Is North Korea being preped for invasion?

[Prometeo liberado]

Say what you will about the DPRK but after this U.N. report it's quite simple to see through this as nothing more than the first course leading to further isolation( read: mass starvation) and ultimately invasion as in the Iraqi set up and invasion. As a socialist(not saying the DPRK is)do we not have a responsibility to keep the world's working class out of this? I would think so.
Up the call for Proletarian Internationalism.

p.s. Note the "Nazi" references. :rolleyes:





The unprecedented public rebuke and warning to a head of state by a U.N. inquiry is likely to further antagonize Supreme Leader Kim Jong-un.
GENEVA — North Korean (https://www.bing.com/search?q=north%20korea&filters=ufn%3a"north korea"+sid%3a"70c7ed0d-5dca-f7cc-34bb-5ae867fd452f"&FORM=MSNOLN) security chiefs and possibly even Supreme Leader Kim Jong-un (https://www.bing.com/search?q=kim%20jong-un&filters=ufn%3a"kim jong-un"+sid%3a"d57eabf0-daef-45bf-ba07-2cf9b6b1a94b"&FORM=MSNOLN) himself should face international justice for ordering systematic torture, starvation and killings comparable to Nazi-era atrocities, U.N. investigators said on Monday.
The investigators told Kim (https://www.bing.com/search?q=kim%20jong-un&filters=ufn%3a"kim jong-un"+sid%3a"d57eabf0-daef-45bf-ba07-2cf9b6b1a94b"&FORM=MSNOLN) in a letter they were advising the United Nations to refer North Korea to the International Criminal Court (ICC), to make sure any culprits "including possibly yourself" were held accountable.
The unprecedented public rebuke and warning to a head of state by a U.N. inquiry is likely to further antagonize Kim and complicate efforts to persuade him to rein in his isolated country's nuclear weapons program and belligerent confrontations with South Korea and the West.
North Korea "categorically and totally" rejected the accusations set out in a 372-page report, saying they were based on material faked by hostile forces backed by the United States, the European Union and Japan.
Michael Kirby (https://www.bing.com/search?q=michael%20kirby%20judge&filters=ufn%3a"michael kirby judge"+sid%3a"0c4674e7-2073-a035-cd62-d81d904e6783"&FORM=MSNOLN), chairman of the U.N. Commission of Inquiry, said he expected his group's findings to "galvanize action on the part of the international community".
"These are not the occasional wrongs that can be done by officials everywhere in the world, they are wrongs against humanity, they are wrongs that shock the consciousness of humanity," Kirby (https://www.bing.com/search?q=michael%20kirby%20judge&filters=ufn%3a"michael kirby judge"+sid%3a"0c4674e7-2073-a035-cd62-d81d904e6783"&FORM=MSNOLN), a former chief justice of Australia, told journalists.
Referral to the Hague-based International Criminal Court is seen as unlikely given China's probable veto of any such move in the U.N. Security Council, diplomats told Reuters.
"Another possibility is establishment of an ad hoc tribunal like the tribunal on the former Yugoslavia," Kirby said.
The U.N. investigators also told Kim's main ally China that it might be "aiding and abetting crimes against humanity" by sending migrants and defectors back to North Korea to face torture or execution, a charge that Chinese officials dismissed.
"STRIKINGLY SIMILAR" TO NAZI ERA
The findings came out of a year-long investigation involving public testimony by defectors, including former prison camp guards, at hearings in South Korea, Japan, Britain and the United States.
Defectors included Shin Dong-hyuk (https://www.bing.com/search?q=shin%20dong-hyuk&filters=ufn%3a"shin dong-hyuk"+sid%3a"7fcd5235-d20d-b7e8-3a68-a450ee432cb7"&FORM=MSNOLN), who gave harrowing accounts of his life and escape from a prison camp. As a 13-year-old, he informed a prison guard of a plot by his mother and brother to escape and both were executed, according to a book on his life called "Escape from Camp 14 (https://www.bing.com/search?q=shin%20dong-hyuk&filters=ufn%3a"shin dong-hyuk"+sid%3a"7fcd5235-d20d-b7e8-3a68-a450ee432cb7"&FORM=MSNOLN)".
Kirby said that the crimes the team had catalogued were reminiscent of those committed by Nazis during World War Two.
"Some of them are strikingly similar," he told Reuters.
"Testimony was given ... in relation to the political prison camps of large numbers of people who were malnourished, who were effectively starved to death and then had to be disposed of in pots, burned and then buried ... It was the duty of other prisoners in the camps to dispose of them," he said.
The number of North Korean officials potentially guilty of the worst crimes, would be "running into the hundreds", he said.
The independent investigators' report cited crimes including murder, torture, rape, abductions, starvation and executions.
"The gravity, scale and nature of these violations reveal a state that does not have any parallel in the contemporary world," it said.
North Korea's diplomatic mission in Geneva dismissed the findings. "We will continue to strongly respond to the end to any attempt of regime-change and pressure under the pretext of 'human rights protection'," it said.
The two-page North Korean statement, in English, said the report was an "instrument of a political plot aimed at sabotaging the socialist system" and defaming the country.
Violations listed in the document and forwarded to Pyongyang for comment several weeks ago, "do not exist in our country".
"DELIBERATE STARVATION"
The investigators said abuses were mainly perpetrated by officials in structures that ultimately reported to Kim - state security, the Ministry of People's Security, the army, the judiciary and Workers' Party of Korea.
"It is open to inference that the officials are, in some instances, acting under your personal control," Kirby wrote in the three-page letter to Kim published as part of the report.
The team recommended targeted U.N. sanctions against civil officials and military commanders suspected of the worst crimes. It did not reveal any names, but said it had compiled a database of suspects from evidence and testimony.
Pyongyang has used food as "a means of control over the population" and "deliberate starvation" to punish political and ordinary prisoners, according to the team of 12 investigators.
Pervasive state surveillance quashed all dissent, it said.
North Korea's extermination of political prisoners over the past five decades might amount to genocide, the report added, although the legal definition of genocide normally refers to the killing of large parts of a national, ethnic or religious group.
Kirby warned China's charge d'affaires in Geneva, Wu Haitao, in a Dec 16 letter that the forced repatriations of North Korean migrants and defectors might amount to "the aiding and abetting (of) crimes against humanity", the said.
Wu, in a reply also published in the report, said the fact that some of the North Korean migrants regularly managed to get back into China after their return showed that the allegations of torture were not true.
Human Rights Watch said it hoped the report would open the U.N. Security Council's eyes to the scale of atrocities.
"By focusing only on the nuclear threat in North Korea, the Security Council is overlooking the crimes of North Korean leaders who have overseen a brutal system of gulags, public executions, disappearances, and mass starvation," said executive director Kenneth Roth.
(Editing by Andrew Heavens)

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

On the flip side, it's important that the hotch-potch allegations and testimonies from defectors are codified into a single document.

You'd hope that, especially when thinking of the DPRKs own military capabilities (including nukes), that this isn't the first step to war, but the first step towards meaningful, peaceful pressure on the government that has mis-ruled the DPRK for so long.

[Skyhilist]

Apparently numerous people who had been forced to live under awful conditions in the prison camps have said that they did some pretty sick shit when someone had a kid too. Apparently either the mother or a third party would have to drown the infant, or suffocate them, or place them face down so they couldn't breathe. Real fucking messed up and I don't see any reason that anyone should have any sympathy for that psychopath Kim Jong-Un. That said, this obviously isn't quite as bad as the Nazis - but it's pretty damn difficult to do things as awful as what the Nazis did, so that's not really saying much.

[Alexios]

Why are you rolling your eyes at Nazi allegations? It's well known that the DPRK has concentration camps, and there are tons of prisoner testimonies describing the conditions.

Thinking that an invasion is imminent is pretty naive, tbh. North Korea has very few resources compared to places like Iraq and Iran. An invasion by the US would probably just be overly costly and put them on bad terms with the other world powers. Even the supposed "allies" of the DPRK have seemed to abandon it, as Wikileaks documents showed.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

but the first step towards meaningful, peaceful pressure on the government that has mis-ruled the DPRK for so long.

Yeah, that I just cannot believe, it'll only further spur their introverted political deformity to new heights, isolated them further and make for a nice hot-bed for even worse paranoia.

In addition, fuck the UN, fuck 'human rights', fuck the DPRK and even more, fuck trying to pin down the institutional deformities on some manner of personal pathologies ("psychopath" this, that, etc).

[Future]

I support the swift downfall of North Korea. The country is one big concentration camp that treats its people worse than animals. North Korea is by far the most bourgeois institution in the world today.

[Taters]

North Korea is by far the most bourgeois institution in the world today.

So there are degrees of bourgeoisness? what's the DPRK at like 97% bourgeoisity? USA used to be top bourgeois dog but socialistic policies (obamacare) dropped its bourgeoisity to 80%.

[Leftsolidarity]

I support the swift downfall of North Korea. The country is one big concentration camp that treats its people worse than animals. North Korea is by far the most bourgeois institution in the world today.

Oh my fuck, I think I'm going to cry from the ignorance. All hail the all-knowing Wikipedia and Fox News reader.

But seriously, I don't know if the threat of invasion is more imminent than it has been (it's always there) but I do think this is going to be their new tactic for trying to discredit the Workers Party of Korea and further non-military attacks on the DPRK under phony "human rights" allegations.


On the flip side, it's important that the hotch-potch allegations and testimonies from defectors are codified into a single document.

You'd hope that, especially when thinking of the DPRKs own military capabilities (including nukes), that this isn't the first step to war, but the first step towards meaningful, peaceful pressure on the government that has mis-ruled the DPRK for so long.

Are you really naive enough to think this? When have the imperialists EVER done this?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I doubt that the DPRK risks imminent invasion. It's too hard of a nut to crack at the moment...granted, a country like the USA could probably successfully defeat the DPRK in a military struggle, but probably not without significant loss of life & not before Seoul gets turned into a crater, I imagine.

[Queen Mab]

The US is never going to invade North Korea. There's no point and it would antagonise China.

[Prometeo liberado]

Why are you rolling your eyes at Nazi allegations? It's well known that the DPRK has concentration camps, and there are tons of prisoner testimonies describing the conditions.

Thinking that an invasion is imminent is pretty naive, tbh. North Korea has very few resources compared to places like Iraq and Iran. An invasion by the US would probably just be overly costly and put them on bad terms with the other world powers. Even the supposed "allies" of the DPRK have seemed to abandon it, as Wikileaks documents showed.

I don't know how you feel about the Holocaust or Nazis does much disservice to those who went through WW2. The U.N. has a fetish with dropping the Nazi/Holocaust bombs. Serbs/Croats, Rwanda come to mind.

As for the DPRK not being prepped for an invasion because of so few resources and too costly Afghanistan was invaded for essentially one man and what looks like an extremely costly mining industry. Also, securing their nuclear arms is a long term cost effective prospect for those in the military-industrial complex.

My question is how long will the left wait until they realize that another round of working class youth are being shipped off to slaughter?

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

Oh my fuck, I think I'm going to cry from the ignorance. All hail the all-knowing Wikipedia and Fox News reader.

But seriously, I don't know if the threat of invasion is more imminent than it has been (it's always there) but I do think this is going to be their new tactic for trying to discredit the Workers Party of Korea and further non-military attacks on the DPRK under phony "human rights" allegations.

Are you really naive enough to think this? When have the imperialists EVER done this?

You say the human rights allegations are phony? Please elaborate. North Korea is highly isolated--the only people who leave are the people who leave illegally, the defectors. They'e the sole window we have into the country, and the picture they're painting of the place ain't pretty. What other perspective do you have to offer? The KCNA?:laugh:

[tachosomoza]

Oh my fuck, I think I'm going to cry from the ignorance. All hail the all-knowing Wikipedia and Fox News reader.

But seriously, I don't know if the threat of invasion is more imminent than it has been (it's always there) but I do think this is going to be their new tactic for trying to discredit the Workers Party of Korea and further non-military attacks on the DPRK under phony "human rights" allegations.



Are you really naive enough to think this? When have the imperialists EVER done this?

The WPK already does a bang up job of discrediting itself, and the human rights abuse isn't a rumor. How can you call someone else naive when you say this silly shit?

Fuck the Kims.

[Leftsolidarity]

Y'all make wayyyy too many assumptions. There's is definitely a point to destroying the DPRK for the imperialists. If there wasn't, they wouldn't prop up a puppet in the South, have the most militarized border in the world, and have such a massive and unending propaganda campaign to demonize them (so effective that it even has much of the Left parroting it). So don't come out with your grand assumptions that are based in nothing but your head. They did bomb every building over 1 story tall in the North, they bombed Yugoslavia, the killed Ghaddifi, they're still attacking the Syrian state, they tried to invade Cuba, they invaded Grenada, they bombed a neighborhood in Philly, etc. Most of those things don't make sense and the imperialists don't always act intelligently. They make blunders just as the workers and oppressed do. So I wouldn't put it past the imperialists to attack anyone who stands against them. To doubt that for even one day I think is foolish and dangerous.

[Leftsolidarity]

You say the human rights allegations are phony? Please elaborate. North Korea is highly isolated--the only people who leave are the people who leave illegally, the defectors. They'e the sole window we have into the country, and the picture they're painting of the place ain't pretty. What other perspective do you have to offer? The KCNA?:laugh:

So believe the imperialist media and the defectors trying to win favor with them? And you think listening to KCNA is absurd? Yeah, I think I'll actually listen to the perspective of the WPK and not the biggest imperialists in the world. Anti-imperialism 101.


The WPK already does a bang up job of discrediting itself, and the human rights abuse isn't a rumor. How can you call someone else naive when you say this silly shit?

Fuck the Kims.

How is it on the other side of the barricades with the imperialists?

[Os Cangaceiros]

As for the DPRK not being prepped for an invasion because of so few resources and too costly Afghanistan was invaded for essentially one man and what looks like an extremely costly mining industry. Also, securing their nuclear arms is a long term cost effective prospect for those in the military-industrial complex.

The Taliban didn't really have much of anything in terms of weaponry to fight a conventional war with, so of course that invasion was cake. The DPRK has a substantial amount of conventional arms so the decision to engage won't be as easy as it was in Afghanistan or Iraq.

I mean, if you can make a persuasive argument as to why NOW is the time when an invasion is most imminent, as opposed to, say, November of 2010 when the DPRK and the South Koreans were blasting at each other with artillery fire, I'd be willing to listen to it, but I just don't see it as the situation stands now. An invasion of the DPRK would have tremendous repercussions for the USA, both from it's allies (South Korea, Japan etc) and it's competitors (China)

[tachosomoza]

How is it on the other side of the barricades with the imperialists?

Yes, I'm an imperialist for trusting the word of North Korean workers who left the country under PAIN OF DEATH over self serving, lying despots who sap the life and resources from the Korean proletariat and throw them in death camps.

[Prometeo liberado]

The Taliban didn't really have much of anything in terms of weaponry to fight a conventional war with, so of course that invasion was cake. The DPRK has a substantial amount of conventional arms so the decision to engage won't be as easy as it was in Afghanistan or Iraq.

I mean, if you can make a persuasive argument as to why NOW is the time when an invasion is most imminent, as opposed to, say, November of 2010 when the DPRK and the South Koreans were blasting at each other with artillery fire, I'd be willing to listen to it, but I just don't see it as the situation stands now. An invasion of the DPRK would have tremendous repercussions for the USA, both from it's allies (South Korea, Japan etc) and it's competitors (China)

Im not saying anything other than the wording of this report eerily mimics the language coming out of the white house just after 9/11 towards Iraq. And with the cost of containing, and the uncertainty of maintaining a watchful eye on it's nuclear arsenal only increasing, the benefits seem to far exceed the cost.
This is the standard diplomatic language of war it seems. And if this be the case how will the international left prepare to resist what would amount to a war of despot vs. imperialism.

[Tenka]

Considering China's "aiding and abetting of crimes against humanity", and there really being nothing to gain from an "invasion of DPRK", I think the western nations are just going to use this to somehow enable themselves to dictate the terms of some manner of deals with "criminal accomplice" China.

[Ali Ali Oxen Free]

Wouldn't it just be more beneficial for the West to pressure China to soften the North Korean regime into trading it's large supply of precious metals to China? China could then act as a supply for the precious metal to be sold around the world.

The West and the rest of the world would get access to the metals, China gets to make money from selling the metal, South Korea would't have to share it's wealth in a reunification, and the millions of poor North Koreans would be trapped in North Korea and wouldn't be able to move to richer countries in search of jobs. It's like a capitalists wet dream. You get the precious metal and money without the poor immigrants.

[Prof. Oblivion]

First, anyone who thinks that anyone is going to invade the DPRK any time soon is a blatantly ignorant fool. Nobody is going to bother. It runs completely contrary to literally everyone's strategic interests in the region.

Second, yes human rights can be used as a propaganda weapon, but that doesn't mean that we should ignore the actual abuses. What a ridiculous thing for so-called leftists to do, minimize war crimes and/or genocide! The DPRK is complicit in human rights abuses, and we shouldn't minimize that, I don't care how much of a Stalinist or "anti-imperialist" you are.

Third, obviously we should recognize that there is a lot of noise and lies about the DPRK, but we should also recognize that many abuses have been independently verified by numerous refugee accounts. We should take everything in the media about the DPRK with a grain of salt. That includes KCNA, probably the most unreliable source of information on Korea, comparable to the most anti-DPRK southern news sources.

[Future]

So there are degrees of bourgeoisness? what's the DPRK at like 97% bourgeoisity? USA used to be top bourgeois dog but socialistic policies (obamacare) dropped its bourgeoisity to 80%.

It's a figure of speech, chill out. I equate opression of the working class with "bourgeois". North Korea seems to me to be the most oppressive institution in the modern world.


Oh my fuck, I think I'm going to cry from the ignorance. All hail the all-knowing Wikipedia and Fox News reader.

Oh my fuck, I think I'm going to cry from seeing totalitarian bourgeois apologetics from a moderator. If you don't see the DPRK as one of the most oppressive anti-working class (and anti-humanity) institutions in the modern world then you're not a socialist and should probably go join a fascist forum. All hail international solidarity.

http://img.naij.com/n/00/7/north-korea-famine.jpg

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Ugh, cue people banging on about 'the imperialists' and that they are so much worse than Kim and Co so stop saying mean things about the 'anti-imperialist' Dee Pee Ar Kay, waaaah! Both the West and KimLand are shitty in their own special ways, not routing for either one to get their own way, just want the workers to stop getting fucked over for no good reason on a daily basis.

Anyway, invasion seems unlikely; politically the US would not gain anything from it (piss off China, echoes of the shambles that was Iraq and Afghanistan) and there wouldn't be any economic benefit (no resources to exploit). And the UN is not likely to mount their own mission, tried something similiar over 50 years ago, didn't work out too well.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

You say the human rights allegations are phony? Please elaborate. North Korea is highly isolated--the only people who leave are the people who leave illegally, the defectors. They'e the sole window we have into the country, and the picture they're painting of the place ain't pretty.

Of all the possible sources, emigres are probably the least reliable. I always look fondly on the tales Yugoslav emigres would spread about Yugoslavia. Those were always good for a laugh.

Anyway, as I recall it it is possible, although difficult, to visit the DPRK. Delegations of several parties had visited North Korea - the PPSh, as I recall it, along with an Albanian documentary crew, and the WWP.

[Per Levy]

So believe the imperialist media and the defectors trying to win favor with them? And you think listening to KCNA is absurd? Yeah, I think I'll actually listen to the perspective of the WPK and not the biggest imperialists in the world. Anti-imperialism 101.

How is it on the other side of the barricades with the imperialists?

i think if your support chinese imperialism, wich north korea is a part of, you cant call yourself an anti-imperialist. that should be anti-imperialism 101 but i guess just being against the US imperialism is enough for you. so how is it in the trenches of chinese imperialism?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Are you really naive enough to think this? When have the imperialists EVER done this?

I'm not talking about the imperialists. But with there having been some isolated examples of workers' resistance in North Korea in the past few months, if this sort of report filtered through to the North Korean workers, it might spur them into organising themselves into a proper resistance against their government.

That's the only hope, really.

[erupt]

I'm not talking about the imperialists. But with there having been some isolated examples of workers' resistance in North Korea in the past few months, if this sort of report filtered through to the North Korean workers, it might spur them into organising themselves into a proper resistance against their government.

That's the only hope, really.

I remember watching a PBS documentary a few months ago, entitled "The Secret State of North Korea". Of course, being a Western documentary, it was biased; however, there are somethings bias can't change...children begging for change, food, and clothes; orphans squatting to avoid being out in the street.

Another thing that makes me sick and is inexcusable, is that in a country finally pulling itself away from famine, the "Dear Leader" is overweight. Has anyone seen any remotely heavy North Korea citizens? That fuck is eating like a king while the country's proletariat and peasantry are still scraping plates for every extra calorie...

Or am I criticizing the last bastion of "socialism" in the 21st century? If that's the case, I don't give a fuck. I see proletariat and peasantry suffering, and that's not what socialism is.

Off with Kim's head and down with his dynasty; him and his bloodline are no better than Louis XVI or any other feudal ruler.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Yeah emigres really are not a good source of information. If you've just escaped from an authoritarian hellhole, chances are you are willing say anything to your new authorities that you think will decrease the chances of them sending you back home. I'm not going to take the reactionary anti-imp position but how many times are people going to let over the top stories of abuses aimed to babies influence their opinion on world politics? Did we ever find those Iraqi soldiers who were eating babies in Kuwait or the 'african mercenaries' Gaddafi was paying to murder babies during the Libyan civil war?

[The Feral Underclass]

The West are never going to use military action against North Korea. Not unless they want to create a nuclear conflict, or at the very least a war with China. There is also nothing of economic or strategic value in occupying North Korea.

[Fakeblock]

So believe the imperialist media and the defectors trying to win favor with them? And you think listening to KCNA is absurd? Yeah, I think I'll actually listen to the perspective of the WPK and not the biggest imperialists in the world. Anti-imperialism 101.

What makes you think that the WPK is a more reliable source than the "imperialist media"?

[Thirsty Crow]

What makes you think that the WPK is a more reliable source than the "imperialist media"?
Because it isn't imperialist, by definition, and proclaims itself a party ruling over a socialist regime.
I honestly believe that it is this simple.

[The Feral Underclass]

Because it isn't imperialist, by definition, and proclaims itself a party ruling over a socialist regime.
I honestly believe that it is this simple.

But it isn't a socialist regime. It's a dynastic totalitarian regime that uses workerist rhetoric, aesthetics and symbology to justify itself.

[Thirsty Crow]

But it isn't a socialist regime. It's a dynastic totalitarian regime that uses workerist rhetoric, aesthetics and symbology to justify itself.
I meant, I do think it's that simple to people who do subscribe to that particular view of what it is possible to call a socialist regime, not that I agree with the view.

[RedHal]

I remember watching a PBS documentary a few months ago, entitled "The Secret State of North Korea". Of course, being a Western documentary, it was biased; however, there are somethings bias can't change...children begging for change, food, and clothes; orphans squatting to avoid being out in the street.


and this is exclusive to the DPRK? If Canada were a target of the US, they could easily goto any inner city and find something similar.

The report is headed by an Australian judge, why compare DPRK to the Nazi Germany, why not just look at his own country's treatment of the Aboriginals and if he wants to bring up genocide please reference Tazmania's genocide of their indigenous populution

[Jambo]

Ugh, cue people banging on about 'the imperialists' and that they are so much worse than Kim and Co so stop saying mean things about the 'anti-imperialist' Dee Pee Ar Kay, waaaah! Both the West and KimLand are shitty in their own special ways, not routing for either one to get their own way, just want the workers to stop getting fucked over for no good reason on a daily basis.

Bingo.

[Rafiq]

It's revolting to see this prattle of "totalitarianism", which even the sensible caste of bourgeois intellectuals don't take seriously.

[Rafiq]

And this talk of "the Kims" is profoundly idiotic. As if North Korea is the summation of a single person's political power. It's why users here will never form a criticism of North Korea with any substance, with all their simplistic bullshit.

[Sabot Cat]

This kind of apologia is good inspiration for my dystopian fiction, at the very least.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

And this talk of "the Kims" is profoundly idiotic. As if North Korea is the summation of a single person's political power. It's why users here will never form a criticism of North Korea with any substance, with all their simplistic bullshit.

I can only imagine if the USA had 3 Bushs, Clintons or Obamas in a row. You would be up in arms.

North Korea might not be the summation of a single person's political power, but it is still pretty clearly a dynastic regime that has far, far more in common with ideas of monarchy than anything even vaguely resembling democratic selection.

It amazes me that people can dismiss liberal democracy whilst defending a triple-Kim dynasty. The gymnastics of logic are astounding. Never under-estimate the power of red flags and linguistic homage to socialism.

[tachosomoza]

Apologizing for and supporting the DPRK really helps dispel the myths planted in the minds of US workers that socialism is totalitarian corruption.

[Prometeo liberado]

Second, yes human rights can be used as a propaganda weapon, but that doesn't mean that we should ignore the actual abuses. What a ridiculous thing for so-called leftists to do, minimize war crimes and/or genocide! The DPRK is complicit in human rights abuses, and we shouldn't minimize that, I don't care how much of a Stalinist or "anti-imperialist" you are.

No, don't minimize it at all. In fact we should all be screaming "Nazis!". And what do we do with Nazis? We offer up a devil for the masses to hang, and viola! problem solved.
It worked so well in Iraq I can't understand why it wouldn't here.

[tachosomoza]

And this talk of "the Kims" is profoundly idiotic. As if North Korea is the summation of a single person's political power. It's why users here will never form a criticism of North Korea with any substance, with all their simplistic bullshit.

It's not the summation of a single person's political power, it's the summation of a family's political power. Yes, the Kims run North Korea. They putz around the country in luxury trains while their people starve. They send their children to university in Switzerland and France while the children of the North Korean workers are indoctrinated into personality cults. They drink fine wines and liquors and gourmet food from the west at the expense of the workers. They live in palatial splendor while the people live in shacks.

But, they hate the US and throw out pretty words! Support them or be an imperialist stooge!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

No, don't minimize it at all. In fact we should all be screaming "Nazis!". And what do we do with Nazis? We offer up a devil for the masses to hang, and viola! problem solved.
It worked so well in Iraq I can't understand why it wouldn't here.

All very well, but saying this without offering any solution to what is clearly a terrible situation in North Korea essentially comes across as apologism.

So, what do you think should be done regarding North Korea?

[Prometeo liberado]

All very well, but saying this without offering any solution to what is clearly a terrible situation in North Korea essentially comes across as apologism.

So, what do you think should be done regarding North Korea?

Apologism?:rolleyes:
Please. Why is the west so hell bent on bolstering the little man's self esteem with all the saber rattling and war drums?
Apologism?
That's what is happening everyday that Iraq and Afghanistan wake up to the nightmare of American "liberation" and the U.S. don't blink an eye.

Me? What would I do? Shit, stop talking crap and picking fights with the father just so I could fuck up the kids.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Apologism?:rolleyes:
Please. Why is the west so hell bent on bolstering the little man's self esteem with all the saber rattling and war drums?
Apologism?
That's what is happening everyday that Iraq and Afghanistan wake up to the nightmare of American "liberation" and the U.S. don't blink an eye.

Me? What would I do? Shit, stop talking crap and picking fights with the father just so I could fuck up the kids.

See, as you know someone like me clearly supports precisely 0% of what has gone on in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So i'm curious as to why you bring that up, then refuse to actually outline any potential solutions you've had to the situation in North Korea.

Probably because, for some reason, you've spent no time thinking about the fact that North Korea is a hugely problematic part of the world, and instead spent your time working yourself up into paranoia and defensiveness over the whole situation.

It'd be nice for once to be able to discuss countries like North Korea without being polarised as either some imperialist or Kim-defender.

[Orange Juche]

The West are never going to use military action against North Korea. Not unless they want to create a nuclear conflict, or at the very least a war with China. There is also nothing of economic or strategic value in occupying North Korea.

If anything, their existence is a good propaganda piece against anti-capitalism.

[Rafiq]

I can only imagine if the USA had 3 Bushs, Clintons or Obamas in a row. You would be up in arms.


The United States is a country with a historically conscious proletariat, a country which has been shaped by decades of class struggle, which our "civil liberties" and standard of living are owed to. Of course we would hold it to a higher standard. A country which is undoubtedly ranked among those who posses the most developed forms of the capitalist mode of production, given the political and historical circumstances, if the United States were to adopt some sort of government based on hereditary rule it would ignite social strife. Talk of such a situation is ridiculous, though, because the conditions which would lay the foundations for such a government do not, and have never existed in the United States. North Korea, on the contrary, is the excrement of the failure of 20th century Communism, a state which has through several decades degenerated in correspondence with the dissolution of the Communist bloc and changes in global geopolitics. A third world country, in a state of prolonged isolation which can hardly sustain itself is hardly comparable to the United States in any meaningful way.

No one is defending the North Korean state, indeed, it is a despotic and backward country. Most criticisms of North Korea I find, however, breath life into false ideological premises rather than into any meaningful analysis of the country. People find humor in the alleged ridiculousness of the North Korean state, without understanding the social, historical and political context from which such 'ridiculousness' arose. Make no mistake, North Korea is a broken country with an impotent, and desperately pathetic state apparatus. What it is not, however, is a playground for the Kim family. Kim Jong Un does not posses absolute political power, the military apparatus does. Neither did his father.

But such degeneracy did not arise from nowhere, it is a logical consequence of different circumstances present throughout the existence of the country. Here I am by no means attempting to espouse any form of apologia, I would shed no tears for the dissolution of the North Korean state. I don't care for "democratic selection" within the context of international capitalism. I don't see ideological legitimacy in a bourgeois state because their leaders were "democratically selected". For example, if Obama were to declare himself Emperor, dissolve Congress and repress the conservative opposition, I would have absolutely no qualms, or, to be more specific, I would not be any more opposed to the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie than I already am. Not because of some worthless ethical framework, but because my political allegiance resides solely with the revolutionary proletariat, it is a matter of choosing sides which there can be no room for pluralism.

I am appalled that there is an argumentative standard revolving around support for the North Korean state, to debate over the legitimacy of it is ridiculous, it is insanity for anyone to defend North Korea as a Communist state, by 20th century standards (I.e. in a way comparable to Cuba).

[Broviet Union]

Isn't it intellectually en vogue to consider DPRK a fascist regime? With their nationalism, overt militarism, and racial stratification?

[Prometeo liberado]

See, as you know someone like me clearly supports precisely 0% of what has gone on in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So i'm curious as to why you bring that up, then refuse to actually outline any potential solutions you've had to the situation in North Korea.

Probably because, for some reason, you've spent no time thinking about the fact that North Korea is a hugely problematic part of the world, and instead spent your time working yourself up into paranoia and defensiveness over the whole situation.

It'd be nice for once to be able to discuss countries like North Korea without being polarised as either some imperialist or Kim-defender.

Pretty sure it was clear but I'll try again before Dallas starts on TNT. Alright, yes the DPRK is a messy part of the world. And the mid-east isn't? Being alarmed by sabre rattling should spook anyone. But if you call it paranoia or here we go again or whatever, to not want to at least engage the "what ifs" when confronted by the possibility, no matter how remote, is callous to say the least. The world should be demanding that the DPRK be dealt with first through it's benefactors and not through insanely worded U.N. documents and cries of Nazis.

And when did I say imperialist or Kim-defender, one or the other?

Oh, and no I don't know what someone like you clearly supports. That's why we're here. My bad.

[Rafiq]

It's not the summation of a single person's political power, it's the summation of a family's political power. Yes, the Kims run North Korea. They putz around the country in luxury trains while their people starve. They send their children to university in Switzerland and France while the children of the North Korean workers are indoctrinated into personality cults. They drink fine wines and liquors and gourmet food from the west at the expense of the workers. They live in palatial splendor while the people live in shacks.

But, they hate the US and throw out pretty words! Support them or be an imperialist stooge!

You make it as if the kims are so numerous that they can actually compose a social class. You're an ideological clown. You espouse broken, and confused rhetoric, you direct what you attempt to appear as left-populist rhetoric in a context where it does not belong. It's cute to see you attempt to make this impassioned, confused position with regard North Korea, and none the less sad. It's similar to Chomsky referring to the destruction of the Soviet Union as a "victory to socialism". You're stuck in an ideological deadlock, unable to form a coherent, consistent position, and so you make an ass out of yourself. Make you should re-evaluate the ideological presumptions you carry which disallow you to make a thorough criticism of North Korea in the first place, instead of taking them to the end and making an ass out of yourself.

North Korea is not particularly a unique case in the ways you describe it, there are plenty of reactionary despots in the world, from central Africa to the Middle East, from Southern Asia to the far east. Your own insecurity, your own left wing impotence and confusion forms the views that you hold. I pity you, in all your theoretical worthlessness. And you, you dare attempt to dismiss me as an anti-imperialist? Am I particularly known for my alleged hatred of the United States, or my alleged tendency to support those that oppose it? Why do I even waste energy anymore.. You're just a moron, and a waste of my time. Do you think yourself unique? Do you think there's anything about you which distinguishes you from any other confused political degenerate on this site? The entirety of your political constitution completely relies on the hegemony of bourgeois ideology, you simply negatively affirm the ideological state apparatus, like Satanism does Christianity.

Or should it be apparent that you have a lot in common with North Korea, namely, you are both the excrement of 20th century Communism, you are the rotten shit stains left behind by the failure of the October revolution. Or you're just a bourgeois ideologue who veils himself with rhetoric he has no right to. And just so you don't take this personally, this post is directed at the majority of users in this thread who have espoused views similiarly to, trust me, I don't think you that distinct in your ideological impotence.

[Prof. Oblivion]

The West are never going to use military action against North Korea. Not unless they want to create a nuclear conflict, or at the very least a war with China. There is also nothing of economic or strategic value in occupying North Korea.

Honestly I don't even think China would get involved. Or, more realistically, China would probably be complicit in it in order to ensure its borders weren't encroached by a state whose allegiance would sway away from it. China isn't what's keeping anyone from invading North Korea - why would anyone even bother?

[Prof. Oblivion]

and this is exclusive to the DPRK? If Canada were a target of the US, they could easily goto any inner city and find something similar.

The report is headed by an Australian judge, why compare DPRK to the Nazi Germany, why not just look at his own country's treatment of the Aboriginals and if he wants to bring up genocide please reference Tazmania's genocide of their indigenous populution

It's frankly disgusting that you would even bring that up in a discussion on this forum, where everyone here knows about and doesn't try to justify/minimize human rights abuses against Aboriginals. Stop trying to deflect, stop minimizing the human rights abuses that the DPRK is complicit in.

[tachosomoza]

Wow, many insults and curse words from Rafiq. Lovely.

You're a major league asshole.

[Prof. Oblivion]

Pretty sure it was clear but I'll try again before Dallas starts on TNT. Alright, yes the DPRK is a messy part of the world. And the mid-east isn't? Being alarmed by sabre rattling should spook anyone. But if you call it paranoia or here we go again or whatever, to not want to at least engage the "what ifs" when confronted by the possibility, no matter how remote, is callous to say the least. The world should be demanding that the DPRK be dealt with first through it's benefactors and not through insanely worded U.N. documents and cries of Nazis.

And when did I say imperialist or Kim-defender, one or the other?

Oh, and no I don't know what someone like you clearly supports. That's why we're here. My bad.

You apparently are so wrapped up in obfuscating North Korean human rights abuses (and implicitly apologizing for them), that you can't even stay on topic.

[Prometeo liberado]

You apparently are so wrapped up in obfuscating North Korean human rights abuses (and implicitly apologizing for them), that you can't even stay on topic.
Exhausting. I, for the first time ever, agree with Rafiq on something such as the DPRK and all you can come up with is apologizing? Implicitly?Is this the topic to stay on?:rolleyes: Keep workin it bill.

[Halert]

Kim Jong Un does not posses absolute political power, the military apparatus does. Neither did his father.
I personally find it very hard to get reliable information on how the political system in the DPRK really works and what life is really like there. On what basis did you come to this conclusion?

[Broviet Union]

Why the hell is the dominance or impotence of the Kim family such a goddamned emotional topic? Jesus christ.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I personally find it very hard to get reliable information on how the political system in the DPRK really works and what life is really like there. On what basis did you come to this conclusion?

No one ever has absolute power. There's no such thing except in fictional narratives; certainly not in a single person. Throughout time there is always a fine balancing act where factions of the ruling grouping must be satisfied in various ways (you can try to quell some opposition by threatening some group, but you must have the good conscious of others, or you will be ousted in a second). Consequently, the Kim cannot survive on their own, and they cannot act and do just whatever it is if it runs contrary to the interest (real or stated) of factions that support them (in the North Korean case, there's a massive military-political apparatus which, should the Kim's turn on them, would obviously not be beyond having them shot any more than it would hesitate shooting a rebellious peasant.)

[Broviet Union]

It would seem that, with the all pervasive personality cult, it is a weeeee bit complicated to remove the Kims without destroying the legitimacy of the state and causing disruption.

[Marshal of the People]

I really doubt a US invasion will ever happen, imagine the casualties the US would receive when they come up against a fully militarised nation whose citizens are so indoctrinated they will fight to the death out of fear and love, it would be as bloody as the proposed US invasion of Japan (WWII).

[Tenka]

It would seem that, with the all pervasive personality cult, it is a weeeee bit complicated to remove the Kims without destroying the legitimacy of the state and causing disruption.

No. North Koreans aren't brainwashed. If there was a military coup, it may be sold to the west as a wonderful democratic-leaning liberation while things remain the same for the North Korean proletariat (i.e., miserable).

[Marshal of the People]

No. North Koreans aren't brainwashed. If there was a military coup, it may be sold to the west as a wonderful democratic-leaning liberation while things remain the same for the North Korean proletariat (i.e., miserable).I would say they are definitely indoctrinated. It is really depressing what decades of state institutionalised fear can do not to mention the incessant Kim worshipping and propaganda.

[adipocere]

I would say they are definitely indoctrinated (I can't be certain though). It is really depressing what decades of state institutionalised fear can do not to mention the incessant Kim worshipping and propaganda.

Or perhaps you have been indoctrinated through state institutionalized fear and propaganda that seems to worship (fear-mongering coverage of) Kim. Just saying - that is quite a bit of opinion for one who admits to being uncertain.

This new report reminds me of the new report on Syrian death camps. Political.

[Marshal of the People]

Or perhaps you have been indoctrinated through state institutionalized fear and propaganda that seems to worship (fear-mongering coverage of) Kim. Just saying - that is quite a bit of opinion for one who admits to being uncertain.

This new report reminds me of the new report on Syrian death camps. Political.So North Korea is not a bad place? If it is a nice place I shall admit to being incorrect but it always seemed to be a terrible place according to North Koreans who survived and escaped.

[tachosomoza]

So North Korea is not a bad place? If it is a nice place I shall admit to being incorrect but it always seemed to be a terrible place according to North Koreans who survived and escaped.

If you like having your every move and word monitored, your entire family arrested for something you say or do, and being malnourished while your leaders party all day and night, it's wonderful.

[adipocere]

So North Korea is not a bad place? If it is a nice place I shall admit to being incorrect but it always seemed to be a terrible place according to North Koreans who survived and escaped.

I have no idea if it is a nice place or a bad place. I don't think you do either.

[Marshal of the People]

If you like having your every move and word monitored, your entire family arrested for something you say or do, and being malnourished while your leaders party all day and night, it's wonderful.You mustn't forget having your entire family executed for something you did.

[Marshal of the People]

I have no idea if it is a nice place or a bad place. I don't think you do either.I guess you are right. Then America must also not be a bad place either.

[tachosomoza]

You mustn't forget having your entire family executed for something you did.

Ssshh...Rafiq will get pissy and call us bourgeois moralists and liberals from his ivory tower again.

[Os Cangaceiros]

So North Korea is not a bad place? If it is a nice place I shall admit to being incorrect but it always seemed to be a terrible place according to North Koreans who survived and escaped.

Well, I've never been there myself, but just judging from the pictures I've seen of it (from DPRK-sympathetic tourists), it looks like a place I'd never want to live in. Both the photos of the bucolic North Korean countryside and the city of Pyongyang, which has all the aesthetic appeal of a Petropavlovsk apartment complex. In the DPRK's favor, it does have some soaring high-rises. I'm a sucker for soaring high-rises, even if they are ugly as all hell. It also seems like a nation in which conformity is expressed as a value rather explicitly, which is a societal phenomenon that I've never liked at all...conformity and a pressure to conform exists everywhere, but there are definitely degrees to how strong & widespread it is.

[Broviet Union]

The whole "Kim Jong Un executing his uncle for his debased lifestyle" thing was pretty tinpotty and dictator-y to me. But, you know, bourgeois lies or whatever.

[A Psychological Symphony]

If you like having your every move and word monitored, your entire family arrested for something you say or do, and being malnourished while your leaders party all day and night, it's wonderful.

Sounds like the good ole' USA to me!

[tachosomoza]

Sounds like the good ole' USA to me!

Errr...no.

[adipocere]

You mustn't forget having your entire family executed for something you did.
So like MOVE, or Waco, Ruby Ridge, Al-Awlaki? Or does it not count when it is extra-judicial?

[Alexios]

Sounds like the good ole' USA to me!

Grow up. While I don't disagree at all that the US state does disgusting things it's just childish to act like Americans somehow live in the same conditions as North Koreans.

[A Psychological Symphony]

I apologize for forgetting that humor flies right over leftists heads. I won't let it happen again, I promise.

[Marshal of the People]

I apologize for forgetting that humor flies right over leftists heads. I won't let it happen again, I promise.That is okay. Different people have different senses of humour, I am sure you don't find all of my jokes funny.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Guys can you perhaps stay on topic instead of throwing the juvenile insults around? If you like someone's post, use the 'thanks' button if you've nothing else to add. If you don't like it, address the points instead of trying to appear the funny person. :rolleyes:

To jbeard: the fact that you brought up Iraq/Afghanistan to me suggests the subtle implication that i'm somehow supporting imperialism. As I said before, that you cannot seem to engage in any meaningful solution-building to North Korea, even with someone like me who is 100% against imperialism and colonisation, suggests to me that you are more concerned with defending the North Korean government than wanting its downfall.

Prove me wrong if you like, but I imagine your reply will be something along the lines of another mounted defence of the DPRK.

[erupt]

So like MOVE, or Waco, Ruby Ridge, Al-Awlaki? Or does it not count when it is extra-judicial?

Those were cults segregating themselves from the rest of society. These people getting killed learn they are related to whomever when they get that knock on the door...

Don't you DPRK supporters know they removed every reference to socialism and communism in their constitution? I'm surprised Stalinists weren't up in arms over that.

The U.S. is obviously an exploitative place to live, but for you supporters of the DPRK to claim that it is in any way less exploitative and more beneficial to the citizens is downright brain-washed. I mean, none of you live there, so no-one was indoctrinated from their institutions or culture; therefore you supporters are more brain-washed than the ordinary liberal democracy sheep...at least they know nothing else since birth.

[Arlekino]

It may be little of the topic. I have meet yesterday in bar somebody whom been in North Korea, he told me is nothing about Socialism there, is a police state, so how we are so good about North Korea?

[The Feral Underclass]

Honestly I don't even think China would get involved. Or, more realistically, China would probably be complicit in it in order to ensure its borders weren't encroached by a state whose allegiance would sway away from it. China isn't what's keeping anyone from invading North Korea - why would anyone even bother?

It may not be a specific reason, but if America used military force to occupy a country that borders China, you sure as shit better believe that China will have something to say about it.

[Red Intellectual]

I support the swift downfall of North Korea. The country is one big concentration camp that treats its people worse than animals. North Korea is by far the most bourgeois institution in the world today.

You, sir, have worded this statement better than I ever could, thanks.

[erupt]

It may not be a specific reason, but if America used military force to occupy a country that borders China, you sure as shit better believe that China will have something to say about it.

Of course they'd have to something to say about it, and I'm sure they'd mobilize troops on the border.

However, the days of direct military involvement on behalf of the North are long, long gone. China would never risk it's business partners, trade deals, or geographic status quo.

Fuck, they'd be more likely to just cross the Tumen River and make a land grab in my opinion.

[Prometeo liberado]

Guys can you perhaps stay on topic instead of throwing the juvenile insults around? If you like someone's post, use the 'thanks' button if you've nothing else to add. If you don't like it, address the points instead of trying to appear the funny person. :rolleyes:

To jbeard: the fact that you brought up Iraq/Afghanistan to me suggests the subtle implication that i'm somehow supporting imperialism. As I said before, that you cannot seem to engage in any meaningful solution-building to North Korea, even with someone like me who is 100% against imperialism and colonisation, suggests to me that you are more concerned with defending the North Korean government than wanting its downfall.

Prove me wrong if you like, but I imagine your reply will be something along the lines of another mounted defence of the DPRK.

Like Ive posted again and again, this about starting a discussion as to what the left would do if war were imminent.

You think to much of yourself. Stop telling everyone your 100% against imperialism. Sounds like your selling something. We get it.

As I assumed this thread has derailed into who hates the DPRK more. Has anyone read the post? Basically my question was IF confronted with invasion how would the left react, if at all. Short of marches, petitions and grand(embarrassing) statements of general strikes what will keep one soldier from getting killed?

And please, remember,The Boss is anti-imperialist. You should all know this by now, my bbbad.

[adipocere]

Those were cults segregating themselves from the rest of society. These people getting killed learn they are related to whomever when they get that knock on the door...

So let me get this straight, you sympathize with hypothetical characters in your scary campfire story, but not real people because they have been sufficiently demonized in your eyes?

And you don't see any fundamental problem with this line of reasoning?

[The Feral Underclass]

However, the days of direct military involvement on behalf of the North are long, long gone. China would never risk it's business partners, trade deals, or geographic status quo.

So it is your view that on the invasion of a bordering country by a long-term geopolitical enemy whose intention is to seize control of the nation state, essentially stamping its authority in North Asia and setting up a satellite province, China would not intervene militarily?

[erupt]

So let me get this straight, you sympathize with hypothetical characters in your scary campfire story, but not real people because they have been sufficiently demonized in your eyes?

And you don't see any fundamental problem with this line of reasoning?

These people and their families really exist. Even though the examples you mentioned were right-wing religious groups, I still think it is disgusting what the ATF did.

Why can't you admit what the upper echelon in North Korea does is reactionary and in no way socialistic? Your perception is much more of a "campfire story" than mine.

Or do you think that North Korea families aren't persecuted for their family members?

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Or do you think that North Korea families aren't persecuted for their family members?

Where is the evidence for that?

We know China executes people for corruption, for example. They openly admit so. Likewise with Iran and gay people. But where are the reliable reports about families being persecuted for the actions of one of their members? All I can think of are emigre scare stories.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

[QUOTE=Prometeo liberado;2722990]Like Ive posted again and again, this about starting a discussion as to what the left would do if war were imminent.

Actually, the thread seems to be about a UN report published this week that has documented some grave crimes against humanity committed by the North Korean regime.


You think to much of yourself. Stop telling everyone your 100% against imperialism. Sounds like your selling something. We get it.

It was a specific response to you randomly bringing up Iraq and Afghanistan.


As I assumed this thread has derailed into who hates the DPRK more.

It has nothing to do with hating North Korea. None of us are racists (i'd hope), so presumably we don't 'hate the DPRK'. The issue is that some people in this thread still have to come to terms with the fact that the North Korean regime is the subject of some quite strong evidence that it has committed some horrendous crimes, and that its nominal use of socialist rhetoric and red flags does not make it a centre of anti-imperialism or anything similar.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

To be honest I can't think of a state on the planet that isn't willing to punish family members to get back at people or for collective punishment purposes, so believing North Korea alone is above such things is pretty naive.

I think most of what defectors say is probably true, a lot of it can be backed up with video/satellite evidence. It's just the baby related crimes that always strike me as unbelievable as they always seem to end up being bullshit after the conflict is over and reporters can actually get in.

[Prometeo liberado]

Actually, the thread seems to be about a UN report published this week that has documented some grave crimes against humanity committed by the North Korean regime.

If you read what I wrote when I posted the article I was begging the question as to how the left would respond in to what may be the precursor to war.


It was a specific response to you randomly bringing up Iraq and Afghanistan.
Calling it random does not make it so, just adds to more uncalled for hyperbole. I merely presented a valid precedent.


None of us are racists (i'd hope), so presumably we don't 'hate the DPRK'.
Assuming your feelings on the DPRK, they are not in fact representative of the people. Therefore one could "hate" the DPRK while being in solidarity with its people. Leave the race card lone.

Hmm..I'm still looking for the part where I defend the DPRK?

[Leftsolidarity]

If anyone cares: (unlikely but whatever)

North Korea says U.N. rights report based on 'faked' material

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/17/us-korea-north-un-rejection-idUSBREA1G0IG20140217

(Reuters) - North Korea said on Monday a United Nations report on its human rights record due to be issued later in the day was based on material faked by hostile forces backed by the United States, the European Union and Japan.

A statement sent to Reuters from the Communist state's diplomatic mission in Geneva said that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea "categorically and totally rejects the report," drawn up by a three-member Commission of Inquiry.

The text of the report was due to be released in Geneva at 1300 GMT.

The two-page North Korean statement, in English, said the report was an "instrument of a political plot aimed at sabotaging the socialist system" and defaming the country.

Rights violations listed in the document, forwarded to Pyongyang for comment by U.N. officials several weeks ago, "do not exist in our country," the statement declared.

And it denounced the Commission as "a marionette running here and there in order to represent the ill-minded purposes of the string-pullers, such as the United States, Japan and the member states of the EU."

The Commission was set up by the U.N. Human Rights Council a year ago at the request of the European Union, the United States and Japan under a resolution adopted by consensus at the 47-member state forum.

The independent panel is chaired by jurists from Australia, Indonesia and Serbia. It was barred from North Korea and took evidence from refugees and defectors who have fled.

The North Korean statement suggested the creation of the Commission and the report itself were part of an effort to change the country's current system of government under the cover of human rights concerns.

North Korea would "continue to strongly respond to the end to any attempt of regime-change and pressure under the pretext of 'human rights protection'," it said.

(Reporting by Stephanie Nebehay, writing by Tom Miles, editing by Robert Evans and Jon Boyle)

And I wanted to repost something a friend said:

"The UN report issued against DPRK today, and receiving endless press is completely absurd. It is based on a bunch of tribunals held in South Korea, the United States, and Japan. No actual investigation in DPRK took place. -- The UN just convened a three big anti-DPRK propaganda rallies, and then reported what people said as "results" of "research.""

[A Psychological Symphony]

It may be little of the topic. I have meet yesterday in bar somebody whom been in North Korea, he told me is nothing about Socialism there, is a police state, so how we are so good about North Korea?

As reliable as this sounds I think I'm going to need a little more convincing...


I don't think anybody here is arguing that the DPRK is socialist, but instead that the "Anti-DPRK" crowd is basing its hate solely on the reports of the enemies of the DPRK.

[BolshevikOG]

The DPRK question is incredibly complex, and requires a lot more intensive research than just for or against.
It's often forgotten that the country's basically been a large military camp, given that the Korean War still hasn't officially come to a close. However, what's interesting is that it only seems to be the North, who are, in fact, the only ones actually calling for peace talks.
There is also objective evidence, which has been outlined by the same U.N. report, that the DPRK's landscape simply isn't arable enough to feed its somewhat 20-25 million population. In fact, "Only about 18 percent of the total landmass, or approximately 2.2 million hectares, is arable; the major portion of the country is rugged mountain terrain."[1]

This is just one reasoning of many. I do not realistically support the DPRK given that, personally, I do not feel that it is the most shining example of socialism.

[1]Source: Country Studies - North Korea

[Orange Juche]

I have no idea if it is a nice place or a bad place. I don't think you do either.

This "pretending North Korea might not actually be that bad when, if you're actually reasonable, it's obviously a miserable hellhole" nonsense is seriously absurd. I mean, beyond 9/11 truther tinfoil hat absurd. There's Korea's version of a holocaust going on there.

We all have a pretty damn good idea what kind of place it is.

[westtotheleft]

North Korea's concentration camps are primarily labour camps, there are very few death camps. I would take it to say that America has Death Row, does this not count as a death camp?

Nobody has the bollocks to invade the DPRK, Beijing would throw a hissy fit and then who knows what.

[Broviet Union]

Well, as long as MOST of them aren't death camps, I can't see a problem.

[Garbageday]

Eastern capitalists vs western capitalists

Oh god it ever gets old.

[DaringMehring]

This "pretending North Korea might not actually be that bad when, if you're actually reasonable, it's obviously a miserable hellhole" nonsense is seriously absurd. I mean, beyond 9/11 truther tinfoil hat absurd. There's Korea's version of a holocaust going on there.

We all have a pretty damn good idea what kind of place it is.

So what? Support the Imperialist war machine bathing the country in blood with "regime change"?

We make a revolution first in our countries, then it would be worth considering how we intervene in the rest of the globe, because there would be the potential of actual liberation.

Fight the class struggle where you can, the first rule is to always oppose your "own" bourgeoisie -- because they are the ones you are in the best position to bring down! So nobody in the USA who is actually a revolutionary should support the American bourgeoisie's push to attack Korea.

[aristos]

So nobody in the USA who is actually a revolutionary should support the American bourgeoisie's push to attack Korea.

Especialy since the American bourgeoisie will certainly not do away with the bourgeoisie in the DPRK but replace it with its own.

[Comrade Raymund]

I think that they are not on the brink of war. They are just terrorising America and they unfortunately aren't ready for a war. They still are using 60s fighter jets, and China doesn't want North Korea enter a war, as this would cause trouble for them. But they are increasing on man power (and women power) and is starting to improve the country... slowly...

[Leftsolidarity]

I think that they are not on the brink of war. They are just terrorising America and they unfortunately aren't ready for a war. They still are using 60s fighter jets, and China doesn't want North Korea enter a war, as this would cause trouble for them. But they are increasing on man power (and women power) and is starting to improve the country... slowly...

Umm what? Your whole post is wrong but the bolded section even more so. The DPRK has done EVERYTHING in its power other than letting the puppet-fascist South take over the North to make peace and normalize relations. This is well documented and to say otherwise is either complete ignorance or outright deception.

[RedCornFlakes]

The US Army is one the strongest in the world. North Koreans are highly nationalistic and will make an attempt to fight the US army, but will loose inevitabely. Especially considering that only their army has guns, and their army is considerably small along with their population. Not to mention the technology of the US far surpasses that of the DPRK.

Most Americans are becoming more cynical towards the US Government so they won't randomly join the army and be like "muh freedom, muh liberty, muh twin towers" like on 9/11. I'm pretty sure most people from the left and right alike already know that 9/11 was an inside job.

The US Govt. doesn't even have to send in troops anymore, they have drones and sh*t like that. Not to mention they would probably just arm the South Korean army to do the invasion for them. Much less heat on the US's record.

I'm surpised the US hasn't invaded Iran yet, that idea has been hyped up for ages now.

[ckaihatsu]

http://www.liberationnews.org/wests-favorite-north-korean-defector-lied-un/


West’s favorite North Korean defector lied to UN

By John Beacham

Feb 02, 2015


http://www.liberationnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/10446977385_ebc10aeedd_k-300x199.jpg
Liar to liar. In 2013, Shin Dong-hyuk went on a tour to help build a campaign against the DPRK. He stopped at the George Bush Institute in order to add his falsified stories to Bush's "Freedom Collection."


Shin Dong-hyuk, the West’s most celebrated North Korean defector, has been caught lying to the United Nations, Human Rights Watch and the world.

According to his own statements, he purposefully falsified the main chronological and geographical aspects of his life story—a fantastic story of inhuman “gulags” in North Korea that has been broadcast all over the world as the central argument that Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, in the words of the UN’s Commission of Inquiry on North Korea, “Is the worst human rights violator on the planet.”

This is a very significant development. Shin Dong-hyuk is literally the global voice and face of the human rights campaign that Western countries are waging against the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea—a campaign that is part of a wider strategy to overthrow the government and bring all of Korea under U.S. neo-colonial control.

The exposure of Shin Dong-hyuk’s falsehoods should bring an immediate end to the entire shoddy “human rights” campaign against North Korea.

The United Nations has referred the DPRK to the International Criminal Court for “Crimes Against Humanity” solely on the basis of witness testimony and some fuzzy satellite pictures. Shin Dong-hyuk was literally “Witness #1” at the UN’s Commission of Inquiry on North Korea. This commission’s findings led to the proposed ICC charges.

Shin Dong-hyuk’s lies have been amplified a million-fold by the United Nations, Human Rights Watch, 60 Minutes, the New York Times, CNN, Amnesty International and many, many, many others. His “life-story” was turned into a best-selling book, “Escape from Camp 14: One Man’s Remarkable Journey from North Korea to Freedom in the West.” The book has been translated into 27 languages.

According to Blaine Harden, the author: “On Friday, Jan. 16, I learned that Shin Dong-hyuk, the North Korean prison camp survivor who is the subject of ‘Escape from Camp 14,’ had told friends an account of his life that differed substantially from my book.”

Shin Dong-hyuk’s sensational stories of torture and cruelty in the DPRK started to unravel late last year when his father spoke on North Korean television claiming that Shin Dong-hyuk had never been in a prison-camp at all.

End the phony human rights campaign against North Korea

In making their case against North Korea, the UN and HRW have both stated forcefully and repeatedly that Shin Dong-hyuk is “The single strongest voice on the atrocities taking place in North Korea.” Seriously?

Everyone should be drawing the same conclusions here: If the number one spokesperson, a defector who has been feted around the world and given human rights awards from the UN, HRW and many others, is lying, then how much credence should we give any of the testimony made before the UN’s Commission of Inquiry on North Korea? My answer: not a lot, if any. In fact, the UN has made little to no attempt to verify the accuracy of any of the witnesses against the DPRK.

Why should we trust the commission at all, especially when you consider that the human rights campaign against the DPRK is completely inseparable from the U.S. strategy to bring the country to its knees and move the U.S. military, already 27,000 strong in South Korea, to the very doorstep of China?

The falsehoods of Shin Dong-hyuk should bring to mind the numerous occasions when the United States and the West have used lies, racist demonization campaigns and phony human rights justifications to provide cover for their imperialist agenda of dominating the world’s peoples, markets and resources.

The people of the world must demand an immediate end to all Western campaigns to seize Korea for the benefit of Wall Street, including the hollow ICC case against the DPRK.

Korea, North korea, Shin Dong-hyuk, UN

JOHN BEACHAM

John Beacham is a community college teacher, union member and anti-war organizer based in Chicago. He is running for alderman in the 49th ward.

[Creative Destruction]

Shin Dong-hyuk’s sensational stories of torture and cruelty in the DPRK started to unravel late last year when his father spoke on North Korean television claiming that Shin Dong-hyuk had never been in a prison-camp at all.

this doesn't really signal an "unraveling," given that it is from DPRK's unreliable news source. the article is heavy on accusations and very light on actual counter-evidence to support its point of view. is there an official statement from the book's author that details where the refugee's account differs from what is in his book?

eta. fwiw, this is partially what annoys me about leftist rags. the writing itself is terrible. the sourcing is off. there's no actual, viable argument presented. it's a far cry from, for example, the reportage in old socialist papers -- where there was actual reporting coupled with calls to action, or actual investigations of the subject. it's awful nowadays.

[ckaihatsu]

this doesn't really signal an "unraveling," given that it is from DPRK's unreliable news source. the article is heavy on accusations and very light on actual counter-evidence to support its point of view. is there an official statement from the book's author that details where the refugee's account differs from what is in his book?

eta. fwiw, this is partially what annoys me about leftist rags. the writing itself is terrible. the sourcing is off. there's no actual, viable argument presented. it's a far cry from, for example, the reportage in old socialist papers -- where there was actual reporting coupled with calls to action, or actual investigations of the subject. it's awful.


Inquire with the article's author, I would say.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Why post it if you aren't willing to defend it? You bumped a year old thread for it so you obviously consider it important.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

"A person lied so North Korea is probably actually a cool place to live after all, by the way vote for me plz" yeah this is a shit article

[ckaihatsu]

Why post it if you aren't willing to defend it? You bumped a year old thread for it so you obviously consider it important.


Okay, I defend it.

Here's the source:





“Escape from Camp 14: One Man’s Remarkable Journey from North Korea to Freedom in the West.” The book has been translated into 27 languages.

According to Blaine Harden, the author: “On Friday, Jan. 16, I learned that Shin Dong-hyuk, the North Korean prison camp survivor who is the subject of ‘Escape from Camp 14,’ had told friends an account of his life that differed substantially from my book.”

Shin Dong-hyuk’s sensational stories of torture and cruelty in the DPRK started to unravel late last year when his father spoke on North Korean television claiming that Shin Dong-hyuk had never been in a prison-camp at all.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Oh wow super. Looking into the actual content of what changed in the story reveals that executions took place at camp y instead of camp x and he was tortured at the age of 20 instead of 13 and other timeline shit. That doesn't make him believable but your article implies that he recanted the entire story and that it somehow proves that any claims about human rights abuses in north korea are baseless and that's idiotic. Who would publish such dogshit? Oh its the fucking psl, color me shocked.

[ckaihatsu]

Oh wow super. Looking into the actual content of what changed in the story reveals that executions took place at camp y instead of camp x


Hmmmmm, for some reason you're relying solely on hyperbole and vitriol for your attacks, instead of sticking to the facts / content of the subject-matter....





Shin Dong-hyuk’s sensational stories of torture and cruelty in the DPRK started to unravel late last year when his father spoke on North Korean television claiming that Shin Dong-hyuk had never been in a prison-camp at all.


The meaningful part here is on 'never...at all' -- so it's *not* merely superficial corrections.





and he was tortured at the age of 20 instead of 13 and other timeline shit.


If he had never been in a prison camp then how could he have been tortured *at all* -- ?





That doesn't make him believable but your article implies that he recanted the entire story and that it somehow proves that any claims about human rights abuses in north korea are baseless and that's idiotic. Who would publish such dogshit? Oh its the fucking psl, color me shocked.


It invalidates much, regarding the U.S.-nationalist politics around it.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Ah yes the facts as reported by north korean television, I guess I hadn't considered that. Good point.

[Creative Destruction]

Hmmmmm, for some reason you're relying solely on hyperbole and vitriol for your attacks, instead of sticking to the facts / content of the subject-matter....

Wait. You haven't actually presented "facts." Nothing meaningful, anyway. The content of the subject matter has already been addressed and you have not mounted a defense of it. Restating your position isn't evidence for your position.


The meaningful part here is on 'never...at all' -- so it's *not* merely superficial corrections.

Why are you failing to note that the source of this "interview" came from DPRK state-TV? Are you going to seriously suggest that the KCNA is a source that can be trusted? Man, I would love to see you make that argument. Get to it.


If he had never been in a prison camp then how could he have been tortured *at all* -- ?

It hasn't actually been established that he wasn't at a prison camp. As EG pointed out, the problem was with timelines, not whether he was there.

Of course, he may be lying completely. It wouldn't surprise me. It wouldn't surprise me, either, if he was actually in those camps. The issue here is that you posted an article that assumes it has blown this entire thing wide open and completely exposed a fraud, when it hasn't even gotten near doing any such thing. It makes it claims based on a second-hand reporting of what the guy's dad said on North Korean state media (he couldn't at least have posted the link to this interview?) and a quick sentence by the author of this book about Shin, that doesn't actually go into detail as to what the discrepancies were or if they were actually that detrimental to his story.

If this was high school journalism class, and I was the teacher, I would have flunked this guy in two seconds.


It invalidates much, regarding the U.S.-nationalist politics around it.

This is just word salad. Doesn't mean anything.

[ckaihatsu]

Ah yes the facts as reported by north korean television, I guess I hadn't considered that. Good point.


You seem to have a vested interest in the U.S. line on North Korea, or else you're just doing petty baseless bickering for the sport of it.

What would it matter *where* or *what media* was used to convey Shin Dong-hyuk's father's message that Shin had never been in a prison camp -- ?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

You seem to have a vested interest in the U.S. line on North Korea, or else you're just doing petty baseless bickering for the sport of it.

What would it matter *where* or *what media* was used to convey Shin Dong-hyuk's father's message that Shin had never been in a prison camp -- ?

What's the 'us line on north korea'?

[Creative Destruction]

What would it matter *where* or *what media* was used to convey Shin Dong-hyuk's father's message that Shin had never been in a prison camp -- ?

dude, really? i can't believe you're asking this in a serious way.

[ckaihatsu]

Wait. You haven't actually presented "facts." Nothing meaningful, anyway. The content of the subject matter has already been addressed and you have not mounted a defense of it. Restating your position isn't evidence for your position.


Yeah, the facts / content / subject matter are in the article at post #104. What about it?





Why are you failing to note that the source of this "interview" came from DPRK state-TV? Are you going to seriously suggest that the KCNA is a source that can be trusted? Man, I would love to see you make that argument. Get to it.


Okay, I'll counter that assertion by asserting that DPRK state TV is able to convey Shin Dong-hyuk's father's message, verbatim.





It hasn't actually been established that he wasn't at a prison camp.


It's according to his father -- that's the source.





As EG pointed out, the problem was with timelines, not whether he was there.


Neither you or EGTFAA are citing any source for this assertion regarding 'timelines'.





Of course, he may be lying completely. It wouldn't surprise me. It wouldn't surprise me, either, if he was actually in those camps. The issue here is that you posted an article that assumes it has blown this entire thing wide open and completely exposed a fraud, when it hasn't even gotten near doing any such thing.


All of the information in the article is from particular sources, so either one finds credibility in those sources, or one doesn't.





It invalidates much, regarding the U.S.-nationalist politics around it.





This is just word salad. Doesn't mean anything.


It means that the U.S. line / position on North Korea is one of antagonism, to put it lightly -- any sources that invalidate U.S.-backed claims are effectively countering the U.S.-nationalist position of opposing North Korea.

[ckaihatsu]

dude, really? i can't believe you're asking this in a serious way.


Dude. Get into it. It just happened.





What's the 'us line on north korea'?


See post #117.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Google that quote from the article you posted as a reference, there's a cnn article that details the whole thing

[Creative Destruction]

Yeah, the facts / content / subject matter are in the article at post #104. What about it?

The article in post #104 is short on all of those things, which is the point.


Okay, I'll counter that assertion by asserting that DPRK state TV is able to convey Shin Dong-hyuk's father's message, verbatim.

Where? First, what you have in the article is a second-hand reporting of what he said on KCNA. Second, you still haven't dealt with the fact that KCNA isn't actually a reputable source.


It's according to his father -- that's the source.

It's his father according to the KCNA. That's not even to address the fact that we don't know what was actually said, since the article never bothered to link or substantially source the quote. He did a weak tea paraphrase of it. That is not even to address the fact that North Korea does have an uncomplicated record of intimidating people, censorship and writing stories to make their state look good or blameless.


Neither you or EGTFAA are citing any source for this assertion regarding 'timelines'.

True, but the thing is, it's not really on us to source the assertion in the first place. I'll leave EGTFAA to give a link if he wants to, but you (as the defender of this article) need to provide some evidence or a link or something to his statement, to ensure that it's an accurate portrayal of what it implies in the article.


All of the information in the article is from particular sources, so either one finds credibility in those sources, or one doesn't.

Yeah, the KCNA is decidedly not a credible source. That is pretty widely known and accepted among everyone except the most ardent, reactionary supporters of that near-fascist regime in North Korea. I don't think even China believes most of the shit that comes out of NK.


It means that the U.S. line / position on North Korea is one of antagonism, to put it lightly -- any sources that invalidate U.S.-backed claims are effectively countering the U.S.-nationalist position of opposing North Korea.

This is the problem with anti-imp politics. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's complete shit. Just because someone presents a counter-narrative to the dominant narrative does not mean that the counter-narrative is right or true (in a lower-case or upper-case sense.)

I don't know what this guy teaches in community college, but I really hope it's not journalism or polisci. It also points to the sore state of community colleges in this country if he's been hired on to teach in either of those fields.

[Creative Destruction]

Dude. Get into it. It just happened.

yeah, i'm still in disbelief that someone actually asked that question in a serious manner. you seem pretty earnest otherwise, so i'm going to assume that you're being a complete moron and not a troll.

do you believe people when they tell you that they have a bridge to sell you, too?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Lets see what else is in the news today, did you guys know that the Hasong Tire Factory increased production by 7 times and that their products last twice as long as foreign imports?

[Creative Destruction]

The Nigerian National Committee for the Study of Kimilsungism-Kimjongilism also posted a series of articles on their website highlighting how FUCKING AWESOME Kim Jong Il was.

lol (http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2015/201502/news11/20150211-04ee.html)

[ckaihatsu]

Google that quote from the article you posted as a reference, there's a cnn article that details the whole thing


Go right ahead.





The article in post #104 is short on all of those things, which is the point.


Then just make whatever specific point you want to about the article since that's what you're responding to.





Okay, I'll counter that assertion by asserting that DPRK state TV is able to convey Shin Dong-hyuk's father's message, verbatim.





Where? First, what you have in the article is a second-hand reporting of what he said on KCNA.


That's a common and commonly accepted practice in journalism.





Second, you still haven't dealt with the fact that KCNA isn't actually a reputable source.


It's certainly sufficient for getting out the father's basic message that his son Shin Dong-hyuk had never been in a prison camp.





It's his father according to the KCNA. That's not even to address the fact that we don't know what was actually said, since the article never bothered to link or substantially source the quote. He did a weak tea paraphrase of it. That is not even to address the fact that North Korea does have an uncomplicated record of intimidating people, censorship and writing stories to make their state look good or blameless.


Okay, noted. It would be better if the father could speak to *several* news outlets, but Shin's account is also being questioned by the book's author Blaine Harden.


---





Neither you or EGTFAA are citing any source for this assertion regarding 'timelines'.





True, but the thing is, it's not really on us to source the assertion in the first place. I'll leave EGTFAA to give a link if he wants to, but you (as the defender of this article) need to provide some evidence or a link or something to his statement, to ensure that it's an accurate portrayal of what it implies in the article.


Again, this sub-issue is about purported 'timelines', which have not been sourced.





Yeah, the KCNA is decidedly not a credible source. That is pretty widely known and accepted among everyone except the most ardent, reactionary supporters of that near-fascist regime in North Korea. I don't think even China believes most of the shit that comes out of NK.


I'm not trying to defend the KCNA as a paragon of unbiased reporting -- rather there are serious underminings of Shin's published account of his own life, regarding being held in a prison camp and being tortured by North Korea.


---





It means that the U.S. line / position on North Korea is one of antagonism, to put it lightly -- any sources that invalidate U.S.-backed claims are effectively countering the U.S.-nationalist position of opposing North Korea.





This is the problem with anti-imp politics. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.


I'm not waving any flags here for North Korea. You're over-generalizing.





It's complete shit. Just because someone presents a counter-narrative to the dominant narrative does not mean that the counter-narrative is right or true (in a lower-case or upper-case sense.)


Attempting to make sense of the world is what we all do, every day.





I don't know what this guy teaches in community college, but I really hope it's not journalism or polisci. It also points to the sore state of community colleges in this country if he's been hired on to teach in either of those fields.




yeah, i'm still in disbelief that someone actually asked that question in a serious manner. you seem pretty earnest otherwise, so i'm going to assume that you're being a complete moron and not a troll.

do you believe people when they tell you that they have a bridge to sell you, too?


Now you're blindly lashing out with unwarranted hostility, based on your previous over-generalization. Reconsider.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Google is hard http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/18/asia/north-korea-defector-changes-story/