Higher Phase of Communist Society

[MengTzu]

Dear all,

Is it possible for the Dictatorship of the Proletariat to end before the higher phase of communist society is reached? It seems to be possible.

The Dictatorship of the Proletariat comes to an end when all class distinctions disappear:

"When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms, and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class." (Communist Manifesto)

On the other hand, the higher phase of communist society is reached only after society reaches an abundance of co-operative wealth is reached:

"In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!" (Critique of the Gotha Program)

It seems possible to reach a classless society before the forces of production can produce such the abundance of goods required for the higher phase communist society. In other words, it seems possible that the higher phase of communist society does not immediately appear after the Dictatorship of the Proletariat disappears. Is this correct?

[tuwix]

The quotes that you've given tells us IMHO about disappearance of proletariat, but not disappearance of the DotP. In present condition IMHO, the DotP is just direct democracy. When during the technological progress job will become unnecessary, it means that proletariat as working class doesn't exist because there is nothing to work. bu direct democracy can stand.

[Blake's Baby]

Dear all,

Is it possible for the Dictatorship of the Proletariat to end before the higher phase of communist society is reached? It seems to be possible...

It's not only possible but necessary. The higher phase of communist society is classless. The lower phase is classless. The revolutionary dictatorship is a class society. It must preceed the higher phase, by a more or less long time.


...The Dictatorship of the Proletariat comes to an end when all class distinctions disappear:

"When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms, and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class." (Communist Manifesto)...

Yes, the revolutionary dictatorship is the period when the proletariat seizes control of society and re-organises production (indeed the whole of society).

From 'the Critique of the Gotha Programme' (Part 4):

"Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat."

So, the revolutionary dictatorship is the transitional period when the proetariat takes power and starts to destroy capitalism.


...On the other hand, the higher phase of communist society is reached only after society reaches an abundance of co-operative wealth is reached:

"In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly -- only then then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!" (Critique of the Gotha Program)

It seems possible to reach a classless society before the forces of production can produce such the abundance of goods required for the higher phase communist society. In other words, it seems possible that the higher phase of communist society does not immediately appear after the Dictatorship of the Proletariat disappears. Is this correct?

The length of any 'lower phase' will depend on the state of the productive forces. If we can take over production without much disruption then it is theoretically possible that we can reorganise society quickly, so the 'lower phase' might be very short. But that doesn't seem very likely to me, and yes it may be necessary, even after the class society has ceased, to have a 'public power' that handles the distribution of scarce resources. It's not by any means certain how long any lower phase would last.

What you really seem to be getting at is that the revolutionary dictatorship (as a class cociety) isn't the same as the lower phase of communist society (which is classless). In which case, correct, it isn't.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

The length of any 'lower phase' will depend on the state of the productive forces. If we can take over production without much disruption then it is theoretically possible that we can reorganise society quickly, so the 'lower phase' might be very short. But that doesn't seem very likely to me, and yes it may be necessary, even after the class society has ceased, to have a 'public power' that handles the distribution of scarce resources. It's not by any means certain how long any lower phase would last.


This is only tangentially related to the OP, but surely public power would continue to exist in the higher phase of the communist society? Of course, it would not be a government - its functions would be purely administrative and so on - nor would it rely on separate bodies of armed men and all that - but production would still have to be planned, economic action coordinated etc. That requires a public power.

[Blake's Baby]

When everyone's part of the government, then 'the government' as a seperate sphere of activity doesn't exist. 'administration of things' and all that. I'm not sure there would be a 'public power'. I think we'd just 'get on with it', with little more 'government' than 'right, what shall we do today?'

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

When everyone's part of the government, then 'the government' as a seperate sphere of activity doesn't exist. 'administration of things' and all that. I'm not sure there would be a 'public power'. I think we'd just 'get on with it', with little more 'government' than 'right, what shall we do today?'

Of course it wouldn't be a government - but that doesn't preclude the existence of special organs of society that would constitute the public power. Everyone can be a part of the militia or at least a militia reserve, at any time, but do you think everyone can monitor outputs from factories every day?

[Blake's Baby]

'the government' doesn't monitor outputs from factories every day. The factory committee will do that, having been given 'orders' (don't know what else to call them, maybe 'requests', like a firm's 'order book', not like military orders) by the (I guess) neighbourhood council.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

'the government' doesn't monitor outputs from factories every day. The factory committee will do that, having been given 'orders' (don't know what else to call them, maybe 'requests', like a firm's 'order book', not like military orders) by the (I guess) neighbourhood council.

I don't know - that sounds very Proudhonian to be honest. Why would planning and monitoring take place at the level of the neighborhood? It makes sense - at least to me, but maybe that's my inner bureaucrat speaking - for these things to be decided on the central level, and monitored from the center (of course the factory committee can monitor the output as well, but it's always good to have independent verification of the output data, and to compile them into a centralized database - which requires organs at the central level).

[Blake's Baby]

'central'? Decisions about getting beans from the farm up the road, or power generation from 3 miles away, need to go through the Capital of the World Head Council in Addis Ababa, even though it's 6,000 miles away and no-one there knows anything about the situation here? Isn't that a bit like me personally having to get permission from Bill Gates every time I want to edit a Word document?

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

'central'? Decisions about getting beans from the farm up the road, or power generation from 3 miles away, need to go through the Capital of the World Head Council in Addis Ababa, even though it's 6,000 miles away and no-one there knows anything about the situation here? Isn't that a bit like me personally having to get permission from Bill Gates every time I want to edit a Word document?

I doubt there will be many small farms or one-shack power generators in the communist society. But yes, I think production quotas for bean and power production, as well as the building and placement of new bean plantations and power stations, would be decided at the level of Addid Ababa. Local knowledge can be taken into account - but ultimately it's a political decision.

Getting beans from the plantation to the distribution centers is something that the local soviet could presumably organize. But there is no element of decision, here - beans are grown and processed at the plantation, and someone has to drive a truck to pick them up and drop them up at the distribution center. In the lower phase, there would be the matter of consumption quotas - which, again, are best decided at the central level. But not in the higher.

[Blake's Baby]

I live 3 miles from a power station and less than a mile from farms. I don't see that changing in the immediate aftermath of the revolution. In fact I'd expect more decentralised power generation.


I doubt there will be many small farms or one-shack power generators in the communist society. But yes, I think production quotas for bean and power production, as well as the building and placement of new bean plantations and power stations, would be decided at the level of Addid Ababa. Local knowledge can be taken into account - but ultimately it's a political decision...

I think that's ridiculous.


...Getting beans from the plantation to the distribution centers is something that the local soviet could presumably organize. But there is no element of decision, here - beans are grown and processed at the plantation, and someone has to drive a truck to pick them up and drop them up at the distribution center. In the lower phase, there would be the matter of consumption quotas - which, again, are best decided at the central level. But not in the higher.

Of course there's a decision - to get them or not to get them. Then, how much of the beans to get (or whether to get all the beans and then to try to get more from a different agricultural production centre). Addis Ababa doesn't know how many people in my neighbourhood want beans today.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

I live 3 miles from a power station and less than a mile from farms. I don't see that changing in the immediate aftermath of the revolution. In fact I'd expect more decentralised power generation.

Why? A lot of people have this strange fetish for decentralization, but what is it really good for?


So, do I have to get permission from Addis Ababa for my beans and to turn the light on?

No, that's a matter of distribution and should proceed automatically - although I really don't know why you would get your beans at the plantation instead of the distribution center.


I think that's ridiculous.

Again, why?


Of course there's a decision - to get them or not to get them. Then, how much of the beans to get (or whether to get all the beans and then to try to get more from a different agricultural production centre). Addis Ababa doesn't know how many people in my neighbourhood want beans today.

Neither does the neighborhood council, unless the first point of order of every meeting is bean procurement. Of course, systems of stock control and prediction would have to be in place - but as I said, these are fairly automatic processes. In the higher phase, there would be enough products to consistently and purposefully overestimate demand, even, eliminating any possible delays and shortages.

[MengTzu]

It's not only possible but necessary. The higher phase of communist society is classless. The lower phase is classless. The revolutionary dictatorship is a class society. It must preceed the higher phase, by a more or less long time.

Can you show me which text says that the lower phase is classless?

[Blake's Baby]

No. Can you show me a text from Marx where it isn't?

Communism is a classless society to Marx. So, if communism is classless, the first phase of communist society is classless. Not the transition between capitalist society and communist society, but the first phase of communist society.

Marx refers to the transition between capitalist society and communist society (in the 'Critique of the Gotha Programme', Part IV) as being that of the 'revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat':
"... Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat..." http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm
(http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch04.htm)


So the transition is a class society. It has a proletariat in it, so it must be. So it isn't socialism, it isn't a classless society, any more than the road to Wigan is Wigan. I took to permalinking to this section of the Critique in my sig as I end up quoting it so much on RevLeft.



Also in the 'Critique' (Part I), he refers to the 'first phase of communist society' and 'a higher phase':
"... these defects are inevitable in the first phase of communist society as it is when it has just emerged after prolonged birth pangs from capitalist society..."
"... a higher phase of communist society... only then can ... society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!" http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/ch01.htm

So the point is that for Marx there are successive phases:
1 - capitalist society;
2 - the revolutionary transformation which is still a class society, and therefore not socialism/communism (and I think is most sensibly thought of as 'final capitalism' -this is the period of the 'birth pangs', which must refer to both the effects of capitalism on the new society being created, the limitiations that we're inheriting, the psychology of capitalism, and the effects of the actions of the working class in trying to create it, ie the world revolution);
3 - the first phase of communist society in which production for human need is practiced, but we haven't reached a society of abundance (society is still marked by the 'birth pangs' but no longer suffering them, merely their after-effects - which is likely to mean the destruction of the environment caused by capitalism, and the ruinous effects of the world civil war, as well as some social and psychological conservatism, I would think);
(4 - any hypothesised other phases would go here);
5 - a society of abundance ("... to each according to need") in which the negative effects of capitalism - economically and 'psycho-socially' have been overcome.

All the phases after 'the revolutionary transformation' is complete are classless - otherwise, Marx wouldn't have called them 'communist'.

[ckaihatsu]

'the government' doesn't monitor outputs from factories every day. The factory committee will do that, having been given 'orders' (don't know what else to call them, maybe 'requests', like a firm's 'order book', not like military orders) by the (I guess) neighbourhood council.





I don't know - that sounds very Proudhonian to be honest. Why would planning and monitoring take place at the level of the neighborhood? It makes sense - at least to me, but maybe that's my inner bureaucrat speaking - for these things to be decided on the central level, and monitored from the center (of course the factory committee can monitor the output as well, but it's always good to have independent verification of the output data, and to compile them into a centralized database - which requires organs at the central level).


These matters of logistical scope really point to the question of *political* advance and coordination -- in other words, just how revolutionary has the revolution been, exactly -- ?

Here's from another, recent thread:





Also how does that relate to nationalization, if revolution comes in a wave, in one state and then another, etc, and not simultaniously across the world?





Same basic idea -- as much as possible, as quickly as possible.


Laymen explanation of concrete menachisms of planning

http://www.revleft.com/vb/laymen-explanation-concrete-t187046/index.html?p=2722408