saw the title to this thread and expected to see a troll post, so I'm going to remind you that homophobia is not acceptable on Revleft, and making sweeping generalisations about gay men is homophobic.

Also, people ask same sex couples, "Who is the man/woman?" because somehow they can't imagine a couple that doesn't conform to heteronormative gender roles.

[sosolo]

If you were to change the question to "Why do black people act like thugs?", perhaps you'd see how ridiculous this question is. Some of us like to "camp it up", because its FUN.

Also, people's sex lives are none of your business. Sub/Dom, top/bottom, whatever. Why should it bother you?

Instead of concentrating on how gay people act, why not work toward a society without oppression(i.e., a socialist one)?

[Schumpeter]

I have no idea what camp means, but why does it matter?



Males don't ascribe to traditional female gender roles, no. Is there something wrong with femininity though? There is nothing wrong with males acting 'female.' On the contrary, macho male identity tends to reflect an internalization of some of the worst aspects of our society.



I'm going to assume cause they have no idea what they are talking about. There is no woman in a male homosexual relationship.



What is wrong with dom/sub consensual relationships?



Homosexuals don't 'perpetuate' anything. If an individual acts a certain way, I'd assume its because it reflects their personality and how they choose to express themselves.

I think it matters because I don't like gender roles and I see it as mimicking the female gender role, why not a gender neutral relationship?

People often ask gay couples "who is the man and who is the woman" but really they mean who is the dominant and who is the submissive, the dominant being the man and the submissive the women. Which is bad as it is associating dominance with male sexuality and submission with female sexuality.

Well we probably are defining femininity differently. Essentially femininity and masculinity are social constructs so there really isnt any reason to adopt them in a homosexual relationship. It merely reflects the gender roles that society imprints onto relationships, the typical man and women, with homosexual relationships not being also normalized.

Nothing is wrong with it, but its wrong that people associate females with sub and males with dom.

[Schumpeter]

Whaaaat? There are men who are "masculine" and men who are "feminine" and it isn't just gay men who are towards the "feminine" end of the spectrum. I saw the title to this thread and expected to see a troll post, so I'm going to remind you that homophobia is not acceptable on Revleft, and making sweeping generalisations about gay men is homophobic.

Also, people ask same sex couples, "Who is the man/woman?" because somehow they can't imagine a couple that doesn't conform to heteronormative gender roles.

I said not all gay men

[Schumpeter]

If you were to change the question to "Why do black people act like thugs?", perhaps you'd see how ridiculous this question is. Some of us like to "camp it up", because its FUN.

Also, people's sex lives are none of your business. Sub/Dom, top/bottom, whatever. Why should it bother you?

Instead of concentrating on how gay people act, why not work toward a society without oppression(i.e., a socialist one)?


Cool I wasn't suggesting that it be banned or limited etc. I was just enquring about why it exists

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Honestly the majority of people I encounter everyday do something that I find irritating or stupid, but I never waste my time trying to figure out why they are the way they are because I've got better shit to worry about. Why do you care?

[Schumpeter]

Honestly the majority of people I encounter everyday do something that I find irritating or stupid, but I never waste my time trying to figure out why they are the way they are because I've got better shit to worry about. Why do you care?

I don't like gender roles.. innit

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

So then how would a gay man who did not conform to gender roles talk/act?

[Sinister Intents]

I don't like gender roles.. innit

Well, that's good. How do you feel about homosexuality if I may ask, and I remember that thread you started about trying to end objectifying women.

[Quail]

I said not all gay men

You edited your post. I still think the title is kind of offensive. "What's it with lesbians and acting butch?" would be an equally ridiculous and offensive thread title.

As far as I can tell, you want everyone to express themselves in a "gender-neutral" fashion, to avoid replicating gender roles, which I don't really think makes sense (or at least would make the world an extremely boring place). The point of breaking down gender roles should be that everyone is free to express themselves in a way which is "masculine", "feminine", "neutral" or any combination of those. The only way someone's gender expression can be problematic is if it is imposed on them. I don't see that it's any of your business, though.

[Schumpeter]

You edited your post. I still think the title is kind of offensive. "What's it with lesbians and acting butch?" would be an equally ridiculous and offensive thread title.

As far as I can tell, you want everyone to express themselves in a "gender-neutral" fashion, to avoid replicating gender roles, which I don't really think makes sense (or at least would make the world an extremely boring place). The point of breaking down gender roles should be that everyone is free to express themselves in a way which is "masculine", "feminine", "neutral" or any combination of those. The only way someone's gender expression can be problematic is if it is imposed on them. I don't see that it's any of your business, though.

No I did not, stop lying I merely underlined it and bolded it as you failed to see it the first time.

I would like that yes, and I AM NOT SUPPORTING FORCING PEOPLE, so you have presented a straw man( in bold ).

If someone is being oppressed then of course its my business? Are you an anarcho libertarian or something? ;)

I don't find it offensive. Anything can be offensive not a reason to start banning it. I was clear about it not being all homosexuals

[Schumpeter]

So then how would a gay man who did not conform to gender roles talk/act?

As they would act as a straight man, no need to start acting camp when you come out.

[Sinister Intents]

As they would act as a straight man, no need to start acting camp when you come out.

How does one act 'straight'? I'm quite feminine for a 'straight' man.

[Schumpeter]

How does one act 'straight'? I'm quite feminine for a 'straight' man.

That my point you dont act straight and you dont act gay either, so when people come out they shouldnt act any differently

OF COURSE GAY MEN ARE GAY BEFORE THEY COME OUT BUT YOU GET MY POINT

[#FF0000]

folks who act camp probs act camp because they want to

v:mellow:v

[Hermes]

As they would act as a straight man, no need to start acting camp when you come out.

except straight people can act in a way that you'd define as 'camp', as well. which is kind of the point.

right now you're just holding up every non-normative gender expression and saying that all of them should act as their 'normal', 'straight', counterparts.

[Schumpeter]

except straight people can act in a way that you'd define as 'camp', as well. which is kind of the point.

right now you're just holding up every non-normative gender expression and saying that all of them should act as their 'normal', 'straight', counterparts.

No i'm not, I never said that straight people should act in any way.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

As they would act as a straight man, no need to start acting camp when you come out.

Well, besides there not being really such a thing as "acting like a straight man", they are not straight why would someone who is not straight act like someone who is straight? Whatever "acting straight" means

[Schumpeter]

Well, besides there not being really such a thing as "acting like a straight man", they are not straight why would someone who is not straight act like someone who is straight? Whatever "acting straight" means

That is my point, it shouldnt be any different as there is no acting gay or acting straight it just shouldnt exist?

So why start acting camp when you come out as sexuality is not linked to gender role.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

As they would act as a straight man, no need to start acting camp when you come out.

Isn't acting like a 'straight man' a gender role??

[Hermes]

That is my point, it shouldnt be any different as there is no acting gay or acting straight it just shouldnt exist?

So why start acting camp when you come out as sexuality is not linked to gender role.

probably because most people associate 'acting camp' with 'being gay', and so if you're still in the closet, regardless of how you feel like acting, it's safer/easier to act stereotypically masculine?

[Schumpeter]

Well, besides there not being really such a thing as "acting like a straight man", they are not straight why would someone who is not straight act like someone who is straight? Whatever "acting straight" means

Yeah thats exactly my point

[Sinister Intents]

Isn't acting like a 'straight man' a gender role??

I'd say yes. It makes me think of the other day when I heard a women talking about her boyfriend being afraid of spiders. "he should quit his B***hin' and man the fuck up" pissed me off to hear that sexist bullshit

[Schumpeter]

probably because most people associate 'acting camp' with 'being gay', and so if you're still in the closet, regardless of how you feel like acting, it's safer/easier to act stereotypically masculine?

Perhaps.

Its just shit like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SlyRu7fIzk

He is just using campness to create a product (himself to sell)

creates a stereotypical view of gay guys

you never seen 'masculine' gay men in the mediaa.

[Quail]

I would like that yes, and I AM NOT SUPPORTING FORCING PEOPLE, so you have presented a straw man( in bold ).
How is it a straw man? I'm presenting an alternative vision of a world without gender roles.


If someone is being oppressed then of course its my business? Are you an anarcho libertarian or something? ;)
My point is, it's none of your business to ask why some gay men are "feminine" and imply that that is a bad thing. However people want to express themselves isn't really anything to do with you.


I don't find it offensive. Anything can be offensive not a reason to start banning it. I was clear about it not being all homosexuals
"What is it with (group of marginalised people) and (stereotype of said group)?" - I find it difficult to believe that you see nothing potentially wrong with that sentence.

[Schumpeter]

How is it a straw man? I'm presenting an alternative vision of a world without gender roles.


My point is, it's none of your business to ask why some gay men are "feminine" and imply that that is a bad thing. However people want to express themselves isn't really anything to do with you.


"What is it with (group of marginalised people) and (stereotype of said group)?" - I find it difficult to believe that you see nothing potentially wrong with that sentence.

Because I was never talking about not giving people the freedoms. You were implying I wanted to ban being camp etc, this is a strawman and completely not true.

Gay men have a collective business? Only individual people have 'business'. Your just saying that anyone who isn't the within the group in question doesn't have the right to socially commentate on that group, which is absurd, imagine if you didnt allow men to be feminists.

BECAUSE IN MY POST I SAID ( NOT ALL GAY PEOPLE) THUS IT IS NOT A GENERALISATION I STATED IT

it is really that simple

[Quail]

Because I was never talking about not giving people the freedoms. You were implying I wanted to ban being camp etc, this is a strawman and completely not true.

Gay men have a collective business? Only individual people have 'business'. Your just saying that anyone who isn't the within the group in question doesn't have the right to socially commentate on that group, which is absurd, imagine if you didnt allow men to be feminists.

BECAUSE IN MY POST I SAID ( NOT ALL GAY PEOPLE) THUS IT IS NOT A GENERALISATION I STATED IT

it is really that simple
I'm a bit confused because you seem to be misinterpreting everything I have said, but anyway.

You said (in response to ice pick):

I think it matters because I don't like gender roles and I see it as mimicking the female gender role, why not a gender neutral relationship?
My point about it not being your business is that just because you don't like gender roles, it doesn't mean that men shouldn't act in a traditionally "feminine" way if they want to (which is implied by your words). Also, homosexual relationships don't have to consist of one "masculine" and one "feminine" partner, and even if they do, that doesn't imply that the "feminine" partner is submissive.

[PhoenixAsh]

To be fair to Schumpeter,

He did state


I also don't get why people ask gay couples, who is the women? As they are really just asking who is submissive?


People often ask gay couples "who is the man and who is the woman" but really they mean who is the dominant and who is the submissive, the dominant being the man and the submissive the women. Which is bad as it is associating dominance with male sexuality and submission with female sexuality.



And he is right....the question is in essence hetero-normative and does imply a dominant and submissive role because that is how hetero-normative people understand relationships and gender roles.

Schumpeter however is expressing his rejection of this notion.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

The point isn't that people should pretend like gender doesn't exist. The point is to break down the boundaries of what gender and sexuality is, and reject the rigid assumptions about the relationship between gender, sexuality, and biological sex.

Do you identify as a specific gender? If so, then you are a hypocrite because you are claiming that it's strange for gay people to assume a masculine and feminine dynamic and claiming that they should just be neutral. Yet, you probably identify as male or female, correct?

The point is that guys and girls don't have to be respectively masculine or feminine. Of course, you don't have to identify as any gender or sexuality. But it's bizarre that you find it strange for gay guys to assume masculine and feminine roles. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're ignorant rather than homophobic.

[The Feral Underclass]

Some suggest that 'campness', as you call it, is a cultural legacy carried over from a point in history when homosexuality was illegal or otherwise socially forbidden and certain mannerisms and behaviour helped gay men identify sexual partners.

Also, the notion that 'camp' gay men are submissive is absurd and exposes your own personal gender prejudice that dictates femininity is submissive. Just because a gay man appears feminine to you doesn't mean they are submissive.


why bother with the campiness at all?

People don't have to justify their personalities to you.


I think it matters because I don't like gender roles and I see it as mimicking the female gender role, why not a gender neutral relationship?

That's because you only see gender as binary. That's your issue.

[Slavic]

Perhaps.

Its just shit like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SlyRu7fIzk

He is just using campness to create a product (himself to sell)

creates a stereotypical view of gay guys

you never seen 'masculine' gay men in the mediaa.

There are masculine gay men in the media, you just can't readily identify them as such unless they specifically state that they are gay. The same thing can be said about "campy" gay men in the media. You can't readily identify them as gay unless they state it, BUT the society that we live in typically associates "campyness?" with gay men.

The issue isn't whether or not gay men should adopt/express "campiness?", the issue is that current society identifies "campiness?" as an expression of gay men by default.

[NGNM85]

I suspect this behavior has a neurological basis, because it does not appear to be a learned behavior, nor is it consciously affected.

[Slavic]

I suspect this behavior has a neurological basis, because it does not appear to be a learned behavior, nor is it consciously affected.

Its a personality man. Personalities change all he time.

[RealYehuda]

I am of the opinion that homosexuality is mainly down to hormones, which explains why many gay men act in a way that isn't considered masculine

[Hit The North]

"Camp" is a totally subcultural production - a performance that is entered into. It is distinct from being "effeminate", a characteristic which has no correlation with sexual orientation.

[Vanguard1917]

"Camp" is a totally subcultural production - a performance that is entered into. It is distinct from being "effeminate", a characteristic which has no correlation with sexual orientation.

True, but 'camp' wouldn't be very camp without any 'effeminacy'. Camp men have adopted mannerisms that 'society' usually associates with women.

I've heard about the argument that TAT points to in his first sentence, and it probably has some truth to it. But i'd tentatively suggest (based on guesswork - i've done no research on this) that there might be a sociological origin to the adoption of camp behaviour as well. Much of the mannerisms seem to have been inspired by the theatre and stage musicals, which have historically tended to be relatively 'gay-friendly' spheres for well-to-do gay men. Hence the 'theatrical'/histrionic and flamboyant components central to the stereotype of camp behaviour. These mannerisms might then have been transmitted to working-class gay men over time (mainly in the 20th century) to form a fairly cross-class subculture.

[Sea]

Up until this point I did not realize that there were camps for gay actors. But having lots of guys together putting on shows sounds like it might be okay. This is one front where band camp seriously did not deliver the goods (ie, in terms of horn-tooting) though. Why should I trust acting camp to be any better?

edit: In the immortal words of Jerry Seinfeld: What's up with that?
Perhaps.

Its just shit like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SlyRu7fIzk

He is just using campness to create a product (himself to sell)

creates a stereotypical view of gay guys

you never seen 'masculine' gay men in the mediaa.Also wow what an idiot. I know he's banned but how do you explain Tom's of Maine then? Or was that Finland. I don't know, they're two different countries so I get them confused.