Castro and Franco

[freecommunist]

interesting for those that think Cuba is some kind of socialist utopia :laugh:

http://laht.com/article.asp?CategoryId=14510&ArticleId=325014

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Interestingly enough, Castro shares my sentiments in regards to the OP...

http://laht.com/cuba/castrobored2005.jpg

But seriously, why would I be inclined to listen to the accounts of alleged Spainish-Cuban relations from the Minister of Information and Tourism aka Spain's 'most prestigious' tour guide? This seems akin to interviewing Franco's personal chef about Spain's relations with the SU or the Minister of Silly Walks on the impact of Francoist architecture. I am very skeptical about the claims presented. I mean, what real sources do they have?

[PhoenixAsh]

Yup. Is true. Spain and Cuba had close economic and diplomatic ties in those days.

It was even suggested that the US secretly used Spain as a way to gain information on Cuba while openly being very upset about the relationship. Anyways. Franco refused to cave on the embargo and continued giving economic aid (trade) to Cuba.


Here is some obscure article. But there are also some books that mention it.


https://dspace.wul.waseda.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2065/32431/1/WasedaGlobalForum_05_Hosoda.pdf

[motion denied]

I'm very skeptical too.

This is a gem though:


Gen. Manuel Fernandez Monzon, member of the counterespionage department of the Francoist regime's secret services, added that "the Cuban revolutionaries were people with money, rich kids, and, between that and the uniforms, the truth is they were well liked."The revolution (or coup whatever you call it) succeeded thanks to a handful of petite-bourgeois nationalists :rolleyes:

They were about 40.000 when Havana fell. Let's ignore general strikes too. I'm not the biggest Cuban enthusiast btw.

[PhoenixAsh]

By the way. Franco also liked Mao and Ho Chi Minh. Just so you know.

[DDR]

But seriously, why would I be inclined to listen to the accounts of alleged Spainish-Cuban relations from the Minister of Information and Tourism aka Spain's 'most prestigious' tour guide? This seems akin to interviewing Franco's personal chef about Spain's relations with the SU or the Minister of Silly Walks on the impact of Francoist architecture. I am very skeptical about the claims presented. I mean, what real sources do they have?

Fraga wasn't the most prestigious spanish tour guide. He has signed lots of death sentencies, he was responsible for the events of 3rd of March in 76, etc.

But I agree that most that it's presented in that text is bollocks, the only conection between Castro and paquito is that both are Galicians.


By the way. Franco also liked Mao and Ho Chi Minh. Just so you know.

Yeah, that's why Serrano Suñer called for a second Blue Division to fight in the Korean War on the imperialist side.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

On one hand, the Franquist regime had an unhealthy obsession with anything vaguely "Hispanic". Even the Republican general Lister did not escape oblique praise, as I recall it.

On the other hand, Castro was a nationalist - a member of the Partido Ortodoxo - long before he was any sort of communist - in fact he had his Damascus experience precisely when it became apparent that the Soviet Union was likely to sponsor Cuba. Odd, that.

[Red Intellectual]

Castro had, and still has, ties with a great amount of foreign leaders that share one single thing with the Cuban goverment: opposition to the US. They might be ideologically different, but so survive international US influence they HAVE to band together, and as such it's not that surprising that Castro, who was always less a communist and more a socialist, sought the alliance of fascist Franco Spain.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Castro had, and still has, ties with a great amount of foreign leaders that share one single thing with the Cuban goverment: opposition to the US. They might be ideologically different, but so survive international US influence they HAVE to band together, and as such it's not that surprising that Castro, who was always less a communist and more a socialist, sought the alliance of fascist Franco Spain.

Except Franquist Spain was an ally of the US.

Of course, in conditions of blockade, it was reasonable for the Cuban government to accept aid from any source, as long as there were no strings attached. But to suggest that Castro should have actively sought an alliance with fascists - do you think leftists should ever ally with fascists?

[Prometeo liberado]

This stuff has been floating around for some time. The way I see it Castro is the Bill Clinton of socialism. You just never know what's in that head.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I'm very skeptical too.

This is a gem though:

The revolution (or coup whatever you call it) succeeded thanks to a handful of petite-bourgeois nationalists :rolleyes:

They were about 40.000 when Havana fell. Let's ignore general strikes too. I'm not the biggest Cuban enthusiast btw.

But they were petty-bourgeois nationalists. Castro himself said that they were idealists and ultra-leftists before realizing the realities of being in power. It wasn't until the PSP and proletarian elements in the July 26th movement increasingly made contact with the rebels and mobilized organized labor with socialist slogans, that the Castroist rebels were driven to the side of socialist dictatorship versus capitalist "democracy".

[motion denied]

But they were petty-bourgeois nationalists. Castro himself said that they were idealists and ultra-leftists before realizing the realities of being in power. It wasn't until the PSP and proletarian elements in the July 26th movement increasingly made contact with the rebels and mobilized organized labor with socialist slogans, that the Castroist rebels were driven to the side of socialist dictatorship versus capitalist "democracy".

That's what I meant.

What I dispute is that a handful of said nationalists were the whole of the revolutionaries. Or were the striking workers 'rich kids with money'?

[Red Intellectual]

Of course, in conditions of blockade, it was reasonable for the Cuban government to accept aid from any source, as long as there were no strings attached.

This exactly.



But to suggest that Castro should have actively sought an alliance with fascists - do you think leftists should ever ally with fascists?

If they have no other choice for survival, I do think it might be a possibility. Not saying it's a great choice but Castro certainly had solid reasons, as explained above.

During the Revolution it was Che Guevara and Raúl Castro who were extremely radical Marxists, Fidel less so. Actually, Fidel not at all. But that's still 66.6% of the July 26 top leadership. It's Raúl and Che's convictions, their attempts at establishing connections with the Partido Socialista Popular and the constant propaganda that sketched the July 26 movement as 'communist' were what drove Fidel to adopt socialism.

[PhoenixAsh]

Yeah, that's why Serrano Suñer called for a second Blue Division to fight in the Korean War on the imperialist side.

I don't see how that has anything to do with who Franco admired.

[PhoenixAsh]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=861&dat=19920802&id=GUhSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ezYNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4780,5556872

[blake 3:17]

Thanks to the OP -- Good to learn something new every day!

& thanks for many of the other comments in this thread.

[PhoenixAsh]

Has anybody got an objective reference for the supposed 9 days of mourning in Cuba for Franco in 1969?

Most references I found are 2006 and later or link to Cuban refugee sites.

[RedSonRising]

My illusions of Cuba as a socialist utopia have been violently ripped from my eyes. How could you Fidel, how could you?

This well-sourced and unbiased wealth of information detailing the inseparable fusion of interests between the two now completely erases the working class/peasant nature of the Cuban Revolution and the gains made as a result. Dammit Franco, why.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Fraga wasn't the most prestigious spanish tour guide. He has signed lots of death sentencies, he was responsible for the events of 3rd of March in 76, etc.

But I agree that most that it's presented in that text is bollocks, the only conection between Castro and paquito is that both are Galicians.

I was just being facetious.


Has anybody got an objective reference for the supposed 9 days of mourning in Cuba for Franco in 1969?

Most references I found are 2006 and later or link to Cuban refugee sites.

I want to highlight and pay special attention to these 'references.' Outside of the comments and 2 links contained within the thread I have found zilch, nada, nichego, nothing. I cant seem to find any objective data concerning the topic other than copy-paste versions of the OP on diff sites, and nothing at all going into any detail or depth aboot Fidel and Francos secret love afair. Why is this? Illuminati perhaps?

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

If they have no other choice for survival, I do think it might be a possibility. Not saying it's a great choice but Castro certainly had solid reasons, as explained above.

But Castro, for all his faults, never allied with Franco - there were no Cuban troops in Basque lands fighting against the ETA for example. I think it is highly myopic to pretend that the United States are the only or the chief danger to the proletariat, in every region of the world and in every situation, and to ally oneself with reactionaries, religious extremists and fascists on that basis.


During the Revolution it was Che Guevara and Raúl Castro who were extremely radical Marxists, Fidel less so. Actually, Fidel not at all. But that's still 66.6% of the July 26 top leadership. It's Raúl and Che's convictions, their attempts at establishing connections with the Partido Socialista Popular and the constant propaganda that sketched the July 26 movement as 'communist' were what drove Fidel to adopt socialism.

Is that really the case, though? As far as I know, most of the leaders of the M-26-7 movement participated in the attack on Moncada Barracks, organized by members of the youth branch of the nationalist, anti-corruption, anti-Batista Partido Ortodoxo. The PSP-affiliated Raúl Castro was the only exception I am familiar with - people like Juan Bosque and Ramiro Valdés were also members of the PPC (Part. Ortodoxo).

The PSP itself was one hell of an odd organization, backing the first government of Batista and supporting his designated successor.

Of course, this doesn't somehow negate the very real achievements of the Cuban revolution. But I think it shows that the Cuban leadership can be, objectively, called petit-bourgeois, just like e.g. the Ethiopian Derg-COPWE-WPE leadership.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

As for Paco Rano and Ho Chi Minh, the claim that the former sympathized with the latter seems to be based on things like a letter from Franco to the American government, praising Ho as a "patriot who can't stand the destruction of his country".

This, of course, ignores that Franco was writing to the notorious butchers of the Vietnamese, offering them friendly advice on how to stop the spread of Chinese influence.

I tend to be suspicious of these claims - they mostly seem to be used as a political tool by the extremely sectarian ("Look, fascists praising Stalinists!"), or by confused "third positionist" fascists ("Look you guys, we're leftists too!").